In this episode, Rich and Mel interview Fern and Audrey, who share their work helping survivors of trauma-based mind control, reflecting on their personal experiences and the impact of Dr. Mike Heiser's Divine Council worldview, especially through his books, *The Myth That is True*, *The Facade* and *The Portent*. They explore the complexities of dissociation, discussing how different parts of a person’s identity function and how to discern between dissociated personalities and demonic possession. Fern shares a powerful story about working with a survivor of satanic ritual abuse, highlighting the challenges of spiritual discernment. Throughout the conversation, they stress the importance of love, empathy, and understanding in the healing process, and the critical need for education and training to address spiritual abuse in churches.