What happens when law firms, universities, and elections come under fire—and how we can all help hold the line for democracy.

In this timely and incisive conversation, Daniel Weiner, a leading legal expert on democracy and rule of law, joins host Corey Nathan to unpack the rising authoritarian tendencies in the U.S., how democratic institutions are responding, and why legal guardrails are more critical than ever. Daniel, who serves as Director of the Brennan Center's Elections and Government Program, discusses the fragility of civil society, the weaponization of government power, and practical steps citizens and institutions can take to uphold democracy.

They also dive into:

The ethical obligations of law firms under pressure

Harvard University's legal pushback against the federal government

Election integrity in 2026 and 2028

Gerrymandering, Project 2025, and the role of independent commissions

How regular folks can be part of the pro-democracy coalition

This is a must-listen episode for anyone concerned about the future of American democracy and looking for informed, balanced, and actionable insights.

[00:00:00] Introduction to Daniel Weiner and his work at the Brennan Center

[00:04:00] Harvard's legal fight over academic freedom and federal funding

[00:06:30] Defining authoritarianism: Legal vs. rhetorical retribution

[00:11:00] What should law firms and universities do under federal threats?

[00:15:00] Daniel's journey from historian to legal advocate for democracy

[00:18:00] The ethics of mid-decade redistricting in Texas vs. California

[00:22:00] Why national standards for elections are necessary

[00:30:00] The mission and work of the Brennan Center for Justice

[00:33:00] Concerns for election integrity in 2026 and 2028

[00:40:00] Should the U.S. move toward national election administration?

[00:47:00] The vertical balance of power: Governors vs. federal overreach

[00:54:00] The Trump administration’s push to fire a Federal Reserve governor

[01:03:00] What each of us can do to protect democracy

“When you look at what staves off authoritarianism... free and fair elections are critical, but civil society—including universities and nonprofits—is a bulwark.” – Daniel Weiner

“It’s legal and appropriate for administrations to enforce the law, but when power is deployed arbitrarily as political retribution, that’s authoritarianism.” – Daniel Weiner

“We need to learn how to sit with people who vote differently than us—not to rehearse rebuttals, but to ask questions and seek understanding.” – Corey Nathan

“Until we get national solutions to gerrymandering, we’ll continue to see tit-for-tat behavior across states.” – Daniel Weiner

🏛️ Brennan Center for Justice: www.brennancenter.org

📘 Michael Waldman’s Newsletters (President of the Brennan Center) - www.brennancenter.org/about/leadership/michael-waldman

📖 Project 2025 – Heritage Foundation’s proposed government overhaul

Daniel Weiner

🔹 Director, Elections & Government Program, Brennan Center

🔹 Twitter / X - x.com/DanWeiner329

🔹 Bluesky - bsky.app/profile/danw329.bsky.social

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Is there any escaping the "Us vs. Them" mindset?

What are the pitfalls of engaging in political and religious discourse—especially on platforms like TikTok, YouTube, and Instagram? Drawing from recent interactions on his posts about Israel, Trump, democracy, and faith, Corey breaks down how NOT to engage in these conversations, underscoring the dangers of generalizing, mischaracterizing, and vilifying others.

The dangers of black-and-white thinking in our polarized times 🌓

The importance of maintaining relationships across political divides ❤️🤝

Why shaming and moral superiority don’t win hearts, minds—or elections 🗳️

How online toxicity and echo chambers hinder democratic dialogue 🌐⚠️

[00:00:00] Introduction: Why this all matters now more than ever

[00:02:00] Reflections on engaging across multiple social platforms

[00:04:00] Reading and responding to vile and antisemitic comments

[00:07:00] The impact of identity and assumptions on discourse

[00:09:00] “Is everyone who voted differently suddenly an enemy?” 🤔

[00:12:00] On friendships with Trump supporters and relational complexity

[00:17:00] Responding to accusations of being “complicit”

[00:21:00] The impossibility of persuading through shame or purity tests

[00:26:00] “They want to see you dead”—the danger of total dehumanization

[00:29:00] On being called a “rapist worshiper” for loving Trump voters

[00:34:00] The misuse of Scripture in political arguments 📖

[00:40:00] Critique of redistricting and political generalizations

[00:44:00] Final thoughts: Save democracy through relationship and reason ✨

Dehumanization destroys dialogue: Reducing others to labels like “enemy,” “MAGAt,” or “rapist worshiper” erodes the social fabric.

Assumptions are toxic: Many presume political affiliation tells the full story—Corey reminds us it doesn’t.

Engagement ≠ endorsement: Loving or talking to someone with different beliefs isn’t betraying your values.

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🎙️ Diving back into the gerrymandering / redistricting wars and the so-called "war on democracy." Is it a real war or political hyperbole? Corey unpacks recent redistricting efforts in Texas and California, confronts ethical and legal questions, and most importantly, discusses how we talk about these issues — especially when we disagree.

From institutional norms to California’s independent redistricting commission, we'll look at a nuanced, principled stance while challenging the increasingly combative political discourse. This episode is a rallying cry for more respectful, informed, and constructive conversations. ☕🗣️

[00:00:00] – Hyperbolic intros & the “war” framing

[00:01:00] – Texas redistricting: legal, ethical, wise?

[00:05:00] – Comparing Texas to California’s independent commission

[00:07:00] – Is it gerrymandering or “dummymandering”?

[00:10:00] – Corey’s personal impact from redistricting lines

[00:12:00] – CalExit? Exploring state-level autonomy

[00:15:00] – What makes responses democratic vs. anti-democratic

[00:17:00] – Instead of war: How about winning votes?

[00:18:00] – Latinx & language: When messaging backfires

[00:21:00] – Listener pushback: From “coward” to “wet noodle”

[00:26:00] – Political warfare and dehumanizing rhetoric

[00:30:00] – The danger of escalating political language

[00:32:00] – What Corey is willing to risk for peace and democracy

[00:33:00] – Final thoughts: Talk politics with gentleness and respect

Legal ≠ Ethical ≠ Wise: Just because something is legal, like Texas’ mid-decade redistricting, doesn’t mean it’s ethical or wise.

Independent commissions work: California's model, while imperfect, supports representative democracy and reduces partisan gerrymandering.

Respectful discourse is essential: Hyperbolic rhetoric (“war,” “enemies,” “fascists”) hinders progress and dehumanizes fellow citizens.

Real change comes from persuasion: Winning hearts, minds, and votes is more sustainable than retaliatory political tactics.

Corey’s core belief: Anti-democratic actions shouldn't be met with more anti-democratic responses.

“If everything's an existential threat, nothing's an existential threat.”

“We need to be able to talk to our neighbors, talk to our friends, talk to our loved ones that happen to feel differently about this issue.”

“You want to be right, or do you want to win?”

“I am betting on conversations — at coffee shops, over drinks, at soccer games — to preserve our democracy.”

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Dr. Terence Lester on overcoming poverty, confronting systemic racism in education, and how we can show up for students our schools are failing.

Introduction:

What We Discuss:

How Dr. Lester’s personal journey fuels his mission

The impact of educational redlining and systemic inequality

How faith, mentors, and community shaped his life

What churches and individuals can do to respond to injustice

How to build proximity and empathy across differences

Episode Highlights:

[00:01:00] Dr. Lester reflects on living in gratitude and grief at once

[00:05:00] The dismantling of Black history and language in public discourse

[00:10:00] How policy and redlining impacted Dr. Lester’s childhood neighborhood

[00:15:00] A teacher named Ms. West sees his potential and changes his life

[00:23:00] Mr. Moore tells Dr. Lester, “One day you’ll be a leader”

[00:31:00] His grandmother and the spiritual foundation of faith in a historic Black church

[00:36:00] A night in jail becomes a turning point in his faith journey

[00:46:00] What the church is missing—and what it could become

[00:54:00] How we can all build relationships across differences

Featured Quotes:

Resources Mentioned:

Love Beyond Walls: www.lovebeyondwalls.org

From Dropout to Doctorate: www.ivpress.com/from-dropout-to-doctorate

Dr. Lester on IG: www.instagram.com/imterencelester

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Not Right. Not Left. Not Crazy. Just Real Talk About Politics and People. 43% of Us Aren’t Partisan Left or Right. This Episode Is for You.

Reflecting on what it means to be politically independent in a time of increasing polarization. Drawing on personal stories and hot-button issues like Israel/Palestine, redistricting, and public safety, host Corey Nathan makes a compelling case for the 43% of Americans who don’t fully align with the far right or progressive left—and offers guidance on how we can still talk to each other with grace and clarity.

What Is Discussed:

The 3 main categories of political identity in America

Why a plurality of us fall into a misunderstood, complex “middle”

How to approach political conversations without labeling

What really motivates voters—and why economic messaging matters

Practical ways to connect across divides without compromising your values

Episode Highlights:

[00:02:00] Defining the “three buckets”: partisan right, left, and the independent middle

[00:06:30] Mislabeling in political debates – a story about Israel and being misunderstood

[00:12:00] How to hold multiple truths in the Israel/Palestine conflict

[00:15:00] On crime, Trump, and false binaries

[00:19:30] Redistricting in Texas—and why legal doesn’t mean ethical

[00:23:00] Why cost of living, not slogans, will decide 2026 & 2028 elections

[00:27:00] Do’s & don’ts for meaningful political conversations

[00:33:00] Learning from mistakes and leading with respect

Featured Quotes:

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Exposing the New Apostolic Reformation's anti-democratic Seven Mountain Mandate and its profound impact on Christian nationalism, urging a return to interreligious dialogue and Jesus' core teachings to rehumanize faith and defend liberal democracy - we're joined by Dr. Matthew D. Taylor to discuss all this and more.

Dr. Matthew D. Taylor is a leading scholar and practitioner in interfaith dialogue and a fierce advocate for pluralism in American society who holds a Ph.D. in Theological and Religious Studies with a focus on comparative religion and modern radical movements within both Christianity and Islam. He currently serves at the Institute for Islamic, Christian, and Jewish Studies in Baltimore, where he works to dismantle antisemitism, Islamophobia, and Christian nationalism. Together, Corey and Matt explore the evolution of evangelicalism, the rise of Christian nationalism, the dangerous theology of the New Apostolic Reformation, and the crucial role of pluralistic democracy in a divided America.

What We Discuss:

Why Dr. Taylor left evangelicalism and what drew him to interfaith dialogue

The alarming growth and influence of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)

How NAR theology is shaping U.S. politics and threatening democracy

The distinction between liberal and illiberal democracy

How to rehumanize political and religious discourse in polarized environments

What Christians can do to confront authoritarianism from within their own communities

Episode Highlights:

Featured Quotes:

"If the propaganda is theological, the response has to be theological." — Dr. Matthew D. Taylor

"We need to improve the quality of our disagreements." — Dr. Matthew D. Taylor

"Right now, the propaganda holding MAGA together is theological—and Christians have a responsibility to speak into that." — Dr. Matthew D. Taylor

"Jesus didn’t come to empower Christians to take power over others—he came to teach us to lay it down." — Dr. Matthew D. Taylor

Resources Mentioned:

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Principles, Polarization, and the Perils of Partisan Shaming.

Let's dive into the heated “Redistricting Wars” in Texas, California, and other states. Using David French’s framework of “Is it legal? Is it ethical? Is it wise?”, Corey examines the legal, moral, and strategic angles of mid-decade redistricting.

From explaining the political strategies behind Texas’s proposed map changes to defending California’s independent redistricting commissions, Corey makes the case for more competitive, purple districts. He also shares a candid and sometimes heated social media exchange about whether sticking to democratic principles is the right approach when political opponents “fight dirty.”

*CORRECTION: Corey incorrectly referred to a conversation with Dr. Matthew D. Taylor. Corey incorrectly stated his first name as Michael instead of Matthew.

What Is Discussed:

Why Texas’s mid-decade redistricting is technically legal but ethically questionable

How California’s independent commissions foster competitive districts

The strategic risks of over-gerrymandering

The dangers of toxic partisanship and abandoning core principles

Why persuasion works better than shaming in political discourse

Episode highlights:

[00:02:00] Applying the “legal, ethical, wise” framework to Texas’s actions

[00:04:00] Why breaking redistricting norms is dangerous

[00:07:00] Why Corey doubts Texas will gain five seats through gerrymandering

[00:08:00] California’s purple districts and independent commissions

[00:12:00] Polling on overturning California’s commission system

[00:14:00] A revealing online exchange about principles vs. partisanship

[00:21:00] The problem with labeling all Trump voters as enemies of democracy

[00:27:00] Sticking to nonviolent, principled engagement during political urgency

[00:33:00] Why respectful persuasion beats moral grandstanding

Featured quotes:

“Is it legal? Is it ethical? Is it wise? That’s how I’m looking at this whole thing.”

“We need more purple districts—places where voters have to talk to each other, not just live in partisan silos.”

“We don’t abandon our principles when it’s convenient or when we think it’s urgent.”

“If your approach is to shame people into agreeing with you, you’re not persuading anyone—you’re pushing them away.”

Resources mentioned:

Reuters article on Texas redistricting fight: www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-led-texas-redistricting-gambit-ignites-national-arms-race-control-congress-2025-08-05/

Politicology with Ron Steslow and Mike Madrid: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cartographic-warfare-the-weekly/id1514968525?i=1000721241146

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What happened between the election of the first black president in 2008 and the reelection of Donald Trump in 2024 that's led to "the age of certainty and the demise of discourse"? Well, as the brilliant writer Thomas Chatterton Williams recounts in his new book, there was the SUMMER OF OUR DISCONTENT.

In this episode, we get to sit down with Thomas—staff writer at The Atlantic and also author of Losing My Cool and Self-Portrait in Black and White. We explore race, identity, cancel culture, and the importance of preserving liberal values in a polarized society.

What We Discuss:

How Thomas’s biracial upbringing shapes his worldview

The story behind the “Letter on Justice and Open Debate” in Harper's

What happened with the Poetry Foundation and cancel culture

Why “moral clarity” can be dangerous when journalism becomes activism

How 2020’s protests shaped national politics and the rise of MAGA

Episode Highlights:

[00:01:00] Thomas shares the story of his parents’ interracial marriage

[00:07:00] Growing up in a household full of debate and thick skin

[00:09:00] Drafting and publishing the Harper’s letter and its backlash

[00:13:00] The Poetry Foundation controversy and institutional capture

[00:25:00] Why “moral clarity” fails when we don’t agree on morality

[00:39:00] The link between 2020 protests and January 6th

[00:45:00] Can Democrats win the center—and what candidates can break through?

[00:48:00] The toxic effects of social media on how we see each other

Featured Quotes:

Resources Mentioned:

The Summer of Our Discontent by Thomas Chatterton Williams: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/704632/summer-of-our-discontent-by-thomas-chatterton-williams/

Harper’s Letter: https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice-and-open-debate/

Thomas’s work at The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/author/thomas-chatterton-williams/

Thomas on IG: www.instagram.com/chattertonwilliams

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How Did We Get Here? From Outrage to Applauding Atrocity

In this edition, host Corey Nathan offers a timely and deeply personal reflection on a disturbing trend in society: the growing tendency to dehumanize one another. We unpack two tragic incidents that sparked widespread and even celebratory reactions online—mass murders of corporate executives—and explore what these reactions say about our collective soul. Using real-life examples, scriptural references, and philosophical insights, the challenge is to consider how we might reclaim our shared humanity.

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What if ICE visits our church? How are we doing after the LA Fires? And how can the Church help to rebuild and heal?

In this heartfelt episode of Talkin’ Politics & Religion Without Killin’ Each Other, host Corey Nathan welcomes back the Reverend Dr. Matt Colwell, Senior Pastor of Knox Presbyterian Church in Pasadena, CA. A theologian, author, and community leader, Matt opens up about losing his home in the devastating Eaton Fire, his deeply personal approach to immigrant justice, and the evolving role of the Church in times of social and political crisis. A long-time friend and spiritual guide to Corey, Matt shares how Scripture and lived experience converge to shape his ministry and public witness.

What We Discuss:

How the Eaton Fire profoundly impacted Pastor Matt and his congregation

What it looks like for a church to take a public stand on immigration and ICE enforcement

The intersection of Scripture, politics, and social ethics in Matt’s faith journey

Why churches are legally preparing for ICE visits—and how they’re doing it

The essential role of community, memory, and physical space in recovering from trauma

Strategies for engaging in tough conversations across ideological lines

Episode Highlights:

Featured Quotes:

Resources Mentioned:

Our God is Undocumented by Ched Myers and Matthew Colwell: orbisbooks.com/products/our-god-is-undocumented

Knox Presbyterian Church, Pasadena: knoxpasadena.org

Pastor Matt goes viral: www.instagram.com/p/DLP84OWM-4c/

Clergy and Laity United for Economic Justice: www.cluejustice.org

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