Michelle Norrali, a senior software engineer for Microsoft, wrote a statement on a whiteboard during Helm’s first days when she worked with Matt Butcher at Deis, which Microsoft acquired in 2017. “From zero to dopamine in five minutes,” is still the phrase Butcher, a principal software development engineer for Microsoft, and his team use to measure how they are building a developer experience for the popular package manager used to get Kubernetes up and going.

In this edition of The New Stack Makers podcast, host Alex Williams, founder and publisher of The New Stack, speaks with Butcher and Matt Farina, a senior staff engineer for Samsung, about how updates to Helm help improve the overall Kubernetes experience and balance usability in such a large community to provide the best developer experience.