Gerry Graf is the Co-Founder of Slap Global. They describe themselves as a business accelerator fueled by creativity. Gerry is best known as the founder of Barton F. Graf 9000 - which he built into one of the most acclaimed advertising agencies in America.

Business Insider named Gerry "The Most Creative Man in Advertising". Newsweek called him one of the "New Don Drapers". PBS featured Barton as one of the new innovative shops in "The Real Mad Men of Madison Ave". Forbes named Barton one of the 14 Most Influential Agencies in America. Fast Company named Barton one of the Most Innovative Advertising Agencies and Gerry one of the 100 Most Creative People in Business. And AdAge included Barton in their A-List issue 8 out of 9 years and named Gerry one of the 50 "biggest and best thinkers and doers from 20 years of advertising and consumer culture."

Despite all of this, the company closed after ten years.

Success and failure are cousins. So are risk and fear. You can't have one without the other.

How we see them and what we learn from them shape the course of our lives.

In a pre-pandemic world, a lot of leaders got their titles as a rite of passage or a reward for longevity. They weren't leaders at all. They were in the right place at the right time, and the playbook they used was well thumbed and easy to follow.

We're living in a time in which the rules are different. Many of them no longer exist. And yet so many leaders are still trying to turn the clock back to 2019. Most of the references we hear today are about returning. But the winners will be those who re-imagine.

Human beings, by nature, are creatures of habit and risk adverse. And the status quo is a compelling drug.

But leadership has always been about looking ahead. About telling a story, building trust and keeping people moving forward.

There's risk involved in all of that. You might be wrong. It might not work.

Which is when leaders step forward and try again.

Which, when you think of it, sums up the entire history of human evolution.

What story do you want to write?

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

Gerry Graf is the Co-Founder of Slap Global. They describe themselves as a business accelerator fueled by creativity. Gerry is best known as the founder of Barton F. Graf 9000 - which he built into one of the most acclaimed advertising agencies in America.

Business Insider named Gerry "The Most Creative Man in Advertising". Newsweek called him one of the "New Don Drapers". PBS featured Barton as one of the new innovative shops in "The Real Mad Men of Madison Ave". Forbes named Barton one of the 14 Most Influential Agencies in America. Fast Company named Barton one of the Most Innovative Advertising Agencies and Gerry one of the 100 Most Creative People in Business. And AdAge included Barton in their A-List issue 8 out of 9 years and named Gerry one of the 50 "biggest and best thinkers and doers from 20 years of advertising and consumer culture."

Despite all of this, the company closed after ten years.

Success and failure are cousins. So are risk and fear. You can't have one without the other.

How we see them and what we learn from them shape the course of our lives.

In a pre-pandemic world, a lot of leaders got their titles as a rite of passage or a reward for longevity. They weren't leaders at all. They were in the right place at the right time, and the playbook they used was well thumbed and easy to follow.

We're living in a time in which the rules are different. Many of them no longer exist. And yet so many leaders are still trying to turn the clock back to 2019. Most of the references we hear today are about returning. But the winners will be those who re-imagine.

Human beings, by nature, are creatures of habit and risk adverse. And the status quo is a compelling drug.

But leadership has always been about looking ahead. About telling a story, building trust and keeping people moving forward.

There's risk involved in all of that. You might be wrong. It might not work.

Which is when leaders step forward and try again.

Which, when you think of it, sums up the entire history of human evolution.

What story do you want to write?

Michael Korda is the Editor-in-Chief Emeritus of Simon & Schuster.

We could spend this entire episode talking only about the highlights of Michael's life. He grew up in 1930s London in a family of movie industry icons. As you'll hear, he became close friends with Graham Greene, traveled to Budapest to attend the Hungarian Revolution, and joined the RAF. He did all this before he turned 25.

At Simon and Schuster he published books by Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, Henry Kissinger, Harold Robbins and Jacqueline Susann, among others. He edited and published all 43 of Mary Higgins Clark's books, and most, if not all, of Larry McMurtry's books, including Lonesome Dove.

As a writer, he published over two dozen books of his own, from the autobiographical to the definitive historical accounts of Robert E. Lee and TE Lawrence, better known as Lawrence of Arabia.

He has lived several lives in this one, and helped countless others tell the story of theirs.

He has survived wars, the London Blitz and cancer. And at the end of our conversation, I asked him about the role that fear has played in his extraordinary life.

In a world growing more uncertain by the day, living a full and rich life is increasingly challenging. The media fills us with reasons to be afraid. And the debate between trying to stay informed, and trying to get on and live life can fill the mind with a Rubik's cube of choices.

When you add on top of that, the challenges and risks that come with the responsibility of leading others, then the potential for fear to take over from rational thinking becomes a serious threat.

Fear is a powerful force. In daylight we are embarrassed by it. At night, we are scarred by it. Rarely do we choose to shine a light on it.

But it is only when we do, only when we admit to ourselves that we are afraid, can we hope to move beyond it. And only then can we help others to join us on the other side.

And then, you can have a life so rich with possibility that it is unimaginable that everything you have experienced could belong to one person.

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

Michael Korda is the Editor-in-Chief Emeritus of Simon & Schuster.

We could spend this entire episode talking only about the highlights of Michael's life. He grew up in 1930s London in a family of movie industry icons. As you'll hear, he became close friends with Graham Greene, traveled to Budapest to attend the Hungarian Revolution, and joined the RAF. He did all this before he turned 25.

At Simon and Schuster he published books by Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, Henry Kissinger, Harold Robbins and Jacqueline Susann, among others. He edited and published all 43 of Mary Higgins Clark's books, and most, if not all, of Larry McMurtry's books, including Lonesome Dove.

As a writer, he published over two dozen books of his own, from the autobiographical to the definitive historical accounts of Robert E. Lee and TE Lawrence, better known as Lawrence of Arabia.

He has lived several lives in this one, and helped countless others tell the story of theirs.

He has survived wars, the London Blitz and cancer. And at the end of our conversation, I asked him about the role that fear has played in his extraordinary life.

In a world growing more uncertain by the day, living a full and rich life is increasingly challenging. The media fills us with reasons to be afraid. And the debate between trying to stay informed, and trying to get on and live life can fill the mind with a Rubik's cube of choices.

When you add on top of that, the challenges and risks that come with the responsibility of leading others, then the potential for fear to take over from rational thinking becomes a serious threat.

Fear is a powerful force. In daylight we are embarrassed by it. At night, we are scarred by it. Rarely do we choose to shine a light on it.

But it is only when we do, only when we admit to ourselves that we are afraid, can we hope to move beyond it. And only then can we help others to join us on the other side.

And then, you can have a life so rich with possibility that it is unimaginable that everything you have experienced could belong to one person.

Justin Thomas-Copeland is the CEO of DDB, North America. He's a dynamic, charismatic leader with a long history of building successful businesses and creating change.

It would be great if the state of society allowed us to end the story there. But for all of his many, many accomplishments, Justin's appointment generated attention because of one characteristic that is incredibly rare among CEOs of major companies. He's black.

In fact, rare might be an exaggeration. For instance, the Fortune 500 contains four black CEOs. That's down from its all-time high of six. If the leadership of Fortune 500 companies simply reflected American society, there would be 67.

It is beyond absurd, beyond outrageous that we even have to say this out loud. Things need to change. And Justin Thomas-Copeland is a change agent.

We talk too often about leaders guiding their people through periods of change. But in a business fueled by its capacity to unlock creative thinking and innovation, change is not a temporary state but a permanent one. A company needs to be different tomorrow. It needs to know more and understand better. It has to have a higher tolerance for risk, a greater appetite for exploration and deeper self awareness. And that needs to be true every day.

And what makes all that work is showing up as a leader with what Justin describes as the right intent. A set of values and beliefs that withstand the short term set-backs that get in the way, and which overcome the skepticism, the suspicion and the fear that greet most leaders who are trying to lead systemic change.

The lack of diversity among the senior leadership of American business is a systemic issue.

Changing it will require determination and trust at an unprecedented scale. It will require leaders who have the right intent.

What's yours?

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

Justin Thomas-Copeland is the CEO of DDB, North America. He's a dynamic, charismatic leader with a long history of building successful businesses and creating change.

It would be great if the state of society allowed us to end the story there. But for all of his many, many accomplishments, Justin's appointment generated attention because of one characteristic that is incredibly rare among CEOs of major companies. He's black.

In fact, rare might be an exaggeration. For instance, the Fortune 500 contains four black CEOs. That's down from its all-time high of six. If the leadership of Fortune 500 companies simply reflected American society, there would be 67.

It is beyond absurd, beyond outrageous that we even have to say this out loud. Things need to change. And Justin Thomas-Copeland is a change agent.

We talk too often about leaders guiding their people through periods of change. But in a business fueled by its capacity to unlock creative thinking and innovation, change is not a temporary state but a permanent one. A company needs to be different tomorrow. It needs to know more and understand better. It has to have a higher tolerance for risk, a greater appetite for exploration and deeper self awareness. And that needs to be true every day.

And what makes all that work is showing up as a leader with what Justin describes as the right intent. A set of values and beliefs that withstand the short term set-backs that get in the way, and which overcome the skepticism, the suspicion and the fear that greet most leaders who are trying to lead systemic change.

The lack of diversity among the senior leadership of American business is a systemic issue.

Changing it will require determination and trust at an unprecedented scale. It will require leaders who have the right intent.

What's yours?

Khurrum Malik is the Head of Global Business Marketing at Spotify, which makes him and his team responsible for bringing the company's benefits to listeners and advertisers alike. It also places him at the border crossing of creativity and technology.

The pressure from both sides of those territories is relentless. And you can't manage them alone for long without being run over.

Science versus uncertainty. Data versus instinct. The art of leading companies that rely on creative thinking and innovation requires - or more accurately, demands - that you are open and available and supporters of all.

It also demands that you bring in help to stand alongside you.

People with their own talents, experiences and passions.

A team that you trust to share your beliefs and your principles.

Today, it's never been harder to build that team.

Creativity is the most human - perhaps uniquely human - characteristic. It is revealed by a problem, powered by a tolerance for risk and scaled by the capacity to trust.

For every company, your growth potential and your trajectory is directly correlated to your leadership's capacity to engender trust.

I'm going to have a lot more to say about this in an upcoming episode. But for now, this quick checklist will help.

At the end of every call, make a quick note to yourself that captures the answers to these four questions.

Did I ask them how they were? Do I remember what they said?

Did I say what I meant? Did I mean what I said?

If you can't honestly, hand on heart honestly, answer yes to every question after every call — every call — you have a trust gap.

And until you close it, you'll have a creativity and innovation gap.

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

Khurrum Malik is the Head of Global Business Marketing at Spotify, which makes him and his team responsible for bringing the company's benefits to listeners and advertisers alike. It also places him at the border crossing of creativity and technology.

The pressure from both sides of those territories is relentless. And you can't manage them alone for long without being run over.

Science versus uncertainty. Data versus instinct. The art of leading companies that rely on creative thinking and innovation requires - or more accurately, demands - that you are open and available and supporters of all.

It also demands that you bring in help to stand alongside you.

People with their own talents, experiences and passions.

A team that you trust to share your beliefs and your principles.

Today, it's never been harder to build that team.

Creativity is the most human - perhaps uniquely human - characteristic. It is revealed by a problem, powered by a tolerance for risk and scaled by the capacity to trust.

For every company, your growth potential and your trajectory is directly correlated to your leadership's capacity to engender trust.

I'm going to have a lot more to say about this in an upcoming episode. But for now, this quick checklist will help.

At the end of every call, make a quick note to yourself that captures the answers to these four questions.

Did I ask them how they were? Do I remember what they said?

Did I say what I meant? Did I mean what I said?

If you can't honestly, hand on heart honestly, answer yes to every question after every call — every call — you have a trust gap.

And until you close it, you'll have a creativity and innovation gap.

Hashem Bajwa describes himself as a creative leader that uses imagination, intuition and inclusivity to create experiences that bring people together. He's done that at Goodby Silverstein, at Droga5, and for the last six years at Apple, where he was Director of Strategy, working with Angela Ahrendts to reimagine Apple retail, including the Apple Store.

I've spent a lot of time over the last few episodes talking with my guests about the personal and human challenges of leadership in a COVID, climate change, DEI driven world.

Hashem and I discussed that too.

But this episode is a case study in managing change at enormous scale, to the highest standards and under the brightest of lights. It is filled with practical explanations that have helped create one of the most creative, innovative, visible and valuable businesses of any lifetime.

Leading what's right in front of you is challenging. Leading people who are miles and time zones and cultures apart is exponentially harder. Force of personality quickly get diluted over time and space, and out of sight, out of mind willingly steps in to fill the gaps.

Before you know it, you're not leading an organization, you're managing siloed problems armed with a 'not invented here' resistance to change.

I've seen this up close in big businesses and small. In complex corporations and founder-led partnerships and in all cases, the leaders who were successful planted 'experience principles' into the fabric of their organization and then used those to guide, support and ultimately determine decision making across issues both small and business-changing.

When you're the leader, there's never enough of you to go around. And as we learn to work across hybrid work weeks and sometimes physical, sometimes virtual offices, the chances that you will find yourself in the right place at the right time all the time, has become essentially zero.

Leadership has a lot to do with giving people clarity and vision while encouraging them to bring their own unique thinking to the decision-making moments.

Today, that means finding ways to both guide and inspire their thinking even when you're not in the room.

Have you defined experience principles for your organization?

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

Hashem Bajwa describes himself as a creative leader that uses imagination, intuition and inclusivity to create experiences that bring people together. He's done that at Goodby Silverstein, at Droga5, and for the last six years at Apple, where he was Director of Strategy, working with Angela Ahrendts to reimagine Apple retail, including the Apple Store.

I've spent a lot of time over the last few episodes talking with my guests about the personal and human challenges of leadership in a COVID, climate change, DEI driven world.

Hashem and I discussed that too.

But this episode is a case study in managing change at enormous scale, to the highest standards and under the brightest of lights. It is filled with practical explanations that have helped create one of the most creative, innovative, visible and valuable businesses of any lifetime.

Leading what's right in front of you is challenging. Leading people who are miles and time zones and cultures apart is exponentially harder. Force of personality quickly get diluted over time and space, and out of sight, out of mind willingly steps in to fill the gaps.

Before you know it, you're not leading an organization, you're managing siloed problems armed with a 'not invented here' resistance to change.

I've seen this up close in big businesses and small. In complex corporations and founder-led partnerships and in all cases, the leaders who were successful planted 'experience principles' into the fabric of their organization and then used those to guide, support and ultimately determine decision making across issues both small and business-changing.

When you're the leader, there's never enough of you to go around. And as we learn to work across hybrid work weeks and sometimes physical, sometimes virtual offices, the chances that you will find yourself in the right place at the right time all the time, has become essentially zero.

Leadership has a lot to do with giving people clarity and vision while encouraging them to bring their own unique thinking to the decision-making moments.

Today, that means finding ways to both guide and inspire their thinking even when you're not in the room.

Have you defined experience principles for your organization?