Free Range Humans

Anthony Mackay is the immediate past CEO and current Co-Chair of the Washington DC-based National Center on Education and the Economy, while also serving as Deputy Chancellor, Swinburne University, Melbourne, Australia; Honorary Senior Fellow of the Graduate School of Education at the University of Melbourne; and Visiting Professor to the International Centre for Educational Enhancement, University of Bolton, UK. He has held multiple positions within education and continues to consult in parts of the United States, United Kingdom, and Australia – it's safe to say that Tony has been leading or part of every important global conversation around education in the last 20 years. Highlights from this season premiere episode include: an opening dialogue that reminds everyone of how old they are; artificial intelligence's disruptive nature and whether it can be viewed as a mirror showcasing what tasks no longer make sense in education systems; comparing AI to a "crappy intern;" how we can identify localized innovation and build it into larger scale transformation; the redefining of education to be focused on human flourishing – moving towards the portrait of a learner that is caring for self, others and the planet; and of course producer Gino's lightning round with an AI twist! 

Check out the OECD Digital Education Outlook 2026

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Alisa Berger is now a Free Range Humans regular, making her fourth appearance on the podcast. She was the founding co-principal of the New York City iSchool and is the author of How To Innovate: The Essential Guide for Fearless School Leaders, among many other accomplishments. Jal was very interested in bringing this topic to the table in an effort to better balance perspectives on progressive education, many examples of which appear throughout season four of the podcast. Highlights from the episode include: defining progressive education and examining some of the misconceptions; illustrating pitfalls and challenges while also giving advice on how to avoid them; distinguishing between classroom level and system level approaches; what it takes to really build student-centered experiences that work; the importance of balancing student and teacher agency; an opening conversation on summer fun that sheds light on the sensitive side of our producer; and a lightning round that combines insurance commercials, snacks, and a personal revelation from each participant. 

Thanks again to all of our listeners for staying engaged and supporting our work. Season four is officially in the books, but we already have interviews lined up for the fall, with the start of season five scheduled for September! Cheers!

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Kyle Peruniak is a former wildland firefighter and current land-based educator in British Columbia. He is focused on creating inclusive experiences that promote empathy for the land, respect and appreciation for indigenous perspectives and ways of knowing, and provide youth with healthy, rich, learning opportunities. Lori Hryniuk is an experienced public school secondary Principal and educator who has a keen interest in redesigning how we organize schools. She is motivated to empower educators to think differently about their teaching practice and to help create authentic, engaging, inclusive learning environments with a focus on CORE and curricular competencies. Both are now working to support land-based learning initiatives in K-12 schools across British Columbia. Highlights from their conversation with Rod and Jal include: what prompted Lori to step away from the traditional education system; a brief history of Kyle's career as a wildland firefighter and how it shaped his leadership development; defining land-based learning and what distinguishes it from "outdoor education/recreation"; the importance of reciprocity with the land and developing respect and agency across every level of the education community; how land-based learning can transform student identity and engagement—even in urban settings; and a lightning round that will make you want to do some karaoke! 

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Paige Fisher is an associate professor at Vancouver Island University with 18 years of experience in teacher education and leadership development. Her work has included embedded teacher ed programs, Indigenous teacher education initiatives, and explorations of non-traditional grading and assessment. Highlights from her conversation with Rod and Jal include: reflections on her own experiences as a student and teacher; a powerful story that illustrates the disconnect between traditional grading and student potential; how working at a community-driven homeschool program reshaped her approach to education; how Indigenous teachings have guided her leadership development; an emphasis on teaching with kindness and building community both in and out of the classroom; why you sometimes have to be more interesting than a goat to get students to pay attention; and a light-hearted lightning round that covers swimming and screen time habits!  

Read Dr. Fisher's Dissertation: The Stories We Planted: A Narrative Exploration of Evaluative School Experience

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SMASH isn’t new — it’s been doing things differently for over 50 years, emphasizing multi-age classrooms, social-emotional learning, looping, and strong adult-child relationships. Jessica Rishe (principal) and Malika Boyer (6th grade teacher) share how the school cultivates trust, responsibility, and belonging across all grade levels — and why it still stands out even as others catch on to ideas like project-based learning and social-emotional learning. Highlights from the conversation include: how multi-age groupings shape student growth and leadership; the importance of a fully informed and integrated parent population; why respect goes much further than titles and first names; how SMASH builds a culture that encourages staff to stay; whether students feel prepared and are able to excel as they move on to more traditional high school environments; can the model scale as the school continues to grow; what influence SMASH has had on the greater community; and a lightning round that will have you feeling lucky! 

Learn more about SMASH: www.smmusd.org/smash

Questions? Thoughts? Feedback? 

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Libby Woodfin is a writer and educator from western Massachusetts. She has authored or co-authored nine books for teachers and published numerous articles and blogs for educational outlets such as EdWeek, Middleweb and Educational Leadership. Libby began her career as a fifth and sixth-grade teacher at the original lab school for the Responsive Classroom in Greenfield, Massachusetts, and went on to become a counselor at a large comprehensive high school. Highlights from the conversation include: a little background on Libby's "hockey" playing career; the definition of a "human school" and why it matters now more than ever; tackling the question of what kind of human beings our world needs, and what role can schools play in creating those human beings; real world examples from various sites both Libby and Jal have visited; reflections on the future of learning; how schools are grappling with AI and how it fits within the human school model; and a lightning round that has everyone facing their fears! 

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Crosstown High is a learner-centered public charter school that engages students in meaningful, project-based work and authentic relationships that will prepare them to be self-directed, lifelong learners. Erin Johnson is the Head of School and an an art teacher, while Ginger Spickler carries the title of Director of Sustainability while also serving on the leadership team. Highlights from their conversation with Rod and Jal include: how a billboard sparked the idea for starting the school; how design thinking shaped the model, and how project-based learning, and diversity by design came to define the school’s DNA; the importance of creating a space for students to actually make decisions, fail often and safely, and grow from those failures; why relationships between staff, students, parents and the larger community are a key growth driver; Jal sharing an experience from his visit that illustrates the power of blue sky thinking and of course, snacks; and a lightning round that also manages to bring food into the conversation. 

Learn more about the school: www.crosstownhigh.org

Questions? Thoughts? Feedback? 

Email us at  [email protected] or Tweet us at @jal_mehta and @Rodroad219

Peter M. Senge is the founding chair of SoL (Society of Organizational Learning), a global network of organizations, researchers, and consultants dedicated to the “interdependent development of people and their institutions”, a Senior Lecturer at MIT's Sloan School of Management, and cofounder of the Academy for Systemic Change, which seeks to accelerate the growth of the field of systemic change worldwide. Jill Jensen is currently serving as Superintendent of Schools for the Gulf Islands District in British Columbia, and is working to implement both compassionate systems and deeper learning into her education communities. Their conversation with Rod and Jal covers many topics including: opening banter on the state of things at Harvard University amidst the political turmoil; a brief look at the history of our "factory model" of schooling and why it might be time to reexamine the purpose of education; how compassionate systems leadership and deeper learning models are aligned; real world examples from Jill's on-the-ground experiences; the importance of student voices when evaluating existing systems; how brain science is laying the foundation for more mindfulness and reflective practices in schools; and a lightning round that gets dark in a hurry! 

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Rod and Jal make a plug for their upcoming "Deeper Learning Ed Camp," an off-the-grid summer camp for school-based educators seeking inspiration, rejuvenation, and connection with like-minded colleagues from around the country who believe in the power of deeper learning for students. The camp program features several leaders in the field, including past podcast guests such as Ron Berger, Michele Shannon, Aliza Berger, and of course, Rod and Jal themselves! If you are interested in learning more, check out the link below, and stay tuned as the second half of season four kicks off in a few days!

www.deeperlearningdozen.org/edcamp

Questions? Thoughts? Feedback? 

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Jessica Nordell holds degrees in physics from Harvard and poetry from the University of Wisconsin, where she was the Martha Meier Renk Distinguished Graduate Fellow in Poetry. Her unique blend of experience allows for a writing style that combines rigorous science with a poetic compassion for humanity. Highlights from her conversation with Rod and Jal include: an opening anecdote that shows how a gender transition exposed biases in the scientific community; a changed first name that forever changed Jessica's career; background and history on unconscious bias, and why we all carry it; anti-bias training exemplars that provide hope for meaningful change; why bias work is ethical, and when done well, incredibly rewarding; a powerful story of transformative empathy in law enforcement; and a lightning round that explores everyones' reading style. 

Check out Jessica's book: "The End of Bias: A Beginning–How We Eliminate Unconscious Bias and Create a More Just World"

And newsletter: "Who We Are To Each Other"

Questions? Thoughts? Feedback? 

Email us at  [email protected] or Tweet us at @jal_mehta and @Rodroad219