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Season Two of Divergent States is about something simple and surprisingly rare: exploring altered states without losing touch with reality.
In this preview episode, 3L1T3 and Bryan share two short moments from upcoming conversations that define the tone of the season ahead.
In the first, Shane Mauss reflects on how psychedelics open people to awe—but also to certainty, conspiracies, and belief systems that can replace reality if no one pushes back. In the second, Cesar Marin explains why presence and human connection are the real work of integration, not endless chasing of peak experiences.
Together, these moments capture what Divergent States has always tried to do: hold space for wonder without drifting into delusion, depth without losing grounding, and exploration rooted in real human connection.
Patreon supporters get extended versions of these conversations, including sections that don’t survive algorithm-friendly edits. But this preview is here for everyone—because harm reduction, presence, and honest conversation shouldn’t be paywalled.
Welcome to Season Two.
Chapters
00:00 – Welcome back & season context
Introducing Season Two and why this year matters.
00:28 – What Divergent States actually is
What the show is: harm reduction, not hype or spiritual theater.
01:05 – Shane Mauss: Awe, science, and belief systems
The “ghost crocodile” and microscope analogy.
04:49 – Why psychedelics create both insight and delusion
Reflections on pattern-seeking and certainty in psychedelic spaces.
05:20 – Cesar Marin: Presence as integration
Connection, mushrooms, and staying grounded in real life.
07:17 – The power of daily human connection
Kids, texts, meditation, and showing up.
08:55 – What Divergent States is really about
Awe without delusion; depth without losing touch.
09:15 – Patreon & how to support the show
Extended cuts, deeper conversations, and why it matters.
10:10 – Harm reduction & Zendo Project
Why we partner with them and what the code supports.
10:50 – Closing & Season Two welcome
Personal sign-off and transition into the new season.
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Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon!
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Dennis McKenna joins 3L1T3 and Valerie Beltran to discuss the future of psychedelics, indigenous knowledge, and whether we are ready to bring these tools into mainstream culture without repeating the extractive patterns of the past. We explore the gap between good intentions and real reciprocity, what Western psychedelic enthusiasm is missing, and how community-based practice may matter more than clinical models alone.
We also dive into the first biomedical study of ayahuasca with the UDV, how long-term members showed surprising changes in behavior and biology, and why the community structure may have played a larger role than the compound itself. Dennis talks about the work happening at the McKenna Academy, preserving Amazonian herbarium collections, digitizing ancestral plant knowledge, and the ESPD Symposia.
This conversation calls out the cultural side of psychedelics, not just the science. If psychedelics are going to help, they must be integrated with wisdom, not just technology.
Join our Patreon for the exclusive extended interview!
Key Points
Chapters
00:00 Welcome to the season finale with Valerie
01:10 Who Dennis McKenna is and why he still matters
04:50 What still feels unresolved after 50 years
06:15 Co-optation, capitalism, and indigenous knowledge
09:00 The ESPD symposia and preserving ancestral knowledge
12:40 Biognosis and digitizing Amazonian herbarium archives
17:00 Why preserving knowledge matters more than artifacts
18:35 The first biomedical study of ayahuasca with the UDV
22:45 Behavioral change, alcoholism, and community support
24:40 Serotonin transporter findings and biological mechanisms
27:30 Neuroplasticity and long-term structural change
31:00 Microdosing vs macro experiences
33:20 Default mode network and stepping outside the self
36:20 Separation from nature and cultural disconnection
38:30 Technology, AI, and cultural fragmentation
42:20 What real reciprocity might look like
46:50 Avoiding cultural appropriation and extraction
50:00 Psychedelics entering clinical models
52:45 Mushrooms as ideal symbiotic partners
56:00 Future of psychedelics in 10 years
01:00:20 Ibogaine as global brain reset
01:04:00 Evolution, partnership, and species symbiosis
01:06:00 Closing thoughts
Thanks to Dyl👽Alien for the music!
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Love the podcast? Help keep the conversations going by checking out our official merch shop! We've got t-shirts, hoodies, hats, mugs, stickers, and more, with new designs added regularly.
Every purchase helps support independent, honest conversations about psychedelics, science, and culture.
Shop now: https://divergent-states-shop.fourthwall.com/
FiresideProject.org
Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE
Support the show
Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon!
https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod
In this episode of Divergent States, 3L1T3 sits down with Betty Aldworth, the new co-president of MAPS, as she steps into shared leadership with Ismail Ali following Rick Doblin’s four-decade run.
Betty brings decades of experience in drug policy reform, from Colorado’s 2012 cannabis legalization campaign to leading Students for Sensible Drug Policy, and now helps guide MAPS through one of the movement’s most pivotal moments: the FDA’s rejection of Lycos Therapeutics’ MDMA-assisted therapy application.
We unpack the tension between science and advocacy, urgency and rigor, and explore what real access means for people living with PTSD. Betty offers a candid, emotionally grounded look at the FDA’s critique, the role of stigma, and how MAPS plans to keep pushing forward through education, policy, and global research initiatives.
Later, the conversation turns to the larger movement: political support from both sides of the aisle, state-level reform models, and MAPS’ upcoming 40th anniversary in 2026.
Key Points
⏱ Chapter Markers
00:00 – Intro — Bryan’s stage play, today’s guest: Betty Aldworth
02:00 – MAPS’ new leadership and legacy after Rick Doblin
05:00 – Betty on stepping into the role and the three MAPS pillars
08:00 – From activism to leadership — lessons from SSDP
11:45 – Balancing research, advocacy, and education
14:00 – FDA rejection letter — what really happened
16:00 – “Positive adverse events” and the question of abuse potential
22:30 – Durability of treatment and COVID-era data gaps
26:30 – Prior MDMA experience and bias — myth or factor?
29:20 – Politics, science, and the credibility dilemma
32:30 – RFK Jr., AOC, and politicization of psychedelics
35:00 – Echoes of the 1980s scheduling fight
36:20 – What comes next — Phase III, audits, and resilience
38:30 – MAPS’ evolving research priorities & global work
41:00 – Normalization, decriminalization, and stigma
43:45 – Science vs activism — carrying both forward
48:00 – State-level reform and slow federal process
50:30 – Cannabis rescheduling and broader reform
52:00 – A message to people living with PTSD
55:00 – MAPS’ 40th anniversary — what’s ahead
57:00 – Closing reflections — stay weird, keep exploring
Thanks to Dyl👽Alien for the music!
Send us Fan Mail
Love the podcast? Help keep the conversations going by checking out our official merch shop! We've got t-shirts, hoodies, hats, mugs, stickers, and more, with new designs added regularly.
Every purchase helps support independent, honest conversations about psychedelics, science, and culture.
Shop now: https://divergent-states-shop.fourthwall.com/
FiresideProject.org
Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE
Support the show
Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon!
https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod
Dr. Bronner’s Cosmic Engagement Officer David Bronner joins Divergent States for a candid, nuts-and-bolts conversation about building an “All One” company culture, pushing for psychedelic policy reform, and rewiring global supply chains to be fair, transparent, and regenerative. We trace the lineage from Rainbow Gatherings to Burning Man, from hemp activism to MAPS, and from commodity brokers to farmer-first vertical integration. Co-host therapist Valerie Beltran helps press on the tradeoffs: regulated access versus decriminalization, mission versus financing, growth versus grassroots.
Key points
If this conversation resonated, follow the show on Spotify/Apple, leave a short review, and consider supporting the work on Patreon to keep community-driven media independent.
Special thanks to Sandbgz for the music! Follow him on Spotify!
00:00 – Intro & Setup
02:00 – From Burning Man to the Mic
04:35 – Origins & Rainbow Gathering Roots
06:25 – The All One God Faith Legacy
10:25 – Sourcing as Activism
15:20 – Mission Financing & the Purpose Pledge
17:35 – Building Roots & Staying Grounded
22:30 – Why Risk Psychedelic Advocacy
28:30 – Early Activism & the Hemp Wars
33:00 – Meeting Rick Doblin at Burning Man
37:00 – Decrim, Churches & Community Access
39:15 – Pitfalls & Lawsuits
40:30 – Choosing Battles & Lessons from Oregon 110
42:45 – Integration & Regenerative Organic Agriculture
46:45 – From Vision to Action
51:55 – Balancing Perfection & Pragmatism
55:45 – Longevity over Hype
1:01:00 – Heaven on Earth & Deep Time
1:03:45 – Brotherhood of Eternal Love & Rainbow Bridge
1:08:30 – Closing Reflections
1:12:00 – Outro & Patreon Call to Action
Send us Fan Mail
Love the podcast? Help keep the conversations going by checking out our official merch shop! We've got t-shirts, hoodies, hats, mugs, stickers, and more, with new designs added regularly.
Every purchase helps support independent, honest conversations about psychedelics, science, and culture.
Shop now: https://divergent-states-shop.fourthwall.com/
FiresideProject.org
Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE
Support the show
Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon!
https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod
Psychedelics are no longer the fringe—they’re reshaping medicine, culture, and consciousness itself.
In this episode of Divergent States, 3L1T3 and Bryan sit down with Joe Moore, co-founder and CEO of Psychedelics Today, to explore the messy evolution of the movement: from the chaotic 1960s to today’s corporate clinics and grassroots revival.
They trace Psychedelics Today’s origins, dive into the Vital training program, and discuss what it means to build trust in a scene that still distrusts institutions. Joe shares insight into the next decade of psychedelic science—AI-assisted molecule discovery, new drugs entering clinical trials, and the fading of old stigmas—and the risks of turning medicine into marketing.
Along the way, they talk Leary and McKenna, ketamine cults, LSD alchemy, and the underground traditions worth preserving.
The result is a grounded, forward-looking conversation about authenticity, ethics, and the future of altered states.
Key Points Covered
🎙️ Joe Moore joins r/Psychonaut for an AMA on October 9, 2025!
🎧 Support the show and hear the Patreon-only “Trip Stories & Cosmic Jokes” bonus segment at patreon.com/divergentstates
Special thanks to SndBagz for the music!
00:00 – Intro / Bryan returns / Reggie Watts recap / Season 2 preview
04:16 – Meeting Joe Moore / Origins of Psychedelics Today
07:30 – Building a new media voice beyond academic monoculture
08:46 – Lessons from the 1960s and the cult of personality
12:00 – “Don’t Worship the Substance” – The Danger of Psychedelic Deification
13:30 – Unsung Heroes: Shulgins, Dr. Z, Grof & Leonard Pickard
15:00 – Repeating Old Mistakes: Ketamine Overuse and Media Myths
17:40 – “Is Anyone Driving the Bus?” – Who Really Controls Psychedelics Today
20:30 – Can Clinical Models Honor Mystical Experiences?
23:00 – Psychedelic Journalism: Objectivity vs Calling Bullshit
25:30 – Inside Vital – Redefining Psychedelic Training
28:30 – Teaching Mysticism to Therapists
31:00 – Building Trust in a Culture Skeptical of Business
37:30 – The Next Decade – Five Psychedelics Likely to Be Legalized
43:30 – Harm Reduction & Testing Culture
46:00 – The LSD Philosopher’s Stone – Energy, Alchemy & Intention
49:00 – Patreon Teaser – Trip Stories & Cosmic Humor
55:00 – Wrap-Up w/ Bryan – Breathwork, Culture & Community
59:00 – Closing – Future Guests, Patreon & Discord Invite
Send us Fan Mail
Love the podcast? Help keep the conversations going by checking out our official merch shop! We've got t-shirts, hoodies, hats, mugs, stickers, and more, with new designs added regularly.
Every purchase helps support independent, honest conversations about psychedelics, science, and culture.
Shop now: https://divergent-states-shop.fourthwall.com/
FiresideProject.org
Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE
Support the show
Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon!
https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod
Psychedelics are often framed as creativity boosters, but that’s not exactly what’s happening.
In this conversation with Reggie Watts, we explore what psychedelics actually do to the creative process, from removing self-judgment to unlocking flow states and dissolving the internal filters that normally shape how we think and create.
Reggie shares how different substances affect improvisation, why dissociatives offer a unique kind of creative space, and how altered states can shift the way we experience music, performance, and collaboration. Along the way, we get into ego, flow, and what it really means to “tap into” creativity—both with and without psychedelics.
This isn’t about becoming more creative. It’s about understanding what’s already there—and what’s getting in the way.
⏱️ Chapter Markers
🎵 Thanks to Sndbagz for the music!
https://on.soundcloud.com/rbYppKLjmcdWUBSrqQ
Send us Fan Mail
Love the podcast? Help keep the conversations going by checking out our official merch shop! We've got t-shirts, hoodies, hats, mugs, stickers, and more, with new designs added regularly.
Every purchase helps support independent, honest conversations about psychedelics, science, and culture.
Shop now: https://divergent-states-shop.fourthwall.com/
FiresideProject.org
Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE
Support the show
Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon!
https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod
History shows politics can make or break psychedelic medicine, will we repeat the 1960s backlash, or finally move forward?
In this episode of Divergent States, we explore the uneasy intersection of psychedelics and politics. MDMA remains a Schedule I drug—classified as dangerous with no medical use—while at the same time advancing through FDA Phase III trials. This contradiction highlights the limbo psychedelics face today: criminalized on one side, medicalized on the other.
We revisit the lessons of the 1960s, when political backlash ended promising psychedelic research for decades, and compare them to today’s fast-changing landscape. With figures like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. championing psychedelic medicine, the risk of partisan branding looms large. Can the psychedelic renaissance avoid being reduced to culture war ammunition?
From Oregon and Colorado’s legalization models to global perspectives like Australia’s, we unpack the fragile future of access, safety, and legitimacy. And we emphasize why independent media, grassroots communities, and diverse voices are essential to keeping psychedelics rooted in healing rather than political agendas.
🔑 Key Points
Chapters
00:00 – The Psychedelic Contradiction
MDMA is Schedule I and in FDA Phase III trials — the legal/medical limbo.
02:00 – Why Politics Are Dangerous
Why Divergent States avoids partisan debates, and how culture wars derail progress.
06:30 – Lessons from the 1960s
How Timothy Leary, Nixon, and the War on Drugs shut down decades of psychedelic science.
09:45 – The Risk of Polarization
RFK Jr., vaccines, and how associating psychedelics with a single figure fuels backlash.
15:00 – Fragile Legitimacy
Medical, cultural, and political legitimacy — and how easily it can collapse.
20:20 – Can Psychedelics Unite Us?
Hope for bipartisan support, parallels with cannabis legalization.
24:00 – Global Models & Access
Oregon vs. Colorado, Australia’s legalization, and fears of a two-tiered system.
27:30 – Grassroots vs. Corporate Paths
Safety concerns with “gas station mushrooms,” microdosing hype, and corporate oversight.
31:00 – Pop Culture & Microdosing
South Park satire, normalization, and the line between humor and harm.
32:30 – Why Independent Media Matters
Keeping psychedelics above politics and rooted in science, healing, and community.
New Music from Sndbagz - check out his new EP "Chosen Path" on Soundcloud and Spotify
Check out the accompanying Substack Article:
https://divergentstates.substack.com/p/psychedelics-beyond-politics
Send us Fan Mail
Love the podcast? Help keep the conversations going by checking out our official merch shop! We've got t-shirts, hoodies, hats, mugs, stickers, and more, with new designs added regularly.
Every purchase helps support independent, honest conversations about psychedelics, science, and culture.
Shop now: https://divergent-states-shop.fourthwall.com/
FiresideProject.org
Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE
Support the show
Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon!
https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod
In this episode of Divergent States, we sit down with Kabir Nath, CEO of Compass Pathways, and Dr. Steve Levine, Chief Patient Officer, to talk about the future of psychedelic medicine. From FDA approval and insurance coverage to patient access, cultural safety, and patents, we dig into whether Compass is truly disrupting the pharma model or just reinventing it.
We also share a major community update: the official Divergent States Discord is now open to all of r/Psychonaut. Built by Brady and the mod team, the server is a space for harm reduction, trip reports, deep dives, and authentic connection across the psychedelic movement.
As always, this conversation is about asking the real questions without corporate PR filters. What Compass shared — and what they left unsaid — reveals as much about the future of psilocybin therapy as the answers themselves.
👉 Join the movement: connect on Discord, support independent media on Patreon, and be part of the conversation.
https://discord.gg/swPwT6ZYun
Key Points
Chapters
00:00 – Intro: Setting the frame for Compass Pathways
01:30 – Community Update: Divergent States Discord opens for r/Psychonaut
09:30 – Guest Intros: Kabir Nath & Dr. Steve Levine of Compass Pathways
11:20 – Kabir on moving from pharma to psychedelics
12:30 – Steve on ketamine clinics & new models of care
14:15 – What “success” looks like for patients
16:00 – COM360 psilocybin therapy: synthetic vs. natural & the role of therapy
17:30 – How Compass plans to deliver psilocybin in different care settings
18:40 – Patient hopes, fears, and the path to access
20:00 – FDA approval, insurance, and affordability
21:00 – Cultural safety, trauma-informed design, and community input
21:45 – Indigenous engagement & staying “in their lane”
24:15 – The next 5–10 years of psychedelic treatment
26:10 – What could derail psychedelic medicine’s promise
28:10 – Compass’ place in the broader psychedelic ecosystem
29:50 – Outro: Independent media reflections & listener call to action
New Music from Sndbagz - check out his new EP "Chosen Path" on Soundcloud and Spotify
https://open.spotify.com/artist/0T1LU2nJ9ibGIU3Bxin2X6
https://soundcloud.com/user-918755844
Send us Fan Mail
Love the podcast? Help keep the conversations going by checking out our official merch shop! We've got t-shirts, hoodies, hats, mugs, stickers, and more, with new designs added regularly.
Every purchase helps support independent, honest conversations about psychedelics, science, and culture.
Shop now: https://divergent-states-shop.fourthwall.com/
FiresideProject.org
Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE
Support the show
Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon!
https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod
In this episode of Divergent States, host 3L1T3 and co-host Bryan sit down with Paul F. Austin, founder of The Third Wave and the Psychedelic Coaching Institute.
We dive deep into microdosing psychedelics, intentional use for peak performance, and the rise of psychedelic coaching as a professional path. Paul shares insights from his book Mastering Microdosing, his vision for conscious entrepreneurship, and how psychedelics are reshaping the way we think about healing, creativity, and human potential.
If you’re curious about LSD or psilocybin microdosing, psychedelic integration, or building a career in the psychedelic space, this episode is packed with actionable takeaways and inspiring perspectives.
🔑 Key Topics & Takeaways:
⏱️ Chapters:
0:00 – Welcome to Divergent States with 3L1T3 & Bryan
2:15 – Introducing Paul F. Austin & The Third Wave
5:30 – How Paul discovered psychedelics and microdosing
10:42 – The benefits of microdosing for focus, creativity & emotional balance
18:20 – Psychedelic coaching: What it is and why it’s growing
27:55 – Lessons from building The Third Wave & conscious entrepreneurship
36:10 – Integration, safety, and intentional psychedelic use
44:15 – The future of psychedelics, careers, and community
52:30 – Closing thoughts & how to connect with Paul
Send us Fan Mail
Love the podcast? Help keep the conversations going by checking out our official merch shop! We've got t-shirts, hoodies, hats, mugs, stickers, and more, with new designs added regularly.
Every purchase helps support independent, honest conversations about psychedelics, science, and culture.
Shop now: https://divergent-states-shop.fourthwall.com/
FiresideProject.org
Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE
Support the show
Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon!
https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod
Amber Capone, co-founder and CEO of Veterans Exploring Treatment Solutions (VETS), shares the powerful story of how psychedelic therapy - starting with Ibogaine - helped her husband, Navy SEAL Marcus Capone, recover from PTSD and TBI when traditional care failed.
We dive into the science and controversy behind Ibogaine, the limits of VA mental health care, and how VETS is paving the way for safe access to psychedelics like MDMA, psilocybin, and ketamine for veterans in need.
Key Points:
🎧 Listen to hear how psychedelics are changing lives—and the future of trauma care.
Chapter Markers:
Send us Fan Mail
Love the podcast? Help keep the conversations going by checking out our official merch shop! We've got t-shirts, hoodies, hats, mugs, stickers, and more, with new designs added regularly.
Every purchase helps support independent, honest conversations about psychedelics, science, and culture.
Shop now: https://divergent-states-shop.fourthwall.com/
FiresideProject.org
Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE
Support the show
Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon!
https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod
From the publisher's feed
Divergent States cuts through psychedelic hype with grounded, curious conversations about what these substances actually do.
Hosted by 3L1T3, founder of r/Psychonaut, the world’s…
This isn’t a spiritual podcast.
This isn’t a marketing platform.
No mysticism. No sales pitch. Just real conversations, harm reduction, and honest questions.
We explore how psychedelics shape mental health, creativity, and society, from underground use and peer-support communities to clinical trials, therapy rooms, and shifting public attitudes. Some episodes get serious. Some get weird. All of them are grounded in respect for the people actually taking these substances and living with the outcomes.
Guests include Rick Doblin, Reggie Watts, Leonard Pickard, Anne Wagner, Hamilton Morris, and Rick Strassman.
Divergent States is built on the same principles that made r/Psychonaut work at scale: curiosity without gullibility, openness without losing your footing, and safety without killing the joy.
If you’re looking for guru worship, this isn’t your show.
If you’re looking for thoughtful, funny, and grounded conversations about psychedelics and the lives they touch, welcome to Divergent States.
New episodes every two weeks.

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