when it comes to business development, it that can actually be a bit of a mistake, I think there has to be a bit of ruthlessness. And I say that in the best sense of the term, but some self interest in business development and the ability to say no, as needed, and also to retain control over the pitch process and not give the give the entire control to the client, which I see all the time.

Katie Robbert never planned to be an expert in AI and analytics, but she says she likes "numbers to add up" even though she considers herself bad at math. As a self-professed planner, Katie found herself telling stories with data, first for a pharmaceutical company and later for a PR agency. Today, Katie is the co-founder and CEO of Trust Insights, a consultancy dedicated to working with clients to uncover valuable nuggets in the data that often piles up unused in many businesses. Chip talks with Katie about how agencies can leverage data on their own behalf, as well as for their clients.

.Podcasts can be powerful tools for agencies to showcase thought leadership, make connections, and build their own brands. New research from Dante32, a podcast production and promotion agency, looks at how brands are deploying their podcasts what that indicates about best practices. Chip and Gini use this research as a jumping off point to share their insights on using podcasts in the agency context. They review the key findings from Dante32 -- and of course have a little fun along the way.

Guest Scott Schilling

Guest Neil Thompson

Guest R. Shawn McBride

Guest Pam Thomas

When Sean Cassidy walked out of Tufts University in 1990, he graduated with a major in Cold War foreign policy -- just as the Soviet Union was about to dissolve. He hadn't aspired to a career in public relations, but it turned out he was a good writer and he caught the eye of a small agency owner. Three decades later, Sean leads DKC, a prominent independent PR agency headquartered in New York. They recently rolled out a new tagline: "maximizing return on news." In this episode, he explains why he believes PR agencies should be news-driven organizations and what skills that requires. He and Chip also explore the role of analytics, the benefits of spending time working in politics, and more.

The co-hosts discuss an article that Gini wrote for Spin Sucks that looks at 6 reasons that agency owners have trouble scaling. The conversation includes lots of actionable ideas -- despite Chip's best efforts to sidetrack things as he struggles to remember high school science basics in making an analogy. Reason #1: You Don't Have a Business Plan Reason #2: You Can't Break Free from Client Work Reason #3: Operating In Chaos Reason #4: Freakin' Technology! Who Can Keep Up? Reason #5: Not Understanding the Whole "Measurement" Thing Reason #6: You Lose Focus Agency owners are entrepreneurs and Gini notes that tends to come with a certain level of stubbornness. Or as Chip put it: "There's great similarity between a toddler and an entrepreneur." The pair try to help owners break out of this tendency to find solutions and help them scale.

Guest Joe Folkman