The chaos Trump is creating in Southern California is a distraction from the other cruel, careless, and destructive actions of his administration. The assault on higher education and Harvard University in particular will cost us enormously, especially in terms of medicine and science. Here’s my 2012 conversation with Don Ingber, founding director of Harvard’s Wyss Institute for Biologically Inspired Engineering, who has emerged as one of the leading voices defending science and attacking White House cuts to research. Following this conversation you’re about to hear, I was hired by the Wyss Institute to host and co-produce Disruptive, a 17 episode podcast series, honored by the Webbies as one of the five top science podcasts of 2017. Search Disruptive, Terrence McNally to find the series at numerous sites.