Dear Corner Office

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Michele: Hello, everybody, it is so great to be here with you today.
I don’t know about you, but it’s been a very busy week. But I’m extremely happy to have with us the founder of a company called story boat. And I want to welcome Nassim, Abdi, with us today. How are you doing?Nassim:Hi, good morning. Michelle, thank you so much for having me on your show. And I’m doing good as much as you could stay positive and good. Right? And, yeah.Michele: So you’re still in the midst of COVID-19, um, across the world, actually, not just here in the US. But it is we’re still talking to various experts who are in the diversity and inclusion space. And I really want to talk to the scene because she is truly doing something special and different with story bolt. So can you tell us a bit about what a story bolt in and just a little at first, and the inspiration behind it?Nassim:Absolutely, absolutely show. So storyboard is a platform that brings courageous conversations to organizations by connecting employees and basically organizations who are passionate about diversity, equity and inclusion, to professional storytellers, which are documentary filmmakers and their short stories. And not only screening and watching their films, but also having conversations with them q&a conversations life become. So we are a marketplace that connects these two sides of market organizations are passionate about the movie, and documentary filmmakers and then shorts, authentic stories.Michele: Now, for me, I was like, when we originally talked about this, I was like, I don’t understand is called story bolts.
So hey, Monica, so I’ll put it in the chat.
So story bolt.com. And for me what you’re saying
courageous conversations, talking about diversity inclusion.
filmmakers never comes together. Like, what do you mean bringing those courageous conversations? And, and having, um, Bill, how does that work? Like, what does that look like? Because I am really intrigued by those two things marry together.Nassim:Yeah, yeah, that’s a that’s a great question. Sure. So, uh, well, let me first say like the name storyboards be chosen depicted, because it’s just like a lightning bolt. stories can create that
inspiration ignite to dig into a topic. That is very important. When you hear stories, your human’s brain is wired, to understand stories better than anything else, right. So when you have a short documentary that has story of someone, and I will give you an example.
They have more than 3000 short documentaries from hundreds of countries around the world. And the fascinating thing about these films is they’re all stories and personal stories, either of the filmmaker that was so passionate to these who decided to make a short documentary or someone else that he or she was passionate about to share that story there.
So a short documentary, for example, about topic of LGBTQ and the challenges and or stories that people at workplace
faced with Vic in that community. And when you have a short documentary that tells someone’s story about
this specific topic, and then you can talk with the filmmaker who has hours of behind the camera stories. It creates a powerful moment, it creates an I would say magical moment, that safe environment that everybody can start talking about that topic.Michele: Love it. I love it. So you told us a bit about storyboard and how it works, how it marries to filmmaking
and inspiration, but how does it work like, is it I’m having an issue in the workplace?
As an employee, do I come to storyboard? Or am I DNI, diversity inclusion practitioner or director? And I want to talk about different parts of intersectionality. Whether it’s for women, people of color, LGBTQ, like how who, who is coming to storyboard calm? And what should they expect?Nassim:another great question. So we do work, as he explained with director of diversity and inclusion, because most of the time, they see that the intersectionality, among all different topics related to the AI. And we do have all different diverse series of films on different topics, which is makes sense a lot if you have these sessions throughout the year and have these conversations ongoing.
But we do also receive requests from employee resource groups, which are specifically, for example, focused on women at workplace or veterans or minority groups, for any RG that are passionate about the rights of that group. They can come to our platform and
make a request and have a demo and pick their favorite topic.Michele: That is very good. This is actually a really, really great resource for a lot of er G’s.
As you said, especially for organizations starting out starting their er G’s, let me ask you,
for COVID-19, specifically, what are some films that you have already that you’ve worked on that are resources right now, that would be really helpful to employers, and, most importantly, for their employees, but take some of the heavy lifting off of DNI teams that are really inundated right now and trying to support their employees.Nassim:Absolutely. So even before COVID-19, when we started this platform, and in this model, we were taking the virtual approach, because we wanted to bring all unheard voices to these conversations.
And I can share with you how this all got started later. But basically, the idea is to have all these unheard voices to this conversations, which means we don’t, we should not have geographical boundaries on that. And we should not be limited by that. So the model that we had even before COVID-19 was a virtual model that they could book your screen. for employees, even remote employees could watch the documentary all together at the same time. Of course, different time zones sometimes make it like, difficult to have one specific time, they want a bit more than one time to watch the film. But having a live q&a with the filmmaker, no matter where that the filmmaker is geographically located. So we have filmmakers from India, Turkey, Japan, all different part of the word connecting, um, specifically after COVID-19 situation and be forced to be remote employees and directors who are trying still even harder now to
create the community feeling and the resiliency that is needed for this specific time that you’re all experiencing. We are having some specific collections. One that is coming up and is probably a really great one, which we are getting a lot of requests for is next month, month of May, which is mental health awareness. And it’s a perfect time to sort of check in with our community and make sure that you’re understanding conversations around mental health and the the stigma around mental health and specifically in this time of isolation, it’s really important to have that kind of conversation. So mental health, you have specific collection, then the month after is Pride Month LGBTQ
series there. So like short answer to your question is right now the directors can go to our platform, book a demo and
get exactly what they need for, for their organization for their community and they submit their requests of topics and you’ll have meetings with them and making sure that you meet exactly what they need and they can provide it there.Michele: Love it. Yeah, I think a while I know for many companies is no longer we aren’t focusing on those usual activities that we have planned is how do we support and we still need to continue to support those initiatives, those causes, because they are very important to our to employees, because it truly helps them. Good morning, everyone. So I love that that you have that available specifically for employers. Now, I want to go back to you, because we haven’t talked about you who you are, how did you get here? Because something that really struck me was how many countries you have films in So first, let’s talk about you where you’re originally from. How did you get up here in the US, because you start to have a southern accent like me, but not that Southern?Nassim:Yeah, I confuse everyone with my accent and how I look like so so many people start speaking Spanish with me. And all I know to say is no say, which makes it worse because they think that I know Spanish, because if you get most, I got this calling from many of my now friends that they first thought I’m from Mexico, and they are right, I’m probably look like
Mexicans a lot. And that shows how much you’re all connected. I’m originally from Iran, actually. And I’m Iranian American now. And I came to us in 2003 as a graduate students, and I got my PhD in international education, intersection with movement studies. And, and I was not in the field of platforms and companies and startups and that that field. But I was very much into the conversation around diversity, equity and inclusion from the very beginning. That was my field.
But then started as a faculty member, teaching at the universities,
to the idea of storyboard came to me when I was teaching you my class.
And I was teaching a talk about a topic that was very close to my heart.
It was impact of war on people in my transnational feminism class, and I was very passionate to engage my students with the topic because
it was very personal to me. Unfortunately, I grew up during the brutal war, and lost my fiancee due to the chemical attacks on Iran. So you can imagine when I try to talk about this topic, or teach about this topic, how much I want to engage my audience. And I had so many dreams that I was thinking, I’m going to share my personal stories, they’re going to get engaged, and they are going to want to learn more, we are going to talk about theories. And then they want to take action, they want to do something about it. And none of those happens. I didn’t even get proper eye contact with them. Probably because they couldn’t relate to my studies. They’ve never lived in a real war. So that day was very frustrating. And I went home. pretty sad. And I even thought maybe I should not teach maybe if I can’t teach about the most important topic of my life. What else can I teach about. And then I had an idea, I decided to use another experience that I had, which was I happen to be the leading actress of a film that was featured on Netflix, and was awarded in international film festivals, like
many small festival and many other places, not because of me because of the brilliant director. But the year that I came to us as a grad student, the year before it was on a tour in US and Europe, movie theaters. And then the year that I arrived here, it was on Netflix. So wherever I went, they want to have a screening and a q&a with me. And at first I was a little shy about it. But then I started really loving that because I found that film doesn’t magic creates a very safe environment to have a deep, engaging conversation. And honestly, I made my best friends through those Q and A’s. So I started thinking maybe I can use that experience in my class. And I showed them a short documentary about the issue. It was a perfect documentary made by by a documentarian in New York City. Anyway, that’s her on screen for video chats. And my students would gaze on the screen and ask brilliant questions and wanted to take action. So they were really passionate and my dream came through. It changed everything for them. And also for me, I decided to quit teaching and be the brilliant team that with barback, my co founder we created we started building this platform. Once theMichele: By the time that is that is definitely not the traditional anywhere close, I think, a traditional startup founders story, but it definitely has a passion and and driven experience behind it your why is definitely very, very powerful. So, as we continue going through COVID-19
what do you see some additional needs for a diversity and inclusion practitioners? Like, um, I know when we, when I first thought about putting together this virtual summit for diversity, equity and inclusion, it was specifically seeing the changes in the issues that were coming about from across the world. And this was March like so it was six weeks ago or more.
I know and it seems like a lifetime ago, but it’s only six weeks. exactly what’s in. So what are you seeing now that we we are six weeks further into COVID-19? Some digital ease from current or previous clients that they’re coming back to you for that summit? other employees have not thought about or started investigating on right now right now in their workplaces?Nassim:Yeah, absolutely. Great question shop. Yeah, our world is upside down and routine has changed. And there are
so many important things that we need to pay attention specifically in these remote communities that now we are having conversations around diversity and inclusion are even more important these days. And believe it or not, I was reading an article by Harvard Business Review that the companies who are going to be the successful ones out of this era of COVID-19 are those who are more diverse and more passionate about inclusivity. Because this is the time that you could see that even more than before how important it is to have different approaches different perspectives on board.
As we are making decisions in our teams, as we are considering the next important path with our
venture every company or specific team decision making. And if you don’t have that diversity of approaches onboard, it’s really hard to go
to the right direction.
This isolation also created another need of checking in with each other and making sure that we are understanding each other really well. Before it was like you’re in hallway and passing each other or having lunch together. And having all these different conversations, which could create that connection and
ally ship somehow in the workplace. Now, we don’t have that. So if we don’t intentionally create space for conversations, using all these innovative models that are out there,
it is really hard to continue with the situation. And we are getting requests on specifically of an ally ship is a topic that we created a collection curated series on that. And
next week, we are going to have a webinar to explain what we got for mental health and LGBTQ and
love to share that with the directors the idea first, and we’re adding to that based on requests we are getting from different companies out there. Michele: Yeah, I can definitely definitely see that need. And see and agree with the companies who are more diverse, are able to address the issues and understanding that because they understand the needs from a more well rounded group of employees who are coming for sharing and saying, hey, you need to look at this. And others are only focused, they’re only hearing one, one voice and or at least listening only to one voice. And that then can lead you to making very narrow decisions. So I’ll put out put it that way.
So as far as a story bolt and the resources definitely definitely everyone if you’re even if you’re not in DNI but your employer really is looking for a way to continue to support employee ease. This is a great resource that they can utilize to help
I’m address some DNI issues, especially as the workplaces have restructured for many of us and other places, is looking at what we’re calling now essential workers who are generally lower paid.
Frontline, meaning they are literally caught high contact, and what will that be as immediate impact to communities of color, as well as to the overall us like, what will that have for all of us in the long run? But definitely, definitely, what do you need to do, because that is still very stressful, they’re going to work more so because they have to, yeah, they have to pay their bills. And they really, really need to. So that is a whole other level of mental health and stress that I think employers have yet to really delve into, and that they’re going to see not only from their direct employees, but their entire families
that I foresee coming that hasn’t that isn’t really being addressed right now. The address on mental on mental health is distress we’re feeling right now. But what comes after this for for so many families and co workers is going to be important as well.Nassim:Absolutely. couldn’t say further. Okay.Michele: Well, Nassim, thank you so much for spending time with me today. I really, really enjoyed it.Nassim:Thank you so much for having me, Michelle. Thank you.Michele: Where can people reach you? How can they find you?Nassim:
Sure. Actually, LinkedIn is a great place that brings connections. And definitely any comments under this
broadcast that the link that you’re going to share on LinkedIn would be a perfect place to connect and my profile on LinkedIn
is exactly my name, Missy mathy, my email nessim
dot [email protected].
And our platform also, we are we are a team that is really working hard to reach out to anyone who needs
our service these days. And definitely if they submit their request to our platform.
The you’re going to be more than happy to help but my personal email messing up Appiah storyboard calm.Michele: Thank you so much for joining me today, everybody. I will be back tomorrow, just to you know, let you know what’s coming up with the the summit for diversity, equity inclusion during uncertain times. Because we have so many other DNI experts like in the scene, who are I’m going to interview and how much you can glean from each of them next week with this virtual summit.So everybody have a great week, and I will talk to you later.Thanks, Michelle. You’re welcome. Bye, everyone.

Michele: Welcome, everybody to another edition today we have Melanie, with us from breaker 28. And Melanie focuses on leadership leaders Creek ating, inclusive workplaces specifically for women of color. So I’m extremely excited to have us on here today. Melanie, how are you doing?Melanie: I’m doing well.Thank you for having me.Michele:
Melanie, what was that moment when you realize you needed to create record 20th 28 where you want it to change the lives and the career trajectory of women of color?Melanie: Sure. So I come from a really matriarchal family of New York and women, both women who think we can do anything, my grandmother, I remember her just telling us just whatever you’re going to do You can figure it out, you can get it done. And so I didn’t realize that there were problems negotiating salary that women typically had till I was like 32. Because for me, I always felt like I could ask for more money, or I could seek a different position. And there were some skills that I had on the inside of me that I didn’t really know were there around influencing and building alliances and things like that. They got me mentors and sponsors who could show me the playbook and all the things I didn’t know. And once I figured out that wasn’t true of everybody, it felt like such an injustice. Because I knew people who were just as talented, maybe more, just as diligent, maybe more, that we’re not getting half of the promotions and opportunities I was getting, because there was this invisible scorecard that they had no idea about. And the second set of skills they needed to develop to advance in their managers didn’t understand what the disconnect was either. They wanted more women of color advancing and they couldn’t figure out why wasn’t happening. And so when I saw that, that missing bridge between them, I thought Maybe I could be that. And that’s what breakers 28 aims to do to create the conditions in the organization and to help individual women of color do the things they need to do to jump that chasm and get where they deserve to be.Michele: I love it. I’m so you so aligned with the mission of a positive hire. So it’s always great to find somebody else working to help women of color in, especially in their careers. What has been your biggest accomplishment in your birth or 28 journey thus far?Melanie:Sure. So I think my client work has been really exciting. Sure, I’ve done thought papers, and I’ve gotten to speak places and all that stuff. But what’s been really exciting to me is when I take an organization, I’m thinking of one nonprofit I’m working with right now, from a place where they’re not really sure where they are from a race and equity perspective. They’re not sure what the barriers are. They just know they’re not hiring enough people of color are not advancing enough people of color and that people feel kind icky about the way things are happening. And I’m able to help them get clarity on what’s going on, and what managers need to be doing differently in how they hire in how they manage and how they advanced talent. That’s going to make the biggest difference. And in that particular organization I’m thinking of I didn’t get the permission, which I didn’t say their name. There. I’m already seeing managers hiring differently, hiring more based on qualifications and actual concrete must haves, rather than these bias criteria, for example, or leaders being more thoughtful about how they use their voice empower. Those sorts of like distinctive changes in behavior are the things that make me the most proud.Michele: Definitely, definitely sounds like a fantastic accomplishment with Bricker 28 when we’re looking at intentionally inclusive management in an organization, what does that look like? What What can we What are characteristic When somebody this just an inclusive management and then what are the steps, they some things they need to take so that they are intentional?Melanie: Sure, so at the top level, the mindset of an inclusive manager is I don’t know everything. Like if you’re coming to the table thinking you know better than the people who work for you, game over, right? Because the heartbeat of inclusion isn’t that I asked a black woman what to do because it’s the right thing to do. Right or ask a lot the next person like how should I attend this challenge so that I get their buy in and they do it my way anyway. Like, that’s the wrong way. That’s that’s our parents parents model of inclusion, where it’s an added girl that lets people go along with what you want. What what smart, inclusive managers are thinking about now is, I actually don’t know everything. I can’t see everything. In some ways, my identities line up with our core customers in some ways they don’t and so the more diverse employees But I can get into a decision that I’m making, the more likely that decision will be the right one. And so inclusive, inclusive management starts from the place that my people are brilliant. And they bring great things to the table. And if I don’t take advantage of those great minds, I’m going to make decisions that are flat on one side or more. And so that’s the mindset, right? And from that mindset organizations, and then individual managers do different things. So at the organizational level, when you’re trying to manage more inclusively, let’s say you’re a business owner, let’s say you’re a C suite leader or principal or something like that, right? And you’re trying to manage more inclusively top down organizationally. That means you create conditions for people to give you input, before you’ve made the decision, like not as a last check the box effort, right. But in the beginning of a process when you’re engineering, how it’s going to go, thinking about what are those moments where I need input? How am I going to get that input, and how am I going to be responsive to it It also means that when it comes to assessing managers, you’re actually hearing from the people they manage about how they’re doing. You’d be surprised how often the people held least an account in organizations aren’t the top of organizations, because there aren’t safe mechanisms for people to tell the truth about their experience working for them. So those are two organizational moves. And we’re talking about individual supervisors, then that comes to how am I asking for feedback and input throughout the process when I delegate assignments, so for example, not just saying, Hey, this is the only way to do it. But what do you think about this? Is there another way we could do this? Are there pieces I’m missing here? It includes getting feedback and input when it comes to strategic level decisions. Are there pieces I’m missing in my analysis here? Is there a stakeholder group I haven’t thought about? This is especially important when you’re doing community work right and you’re thinking about populations at the margins. Oftentimes staff members have a better perspective for what this parent, or what this lower income family might be experiencing, then you might, because you’re up here in this ivory tower, and you may be missing a piece of the perspective. So the first piece has to do with your individual management getting feedback on the delegations, you do the assignments you give, whether the workload reasonable, that sort of thing. The second has to do with the decision making around your core, your core business, your core mission, your core program, how am I hearing from people that are closer to the work about the work so that I can make more robust decisions? And then the third piece is creating room for people to speak up when things are going wrong. I can’t tell you how many managers I hear from they’re like, Oh, yeah, my doors always open here flip, right, except nobody gives them any feedback. And so as a result, these managers think they’re doing the best and their best people are walking out the door. You know, they’re six months away from someone handing in a resignation letter and they have no idea because they have haven’t created the kind of environment where people can check you respected respectfully, when you’re doing something wrong. And so inclusive managers are thinking about how do I create the kind of relationship with my direct reports that they feel comfortable giving me feedback. And I don’t say I hear you, but I really hear them. And I really implement what they tell me to do.Michele: Definitely, definitely agree with that. So we’re in the midst of Covid19. What does it look like now to be intentionally creating an inclusive culture?Melanie: So the first thing you need to know is if we’re in physical distancing, which many of us are, then that means that we’re not going to have as much of a bent toward inclusion as we would if we were in the same office. So if you can imagine you were managing me and I was right outside your office, my cube was right there. be much easier to ask my opinion about something right But when I’m all the way in my house, far from you, it takes work to make that extra step to get my input and advice, and to make sure that I am kept in the loop of how things are going. And so my first piece of advice for managers trying to manage equitably and inclusively in the time of pandemic, right is to be designing moments, to bring your team together to give you input on how things are going to tell you the truth about what’s not working. If you don’t create those containers, things will happen. And then you’re going to be stuck holding the bag when things don’t turn out the way you think they’re going to. Because there was never any room for people to tell you things were going poorly. So that’s the first piece create the conditions create the containers for your team to get together and give you input. That might be a team meeting, where a standard part of the meeting is let me know how things are going with the program right now. Let me know how you know let me know how customers are responding to our new offering. Let me know how what we’re seeing in terms of suppliers cancel orders, whatever it is, whatever your indicators in your business, creating space for people to tell you the bad news, and to give you input on how to tweak things so that maybe your results will be better. The second thing I would think about is how you actually manage performance. So let’s say someone on your team who’s usually a pretty good performer is dropping balls like it’s their job, just not delivering late on deadlines. How do you how do you approach that in an inclusive way? Well, here’s what you’re not going to do what you’re not what you’re not going to do is roll up to somebody assume they’re slacking off. assume they’re playing Nintendo Switch or whatever. And that’s why they’re not getting the work done. Instead, when you have the conversation and say, Listen, I know this is a tough time in the world. I don’t need to know all the details of your situation. But I do need to know what you can commit to do. Because what can’t happen is these expectations can’t be getting missed all the time, and you remain in good standing here. What can happen is we can renegotiate those expectations and make them realistic to the contract. You’re in if you’re caregiving for children caregiving for others, we can talk about that. But I need you to commit to something. And then what you commit to me about, I need you to hit it. Like I need both things to be true. Because I need to be able to depend on you to keep your word and achieve these results. You have a conversation like that, where people feel safe saying, You know what, I can’t make 12 calls a week, but I can make a strong 10. Or I can deliver this project, but I need to flex my hour so that the middle of the day is free. Those sorts of conversations are what lead to good results. And a turnaround and performance, even when people’s personal lives are in disarray. Because you become the anchor and the storm, the place where they can have predictability. And then as a result, your business benefits and they’re able to retain their job and succeed in this really challenging time.Michele: Absolutely having having conversation now, communication at the highest level? Absolutely. I want to go back to something you said about Crete. Eating opportunities to bring your people together. And I know a lot of people are doing meetings, are there other things they should be or could be doing to bring their people together than just an informational meeting? about what’s going on in the organization?Melanie: Sure. So people are trying all sorts of stuff right now. One of the things that folks have been doing is just having check ins that are check ins, they’re just straight up puddles in the morning, how are you doing? How are things going here? Three things you need to know this change in the day. What’s up for you today? And so teams are like having those real time kind of negotiations almost like a scrum in a tech context of like, what are you going to get done? Um, but but with a little more of an edge on like, the personal and like the challenges they’re facing in their work and how they’re going to tackle it and what the day looks like. That’s totally something you can do. From a bringing people together perspective. It’s, it’s less about whether the container is meetings because it probably is. It’s more about how you structure it. execute that meeting. So I’m not saying your typical department meeting, as usual, where you’re reading out updates, a couple bullets. I’m saying can you have a 45 minute tactical meeting about how we’re going to negotiate this challenge, and people can be on the zoom or on the phone on zoom, because obviously, some folks can’t keep it together on the video. Either way, it’s fine, that they’re able to contribute and maybe there’s even pre work. So they come in ready to solve a problem together. Or another thought might be that I know some leaders are doing kind of like fireside chats where they’re sharing out but there’s a lot of room for questions and engagement. So it’s not just report out it’s actually engaging with small team audiences. So maybe like her team, you do a fireside chat or you do a fireside chat with the Oregon there are some mechanisms for submitting questions or polling to see how people are feeling about things.Michele:
Definitely love those options you shared they are definitely powerful and and much needed right now. In the midst of COVID-19 I wanted to ask, what advice would you give somebody who wants to enter into this space? They want to be sure that they are creating intentional leadership within organizations.Melanie:Yep. The first thing I would think about is, you know, we do a little bit of self work self assessment, like what are my liabilities, right? So for example, one of my favorite leaders that I’m working with right now that I just actually just finished coaching him. One of the things that I loved about working with him is he was so self aware. Right, so white man came from a very privileged background economically is leading an organization that has lots of women of color on the leadership team has lots of people of color, trans folks, folks at the margins, LGBTQ and he knew that coming into it, he might be showing up in a way that does not promote equity. So he did his work. by that. I mean, he did reading. He did his own study, he got himself a coach. And he and he asked for tough feedback. And he took it. And he acted on it. And he wasn’t defensive about it. And over the course of years, he’s become a much more inclusive leader. Because he did that work. I think one of the things that’s tricky is we are big fans of the blame and train in business, where you go to a training, you’re so bad, you’re so terrible, you’re so bad. Now you’ve done it, you’re good now, that that’s not how this works, right? being inclusive is about behavior change. And as a Latina from the Bronx, I don’t get a pass, I still may be doing the same things that are actually causing disparate impact to people at the margins of my organization. And so my advice would be leader, start with yourself. What are the gaps you have hunches about? Are there trends you’ve noticed, for example, when you manage black men, it doesn’t work out? Well. That’s data, or if you tend to bump heads with that Other people who look and sound like you, that’s data, right? What you lived a while, what are the trends, you know, and from that self awareness place, start finding ways to staff those weaknesses, whether it’s by reading, whether it’s by feedback that you actually listen to, whether it’s by, you know, building a community of people who will check you outside of work, and you can sort of have thought partners outside of your job that you run situations by. What I will say, though, from from an equity perspective, is oftentimes leaders will put a lot of burden on people of color to be their teachers. And that’s not what I’m suggesting. What I’m suggesting, is find a multifaceted approach to growing as an inclusive leader. And someone that may mean feedback from your direct reports, not because they’re black, because they’re your direct reports, right? And they’re going to have the most insight on your behavior and opening up the floor to say, hey, Mel, I know that you’re you’re Latina. I know that you know, I haven’t had as much experience working with women of color. If I ever show up wonky? Will you tell me? If I say something and it doesn’t land? Well, and my contract to you is I won’t hold it against you, would you be willing to share it? And that opens the door for them to engage on their terms around giving you feedback. But when that happens, you better be gracious. You better not say I hear you, but because the first time that happens, it’s shut down and you’re not getting that feedback ever again.Michele: Definitely will have would happen definitely can see that happening. What’s a common myth about being an inclusive leader? Mm hmm.Melanie: Yep. Um, I think that one of the most dangerous myths that I see is that you get to a place and you arrive, like you win the award and you’re done. Like you’re good. So we just need to get there. I just need to get the training. I just need to get the coaching. I just need to do this work for two years and then boom, got it. And what I’m finding is the kinds of leaders I want to follow the kinds of leaders I love to coach the kinds of leaders that are getting great results for people of color for LGBTQIA staff, for people at the margins. In general, economically first generation college grads, you name it, differing abilities, those leaders are always working on themselves. They’re always thinking about their language. They’re always reading about studying about how to become more inclusive. They’re getting feedback, they’re building communities of practice. They are not resting on their laurels because they’ve hired three Latina women like that. And so like the the I hate putting things in binaries as a rule, but as a rule, if you think you got there, you ain’t got there, right, like, and so the biggest myth I see is like this desire to get to a place as opposed to build skill and muscle and improving over time. It’s not a finite game. It’s an infinite one, if that makes sense.Michele:It does it absolutely that it’s it’s perfect. really thinking DNI is this, these five things in a box? And it’s so much more than these, these classifications are. And, for instance, intersectionality is so many, it’s like well, longside you Latino women and black women? I’m good. It’s like, well, summer mother’s summer heterosexual summer lesbian, like their other Some are third generation college graduate, summer, first generation Americans. What, what are you talking about? And then it’s a whole other ballgame. And they still like, Okay, I guess I have more work to do. Yeah, you really do.Melanie: And actually, if I can, the flip is also true. So I’d say if it was like the number two myth would be because I don’t know everything. I can’t do nothing. Right. Like I need to get all the information. And then once I know, then I can take a step. Right. And there’s this. It’s true in the nonprofit sector. It’s also true in the public sector. This perfectionism is actually the enemy of equity. Right? It’s the enemy of equity because it requires leaders to be perfect before they start, and they will be perfect. That was rule number one, right? And so my invitation is it’s better for you to do a little work. Try something, don’t be reckless, don’t be reckless. But try something. For example, I’m trying to quit ablest language. So for example, blind spots, or shouldn’t have a leg to stand on, like those little things and idioms in our language that actually are an affront to folks with differing abilities. I’m not saying I’m there yet. I still make lots of mistakes on that front. But just because I’m still learning doesn’t mean I can’t start and I can’t be accountable for my impact while I grow. I also don’t get a pass right when I make a mistake on that. I deserve to be called out for me. I need to own my impact there. But I can still give myself grace. To grow, while owning my impact, both things can be true.Michele: Absolutely, absolutely. I, I went to a lesbian event A few years ago in New York, actually. And we were walking to get drinks this and that. And I was I can’t remember what the question was like, Well, I’m not listening to you like, what are you doing here? But well, it says and allies. So they were surprised because usually we don’t show up. And so I was like, and so then the question became, why are you here that I have a lot to learn. I said, it’s great to read. But I’m not going to sit here and ask you questions. I need to sit here and see and learn what you need it by engaging with you edit on a one to one level. So sometimes you have to move yourself out of your comfort level outside of books and really go and just engage with people not questioning that but go where they are you beyond comfortable, why they are comfortable, and in that is really part of being intentional while you’re an inclusive leader, and sometimes they miss that. A lot of times they miss that. So, Melanie, this has been great. We’re gonna have to do this again. How can people find you?Melanie: Sure. So the easiest way to find me is you can just go to breaker 28 dot com, and I’m available there. I’m also really easy to find on LinkedIn as well. I’m just a LinkedIn slash in Melanie’s Rivero, so very easy to find on both of those fronts. But breaker 28 calm I think I have some resources there terms of additional inclusive tools for managers. So if that’s what you’re looking for, that’s where you’ll find it.Michele: And everybody that is a breaker to eight.com you know about the word she made it real easy for you. She took the shortcut for us. That breaker to eight.com Thank you so much, Melanie. It has been phenomenal having you on today.Thank you so much. And I look like To continuing the conversation later

Michele Heyward
0:02
Welcome, everybody. Thank you for joining me for another edition today. We have Devon Olivia, here with us and we’re going to be talking or rather she’s going to be educating us about domestic violence and really understanding terminology, the dynamics and what employers should be doing during and post COVID-19. Devin, thank you so much for joining.Devin Rojas0:28
Thank you for having me. Michelle.Michele Heyward
0:30
So can you tell us why you started in this area in this in this really is difficult, but it’s very important work that you do.Michele Heyward
0:42
Yeah, absolutely. So I actually started volunteering in this field when I was a senior in high school. Um, I wasn’t even legally old enough yet to be working in a shelter so my parents had to sign a waiver for me. And that was kind of my first real introduction to what this kind of work is to some of the system stomache barriers that survivors and their families encounter and to the ways in which our society has been developed over all to create these social norms that allow for intimate partner violence and other forms of power based violence to exist. So when I was an undergrad, I was studying criminal justice. And we had this speaker coming from this incredible team. She was a civilian that worked with the San Antonio Police Department on what they call the Crisis Response Team. And that was my first introduction to what does this work actually look like day in and day out. It was a team of law enforcement and civilians, that were responding in a collaborative way to survivors of intimate partner violence across the city, really with the purpose of connecting survivors to resources and to professionals that knew the unique safety considerations that intimate partner violence survivors were experiencing. Working in that particular system in law enforcement is incredibly difficult especially coming in with an anti oppression in the feminist framework. It’s a system that historically has not responded effectively to the needs of marginalized communities. And it was my first introduction to what I call capacity building, where I was really engaging not just in working directly with survivors, but in helping police officers understand the dynamics of domestic violence, the dynamics of safety and safety planning, how to effectively convey some of these really fluid concepts, right, we respond to a case and there’s not a physical injury. How do we still put into a report the idea of intimate partner violence? How do we write down what the course of control tactics are in the safety implications of really helping law enforcement understand the many ways in which survivors face tremendous barriers with the things that we’re seeing, for example, this really high level of burnout among police officers just not understanding why they’ve been out to this house six times in the last eight months and the person is still living with With the person creating harm, and really helping them to understand kind of the systemic things that survivors are running up against, and really the importance of enabling and empowering survivors to make the choices that are best for them. And that was the moment that I kind of fell in love with that capacity building side of things of what can I be doing as an advocate in these systems to transform the way the systems operate, and the people within those systems so that they are responding safely and effectively and with compassion to survivors.Michele Heyward
3:28
You use a phrase that I have, I’m not familiar with when it relates to domestic violence, and it is intimate partner violence. So can you define that a bit more? So we understand what that means?Devin Rojas
3:48
Yeah, so I’ll start with the Centers for Disease control’s definition of intimate partner violence, which is an actual or threatened physical or sexual violence or psychological or emotional abuse. directed towards a spouse and ex spouse current or former boyfriend or girlfriend, or current or former dating partner. So domestic violence is the word that was used early in the movement. There’s been a shift over the course of time away from that particular word because the language to it implies that the partners live together. Often it implies that they’re a married heterosexual couple. And what that does is it leaves out these entire populations of people that still experienced these dynamics of abuse, but aren’t necessarily covered in that language. So intimate partner speaks to two or more people who have ever had an intimate relationship, where dynamics of abuse or presenceMichele Heyward
4:43
so now you’re bringing in the LGBTQ plus community and in how they’re victims as well and had previously been eliminated by using what my generation knows or in a few others know as domestic violence. So thank you so much for that clarification. When it comes specifically to women of color, what are some barriers they commonly encounter in IPv.Devin Rojas
5:18
Um, so there’s a lot of things happening when we talk about women of color and IPv. So we know that women of color regardless of the race or ethnicity, non white, non European women experience significantly higher rates of intimate partner violence than their white counterparts do. And there’s a lot of reasons kind of behind that, including the ways in which colonialism and white supremacy have been forced into many of these communities, and that women of color have less access to resources. So some of the research on intimate partner violence lethality has found that since we’ve implemented mandatory arrest laws mandatory arrest laws, are laws that say when a police officer responds to an intimate partner by Call. If there’s a visible injury on the person, then they arrest the other person. It takes the essentially kind of the responsibility and blame from the survivor and it places it on an institution. What they have found is that the rates of lethality and homicide for survivors has not significantly decreased with these. It has four perpetrators. And so when we kind of break down, why is it that perpetrators and specifically black men, when compared with white men are now facing lower rates of lethality from the partner that they’ve abused? What we’re finding is that, shockingly enough, not shocking that law enforcement we’re not supporting black women calling in cases of intimate partner violence. A lot of this comes around the stereotypes that black people are capable of handling more physical pain than non black people, that black women are stronger and more resilient than non black women. And so they don’t need somebody responding to help them. So that’s one example of the ways that the stereotypes around black communities and black people have specifically harmed that community. We also know that some of the things like we know, intimate partner violence increases during the migration process from one country into the US. A lot of that is around social isolation, the more isolated a family is the higher risk they are for experiencing intimate partner violence. We also know that things like medical care may not be accessible to many survivors, particularly if they don’t have health care or if they’re low income. Being able to just show up to a doctor to treat your injuries may not be as viable, which means that women of color who are more likely to have lower access to health care may also face longer term damage as a result of the abuse and the violence that they’ve experienced. We also know that things like obtaining restraining Orders successfully prosecuting a case are going to be really challenging because of the racial and ethnic biases that judges are bringing into the courtroom and that attorneys are bringing into the courtroom and kind of this idea of who the perfect victim is. And oftentimes women of color are not going to fall into that preconceived idea of who that perfect victim is.Michele Heyward
8:20
Okay. That those very, very interesting and I can see, see that from my own personal experience. When you’re talking about relationship between IPv and employment. Yeah.Devin Rojas8:37
The So what?Michele Heyward
8:40
So what should employers be looking for? And how can they potentially help their employees? So, um,Devin Rojas
8:50
I want to start with a little bit of kind of backstory of what does IPv in the workplace look like? Right, we know that roughly 40% Sons of people in the work field have experienced intimate partner violence that has impacted them at work in somehow and often this is going to be in the forms of harassment and on the job stalking by their partner. We also know that 20% of workplace fatalities were the results of intimate partner violence, meaning that the person who was killed on the job, their partner came to work and harmed them killed them and potentially injured their colleagues as well. We know that women in the workplace the number continues to increase and many employers are not equipped for the unique needs that professional women have, including responding to intimate partner violence. And the relationship that a survivor has to employment can be really complicated. Employment may be used as the by the perpetrator to control the survivor as the sole income earner. It may be Another one used, where the perpetrator may be actively trying to interfere with their job so that they can’t have financial sustainability and security independent of the person causing harm. So some of the things that employers might see would be what we call workplace disruptions. And so this would include kind of any behavior on the part of the person creating the harm, that delays their partner from being able to show up to work on time. And there are often things that occur in the home. So prior COVID-19 This might be assaulting the partner so that they have injuries and have to call out of sick during COVID-19. This could be things like refusing to parent or homeschool children while your partner is in a meeting or conference call. It could be things like behaving in a threatening manner towards children or pets in the home so that the partner stays psychologically distracted trying to manage the risk in the household of more vulnerable household members. It could be things like hiding their computer or their charger Or their cell phones so that they can’t communicate with colleagues and literally sign in to work that day. It could be things like creating chaos in the background so that the partner is distracted, humiliated, and is put in a position where they’re forced to sign off for the day. Other behaviors may include on the job harassment and stalking. So we have essential personnel who have to say, for example, go to a hospital because they’re a nurse or they’re a doctor. This could be a partner stalking or threatening them. It could be a partner who refuses to let them sleep in the home for fear of bringing in COVID-19. It could be a partner that is creating disruptions that diverts their work day so they can’t show up. It could be a partner who is threatening to go out into the world and contract COVID-19 and bringing it home to their children if the partner doesn’t comply, threatening to contract it and give it to the coworker or to the partners co workers if they have to report into the office.Michele Heyward12:01
Other things that we might see is reduced productivity.Devin Rojas12:05
survivors are under tremendous stress what the mental math that survivors are having to do on a daily basis, they are having to think about every single decision and choice and action. They make every single decision choice and action that their children make if there’s children in the home, and having to constantly stay a step ahead of the person who is creating this chaos and violence in their lives. There’s a lot of work that goes into managing another person’s behavior and constantly trying to navigate that risk. And so when you then think about that in the workplace, right, if we’ve all experienced stress at some time in our life, think about a moment when you’ve been highly stressed, and how effective you’ve been in all the other aspects of your life, right? It kind of just goes down. And that’s what many survivors experience they’re also having to spend a lot of time on the phone managing their partner’s behaviors or emotions. They may be arriving late, or leaving early. I’m taking time off because of injuries and then just kind of that psychological and mental distraction from the stress and trauma that they’re living with. Another one might be workplace violence where a partner will literally show up to the workplace and cause violence either towards the victim or towards their colleagues. And then another big one that I think many employers may underestimate is the medical, administrative and liability costs. Employers are responsible for ensuring that any hazards that may be likely to cause serious harm or death to their employees while at work, are addressed proactively. intimate partner violence is one of those hazards. We also know that survivors have increased absenteeism, tardiness and turnover. It is incredibly difficult for survivor to maintain employment with a company. And that has major implications turnover is expensive and so if we can reduce turnover by supporting survivors, it’s in the best interest of both the survivor and the company.Michele Heyward
13:59
So let’s Let’s talk about the turnover or if an employee or is seeing these actions or behavior in their employee, what are some things they can do to or services, they should consider having all of their employees who are in an intimate partner violence.Devin Rojas
14:28
Okay, so the first thing I would recommend is to look at your organizational culture. Some of the studies done on why survivors make a decision to either disclose the abuse they’re experiencing or not disclose the abuse they’re experiencing to employers really comes down essentially to workplace culture. Does the survivor feel that this work environment is one that will believe her and will support her? Two of the biggest reasons that survivors choose to not disclose as a belief that’s a private matter, and a belief that it’s an embarrassment A shameful thing. And so if employers can do work within their organizational culture to start dismantling those belief systems, they’re already going to start reducing those barriers. survivors are also more likely to disclose if they have a colleague or a supervisor that they trust. And so building those relationships with colleagues and employees is incredibly important to supporting survivors. The core of whether or not a survivor is going to disclose is if they feel that they can trust the person. I would also recommend employers look at their intimate partner violence policy. Many employers do not have a policy they’re not equipped for this and what that results in is a punitive or reactive response because they weren’t prepared. And with a policy in place, it will provide that framework to help support a survivor in a collaborative survivor centered way that keeps everybody in the workplace safe. Um, In that policy, one of the important things is a requirement to safety plan. And so safety planning is something that all domestic violence professionals or intimate partner violence professionals are familiar with. And essentially, it’s a tool. It’s an informal tool around. What can we do to increase safety and manage risk, and then finally, knowing what resources are available, so there are some amazing national resources the national network to End Domestic Violence the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence, Futures Without Violence are all phenomenal national resources. Every single state has a coalition dedicated to intimate partner violence. And so employers can look up intimate partner violence or domestic violence state coalition and find resources and then there are also local domestic violence programs that are always more than willing to provide resources technical assistance and training to allied professionals wanting to To support survivors.Michele Heyward
17:01
Okay. Thank you for that. I want to ask a question this particular question, because of the belief that I hear often. And I want to know, you know, what are some other common myths about IPv that you’ve heard and you continue to hear, that employers really need to be aware of? Okay.Devin Rojas17:25
So,17:26
I think in the workplace, one of the big ones is that educated professional women don’t experience it. What we know is that IPv cuts across racial, religious, economic lines. And we know that women on either extreme of the spectrum for education are at higher risk, meaning women who haven’t finished high school are at highest risk. And women with two masters or more are at highest risk. And kind of when we think about that, initially, we’re like, Well wait, because wouldn’t more Education mean more resources and more finances. But if we kind of break down what’s the root cause of intimate partner violence, the root cause of intimate partner violence is gender based oppression. And women with high levels of education may be perceived as a threat to a partner, because they’ve got the capacity and the ability for that financial security and sustainability. And so there’s some interesting dynamics happening in that where I think a lot of people tend to kind of underestimate the risk that professional women may be at. Um, I think one of the other ones really is that it’s an issue for the home. I’m not quite grasping why what’s happening at home as horrible as most people will agree it is with relevance to the workplace. And I think when we start kind of looking at what is the percentage of our workforce that are women, what is the financial cost of not addressing intimate partner violence And what are the implications society if we don’t do this, right? Because if we have women who are experiencing this type of violence and trauma in their daily lives, reporting to work, and having their productivity and their creativity and their phenomenal brains stifled because of that society, we have an obligation to support these women because they have so much to offer the world, particularly in fields where women and women of color especially are underrepresented. We have a social obligation to creating an environment where people are able to show up and do their work and all of their glory, and be safe while doing so.Michele Heyward
19:47
Absolutely agree. Um, what I really like about the work you’re doing is that it focuses on where we need to be right now. It also focuses on where employers should be focusing their efforts and where they can get resources. But I also want to talk about, you talked about the importance of employers, making it part of the policy. And let’s focus a bit on unemployment, like, how does it impact not only employers, but really all of us when it comes to the unemployment rate for those who experience IPv.Devin Rojas 20:36
So we know that survivors have
20:41
more challenges than people who are not experiencing intimate partner violence in maintaining financial and Employment Security. They have more gaps in their resumes. They may have higher rates of termination if employers are not understanding the dynamics that are present They may have higher rates of leaving employment if it becomes too unsafe to work. Um, and that alone is going to translate to years and years and years of loss income and loss professional growth. We also know that the vast majority of women who are experiencing homelessness are homeless as a result of intimate partner violence. It is the leading cause of homelessness among women. And many of these women also have children who are now also experiencing homelessness. And our social safety network is not designed in a way that is going to help kind of launch a survivor and to that financial sustainability and security if she doesn’t have access to other types of resources. If we break it down a little further and also look at the income gap, right we know white women make 77 cents to every dollar a white man makes we know that black women make I believe it’s 65 cents and Latinas 46 cents I may be slightly off on the numbers. But for black and Latino, non Indigenous women, those numbers are even lower than what white women are making, which means that black indigenous and women of color are already going to be uniquely vulnerable to any kind of financial crisis or instability in their life. And they’re already uniquely vulnerable to higher rates of intimate partner violence. And already facing additional barriers, bias and stigma in their employment that white counterparts are not facing, which is going to be when we kind of pull all of that together, looking at how employers are responding, increased risk of termination for essentially being a victim, and then fewer resources to help sustain that financial security. They need to manage their risk.Michele Heyward
22:52
Does that answer the question? Yes, it does. Thank you so much. I, I think for a lot of employers, they don’t know what to do, which is why they say it’s a home issue, then if they can find a way to support their employees, what does that look like? but for others is like, well, if they don’t work here, then it’s no longer my problem, but it’s really a systemic problem that needs to be addressed overall. I want to ask you this particular question, because I think you’ve done the work for so long at this point. What has been one of the biggest surprises doing this work that you’ve learned and you were the one it was data experience that has come about?Devin Rojas23:43
So I’ve continued to be shocked every day doing this work. Um,23:51
I think
23:57
one of the I’m going to go with a popular Have one of the biggest kind of heartwarming surprises I’ve run into is the real belief that I think people want to do the right thing. People want to help and support each other. And the challenge is often around just not knowing how to do that. And when people are empowered to be able to do that, they can do incredible things for their community, um, in my experience working with some of these systems where I’ve stepped in, and I’m like, I don’t know why I’m here. I don’t know if I can do anything that’s going to be able to make someone’s life better or they’re experienced simply navigating the system better. I have always been pleasantly surprised to find allies and rock stars and amazing humans, who are genuinely dedicated to building a safer world for everybody. And the challenge that they often simply run into is just not knowing how to create channel that energy into something productive. And so I think when we can equip people with knowledge and resources and allies and partners and experts, and kind of pull it together in this really collaborative, multidisciplinary way, where we’re valuing everybody’s expertise and input and the lived experiences of survivors who have actually gone through this and centering their voices, were able to really transform the way we understand intimate partner violence and the way systems are responding to survivors and victims.Michele Heyward
25:33
Thank you, I like the way you select is something positive. I absolutely agree. We often just want to know how to do it. We have we have the compassion, the empathy, and the we’re compelled to step in, we just want to know what are the steps? So, Devin, how can people reach out to you How can they contact you or connect with youDevin Rojas
25:59
so They can follow me on Instagram at Rojas but spelled are oj as the color red and Spanish underscore consulting. Um, they can reach me by email at Devin DV i n Rojas 09 detailsMichele Heyward
26:16
did another edition today we have 26:29
your mute.Michele Heyward
26:31
So Devin, where can people find you? How can they connect with you?Devin Rojas
26:35
So they can follow me a couple of different ways. I am on Instagram at Rojas spelled ROJ s like the color red and Spanish underscore consulting. They can reach me by email at ro Devon D Eb i n dot Rojas, r o j. s 09 at gmail and they can also find me on my website, WWE W dot Rojas consulting.org.Michele Heyward
27:04
Thank you so much for joining us today. This has been a fantastic conversation that is not had enough. I definitely think we should do something a little bit later maybe help employers. I would love that to pull some resources27:18
together some workshops. Yes,27:21
exactly.Michele Heyward
27:22
So everybody Stay tuned we will be in touch and I hope you’re having a great day.Devin Rojas27:27
You too. Thank you, Michelle.

Michele Heyward:
0:00
Welcome, everybody. And thank you for joining another edition today with us we have one of the best women I know in tech, Deldep Medina. She’s the principal of Medina and associate consulting. She is also director of research and data with black and brown founders. So welcome Bill. Bill is great to have you on today.Deldep:
0:22
Thank you, Michelle, thank you for organizing all of this in the midst of all the changes that we’re in the middle of, and also just giving people access to information that they need from a varied source of experts. So I’m really excited to watch the videos as well as participate.Michele Heyward:
0:38
I had to it’s been some really, really great information. And and I definitely wanted to have you on as part of this discussion in the midst of the pandemic. When we think about data, like when when we think about data, and I and I have to be different Unlike a few years ago, as an even as an engineer, I thought about data differently than I do now, as a tech founder, what are some common mistakes, or common things you’re seeing when people think about data?Deldep:
1:17
Um, people think that data and human beings are somehow separate. And actually, they’re interrelated. So depending on who you are and what you’re building, there’s a series of things that you can be capturing and getting information. There’s interactions that people are having. So that’s a very common thing, how many times people click a particular piece, or page, there’s a lot of a b testing of like, we’ll have test a and test B, which of these two messages are resounding with people and then go from that. And then there’s personal data about who the person is and what what they’re looking to interact with. And so often those things are called personas. And then a lot of big tech companies. That’s the way that they look at it is it created prototype of a human being. And then based on that they make some assumptions. Often the folks that are in those rooms are thinking of folks like us as personas, or if they are, they’re thinking about us in one dimensional ways. And so there’s more to us. So like, the example I like to give to people, is folks think, and think, Oh Latina. This is what the equivalent is not realizing that there’s subtleties. So for example, I love salsa music, I listen to it all the time. I also love the Pixies. I also love doctor who I also love girlfriends, that TV show from the 90s. Like, these are things that have influenced me both from a pop culture perspective, but from a human perspective. And too often, people aren’t thinking of the subtleties really make up who human beings are and how you can interact with them. And so like that’s my issue with personas is that, yes, you can go way too deep and way too detailed. Do you like how many Latinas that love salsa and like Doctor Who and girlfriends? Like, I am sure there is a much larger quantity of us than people expect. But these aren’t like the touchstones that are people are thinking of because they’re not thinking of the cultural components. So that’s one piece of it all. And then the other piece around data that gets to be really tricky is with the changes that we’re undergoing, that are undergoing in Europe right now around GDPR. So the idea that the data belongs to the individual, rather than is something that we give away for free. That has meant that tech companies in the US in particular have made billions of dollars off of our data. Every time we click on something every time we actually engage and say yes, I’m going to opt in. That has meant that we have given out a ton of information and that has been mined, sometimes against our own detriment. And sometimes, you know, the things that we’re exchanging we don’t realize With the value is so data and data privacy and data collection and data thinking is a very detailed field that so often women of color are not a part of we’re not asked a we’re not invited. We’re not. And we’re not chosen for those positions, regardless of our, you know, education or background.Michele Heyward
4:24
How did you get started in tech? Like what was the drive to get into tech?Deldep:
4:31
Um, I would say, I’ve always loved computers. It’s really silly. And I love computers at a time when computers were not a thing, right? So I was the only girl and after school Computer Club, and Alvarado elementary school and I often say that in a lot of the talks that I give, because I was very lucky to be at the school, it was my local public school. There was, by all accounts, there was nothing special about it, but there was a lot that was Special there. For example, ruthless Ah, Wilde was a very well known artist was my art teacher and I want a scholarship, through her to go take some art classes. There was an after school Computer Club, there was all sorts of programming that was happening there. That really gave me an opportunity to see many sides of who I was, unfortunately ended up dropping out because I was the only girl in it. And all the boys wanted to play video games, and I wanted to learn how to build them. And so I’ve always liked computers. I bought my first computer at the age of 16. It cost as much as I used car at the time. All my friends thought I was nuts. They were like, why are you buying this thing a Commodore 64 but that one machine that cost like $330, which was a lot of money back then, like a trained me and I trained my younger brother, one of my younger brothers on some computer basics. And then my first job while at college was a bulletin board service. So it’s an old school dial up service. You would dial up, you would exchange information with people, you’re dialed out, and then it became calmer. And I attribute all of this to several factors. One geographic luck. I grew up in the Bay Area, to a curiosity and access. But three, that wasn’t enough for it to make a successful career for myself, right. And so while I’ve been in a lot of spaces and places, and I’ve had a lot of experiences, the reality is, it didn’t all add up to, you know, necessarily financial wealth, necessarily professional positioning, or the aspirations that I would have liked to have had. And in the process, I’ve learned that so often people think of nerd and they think of a certain prototype. And that is not necessarily true. There’s a lot of us that are nerds that we just don’t look like our white male counterparts and we have different experiences. So firstly, When I was working at the bulletin board service, I was young, I was single, and yet I had family responsibilities. When my father lost his job, I was the one that bought him shirts so that he could go and interview as a 40 something year old man. When my family couldn’t afford for my brother to go to summer school, I was the one that paid for that summer school. So often, my salary, even though it was less than my white male counterparts, was not only important, but pivotal to my family’s well being. And that also meant that my experience in tech spaces was very different. And that wasn’t necessarily taken into account. But I didn’t have the language to be able to say, here are the things that I need, because I was just grateful to have a well paid job.Michele Heyward:
7:50
Yes. And we’re taught like you have opportunity, take it, you’re going to have to work twice as hard. You’re going to get last and we’re working to change that. So I want to go into the work you do with Medina and Associates consulting. And again, I, yeah, what does that look like when you’re helping clients with their DNI?Deldep:
8:15
Thank you for asking about that. So here’s the thing. This wasn’t something that I saw as a plan or a thought of like, I’m going to form this company. And this is what I’m going to do. Like I had a startup that went bust. I, I’ve had other programs and other work that I’ve done that just didn’t go anywhere. And at a certain point, I found myself in this interesting place of having had a lot of experience within the industry, having a lot of experience interacting with people and having a deep interest in sociology, psychology, workplace dynamics, reading these things in really as a way of both explaining my own situation and trying to figure out what I needed to do next. For me to succeed cessful and as a result of that, I had more than one person that said, Hey, do you do XYZ? And in the beginning to be honest, I would say, No, that’s not what I do. I’m a database analysts. I’m a database manager, like, I love data, like data is my thing. This is what I’m doing. I like I took SQL 1.1 classes, you know, like, this was my thing. I ran databases, I cleaned up a lot of databases, like these were the things that I enjoyed. But people kept on asking me and I was at one point I said, Okay, so if I was going to do this, how am I going to do it? How can I differentiate myself from other people? What are some of the issues that I see? And I see that so often? There’s two things that happen in parallel one, we, as a culture and deeply do not understand the historical roots of race and racism. We do not have a common language we do not have a common understanding what these things mean as a result That you have a lot of people that are cross talking without actually talking to each other. Right? So it’s like, I will use the kitten latest thing that has happened and maybe this will make this video a little bit but the whole Karen thing like is Karen the N N word, right? That comes from a specific place where the person who said that does not understand the historical, emotional context in which most black folks live in today or have lived in in the last 50 years right there, this person is talking about the their inability to understand how, as a white woman, they’re still white and that they benefit from that whiteness, right? So patriarchy and white supremacy are two things that are baked into our culture, that so often we have to understand to be able to try to remove ourselves and I say try because it’s a constant process because you are never really going to be removed from it until we’re all removed from it right? So there’s that piece of we just don’t have a common language and understanding of what it is meant to live in a post 1968 world where we thought a lot of folks were told, and we were taught that racism was over, after 1968. That was the prevailing narrative that we were told up until 2008. Right? So there’s that piece. And then there are the systems in place that are currently in place and have been created and recreated, that hold this lack of understanding or lack of education or lack of engagement, whatever you want to call it, are absolutely totally blind. I don’t want to know about it. I don’t want to see it, it’s too painful in place, and that these two things are in relationship to each other. So I look to address both creating a understanding and education around if you are a CEO accompany, how is it that you’re looking at and unpacking and understanding the racial dynamics, not only in the workplace like number one in the workplace, because that’s your position, and that’s the place that you’re in. And that’s your responsibility is for a workplace. So how is that you have that? How do you have an education? So I like to create what I call syllabuses that are specific to people, I like to gather the data, understand who the person is, and then say, here’s some reading less for you to have. If you’re, if you’re reading the Wall Street Journal every day, if you’re reading the Business Insider, if you have time to read management books, you also have time to read some bell hooks. It’s that simple. Yes. Like you have to know who she is at least, so that you have an understanding of what does this look like? And what are people experiencing that are coming to you that you’re managing that you’re responsible for. So that’s one piece, and then two, how is it that you’re taking responsibility and doing an assessment of all the systems that you currently have in place?Deldep:
13:01
that are not necessarily giving you the best talent. That’s possible, right? Yeah. And how are these two things interrelated? And the reality is like, I like working with CEOs, often white men who are willing to undergo this, this conversation, and is not they’re not easy conversations, but they’re important pieces for you to have true leadership in the 21st century. Like, as a data nerd. I have to tell you, my biggest worry right now is that with a pandemic, nobody’s filling out the census. Like I have had palpitations. It is not a healthy thing. I agree. But census 2020 was something I was looking forward to because the results of the senses are going to show people the realities that we’ve been living under this country has undergone a demographic shift. In some places, it is visible, it is palpable, and you can tell you go into a place and you’re Like, wow, the demographics of this region have completely, utterly changed. Yes. And you can feel it, right, you can go like, wow. But those people haven’t been counted yet. And that reality has not been accounted for yet. And so census 2020, for me was that opportunity. And so I just like my one plug be like, please fill out the census. If you have a kid that’s anywhere from 10 to 12, fill it out with them, you can have a conversation about who you are, where you come from, you know, and they can learn to do it, because 10 years from now, there’ll be 20 years old, they’ll be 22. They’re going to have to learn how to do this on their own. And so it’s important for you to engage your family. But you have to fill it out regardless of what the situation right now because if we are under counted, county by county, we’ll get less than federal funding. You will have less access to everything from education, to infrastructure, you name the thing that you rely upon right now. Especially during this pandemic, hospital sizes, hospital beds, all of those things. The census is a key key key thing. And so that’s the thing that I would say that I often said to the CEOs is like, who you used to hire 10 years ago, is going to drastically change if it’s not already changed today.Michele Heyward:
15:21
I love the response and definitely filling out the census is important. I think this is the second time I’ll be doing it as an adult. Yeah. So I was I was living on campus, I want to say the very first time I was of age, so it still went to my parents house. But anyway, what are common myths about digging AI in tech?Deldep:15:44
That’s a big question and I’m going to try to give you an answer. Because I think there’s a lot of myths out there that myth number one that I think has been chipped away at but is not completely gone. Is that We are meritocracy. I know that I was told that a lot when I was younger and it was coming up of you didn’t get x or so and so didn’t get Why? Because we’re a meritocracy. And their work just isn’t up to standard. Right.16:18
And I think that that was really frustrating.16:22
Also, because we’re data driven.16:28
You know, because most companies are data driven that deal with tech. The absence of data means that people can turn a blind eye. Ah, that’s why, for example, I like the census, because I think the census is very important. And I would say like, the demographics of this area are x, y and z. Right. How is your company stacking up to that? Where’s your EEOC report? Are you filling out an EEOC report? These are things so EEOC. Let’s just start with that is equal law. opportunity, equal opportunity. Before I forget, right?Michele Heyward:
17:05
employment opportunity,17:07
equal employment opportunities are I suppose that.Deldep:
17:11
So most companies have to fill this out, especially if they get beyond a 300% range, right? So it’s like, at that point, you’re asking people every time that they’re coming to your website, and they’re applying, and a lot of this, by the way, happens in software, and most people don’t. Most CEOs don’t know about this, because they hire somebody who’s doing the HR, they’re not asking the details. I’ve had this come up where I asked them, like, Where’s your EEOC report and they go, I don’t even know what that is. And I’m like, well, you better go talk to your HR person. And you better be getting that data of like, how many people are coming to upload to your site? And what are their demographics? And of those people who are you actually hiring? And they’re like, Oh, that’s a data point. I wasn’t keeping track of And then internally, when what what happens is what to hire people? How many people are actually getting promoted? How many people are actually, even if they’re moving laterally, what is the opportunity that you’re providing for people internally so that you have an understanding, kind of like your own mini senses internally of what’s happening internally in your company. Um, a lot of folks don’t have that data. And as a result of that, they can take a look and go around like, everybody’s happy here. Everything’s good. We’re a meritocracy. We’re not doing what these old companies used to do. And so I think like, that’s a big myth. But once again, in an absence of data, you actually don’t know what you’re working towards, and you don’t actually have goals. And every single other department in a tech company has data that they work on so that they can have goals. And so I think that that’s one of those places where people need to do work on another myth that I would say around it is that there’s no technical folks that are people of color. And that’s just also not true. And I think code 2040 did a really good report on this a couple years ago, where they said, this is how many folks are actually graduating with CS degrees that are folks of color. This is how many of them are actually getting hired. And that gap in between was huge. I think. I want to say it’s a shamba. I can’t remember right now, but I’ll send you the link, Michelle. So you can share with folks where there was another organization and said, Okay, how many people are getting MBA said are black. And how many people are actually getting hired? there two was a gap. I have seen this across the board. It doesn’t matter what reported is and it doesn’t matter what demographic it is, if you’re not a white man, your chances of actually graduating with often advanced degrees and actually getting hired for something. There’s a gap of people who are just falling through and so you Have the friends and family effect, which is, I remember a investor once said to me, if you can get your friends and family to give you $100,000 for your startup, I am more willing to give you $100,000. And I just said to him, Well, I guess you’ll never give me $100,000 because I don’t have anybody in my network that’s actually going to be able to do that. I am the friends and family, often to my family, right? Somebody needs extra rent money, somebody needs extra childcare money if something happens, like I’m the one that ends up helping, not the other way around. I don’t have people who are going to be able to invest in me readily without it having a consequence for everybody, right? Because once again, I’m not just an individual, I’m a part of a community and we are responsible for each other. That’s a very different way of interacting and living and being then it is I earn individual sounds And I’m responsible for myself. I think like that’s a huge cultural gap that so often people look at and go, Oh, here are great benefits. And I think that there’s some fantastic benefits and a lot of big tech companies. Not all of them apply to me because I don’t live that way. And that’s just not the way that I culturally interact with people.Michele Heyward:
21:22
Exactly. And that brings about understanding who is in your employee base, and what their needs are into office like with the majority of our employees said this, that doesn’t mean you’re taking care of your people that just went by percentage, and too often women and people of color on the lacking in of getting the benefits that are beneficial to them, even though they’re called benefits. Yeah. So we’re in the midst of COVID-19 and It’s still relatively early for us data on the impact. For death toll, yeah, access to healthcare, and economics, as well as employment. What is your early assessment of what we’re seeing? And then I want to talk about the next part is where do you see five years what what that impact will be on in each of those areas?22:32
Yeah, I’m sorry. I just got a little emotional.Deldep:
22:40
So Michelle, you and I both know that it was a surprising to see that both in terms of death toll in terms of impact. It’s hit around communities the hardest it’s hit working class communities the hardest like, this is not a surprise for any of us. If any, I was just waiting for the data to actually show that, because I knew that was the reality for a lot of folks. I was getting the texts, I was getting the messages. People were saying, My mom is sick, my dad is sick. You know, in places where folks of color live, like that’s just the reality and that too often we know that there was already health disparities, that had some to deal with the systems that we currently have, you know, and how people who get access to medical, you know, care in general beyond COVID-19. Like, if you’re not feeling well, do you have a personal doctor, the majority of folks of color do not, you know, health insurance rates, all of these things were already we already knew the numbers were bad before. This is just kind of showing us the consequences of that. And, and that too often racism has a personal physical cost. We have also seen an experience this of like, it’s not a surprise that high blood pressure is very common amongst black folks, because racism is not fun to deal with. And that is an accelerating kind of thing that is a, it’s always there and your body feels in your body absorbs it, the body keeps score, like that’s a reality across the board. And so I’m not surprised to see these things. Um, I have been heartened by how many folks have decided to self organize in different ways. I know that I’ve also gotten those texts and messages, and I’ve done a lot of those zoom calls where it’s just like, what are you doing, this is what I’m doing. This is what I can do who needs access to this and it’s been everything from a friend of mine put together a call, and she was able to get someone in Michigan who had access to machinery access to material cereals that were coming from someplace else, and then the expertise of a doctor to be able to create p PE. And they were able to create PP, that they were planning on creating that they had no expertise on creating. But suddenly they had a whole bunch of factories like working in Michigan. And it was a combination of two Latinas and an Egyptian doctor like that got together and were able to do this. And it all happened because of one phone call where somebody said, This is what I have. And somebody said, Oh, this is this is a connection that I have. Let’s make this happen. That’s been really heartening. It’s been everything from that to somebody just texting me and saying, Do you have any reusable bags and I said Funny you should say because one of the things that I’ve been doing during the quarantine is going through my closets and getting out stuff and I have a ton of reusable bags because I go to a lot of events and people have given me bags. And he’s like, great, can I come and pick them up because I’m putting together care packages for undocumented families that are not going to have access to anything. And I need bags right now somebody else has given me this, somebody else has given me that. And he put together 90 bags for a whole bunch of families. And that has been very heartening to and I just it’s one of those things where I realized like, thanks to technology, we were able to do that, right? We were able to have a national phone call and a national conversation with 15 different people. I was able to have someone that I that lives in my city, but I’m not in touch with a lot to suddenly sent me a message. And so I’m really grateful to all the engineers that have worked on these technologies so that we can have these conversations. But I know that so often when they’re looking once again at their personas, and they’re looking at their things. They weren’t necessarily thinking of a pandemic and they weren’t necessarily thinking of people that are serving folks of color and the needs that they have. And so that makes me realize on the systemic level, as we’re undergoing this demographic shift as it’s happening, how is it that we are both not only counted but considered Because we we actually run the economy in this country like that’s the thing like millennials of color, in particular, like, wow, the amount of the billions of dollars that they put in the economy because of millennials of color, women of color, in particular, like major buying decisions are made in our families with our approval. Exactly. That’s just the reality. So we run the economy.Deldep:
27:31
But so often, we don’t have ownership stake in that economy, which is why it’s important for us to have that and it’s important for us to advocate for these things. And it’s important for us to be doing not only the community work that we always do, but to recognize it amongst ourselves for the value that I has, and to uplift those stories. Sir.Michele Heyward:
27:53
That was a lie, but no meaning. It definitely has to be said. What would you like to see come out specifically for people of color? From COVID-19?28:10
I thinkDeldep:
28:12
there’s this concept of the future of work that people have been talking about now for the last three to five years of what will it look like when we’re fully integrated with computers and machinery, and there’s a ton of software that’s out there that’s going to make people’s lives easier. There’s been a lot of conversation and papers and books that have been written. So often those books and papers and things are either not taking the demographic shift into consideration. Or if they do, those are not necessarily written by folks of color. There are a couple of black women that think goodness are thinking about the ethical implications of AI from a professional kind. Like, I’m a professor at an institution, here’s the thing that I’ve written, here’s why it’s important for us to look at algorithms and the biases that algorithms have. There’s a couple of professional kind of like folks that have gotten together and are working on these things and are saying, hey, if we’re going to build tech, how can we build it ethically? So build tech trust, I think is doing fantastic work. But the future of work is now like the pandemic has actually pushed us into not the future of work then now what works, right. So then now a work means that everybody is has to have access to work that is safe, has to have access to work that is engaging and that pays a livable wage. Not everybody does, which is why we’ve seen the disparities that we have like so those of us were college educated and that are, you know, haven’t been engaging in tech work. have that as a as a privilege, but that does not necessarily, you know, reverberate across my family equally. I’ll say that for a fact. You know, not everybody, my family makes a professional wage, everybody. Some people make minimum wage, some people make more money, like there’s a spectrum and that we’re interconnected and in relationship with each other, right? So that you can’t say, oh, but you’re the smart one, or you’re the you’re the college educated one. You’re the exception to the rule, because I’m still in connection and relationship with other people. And so I’m hoping that the now work, the way that we’re working today

Deldep:
30:46
is going to take those things into consideration. And it goes beyond just governmental policy, but actually company policy and access right. So when you shut down your offices, Are you paying your janitorial staff? Exactly? Like, and when you’re shutting down your offices? Are you paying your food staff? More importantly, how is it that you can think of your food stuff injured janitorial staff if you’re not going to all return to big buildings, because there’s now this conversation? are we all going to go back to the buildings? And what does that look like? How is it that you can take the staff that tends to be for the younger part, but doesn’t necessarily need to be that and retrain them to actually keep on working for your company? Right? So I had this I had this concept that I said this once to someone and they looked at me and they said, What? So I said, What would it look like if all the big tech companies that have frontline staff so whether it’s somebody at the front desk, somebody that’s doing security, somebody is doing janitorial, somebody that’s doing food service and said to them, hey, we have some professional positions that we don’t need somebody with a college education. We just need people with skills. We’re going to train you on this, this and this because we have the training already, because we train people on this all the time externally. If you come to this class, we’ll pay you X amount for the Y amount of time. Let’s say it’s an eight week class, we’ll pay you your normal salary for eight week class. And if you pass this training, we’ll hire you on because we have all these positions that are available, and we can’t fill them. majority of the people that have those positions are folks of color, that don’t have college education, haven’t had an opportunity for college achievement for whatever reason. And you would suddenly have folks that would be more dedicated to those jobs because they would feel a sense of like, wow, this company is looking out for me. So I gave this as an example, like, five, six years ago, somebody said, what would it look like for you to negotiate this because if you’re going to be negotiating on behalf of janitors, if you’re going to be negotiating on behalf of frontline staff, like advancement is important, and at some point, they’re going to get robots With these floors, and they looked at me and they said, why would anybody want to hire a janitor, as a coder or something? And I thought to myself, so you’re thinking of people as disposable, because that is my big concern. And I’m saying this is like, nobody is disposable. We all have should have the dignity of work, we should all have the opportunity of decent paying work. And these things are intertwined with each other, they’re not separate. And the more you think of somebody based upon their position, and not their ability to grow, the less access you’re going to have to real talent, the less access you’re going to have to folks who actually want to go and work with you. And so like, that’s my hope is that people are taking this time to rethink what does it mean to have people work for me? What does it take what what does it mean for us to work with each other and how can we Make this as equitable as possible. But that’s not going to be possible unless we have some hard conversations. And we show up for them like and so often that work is work that folks of color and women of color in particular do. But more than ever, now, we really are going to have to push that out like, this is not the moment for you to say di was a nice idea. And we just need to survive. Because the reality is that your customers are going to be folks of color, and in the near future, or there already are and you don’t acknowledge it. And if we’re not buying your products, then nobody’s buying yourMichele Heyward:
34:37
products. Absolutely agree. It’s so interesting that you bought up the places they they said nobody, you know, while we hire a janitor, to be a coder, I’ve literally worked with several white men who worked their way up from the mailroom and they’re dead. But they were with the same employer for 30 to 40 years. They were eight To 19 years old when they start, so it is an opportunity and like you said they work their way their way up somewhere in management somewhere in your level something else. But they found value in building a career with the employer who invested in them early and saw their potential. So I absolutely agree it goes across spectrums when employer truly do this. What What is some advice or just last question, what what would you tell an employer who is looking at the eye as overhead costs, as opposed to an investment in their organization right now during COVID?35:49
Yeah, I want to acknowledge nobody right now has a crystal ball. So

Deldep:35:57
I just want to acknowledge that and I think this the are difficult situations that everybody’s in I think the more centered you are as a human being the better leader you are as a human being. The more you’re asking questions, the better off you are. This is a really good moment for leaders to listen and to make nuanced but needed decisions. And I think so often, in a situation like this is that people are going to rush into something out of a sense of panic. And I understand there’s different types of businesses and cash flow is different for different types of businesses. I think this is a great moment for accountants. So if you’re an accountant out there, thank you for doing your job. Because I think this is a moment where numbers matter but people matter as a accordingly. The economy doesn’t exist What are human beings? The economy is not the s&p 500 it is not the Dow Jones, it’s not any index out there. It’s not any index right now actually being driven by algorithms. Let’s let’s be clear about that too, right? Like, a lot of these indexes are being driven by algorithms. And those algorithms are not necessarily attached to human beings in some ways and have the ability to make decisions and were tasked with the ability to make decisions without human intervention unless somebody pushes a giant like comical red button, you know, metaphorically, you know, like, Oh, we better put a stop to this right. But the economy doesn’t doesn’t live without human beings. So the question you have to ask yourself is, what kind of company do I want to have? What kind of company do I want to lead that actually takes human beings into consideration? And di I think as a practice as the shift happens, is going to stop Being an external or an extraneous or a thing that’s built on top of something, it actually has to be in meshed into all of your work. The sooner you do that, the better off you are, the sooner that you’re thinking about how are we making sure that we’re equitable? How do we make sure that we’re hiring folks who have great skill sets, regardless of what their background is what they look like, whether they have an accent, disability, loving a different way, whatever it is, that is not your prototypal prototypical kind of like employee right now, the better off you are, because hiring and then getting rid of people and then re hiring them, and retraining people costs a lot more than actually thinking about what are the skill sets that are needed? How is it that people want sir in your You know, your ambit your like your workplace, you will understand what they’re great at. And how is it that you allow them to do that really successfully? It is not an easy thing, because if it was easy, everybody would do it. So I just want to acknowledge that.39:15
And I think thatDeldep:
39:16
you can’t let the pandemic be the thing that scares you from actually being successful at it. Right?Michele Heyward:
39:24
Absolutely, absolutely agree. It’s always going to be you always gonna have something to encounter. It is. How do you get through it? Like you say, as a leader, how do you bring your people through it? as many of them as possible? So, Dale, Dale, thank you so much for joining me. How can people connect with you?39:47
So the easiest way to find me is I am d l d LP. That’s my name, Dell, Dell, the pure silent.39:55
That’s my website. I am.39:58
I am DL dlp.com40:03
and you can also find me on Twitter atDeldep:
40:05
D l DLP, or on LinkedIn, d l DLP and Ed ins so they’ll tell me, which was always fine.Michele Heyward:
40:15
All right, it is a pleasure. Everybody tune in. We always have more when it comes to di here. We will talk to you later.40:25
Bye. All righty. Bye Michelle, thank you so much for having me. You’re welcome.

Michele:And today with me I have Mohammed Kamara and he is here to talk about disparities in healthcare when it comes to people of color in communities of color. And it’s really important to talk about healthcare doing COVID-19 because we’re seeing huge disparities. Welcome, Mohamed, thank you for joining me.Mohammed:Thank you for having me, Michelle.Michele:So can you tell us why you started your company and what really led you to go and switch directions and where you’re going in your career in education to start a telehealth company?Mohammed:Sure, so my sister passed away given birth. So during childbearing, she was expecting a daughter and she passed and that led me to sort of take a look Step back in my career was in healthcare, finance and valuation and then be able to provide telehealth services to populations that are look like me. So my sister passed and I suddenly became a caregiver to three of her children that she left behind. So my sophomore year I was an only father really sending money back home and taking care of their needs. And that has really helped us to focus on how can we increase access to care in communities of color? And in additionally, how can we use AI to impact racial disparities in healthcare? Michele: Now, as you talk about telehealth and racial disparities, I want you to First tell me where are you from? Because I did take a different accent than the accent I have.Mohammed: Sure, so I’m originally from Sierra Leone. I left my parents tree because of a civil war back in 2001. 1999 to be exact about when I left January 6 was the war happened in Sierra Leone so I left and traveled to Guinea and lived there for most a year almost almost a year lived in Senegal and northern England six months and then finally to the states. So that’s how I got my my son back to Columbus, Ohio. Michele:
Okay, so now you’re here in the US you’re in college and you’re far away from home when you lose your sister. What What is that like? Because a lot of us were may not be close our family but to be hundreds of thousands of miles away. How did you first cope with that?Mohammed: I think it’s a it’s much more taking a step back and then react because it has to happen really quickly. When when our parents give birth to us Usually in the African community, you are your parent’s insurance. Literally, we don’t have like life insurance. So we’re our parents insurance. And so what that means is as soon as a bad happens, you’ve got to think, Okay, what resources do I have that is financial resources, and as well as resources that I can send back home first for the burial to happen second, how do I plan to take care of whatever else you’ll be left behind and that is my message. I have three children. So those were the things that are happening very quickly in my mind. But beforehand, I was already sending money back home to my mom and to take care of ourselves. So I just just a wish my sponsor responsibilities just increased, that’s all.Michele: Okay. So your sisters has passed on and and you’re sending money home? What are your next steps? Like how do you get from losing her to having a telehealth Company what is tell us what happens in between?Mohammed: Sure. So what happens in between is I, as soon as that happened, and I had an opportunity to travel to Dominican Republic, Dominican Republic was a time I took my I spend my birthday so I took some time off of work and I spent about a week in Dominican Republic working with projects whole and while I was there, we’re providing care to a woman with the Zika virus. And so we went to a clinic in the wall area of Dr. And Dr. in about four hours out there to provide care out so I was I was in a pickup truck, had medical equipment, those pickup truck driving all the way for hours on loading that they have a community center in the in the wall area where when what they also had a classrooms or went into the community itself to provide this care. And that’s how the journey began. start researching what is the gap in healthcare that exists, why do health care board certified physicians and other medical professional goal received to provide care but there’s not a continuing conservative care? So I actually question is, how can we continue that here, right? telehealth was but what was on one option? And then it’s like how do we affect not only those people of color in that in the in the US, but as well as international? So how do you bridge the gap? Um, telehealth was a very big step to that.Michele: Okay. So you, you leave Dr. You come back to the US What are your next steps?Mohammed: My next step swore. I was in Georgia then. So I left Georgia to come to DC because it was about building team and ecosystem and you can’t do anything alone that I believe in. If you’re going to be anything successful, you need a team. So to be a good steward of the resources that you have, you’ve been blessed. With I was like, Okay, well, I’m gonna take that leap, took a big leap, come to DC and started started the building phase. I got into an accelerator program, then started doing customer discovery interviews when I met somebody who is who was wondering who is responsible of one comprehensive health care clinic in DC. So that was our first test flight. I mean to watch not technology and those type of patients were patient that were affected by the opioid epidemic. And I’m not sure if you’re familiar with the opioid epidemic, yes. And that itself, it is the type of treatments that were provided to communities of color and the opiate epidemic was some some point, especially back in the olden days, you were sent to incarceration, right? Because you’re an addict, as opposed to now where when it became it he communities or communities that are nonprofit They began to aqueous treatment centers. That’s what they should have done in the first place, but coming into the scope as well, because we do need that help. And so that’s that’s how we pulled it back. And we started finding out that it is challenging. There’s challenges that come with access to look at access, okay. And those communities, transportation is a big problem, Mom and mom and daughter, mom and daughter has mom has has two daughters, and she has to worry about daycare, and she has to worry about how can I get to care too. And so there were a lot of cancellation of appointments.So like, Okay, why don’t we launch this telehealth work for the web app to be able to address some of those issues, the gap in access to care?Michele: So as so now you’re testing out the telehealth, what are you seeing as far as the changes now in the number of cancellations or the the changes in the number of patients who are being treated once you’ve implemented telehealth,Mohammed: so we After, after we we launched the telehealth we saw about 2500 patients and some of those patients. We also interviewed got a chance to interview them as well. One of the things that we learned from the interviewees, they were super, super busy. Some of the ways that they some of the challenges that they happen to help barrier to healthy, some of them small. So we have smokers, but we have challenges is they don’t have time. They don’t, they don’t have time to be able to come to an in person visit to see a doctor. They also they also spend most of us out there most of the time to get healthy by chasing out their kids, right. So you have to be very creative in bringing wellness to them. Where involves an entire family. So how do you plan for that? So we build our technology with them with those answers in mind that it’s the only access to care why Do a text consult, what is also the what do they need a communities I keep them accountable because that’s what our that’s what we’re hearing. So we created a piece that here you can count your steps with others and stay healthy and then rewarded for those steps. Right? So comes accountability piece. So we get we hear we heard that and then the second piece was, how do we then create a technology that’s embedded within the same platform to be able to correct BMI? Okay, and made up corrected BMI is really taking a 10 second video of yourself. And then instead of me as an African American, that was an athlete, expedition athlete, I was told always that I’m overweight bla compared to my counterparts that are that are location because of my body mass. However, this technology because it’s powered by NASA, it’s corrected that so we have a corrected BMI and virtual assessment, right. So they all know health waist, so this is This is technology that’s normal. That’s exciting and actually talk a little bit in transmission disparity.Michele: I love it, love it correcting what is a standard for all, which was never a standard for all. There were definitely very different what I love about what what you’re doing is gamification and how and actually creating with the demographic that you serve, ways to serve Him that is inclusive to them. So Oh, well, you’re always chasing your children, you’re always doing this. How do we make it fit into your life as opposed to us trying to get you to fit into the technology?Mohammed: That is one of the good thing is in the tech is it we call it a healthy tribe. So that means mom, dad, sister, coworkers all can be part of batch, batch, right? So you guys are willing to belong in that way. And then it’s like, okay, hey, My held tribe and then I was like I’m a caregiver right to my sibling, my sister siblings, and that was included as well. So if you’re a caregiver of your video, grandmother, you can all a mom right? You can actually be put down that mommy’s part of your health tribe as well. You can keep keep their health records in. So it’s like healthcare in one hand, pretty much.Got you.Michele: Okay. That is that is absolutely fantastic. So it’s community like he’s a tribe. It takes a village, his village healthcare, that’s I was trying to get to that word, it was village, healthcare, and absolutely agree. You always see the groups of women were walking together or the groups of men talking together, like how do you get them active as a community as a group as a village, so I’m really excited about that aspect now. So now we’re in the midst of COVID-19 and you are very knowledgeable and experienced in the disparities with people of color when it comes to health care. What are you seeing being done, right? Or treatment or accessibility? And where are where does it need to be some improvement in how people of color doing COVID-19 should should be treated? Mohammed: 
Sure. So we already know that the eggs then there are gaps in healthcare that exist. We COVID-19 we know that the system didn’t address it yet. So COVID-19 just amplify that. Just like in telehealth, it just amplifies the importance of it. And some of the systems that things that exist is access, okay. lack of proper nutrition, food, food insecurity, I exist, right? healthcare, a lack of access to health care exists. So those things that already exists, regardless of previous predisposed, predisposed, all right, meaning that because of the patient, what the conditions were, those already exist if the if the patients have good access to healthy food They will eat well. If they have good access to a hospital, they will likely go so sick here. And they have trusted physicians that actually are advocates for them. They’re going sick. Yeah, well, they don’t have that. Now, a virus happens and this virus, it’s a new, it’s a new strand that we are aware of. Right? It’s a new strand, and we’re trying to figure out how do we then contain it. If you already have disparities, lack of access of care, lack of food is food insecurity. We don’t have good we don’t have good housing, there’s usually a lack of shelter. So those conditions already exist. And with the with the virus, the virus is is human to human touch, right job LED light droplets you can get you can get it and this human human touch, it happens through so so so our brothers and sisters are may not have the perfect conditions to have access actual affordable housing that are then going to be able to get get the fibers and then take them to shelters, right? Take those without the virus or shelters and spread it, it becomes a ripple effect. And that’s, that’s some of the same things we’re seeing in New York. And so we have here Even I spoke to a coalition of ours. Dr. Christian, she, she’s a she’s a family physician, and she takes care of the underserved. So communities of color and others football, the underserved and she in turn, had to switch her practice from a traditional practice of Sinan person to telehealth very quickly. I was I was on the phone with her when this was happening, switching our patients to telehealth. So this is just as you can see more of our mobile patient virtually. But this is the things that we’re noticing that we need more apps access to care. We need better way to take care of our communities that is innovative. But it’s the virus just amplified that there’s a true need and a lack of access to care and food insecurity and affordable housing that is still affecting our communities.Michele: Yes, it’s interesting, not interesting. But you talked about food deserts and our lack of access to food and what that looks like and everybody I’m in rural South Carolina right now truly thinks that food deserts a lack of access to food is only an urban issue and it’s not it is very, very popular also in rural areas having access. So as well as housing, right housing that anybody want to live in, but actually have access to decent housing is very important.Now I want to go intoMohammed: And if I may add, that those those things we call in health care, social determinants of health, right? Those are the things that are that besides just taking care of your well being. Those are all the factors that influence health. And even as of last week, two days ago, I had a I had a friend who texted me she sent me an email, he texted me as well and call me twice that hey, my sister is in our sister lives in Georgia. My sister is in Georgia, right? And she’s been affected by COVID-19. So she’s a COVID-19 patient, she needs access to care. So this is when we and I literally had to do the manual way away going off platform figuring out this well actually actually calling a doctor question to give me a recommendation on very good providers are in health that is out in Atlanta, right. And so now she’s she has a primary care physicians. that’s taken care of her. Well, those that’s the reality that You can have you can have a cover nice efficient like that and don’t have a issue she didn’t have insurance I’m just like how do we then increase get her the care that she needed while rapidlyMichele: and that’s that’s where I was going so right now we’re in the midst of COVID-19 Have you seen more practices from reaching out to you saying hey we need to be able to help our patients we need to be able to help people impacted who are not our patients with without insurance. How do we work with you? What What do you tell them? Mohammed: Yeah, so that’s I get those calls daily now. I don’t know if that’s a blessing in disguise. But literally, I had a call like that I as I explained, I was like, Hey, I’m going to walk with you guys. We call this I call the clinicians go on the app find out find out this clinician is mobile in the area book an appointment with them. Um, we had a we have adult Rab doctors in an hour from now. I’m basis physician that are retired physicians, but there, they also wanted to still make an impact in the community. They live in Virginia. So they called me last week and said, hey, how do we get louder we get access to telehealth and be able to see more of our patients out of retirement, right. And so I’m having a conversation with them and showing them how the platform works, how I can onboard them, right. So this is what COVID-19 is showing that people want to make a difference, no matter where they retire, they want to come out of retirement to really make a change. And I’m just here as a people on the tool to be able to support them.Michele: Absolutely love it. I love the ability for people, us to be able to sue or you to be able to provide and provide services and be the bridge between healthcare providers and patients who actually need it, especially right now doing COVID-19. Now, andMohammed: just highlight that the Virginia that then they that’s a position that’s efficient, the pictures This position and an OB GYN and they’re not then they have their Caucasian as well. So it’s not just computers are full of ethic, that feeling of the page, although users well they fill in the page.Michele: So so that was going to, you know, you’re bridging the gap. So now are you seeing even more physicians who do not serve communities, underserved communities coming to you, and be needing to be able to to provide services to their, their patients?Mohammed: I’m seeing more of it. Um, because I think we have, we have to have things that happen in healthcare. One is physicians that have compassion for communities of color. And then we have advocates as well, right? You can even on color and then be an advocate and surely walk into those environments. And I mean, I have access to those sorts of combinations. And disclude it’s just as also wonderful as well because they’re when then when when we’re not at the table about the table to be Out voice right advocate, not influenced but advocate because the advocate means actually they want to do the fight with us. Um, so they’re there. They’re coming to me pediatricians, infectious disease physician, ob gyn, they’re coming to me to be able to get them on the platform. So I’m seeing an increase of that as well. So not only serving our communities, communities of color, but they’re also serving their communities as well. So it’s deep and deep.Michele: Great. Okay, so let’s talk more about, we talked about the platform, the app, onboarding people, let’s talk about artificial intelligence, the AI behind us, what does that what does the AI do?Mohammed: So really, it’s really cool. I think it’s an exciting technology because in 10, second, literally a 10 second video of you, you can get a virtual assessment and part of that virtual assessment includes your BMI your your health waist, and it’s collected BMI. So as a technologist powered by NASA, it has NASA all good In a machine learning that really in those 10 second upload here in this feedback, a virtual assessment of view of what you truly are, regardless of if you are male or female with body mass, you’re not overweight, it’s actually a corrected while your virtual estimates really should be not just because based on other other factors that are traditional factors. So that that’s an exciting, exciting piece. And I think we recently learned in Brooklyn and that UnitedHealthcare got in trouble because over the AI that proposed supposedly that that that was showing racial disparities, right, and they’re in trouble for that and trying to clean up that mess, keeping keeping minorities or callers from getting the care that they need.Michele: Yeah, if the bias is built in from the beginning, it spreads all through whatever is being it is being utilized for so you have to Go in. And that’s a huge talk discussion going on. Whether it’s bias against women and or people of color that’s built in. And the feedback is, well, we had women on the team is like, if you thought to be inclusive of whoever’s on the team, you would go out at least start talking to people to understand those different intersectionalities of how to do it. And even LGBTQ is getting left out right now, when it comes to COVID-19. SoMohammed: and Michelle, you gotta take it further than that, right? It’s not just been having a sit on a table have been left out. It’s about a person, the developers, the programmers, right, the product managers, because they have the hind side to create and when they create, if they only quit, because of the what looks like them. The sample size that they that they that they have, that is male is sample size from certain only a certain segment of certain communities, then it’s going to influence how the how the technology response, right? Like you have to create a large sample size that that’s more inclusive in nature.Michele: Yeah. And And generally, a lot of places go, Well, we want to target the largest population and sometimes this, that’s not the best way to go, depending on how who has the most needs and who’s going to buy first. But one of the other things is in health tech devices, sometimes they will make things for, let’s say, the male heart first. So if a woman has the same condition, she cannot get the same treatment, because the device is too large, because usually women’s hearts are smaller than men’s hearts. So you see it over and over again. It’s like, Oh, well, it’s a male condition, but women have it too. So it definitely like you said, it’s more for thought about who’s being served. Now, let’s let’s talk about COVID-19 five years from now, at five years after COVID-19 Where do you foresee telehealth and your your company being? Five years? COVID-19? And also what policy changes do you see in healthcare?Mohammed: So, that’s a great question. And there, we have experts there. So my background is I’m an economist, right? So there are experts that that have put out data out there that did win four or five phases of, of the corn COVID-19. Phase One is the phase one is we identify it exists. Phase Two is containment. And phase three is developing some solution on their vaccine, for example, and the widespread of it, right, forcing it into certain communities. Hopefully, it’s not, it’s just everybody’s gonna be able to try it out. I’m not just certain communities. So that’s Those are the phases of how we see this COVID-19 taking place. The old, the old theory, although the thing is just like a cold, a flu, it’s isn’t a light, so it may come back to so we have to keep that in mind. And this kind of led to, hey, we’ve because of COVID-19 we’ve seen why it’s so increasingly important to pay attention to health care workers and support them right. And as well, how do you support them, you support them to have a demand stable, creating technologies that help them so my goal I’m just a partner with enough Caswell partner tool providers, we are partners to patients and we’re making sure that what true health creates true healthcare is a relationship is relationship medicine, right? That’s true healthcare. It’s between the patient and a provider. We’re just connecting the dots for them. So fast forward from now is weird. need to have it policies in place. And now because of COVID-19. Some of the policies I’ve kind of been drilled down a bit around reimbursement around credentialing. When I say credentialing that means can a provider be able to see someone that is in Ohio, even though they may not have a Ohio license, right? Those those things need to continue to be inflated costs COVID-19. And reimbursement is I am going as a clinician, if I’m a doctor, I’m Senior virtually and we’re having a conversation. Right now. I’m going to be paid the same amount as I will be paid in person, right. Usually that is not acknowledged is not the case in telehealth. So we those policies need to be in place and change to be effective for five years from now. telehealth does exist. Well, now we’ve seen the increased importance for you.Michele: Yes, absolutely. Agree. definitely definitely have have some policy changes. Because you have states that have fewer doctors than others for these, but they can’t service them even in telehealth, you have it close to disparity, you still have huge disparity. So yeah, so licensing is definitely a big issue. If we can’t, at least at least we do neighboring states, something to help help along that process. How can people find you who want to either find a clinician in their area or maybe their clinician looking to provide their services during COVID-19 or post COVID-19. Mohammed: So we’re on the Android arm and we’re also on iOS releasing iOS versions as well. So we’re gonna be on iOS two so we can be found on the App Store. You can reach out to me directly contact us at info If kids calm, that’s our email. I will also host a podcast to the empowered patient podcast, which is released on a weekly basis. And we bring in clinicians who are experts in different fields and different specialties and talk with them and also technologists as well and intrapreneurs. So it’s really a safe environment to be able to learn things about healthcare. Yeah, that affects you on a daily basis. We talked recently to a clinician who is an NP and is affected by COVID-19. And we noticed that because of COVID-19, there’s an increased demand for care, right? So the old patients that already have chronic diseases, they’re not even coming into the office all day that it’s like, there’s glitches to take care of those patients. They also have to take care of COVID-19 patients and so there’s an overburden of them. That’s the reason why it’s so so important. And for all it’s really useful also bridge that gap between By here via tag. So we can be found in Oh, and third, another another source of founders is, in August of this year, July, August, there’ll be a release of the book called empower patients, which is the name of the podcast in their power podcast. They publish a podcast so the book will be released and will the book really just tells you about things you can do as far as wellness is concerned. And also bringing in a coma in a way that we some of the patients that we saw, that were affected medic opiate epidemic, bringing in those patients experience so that you can actually relate to them and feel inspired. So that book is coming out here in July. Michele: So just to get this straight, you can go to the website, you can go to the app store, you can go to podcasts, and if you want some great reading August, you will have the book to it. Okay, so Yeah, I would guess yeah you’re on social media too.Mohammed: Oh yeah, yeah we are so we are now at um so I in Ovi care as you know, cares. We’re on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter and ice. So any social media platform where there were philosophize? The The, the podcast is concerned when it platforms podcast platforms and also you can listen to the podcast on our website too. So we have a section there we have one blog section today you can be able to look look at resources that pretend to you about wellness.Michele: Well, Mohammed, thank you so much for joining us. We as a world right is not a country is not a state or city as the we’re all going through this together as we all combat COVID-19 I commend the work that you and your company are doing with telehealth to close the gap for people who needs health care services, whether they have the virus, or they have other medical needs, because it’s truly, truly needed not only now but it’s needed in communities that are aren’t often served.So thank you for joining me and everybody. I hope you have a great day and we will talk to you later.

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Michele: Welcome, everybody for another edition Today we have with us, Shane koja. So welcome Shane.Shane:Hi, how are you, Michelle?Michele:I’m good. Shane is a mult, a serial entrepreneur. She has a new tech startup called thrive. And I am so excited to have her on, because she’s going to share not only her new business thrive, but also her journey to getting here, and all of her other businesses. So, welcome, welcome. It’s so exciting to have you here. Thank you. Can you tell us how did you get started as an entrepreneur?Shane:Well, I think that story starts from a very young age, because we were a displaced family. And I came from what was a wealthy background. But when my parents moved as refugees, they literally moved with two suitcases of clothing. And so we started from the bottom up, we lived in a three bedroom apartment, three families, each family had a bedroom, and we bought a little grocery store, and I was the eldest. So I was always helping my father labeling tins serving the older people delivering and so it’s in my blood.Michele:So when you think back to that time, what do you see as as unique skill set that has helped you be successful at this point in your life?Shane:So I think, Michelle, that’s a great question. I think at the time, you know, I was a little bit
you know, sad that I couldn’t do some of the extracurricular activities that other people did, you know, ballet elocution piano that was like, much later on in life. So you know, my extracurricular activities, were learning about business, how to work a cash machine, you know,
doing stock taking and stuff like that. But what that also taught me was, you know, the importance of hard work of perseverance of persistence. It allowed me to speak to the customers and really develop those social skills of engaging with people, and really understanding their needs. And once I didn’t understand it, then, but many years on now, as I get the gray is in my hair, I can see the value of that.Michele: Yes, um, a lot of parents seem to think they lose their children lose something. And when they have a business and the kids, kids, we always see this as losing something. But coming from a small business background as well. Um, I gained more from it, I think, I have to say, and even my bosses have seen my work ethic different than those who didn’t, you know, weren’t brought up in a small business with our parents.Shane:Yeah, I think, you know, some of the research, Michelle backs this up, that children actually look at what their parents do. So they see their parents work hard read, play music, persevere, etc. They build those traits.Michele: Absolutely.
Okay. When, um, what advice would you give to somebody who is thinking about becoming an entrepreneur?Shane:entrepreneurship isn’t for everyone. But it is certainly a great way to earn a living. I think I give just more generic advice. One is, everything is possible. You know, so many of us grow up thinking, I’m not good enough. I won’t get the money. Maybe it’s not a good idea. We’re always second guessing ourselves. So I’d say take the blinkers off. And think with a more positive light. It is a fact that if you are a woman, if you are a woman of color, and in my case, even if you’re a little bit older, it’s that much harder. There are biases, there are barriers. And there will be times when you will get rejection, and there will be disappointment. But I think that the one thing that I would really like to share with people is that when those things happen to me, I use that fuel at from a sort of yearning point of view like
I’m going to beat this. And in a way I felt, I feel that I took away the joy from the pursuit, I would advise people to use that disappointment and rejection to fuel the joy for working towards what they’re trying to do and actually enjoy the journey. Because ultimately, it’s about the journey, all the people you meet the things you do, and you let it’s how you grow. Absolutely agree, it is definitely how you grow. Let’s dive into your current venture, which is thrive. Can you let everybody know what is thrive?
Sure, thrive is a platform that aggregates everything that caregivers and seniors need on one platform. And it’s critical sort of service is this idea of checking in with your senior on the go on the move and capturing their mood. The reason being that caregivers often these are informal caregivers, right? daughters, granddaughters, etc, who are busy doing their daily work and managing their families don’t always have the time to call their parents straight away. And this is a good way of them to be able to make sure that their parent is up with their daily routine. And there’s no hiccups and that they’re feeling good. They see a message where they haven’t checked in or the mood is bad, then they can actually react and mitigate any risk early on.Michele: What are some myths that you’ve heard when it comes to seniors in technology? Let’s start there. But everybody’s like a technology.Shane:So you know that there is this sort of stereotypical belief that older people don’t like technology, and they won’t touch it. Now, it’s a very broad spectrum. And there are the people that find technology difficult and will not address it. But the largest segment is the 50 Plus, that is growing. And so I think the stats go that 65 plus year olds, 70% of them will have a device and use it, the minute you get to 75 years old, it drops to 49%. And then at 85 years old, it goes down to about 20%. So I think it is a real myth. And for many seniors, they recognize that technology can help them. I think, where the actual pain point is, is that there’s very little technology that’s made with the seniors, lens in mind. So Facebook is for everybody, whether you’re seven or 70.Right.
And the smartphone screen is the same, there’s very little done that’s specific for older peopleMichele: agree. Now what are myths when it comes to the caregiver, or for seniors?Shane:So, you know, I think that there’s this sort of societal code that obviously caring for your parent is something you should be doing correctly, and that it should be joyful, and, you know, a privilege and all of that, especially in my culture, which is the Indian culture, you know, nobody would say God, I hate looking after my mom, right. And nobody really does hate it. But the fact of the matter is that if you’re trying to juggle work Korea, children, husband, and parents, and the shopping and the cleaning, you know, you’re going to break. And a lot of the research is showing that, you know, 60 70% of caregivers are actually in poorer health as a result of their caregiving duties. So think this idea of, you know, it’s easy, you’re just checking in it really is a myth. And and there are closed groups where people that are in this situation can vent privately because, you know,
society they can’t they can’t say that.
What do you wish you had known about creating thrive?
When you started out?
You know, I think that with thrive, it’s been something that came out of my own experience. So I think of myself as a good daughter that’s always looked after my mother. And despite my calling a two or three times a day, there was a day when she spent eight hours on the floor.
And that was just the most terrible day of my life because I felt so helpless, so accomplished yet so helpless.
And I wish I had known that this was a bigger problem at that time, because I spent so long just feeling so badly for myself. Before I actually embarked on researching this and talking to other people, because this is not a topic that people often speak about. It’s not dinner party or cocktail party conversation.Michele: Yeah, it really isn’t. We often feel as though we’re going through this alone, because nobody else is talking about it. So you must be the only one experiencing it in its opposite way.Shane:Exactly. And I think, you know, the other thing is that, think about how competitive the work places today, right? So you know, as a woman, you feel even less able to speak about this. It was really interesting that I did a focus group with men and women. And I actually had a couple of men break down in that focus group. Because, you know, there were a bunch of issues that they were dealing with, they were never going to get married because they were otherwise inclined. You know, their parents didn’t get that. And they had that pressure and the caregiving pressure. And it was interesting that once you gave permission to, to speak about it, it became something that they could actually objectively begin to handle. So, you know, I think that’s why with thrive, whilst I explain that one, functionality, it is a platform, because it’s where we want to curate everything, that a caregiver in a senior needs, so that we can make sure that that last phase of life is as good as the baby being born.Michele: But you know, yeah, yeah, it’s, it’s interesting, um, a lot of people too often see the daughter or a woman being a caregiver. And there are a lot of men who have sons who take that role, especially today. So it’s, it’s good that you brought it up?Shane:No, and there’s hopefully a Harvard study going to be published soon. That is talking about C suite CEOs actually taking sabbaticals to look after their parent.
Which is great, I think, I think it’s great that they can do it, but not everyone’s privileged to be able to
do that.Michele: And I want to talk about that as well, when it comes to be able to take care of our parents. What does that look like in today’s workplace? So are they giving options or benefits? Or employees who can’t take a sabbatical to take care of their take care of their parents?Shane:so sadly, Michelle, the The short answer to that is no. There are a few forward looking organizations, you know, like eBay and Accenture and so forth, that will give you eldercare leave. If there’s been an incident, they’ll give you six weeks of paid leave, much like maternity leave type stuff. But the majority of organizations do not provide this. And that’s why it’s so many times people have to take time off. They’re absent, you know, they eventually even leave their jobs because it’s just too difficult to manage juggling all of it. And that is a massive cost to employers, it amounts to something like $38.2 billion a year. And additionally, you know, not giving care and leaving seniors isolated and lonely deteriorates their health, which is costing another 7 billion a year.Michele: That’s that’s a huge financial costs. A huge financial cost. Yeah.
We’re in the midst of COVID-19. Yeah. What should employers be aware of when it comes to their employees who are caregivers right now, what are some things they should be considering? They should be asking? They should be providing to their employees who are caregivers.Shane:So I think that the first thing Michelle here is compassion and understanding. I’m not even sure that many employee employers know what their employee situation is. So I think that’s first and foremost. I think the second thing is that many cases givers are going through a very distraught period of time. Either they’ve got a loved one in assisted living or a care home, or they’re living alone at distance. And it’s really hard for them to keep tabs on what’s happening and keeping connected. So I recently found through my research that some of the larger firms, they pay something like $23,000 a year for a package of benefits for their employees, but they don’t allow the employees to pick and choose the benefits they want. So you might have a benefit for I don’t know, nursery school, but you don’t need nursery school, you need eldercare. So maybe you need daycare or, you know, for a senior or something like that. So think it’s really important for employers to wise up to this. What is going to happen, though, is that over the next decade, we’re going to have fewer employees actually in the workforce, because, you know, Millennials that came out early late bloomers had kids, less, fewer kids, you know, later in life. And so therefore, if you are an employer, and you are not providing these benefits, you’re going to lose a lot of talent. And that talent will likely stay with employers that are taking care of those things. So I think this will be forced upon employees and employers, but it’s a question of getting ahead of it. And I think COVID sorry, to interrupt you in a shot, I think COVID has been terrific because it’s shine a light on aging in a different way. You know,Michele: I absolutely agree, it has shone a light on aging, and a lot of different other disparities of employers, or even the world doesn’t talk about enough and really haven’t made changes.Shane:I’m like, and I mean, I think you’ve got to think about the fact that you know, a lot of these employee benefits, I’m talking about middle and senior management. Yeah. But think about the workforce that’s, you know, working at some of the more sort of the supermarket chains, the sort of mechanics, you know, gas stations, etc. Those individuals, yes, they can do shift work. But they are like you and me, they have the same responsibilities, exact, and they need support and navigating the whole medicaid medicare system is crazy. I mean, you know, even with three degrees, I find it difficult. So, I don’t know.Michele: It is, it is interesting, I’ll put it this way. I’ve heard my mother on the phone, with her insurance and on the phone with her pharmacy, and are saying different things about why she couldn’t even get her medication. And her having say, hold up, I have one phone, let’s get up. Let’s all get together. And they’re like, Huh, are we gonna settle? So, so she literally just like, you know what, I’m tired of going back and forth, uh, you changing your story every time she like, got to get it straight this because she needs her medication. So you write it, it takes.Shane:And I think, you know, in my sort of one thing I’m guilty of is thinking about things in an ecosystem way I say I dream in Technicolor. Because when I look at this, you know, think about the pharmaceutical industry. Think about the provider industry, right? Think about the government industry, like the incentives are wrong, right? You’re getting paid to treat people with thrive, what I want to do is keep people healthy. So you don’t have to treat them right. And I’m trying to change the mindset to say, okay, insurer, cover this. You know, when somebody turns 65, give them a subscription to thrive. For 150 bucks a year, you’re going to make sure that even if you start one ER visit, you’re going to say 10 $15,000 Plus, right, it just makes sense. And I think the models need to change because it’s unsustainable, the way it’s going,Michele: I think is going to come, especially through this pandemic. It may take something else along the way because you know, people tend to forget. But yeah, it will. We’ll see. During this pandemic, more healthcare tech companies like yours, come into play, be very successful, and really start turning the health care, elder care and go
And entities around So, and whether it’s privacy policies to tell a hell to smart devices that are able to then share information on how to do preventative care, as opposed to?Shane:Yeah. I mean, that’s what I would love to see. Right, you know, something that I’ve toyed with is this, you know, social impact bond type of model where you actually get paid by capitation. Right. So, I would happily take a capitation model to say, okay, of these 10,000 elders, if I save so many costs, you pay me x. Right. And I would love to do that. And I think most millennials today would, would find that purposeful ambition really rewarding.Michele: Absolutely agree. Absolutely agree. The, it should be more of a reward, and the penalties the wrong place and rewards thrown. Exactly.Shane:Yeah.Michele: Where do you see and we kind of talked about this, where do you see thrive in five years, post COVID.Shane:So I would Well, first start, I’d want to be profitable, I want to have impacted in excess of 50,000 lives by five years. And although this is a business that is global, I’m focusing on the US market, but because I’ve lived globally, I’m Canadian and British citizen, I’ve worked in all these countries. So I would like to see it sort of spread globally. Yeah. And I’d like to spend a little bit of time focusing on the Middle East as well, because a lot of people don’t understand this market. And I do. And so I’d love to pull that market up into it, too.
It’s not so much a ambition that’s all around sort of the money or the unicorn, but it’s around making the difference, you know, changing the mindsets. But I do understand that, you know, you’ve got to put food on the table for the people that work for you. And for yourself. So that’s the profitable piece of it.Michele:It’s all about the process of where you were to make the money first get the revenue in, and then shifting gears to grow into other markets to make impact. Absolutely, I understand that. Good. But I absolutely get it. Now we’re post COVID. Um,
what are resources caregivers can use, that will help them in the process, whether it’s during COVID, or post COVID.Shane:So there are several groups that caregivers can can go to. So what one is working daughters as a Facebook group called working daughters, which has very good advice, it’s a private group, so you have to apply to it. There are also several websites, around caregiving around daily caregiving around sort of managing your seniors, finances, and bills, etc. So I think those are good places to go to. And there are a handful. So it’s not like you’re going to get 1000 hits. And you can get good information from there. And then there are obviously technology companies that are providing a variety of solutions not just thrive, but there are others. It just depends on the price point that is right for you. So there’s everything from cameras and sensors, to you know, software downloads without a tablet, right, you use your own device, but there are tablets that you can buy that are pre populated that do little bits and pieces as well. So this is a market that is growing and disrupting already. I think COVID is really kind of fine tuning it, which is great. Yeah, absolutely.Michele: How can people find out more about thriving, maybe probably joining in, especially during COVID, and more about you and connecting with you.Shane:So basically visit the website, which is www dot thrive dash community.com. To learn about thrive and through there. You can also contact me through the info at thrive community.com
and Google me. I’m also totally available through LinkedIn and that I love talking to other entrepreneurs and people going through various journeys. It’s been my life’s passion. So I’ll never turn someone down.Michele: Thank you So much shame for joining today. Everybody. eldercare is very important. We’re in the midst of COVID-19. And I and I have a feeling and we didn’t even talk about this, um, culturally, especially here in the US for black and Hispanic families, being able to go and help physically in person help our elders is often what we do. And this is anti intuitive to us culturally, like staying away and you can’t go do anything has been very, very difficult.Shane:So I think for both parties, for the caregiver and the senior, it’s a lonely scary, fearful time. SoMichele:yeah, so definitely check out thrive, it may be a great option for you and your elder to stay connected during COVID my nephew’s birthday is today, and my mom’s like, I want you to do the face thing so I can see him. So, um, and he was like, wait, Granny, how did you do this? Like, oh, you’re on Michelle did it.So definitely, definitely take. They want to use the technology, my mom 72. So they want to use the technology to stay connected. So thank you, again, Shane. Everybody, be sure to check out thrive as a great option to stay connected with the elder in your family to help them so that it helps you as well. I’ll talk to you next time.
Thank you. You’re welcome.