It's the story of a guy on a road trip across the country, checking out America's classic greasy spoons. And the adventure is all about finding the restaurant owners and creative cooks serving up the very best of down-home style food. That's the premise of the hit series Diners, Drive-Ins, and Dives starring everyman chef Guy Fieri. Today we're going to talk with the show's creator, two-time Emmy Award winning food journalist and executive producer David Page.

Interview Transcript

David, I can't wait to talk to you about the show. But before we dive in and talk about the specifics, how long did the show run and how many episodes were done? My impression it's still on and it's always been there.

Yes. I created it in 2006, 2007. I did the first 11 seasons and moved on. And funny story, in the first month of the show we had a couple of strong initial outings. And everyone was all excited thinking maybe this will be a hit. A food network executive called me up to tamp down my expectations and said, look, this is all fine and dandy, but this thing isn't gonna go more than a season or two. There's just not that many restaurants. And you know, to quote the great screenwriter William Goldman whose rule of Hollywood is 'no one knows anything.' I did 11 seasons. It's now in season 40 or something, I think.

Holy cow. I could just think of enough restaurants around me to do a couple of seasons worth. So, tell us the origin story. How did Diners, Drive-Ins and Dives come about?

Well, I had left a career in network news and moved to the Twin Cities because I thought I wanted to be in business for a public corporation. And I took a job as the Senior Vice president at a home shopping channel, and I was all excited, and I hated it. It was just horrible. I did not want to sell second rate gold jewelry to shut ins. So, I quit, and I opened a production company and began to starve because I wasn't selling anything. Then I called Al Roker, who has a production company and who had technically worked for me, although stars don't work for executive producers in the real world. When I was the co-producer of the Weekend Editions of the Today Show. Al was on the weekend show at the time. He hadn't yet moved up to the big show. And I said, hey, Al, I'm starving. You got any work you could throw me? And he said, yeah, I'm doing a lot of stuff for the Food Network. I'll subcontract some of it to you. Which was good for both of us. I got to work, and Al got to take a cut without doing anything. So, that hooked me up with the Food Network. I started working for them and Al and I both knew I wasn't gonna get rich doing a pass-through deal, so I started pitching them directly. And I was getting nowhere. There was this very nice development exec who would talk to me on the phone. And everything I proposed she would shoot down. And one day I'm on the phone with her and we're going through a pitch call and I'm proposing this and proposing that, and she's saying, no, no, no. Finally, the Food Network had asked Al to do a documentary on diners and the history of diners and such. And Al had subcontracted it to me. So, this development exec had a frustration and I think pity for me and finally said to me on this call, don't you have another thing on diners? And I immediately, I said, oh, absolutely. I'm developing a show called Diners, Drive-Ins and Dives. And I told her all about it. And this was like late on a Thursday or Friday afternoon. And she said, 'you know, that sounds good. We have a development meeting Tuesday. Get me a writeup on Monday.' And I got off the phone elated because it was the first time she'd expressed interest in anything. But also, I'd kind of put myself in a jam because I was not developing a show called that. I had literally pulled the title out of thin air. Or a body part, depending upon how scatological you want to get. And that gave me the weekend to try to put a pitch together. So, this was in the old days when you didn't email people, you called them. I did as much research as I could, and I started calling restaurants around the country. And on Monday I sent her a pitch for a one-hour special with, I think, it had seven restaurants in it. And, they had their meeting on Tuesday and here here's, you know, you get lucky. Guy Fieri had just won their second Food Network Star competition. Back then they naively believed that that contest was gonna generate them a new star every year. Someone who would be a big deal for it. In fact, Guy is the only one who ever made it and, when I'm drunk and immodest, I take a lot of credit for having taught him how to make it. But he has immense natural talent. Anyway, they wanted to make Guy a star. And they were trying to get a primetime show for him. And big deal, major league production companies had been asked to come up with proposals, which had not come back yet. They figured, what the hell, let's do a special with Guy just to keep on the air so people wouldn't forget about him. So, they picked up this special from me. It was gonna be a one-shot deal. We did it. I think they were kind of stunned by how well it did. And then something really great happened for me. They looked at the proposals from the big boys and didn't like them. And they were kind of stuck. They were desperate to get Guy on the air in prime time. So, they figured, well, you know, let's pick up a very short season of this thing. And they bought, I don't know if it was eight or 10 episodes, but they committed to that. And very quickly, we became a hit and off we went.

It's an amazing story. So many people have seen so many episodes of that show. But nobody would have any idea that's how it got started. It's wonderful to hear about that. Once you got going and got your feet on the ground with this, what were you hoping to accomplish through this show?

Well, look, TV's about storytelling. I've been a storyteller, hell, for 50 some odd years now as a mostly broadcast journalist. You learn, if you're any good, that the best stories come from and are about people. I conceive this not as a food show, but as an opportunity for the viewer to meet really cool, passionate people doing something they cared about. You know, independent restaurant owners make a buck 3.80 at best. They're passionate about making good food. If they're any good. They're often trying to keep family legacies alive. And more than anything else to succeed in the food biz you gotta wanna serve people. You gotta wanna make people happy. So, I went out to document the stories of some of the coolest people in America. Now, it was in the food world, which is a world of shared experience. We all eat. Most of us have favorite foods. Most of our favorite foods are the kinds of foods that I featured on Diners. TV is about one thing: hanging out with someone you want to hang out with. That's why Tom Selleck remains a star; whatever crappy TV show you put him in. That's why for your older audience, Tyne Daly kept getting series after series, or James Garner. There are just people you want to hang out with and that's all television is. Guy is someone people want to hang out with. His personality comes through the screen in a particular way. And you know, I said earlier, frankly or implied, that I taught him a lot about how to make TV. I did, but that's because at heart, he is the most naturally talented performer I've ever worked with in 50 years in the business. And was brilliantly able to soak up anything he learned along the way. I mean, it's like a chef. If you're a good chef, a better chef can make you better. But if you're not a good chef, you'll never be a good chef. To be good on TV, you have to have it. I can't define IT, but to quote the Supreme Court justice about pornography, I know it when I see it. And Guy has IT. So basically, this show put together people you wanted to hang out with and brought them into your living room or your bedroom or whatever room you watch in.

The show is very compelling and you're right, you get to know the chefs, the restaurant owners in these little places, and there's something wonderfully wholesome about it. It's so good that you came up with this idea. You know, I was reminded as you were talking about a conversation you and I had when we first got to know each other by Zoom a few weeks ago. And I was mentioning I was going to do a self-guided drive called the Blues Triangle Tour. Starting in Memphis going down to Tupelo, over to Mussell Shoals, ending up in Nashville. And immediately you started telling me about places I needed to go. You said, oh, there's this wonderful place in Memphis. It's down an alley and down these stairs.

Yeah, the rendezvous.

Yes. They have the best Memphis dry rub ribs. I thought, oh my God, I'm, I can't tell you how grateful I am for that recommendation.

Well, did you go?

I'm going plan my trip around that. And then as I was reading your book, Food Americana, which we've discussed in a separate podcast, you mentioned the hot wings in Nashville. You mentioned former Mayor of Nashville, Bill Purcell, who was an inspiration for the hot wing festival they have there. Well, I happen to know him. And because our professional paths intersected around some health and wellness things, and he's a wonderful guy. So, you inspire me to get back in touch with him. You know, I wrote to him, I said, I'm going to be in Nashville. Let's go out for some hot wings. You know, at the place where they were invented. How wonderful is all this?

Well, the story behind them is phenomenal. Apparently, the guy, Prince I guess was his last name... he was not a real faithful husband or boyfriend. I'm not sure if he was married to the woman. But he came in one night after gallivanting around and told his partner, told apparently, didn't ask, to make him some wings. And she was so teed off at him that she made them hotter than hell and he liked them. And you know, an industry is born. Or so the story goes.

That's so interesting. Tell us some of your most memorable experiences doing the show. And some of the places you were, the people you met. There must be so many that stand out and you did so many. But give us a few examples.

Well, I understand I kind of lost out on part of this after the first season. I, I was back at home base putting the show together. So, okay, my in-person experiences were somewhat limited. Although I made some phenomenal friends in the course of it. Louie Miller's Barbecue in Taylor, Texas. Which, I visited. It's a legacy joint. Opened 80 some odd years at this point in a converted, they always include the word girls, a converted girls basketball gym in this small town in Texas. And when we went to shoot there, Louis Miller had passed away. His son Bobby was running the place. Bobby has now passed away and his son Wayne has the place. But I just fell in love with Bobby, who was, mm-hmm, dry as a bone and hilarious. I mean, Guy says to him, well, what are you gonna cook these over? You know, expecting post oak or mesquite. Bobby looked at 'em and said, wood. I said, oh, so that's how it's gonna go. And, and that's how it went. Now we started at three in the morning. That's when they start the fire. And, you know, we're in the middle of an interview in front of one of the pits, which was at that point, I don't know, maybe 60 years old. And without looking, without checking, Bobby turns around and starts moving briskets from one part of the pit to the other. And either I or Guy said, why are you doing that? How do you know to do that? He said they needed it. It's that kind of innate understanding of his food, his technique, the pit - which had a personality of its own - and he understood it. It was just extraordinary. It's the best barbecue I've ever had. The brisket there is extraordinary. It's unbelievable.

They make their own sausage, out of bull meat. You know, again, food of the poor. Barbecue started as a way to salvage tough cuts and meat that was going bad in Czech and German owned butcher shops in central Texas. It was all about making do and the argument has allegedly been that bull meat has a better chew. BS. Once the old Bull was done siren, you had to do something with 'em. Grinding them up into sausage was efficient. And I, I mean, it's fascinating what you learn along the way. Bulls are kinda lean. So, when you make sausage outta bull meat, you actually add fat. That you've taken from other animals to get the right mix. Their sausage is amazing. It's the finest barbecue I've ever had. There's a place in West Lafayette, Indiana, called the Triple XXX Family Restaurant. They added family restaurant to it 'cause when it was just the Triple XXX Drive-In, they used to get phone calls, yeah, from people asking what time the next show was. And the married couple that owns it, they started going there when they were in high school dating. His father owned it at one point. It's basically a burger joint, but much more than that where they make the burgers out of steak. They name the burgers after star athletes from Purdue University right down the street. And they just, their, their love for the business, their love for the community, it's just something really, really special. And, you know, Wayne Miller's become a friend. They've become friends. It, it, it's a delight to see. there's a barbecue joint in Lexington, Kentucky. And I know Lexington because when my daughter was in high school, she was a competitive equestrian. And, Lexington has a pretty big deal horse show every year. And we would go there, and she actually ribboned there. She was damn good at it. But there was a barbecue joint that I found there. I didn't find it on a trip there. I mean, my research department found it. And their specialty was, as is the case in that part of Kentucky, mutton. And we sent a crew down there and Guy and did a segment with them. Like the next year when we were in Lexington, I took the family there and we had dinner. And it turned out I couldn't go there very often because they wouldn't let me pay. And they would just fill the table with all this food because as it turned out, they told me that being on Diners saved them from going bankrupt and shutting down. And I found out that we actually saved a bunch of restaurants, which was not our intent. But I'm damn glad it happened. And by the way, if you've never had mutton barbecue, you gotta go for it. It's fabulous.

You know, when you were talking about Texas barbecue, I don't think I've ever come across barbecue I don't like. And, you know, North Carolina has its own distinctive barbecue, and Kansas City and Memphis, you know, all that. But by far my favorite, and I shouldn't say this because I live in North Carolina, but it's Texas barbecue, just like you said.

Well, I think we're talking central Texas barbecue because...

Yes.

In Southern Texas, there's a Mexican style of barbecue, in Southeastern Texas there's the kind of barbecue you're used to because there was an African American migration from the Southeast into that area, so they're making pork. But yes, central Texas barbecue is second to caviar and hallava. Probably the third best substance on earth.

Oh my God, I totally agree. I have a good friend in Austin, so I've been down there and I've gone to Lockhart and, you know, Austin and places, and you're right, that Central Texas barbecue is just unbelievable. It, it hijacks every atom in my body.

And, and what's incredible about it is in most cases. There's no sauce.

No, I was just gonna say...

that it's only with salt and pepper.

You don't... the meat is so good. Yeah. You don't want to besmirch it with sauce.

No, no.

At other places you need sauce because the meat's not that good to begin with. Oh, it's just absolute heaven.

And again, it was born of a need to do something with bad meat. And, and by the way, interestingly enough, you know, unlike North Carolina barbecue, which was born of whole animals, this kind of barbecue was impossible until the meat cutting industry was born. And pieces of beef were being shipped that were not whole carcasses or half carcasses. This old form of food is actually also a modern form of food that couldn't exist until the industrial age began treating beef differently.

You know, I'm dying to make a trip down to Austin, use that as a base and do nothing but barbecue for about three or four days. I don't know if the body can tolerate that, but, oh...

Oh sure it can!

But I'm going to find out perhaps.

Well, you know, there's three Michelin star barbecue joints in Austin now. I interviewed the owner of La Barbecue, which has a Michelin star who was actually married to a woman who is a descendant of Louis Miller's family. And she unfortunately passed away. Her widow runs the place alone now. But they're doing some remarkable stuff. And of course, there's Franklin's, which is famous, which I've never been to. But oh, Obama was the only one allowed to cut the line there.

Yeah, I wasn't, I had to stand in line a long time.

How good was it?

Unbelievably good. I mean, you go up and, you know, Aaron Franklin was there at the counter chopping up the brisket and asked which part you'd like. And you just don't... sauce belongs nowhere near it. The meat is just so tender, so beautiful.

But it does raise a definitional issue. He was one of the first to use prime beef. Is that cheating? Barbecue's goal is to make the most out of the least.

I don't know. If it's good. It's good.

Okay.

Cheating or not? It's really good.

Okay. Just checking.

So, let's get back to food television. Social media has come into the picture, since you began doing the Diners show. How has that changed things? And is TV still the predominant place people are learning about food or is it social? How do the two interact? Where does that work?

I think it's mostly social media these days.I mean, look, TV evolved. Food TV evolved into two things. Truly beautiful paeans to food and chefs done generally on streaming channels. And they're fine. They're good. A bit, too dreamy for my taste. They take you out of the real world of your shared experience, but that's okay. I, I like going to museums and looking at pretty pictures. What troubles me is that so much of food TV turned into competition shows and BS reality shows. They glorify, you know, Gordon Ramsey's a great chef. I doubt he runs his real kitchens the way he screams and yells on that show. And given the toxicity in the restaurant kitchen culture, that got a spotlight a few years ago and is still, you know, it hasn't been eradicated. I'm not in love with the glorification of screaming and yelling. But the Bear has the same problem. I mean, this 'yes chef' mentality but it's still the French brigade system and an awful lot of the chefs I enjoy talking to these days will tell you, you don't have to do that.

But I think the impetus in food as an audio-visual medium. Or food presented as an audio-visual medium is very much social media [these days. And you know, on the one hand, that's fine. The more interest there is in food. Hopefully the more people may sample my podcast Culinary Characters Unlocked. Look for it wherever you get your podcasts. But look, I confused the folks at the Food Network by insisting that my show be completely factual. You know, if they would ask me to stretch a point or something, I would say no. I held it to the same standards that I held all the reporting to when I was the senior investigative producer at 2020. I believe you should tell the truth. Well, social media doesn't give a damn. Most food shows, frankly, don't give a damn. But you've got influencers who have their own agendas. Who are wheedling free meals out of restaurants. I mean, why the hell glorify to buy chocolate? It's a goddamn chocolate bar, but it's 20 bucks. That's ridiculous. Food has been turned into a designer, accoutrement. It's, you know, it's a YSL designer bag. That doesn't make me happy. But then again as a society it's harder and harder to get people to be interested in actually learning stuff. They wanna be titillated, they wanna be shocked, they wanna be amazed. And look, teaching people stuff or imparting information doesn't have to be broccoli. I believe, frankly, one of the things I'm proudest of is that Diners, while entirely factual, was entertaining as hell. You can do both. But there's no code of honor or honesty or obligation among anybody picking up a camera and going on social media and saying, look at this.

Where could it go? How could it be better?

Well, don't take money or free meals to go pump places up. Have some expertise in what you're analyzing. I mean, criticism's fine, but if you don't know what you're talking about, the criticism is not valid. And I look to food critics to guide me toward where I want to go and eat and what I should like and help me broaden my palate and my understanding. Is it entertaining? Yeah, fine. It's okay. But again, I'm a grumpy old man telling kids to get off the shed.

So David, you know, I'm really grateful you joined us today because the Diners, Drive-Ins and Dives is such an important part of American food television history. And it's amazing to hear how it got started and where it went and your vision of how things could be better. But boy, it's just fun to talk to you about food in general and places to eat and the people. And it is just this wonderful world of connection, isn't it?

It, it is. And for example, this conversation, Kelly, I didn't know you till we started talking about doing this podcast, and now you're a new buddy. I love talking food with you.

BIO

David Page is the President and Executive of Page Productions. He is a two-time Emmy award winning Executive Producer with a focus on culinary projects and a special expertise in creating entertaining and engaging programming that combines the highest production values with the richest storytelling. Page is best known for creating the Food Network hit Diners, Drive-Ins and Dives and executive producing the program for eleven seasons. He is also an author, having written the book Food Americana about the evolution of American cuisine. And he is now producing and hosting the podcast Culinary Characters Unlocked, featuring entertaining but substantive interviews with important people in the world of food.