In this second conversation with political philosopher Yoram Hazony, we dive deeper into the biblical concept of nationhood, wrestling with listener-submitted questions on nationalism, empire, and political virtue. Hazony responds to critiques and clarifies his position: biblical nationalism is not about racial purity or imperialism, but about the virtue of limited, self-governing peoples—unified not by ethnicity but by shared laws, traditions, and faith.

Hazony distinguishes biblical terms like am and goy, explores the status of converts like Ruth, and dismantles the modern racialized understanding of nationhood. He emphasizes that scripture assumes nations will be internally diverse, but not infinitely so—there must be a dominant center that holds people together.

The conversation also explores why biblical literature, not Greco-Roman thought, shaped the American constitutional order, and why the prophets critique empire while affirming the need for some form of the state. As Hazony puts it, “Purity is not the goal. Faithful unity is.”

For the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy article Yoram mentioned in the interview, access the PDF here:

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00:00 The Virtue of Nationalism

Should Christians serve in the military? In this sobering and nuanced episode, Dru Johnson sits down with retired Colonel Darren Duke—Marine Corps Special Operations commander and intelligence officer—to unpack this deeply personal and morally complex question. Drawing from over 30 years of military experience, Duke shares his evolving view of military service, from Cold War patriotism to the hard-earned disillusionment of post-9/11 combat.

He offers insight into how symbols like the Punisher, Spartan helmets, and Valhalla became coping mechanisms for troops struggling with the trauma and moral ambiguity of prolonged warfare. Duke also warns young Christians to prepare not only for the battlefield but for the morally challenging culture within the military itself.

This conversation does not prescribe easy answers but outlines how one might think Christianly about enlistment, national service, and the weight of violence in a fallen world. Listeners will walk away better equipped to consider military service with sober realism, moral clarity, and theological depth.

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00:00 Introduction to Military Service and Personal Background

In this update episode, Dru Johnson and Mike Tolliver pull back the curtain on the work happening at the Center for Hebraic Thought. From filing 501(c)(3) nonprofit status and building a stellar advisory board, to launching a redesigned website and reviving in-person workshops, the CHT has been quietly preparing for long-term growth and broader influence.

They discuss the newly relaunched Hebraic Thought Community (HTC) on Facebook—already hundreds strong—and the four activities that bring the community together: highlighting member-created resources, sharing weekend reading, gathering weekly for public listening of Scripture, and hosting scholar Q&As. This digital community is sparking cross-disciplinary conversations, surfacing unexpected gems from laypeople, and reimagining how Christians listen to the Bible together.

Dru and Mike also explain why listening (not just reading) Scripture in community is a powerful and ancient discipline—and why it’s missing from most churches today. They reflect on the joy of watching Scripture come alive in unexpected ways through these communal practices.

They close with a call to support: whether through recurring giving, hosting a workshop, or sharing the word, CHT is building something bigger than any one person—something rooted in Scripture and flourishing in community.

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00:00 Introduction

Should Christians look for Jesus in every verse of the Old Testament—or are we missing the point when we do?

In this wide-ranging and practical conversation, Dr. Christopher J. H. Wright, Langham Partnership’s Global Ambassador and one of the world’s leading Old Testament scholars, joins Dru Johnson to explore the difference between Christocentric and Christotelic readings of Scripture. Wright reflects on common instincts Christians have—either skipping the Old Testament or trying to make every text about Jesus—and explains what we lose when we fail to respect the voice and context of the original authors.

Wright argues for a more faithful reading that respects the historical drama of God’s covenantal journey with Israel, leading to but not eclipsed by Christ. He explains how Luke 24 affirms that the Scriptures point to Jesus, but that doesn’t mean every verse must be “about” him. Instead, Scripture forms a unified story with Jesus as its destination, not its hiding place.

The conversation ends with a powerful case for why the global church, especially in the majority world, has crucial theological insights to offer—and why Western Christians should be ready to learn.

For more from Chris Wright:

https://christopherjhwright.com/

For more about Langham Partnership:

https://us.langham.org/

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00:00 Understanding the Old Testament's Relevance

What if the most politically influential Christian leaders in America aren’t the ones you’ve heard of?

In this eye-opening conversation, Dr. Matthew D. Taylor joins Dru Johnson to explain how the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) and related charismatic networks reshaped modern evangelicalism—and helped deliver the presidency to Donald Trump. Taylor, a scholar of religion and politics, traces how televangelists, prophets, and apostolic leaders operating outside denominational structures built a new Christian populist movement with real spiritual and political power.

Far from being fringe actors, these leaders—like Paula White and Lance Wallnau—hold enormous sway through media networks and prophetic authority. Taylor explores how modern prophecy, celebrity culture, and populist theology have created a system resistant to critique, driven by revival language and unregulated influence. He explains why evangelical elites misjudged the NAR’s reach and how their dismissal of these leaders as “hucksters” only deepened the divide.

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00:00 Introduction to the New Apostolic Reformation Movement

What do Hollywood, Joan Didion, and the Bible have in common?

More than you’d expect. In this episode, New York Times film critic and author Alissa Wilkinson joins Dru Johnson to discuss the life, work, and worldview of Joan Didion, one of the most influential American writers of the 20th century. Wilkinson’s new book, We Tell Ourselves Stories, explores how Didion made sense of chaos through narrative—and what her work reveals about faith, trauma, politics, and cultural memory.

Together, Alissa and Dru explore Didion’s insight that stories are not just entertainment; they are survival mechanisms, tools we use to impose order on a chaotic world. But is that all Scripture is—just another human-made narrative? Wilkinson offers a careful reflection on the limits and power of storytelling, showing how Didion’s work can challenge both Christian belief and secular mythmaking.

They also dive into conspiracy theories, the fusion of politics and Hollywood, and the rise of nostalgia as a cultural sickness. From John Wayne to 9/11 to the Marvel Cinematic Universe, this episode traces the invisible threads between the stories we inherit and the truths we cling to.

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00:00 Exploring Joan Didion's Influence

Was wine in the Bible just a calorie source—or something far richer? In this fascinating conversation, Dr. John Anthony Dunne, author of The Mountain Shall Drip Sweet Wine: A Biblical Theology of Alcohol, joins Dru Johnson to explore how wine and alcohol shaped ancient Israel’s culture, theology, and imagination.

Dr. Dunne traces how biblical wine reflected not only the scarcity and agricultural hopes of ancient life, but also a tradition of craftsmanship, connoisseurship, and divine blessing. Together they unpack why biblical wine wasn’t just functional—it was symbolic of abundance, peace, and God’s favor.

From fermentation methods and ancient storage to the surprising case for white wine at the wedding at Cana, this episode challenges modern assumptions about alcohol in Scripture. Dunne explores why the biblical world viewed wine as inherently miraculous, why production was tied to the land promise, and how modern communion links us to Canaan’s terroir in unexpected ways.

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00:00 Introduction

Is nationalism always bad—or does the Bible have a more nuanced view of nations, borders, and political life? In this fascinating episode, Israeli philosopher Yoram Hazony joins Dru Johnson to explore the political vision of the Old Testament, from the Table of Nations in Genesis to the prophetic hope of nations learning from Israel in peace.

Hazony explains how the Bible’s anti-empire stance emerges from the stories of Babel, Assyria, and Babylon—and why God’s vision for humanity includes independent nations with borders, traditions, and space to seek Him freely. Together they unpack how Israel’s kingship, laws, and tribal structure offer a model of checks, balances, and moral limits on power.

The conversation also tackles modern questions: What can Christians today learn from biblical nationalism? How does this compare with movements like Christian nationalism in the U.S.? And why does Hazony see so many modern Christian intellectuals missing the Old Testament’s political teachings?

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00:00 Introduction to Nationalism and the Bible

Is church just a place to think about God—or are we wired to worship together? In this groundbreaking episode, theologian Dr. Josh Cockayne and developmental psychologist Dr. Gideon Salter join Dru Johnson to explore how human beings are made for joint attention, and why gathering for worship is a deeply embodied, social necessity.

Drawing from their book Why We Gather, the conversation unfolds how infants develop the skill of “joint attention”—the ability to notice something with someone else—and how this same capacity is essential to biblical worship, from Genesis to Revelation. They argue that worship isn’t merely cognitive or emotional—it’s communal, embodied, and neurologically formative. Togetherness isn’t a nice-to-have; it’s the foundation of how we know God and the world.

From communion rituals and infant behavior to liturgical design and online church, the episode provides a practical, psychologically grounded, and theologically rich vision of church that challenges both individualism and shallow expressions of “community.”

For their book "Why We Gather," see the publisher's website here:

https://www.baylorpress.com/9781481322911/why-we-gather/

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00:00 Introduction to Worship and Individual Experience

What gives someone the right to script your prayers? In this powerful conversation, Douglas McKelvey, author of the bestselling Every Moment Holy liturgical series, joins Dru Johnson to unpack the spiritual and theological journey behind his work. From a childhood steeped in neo-charismatic theology to a disillusioning college experience at Oral Roberts University, McKelvey shares how God used a profound unraveling—what many today might call “deconstruction”—to rebuild a biblically coherent faith through unexpected mentors and communities.

Listeners learn how McKelvey became part of the Art House Foundation and later the Rabbit Room, drawing from the legacies of Francis Schaeffer, Edith Schaeffer, and Andrew Peterson to create a community of artists grounded in Scripture. Along the way, he opens up about the fear and trembling that should attend writing liturgies—and what it means to write prayers people will carry into their most vulnerable moments.

This episode explores beauty, hospitality, ritual, and the theological integrity behind the words we say to God. Whether you're a liturgy lover, creative, or just someone seeking coherent theology after chaos, this is an episode that will stay with you.

Learn more about the Art House and Rabbit Room here:

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00:00 Introduction to the Rabbit Room