What if the role of “pastor’s wife” wasn’t biblical at all, but a cultural invention that sidelined women from ministry? Dr. Beth Allison Barr pulls back the curtain on how power, patriarchy, and politics shaped Evangelical churches—and why reclaiming women’s voices could change everything.

So glad to sit down with Dr. Beth Allison Barr—medievalist, church historian, and author of The Making of Biblical Womanhood and Becoming the Pastor’s Wife—for a candid conversation about faith, history, evangelical subcultures, and women’s leadership in the church. Beth traces how the modern “pastor’s wife” role emerged alongside the decline of women’s ordination, shows how women have always done pastoral work, and offers grounded, hope-filled ways to talk across differences in a volatile moment.

✅ TELL A FRIEND ABOUT TP&R!!! Bring more folks into the conversation.

✅ Subscribe to Talkin' Politics & Religion Without Killin' Each Other on your favorite podcast platform.

✅ Leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen: ratethispodcast.com/goodfaithpolitics

✅ Check out our substack: coreysnathan.substack.com

✅ Watch the full conversation and subscribe on YouTube: youtube.com/@politicsandreligion

00:00 — Introductions & context. Beth’s scholarship, books, UK ties; growing up in a Bible-saturated town and how her kids encountered questions of faith earlier than she did.

05:00 — Faith in action vs. attendance. Story of her son choosing hands-on ministry with Mission Waco / Church Under the Bridge and serving the unhoused.

08:00 — History’s ballast in turbulent times. Democracy’s fragility, finding joy, and why she stays to “fight for a country I believe in.”

16:45 — Responding to political violence. Grieving a public figure’s death, fearing the blame game, and the dangers of escalation.

24:00 — Media myths & “those people.” How conspiratorial frames dehumanize.

25:00 — Dobson, MacArthur & evangelical father-figures. The guru dynamic, platformed authority, and downstream damage.

29:00 — Why this book. From Making of Biblical Womanhood to the historical link between pastor’s wives and the decline of women’s ordination.

32:00 — “There are no male pastors in the Bible either.” Pastor as a modern construct; early church roles were gifts and functions, not a job title.

36:30 — Phoebe, Junia & collaborative authorship. The first named deacon tied to a local church is a woman; letters emerged from communities.

41:00 — Power & gatekeeping. Why certain leaders resist change; SBC moments like cutting Rick Warren’s mic.

46:30 — Handling pushback graciously. Ask questions, surface assumptions, adjust tone by relationship.

50:00 — The economics of titles. Same work, different labels → less power and pay; survey showing ~80% of women in official church roles are part-time or unpaid.

53:00 — Does “biblical authority” really forbid women leading? On misusing a few verses vs. the witness of the whole Bible.

57:00 — That cover art 👀. Catherine of Alexandria—the patron saint of preachers—casts a telling shadow.

58:00 — The TP&R Question. See the image of God in each person; start from shared humanity when conversations get heated.

01:01:00 — What’s next. A “freeing” medieval project taking shape.

“There are no female pastors in the Bible? There are no male pastors in the Bible either… what we see are people serving in a variety of functions.”

“Pastor” is a gift before it’s a job. In the New Testament it points to shepherding, not a fixed office; early churches named teachers, apostles, deacons—roles women also filled (e.g., Phoebe).

Same work, different label. Churches often call women’s pastoral work something else—reducing power and pay. Structural choices, not Scripture, drive much of the disparity.

Power protects itself. Resistance to women’s leadership is frequently about protecting positions and rhetoric, not about biblical fidelity.

How to engage across differences. Begin with imago Dei; remember hurt often fuels hostility; ask questions that surface assumptions; adjust posture to the relationship.

“A text without a context is a pretext to say whatever you want.”

“Women have done everything men did in the early church—we just renamed their work.”

“See the image of God before you see a label.”

Books:

Becoming the Pastor’s Wife — www.bethallisonbarr.com/books/becoming-the-pastors-wife

The Making of Biblical Womanhood — www.bethallisonbarr.com/books/the-making-of-biblical-womanhood

Substack: Marginalia - bethallisonbarr.substack.com

Corey is @coreysnathan on...

And we are proud members of The Democracy Group: democracygroup.org