Edited highlights of our full conversation.

When was the last time you admitted you were wrong?

In this episode, we're going back in to the archives for a conversation I had with Mark Thompson, early in 2019. Mark was the Director General of the BBC before becoming CEO of the New York Times in 2012. One of his many claims to fame is that he brought both institutions into the digital age, establishing the New York Times as one of the most successful digital news platforms in the world.

To me, his leadership is marked by a self-effacing honesty and personal courage.

Early in our conversation, Mark talked about walking towards the gunfire. Literally. He was a journalist before he became a leader of institutions.

Most of us, hopefully, won't be asked to demonstrate courage of quite that level during our leadership lives.

Leadership is complex. It's like playing four-dimensional chess as we try to find the places of intersection between what is needed of us by a host of moving parts, and our own ability to provide them.

For almost every leader, saying 'I was wrong' challenges our essential sense of who we are and what leadership is about. It's not easy to find that place on most people's leadership chessboard.

But, as the nature of leadership changes, as people come to demand less defensive behavior of their leaders and more humanity, finding the courage to say 'I was wrong' will be the surest test of your leadership potential.

Think of it as the leadership equivalent of walking towards the gunfire. And if you turn and head in the other direction, what does that say about you?