In this episode I am once again joined by Mary Shutan: author, occultist, and spiritual teacher.

Mary explains her activities as a modern spirit worker, reveals how to form and maintain working relationships with spirits, details the difference between spirit pacts and contracts, and warns about the unintended consequences of making deals with unknown beings.

Mary explores the problems associated with using the word “shaman”, offers a critique of modern shamanism training courses, and explains why many people who pursue shamanism would be better suited to a religious orientation to animism.

Mary also reveals her own aborted attempt at the infamous Abramelin ritual, details the resultant fallout and years of recovery, and reflects on the impact of magickal practice on mental and physical health.

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Full episode link in bio.

Also available on Youtube, iTunes, & Spotify – search ‘Guru Viking Podcast’.

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01:00 - What is a modern spiritual worker?

02:20 - Why Mary doesn’t like to use the word “shaman”

02:44 - Mary’s problems with Core Shamanism

04:31 - Shamanism and patriarchy

05:34 - Why Mary doesn’t call herself a shaman

07:54 - Core Shamanism, Christian conditioning, and legacies of colonisation

10:58 - Anthropologists as shamanic teachers

13:21 - Training in Core Shamanism

15:41 - Critique of Core Shamanism and wounded healers

18:43 - Post-colonial critiques of modern shamanism

20:00 - Some people really want animism

21:42 - When shamanism goes wrong

22:33 - Cherry-picking shamanism and reconstruction

23:47 - Discernment and tainted gnosis

24:22 - Words have energy and the need for respect

26:36 - Mary uses the word “shaman” in her business and books

27:33 - Pervasive Christian conditioning

28:30 - Patriarchy in shamanism

29:38 - Pop-shamanism vs direct experience

30:55 - 20 years of teaching shamanism

32:16 - People don’t believe in spirits any more

34:04 - Modernity and scientism

37:06 - Modernity and shamanism

40:40 - Martin Prechtel engaging with indigenous shamanism

43:06 - Indigeneity and the routes to become a shaman

46:52 - What Mary tells people who feel called to shamanism?

49:05 - Conflating personal religious practice with professionalising

49:53 - How to get started in animism

52:55 - Which spirits and entities does Mary work with?

55:27 - Spirit relations

57:42 - Mary’s way of relating to spirits

59:33 - Spirit communication in dreams and through rituals

01:00:27 - Spirits who come to Mary

01:01:23 - Spirit contracts

01:03:56 - Spirit ID and the danger of spirit contracts

01:04:53 - The Buddha in Sri Lanka

01:06:35 - Be careful what you wish for

01:07:31 - Spirit Lawyering

01:07:52 - Healthy skepticism when dealing with spirits

01:10:00 - Cultural misunderstandings about spirits

01:11:21 - Don’t make a pact with a spirit

01:12:29 - Warning about spirit contracts

01:13:18 - Pact vs contract

01:16:41 - Mary’s training in Western Occultism and time in the Void

01:20:14 - Mary’s spiritual crisis

01:24:17 - Orienting to the Dark Feminine

01:27:09 - Two attempts at the Abramelin ritual

01:29:16 - Abandoning the 18-month Abramelin ritual

01:29:50 - How did Mary exit the ritual?

01:30:48 - Magick and mental health

01:32:36 - Psychotherapists for magicians

01:33:32 - Struggles with the Golden Dawn and pivoting to shamanism

01:38:24 - Christian monks did magick

01:38:55 - Giving up seeking

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Previous episode with Mary Shutan:

- https://www.guruviking.com/search?q=shutan

To find out more about Mary Shutan, visit:

- http://maryshutan.com/

For more interviews, videos, and more visit:

- www.guruviking.com

Music ‘Deva Dasi’ by Steve James