Future Finance

In this special episode of Future Finance, hosts Paul Barnhurst and Glenn Hopper explore how AI agents and productivity tools like Excel’s newest features are transforming the finance function. They contrast grassroots, employee-led innovation with large-scale, enterprise-driven AI projects, offering practical guidance and examples from their own experiments.

Expect to Learn:

• The difference between top-down and bottom-up AI deployments in organizations
• Why “shadow AI” and “secret cyborgs” are redefining workplace productivity
• The crucial role of change management in enterprise AI adoption
• What Excel’s new AI agent can (and can’t) do for financial modeling

Glenn Hopper and Paul Barnhurst deliver an insightful look into how AI is reshaping the finance profession, from enterprise-wide transformations to individual experimentation. Their discussion on agents, automation, and Excel’s evolving capabilities highlights how innovation and adaptability are redefining what it means to be a modern finance leader in a technology-driven world.

Join hosts Glenn and Paul as they unravel the complexities of AI in finance:

Follow Glenn:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gbhopperiii

Follow Paul:

LinkedIn -  https://www.linkedin.com/in/thefpandaguy

Follow QFlow.AI:

Website - https://bit.ly/4i1Ekjg

Future Finance is sponsored by QFlow.ai, the strategic finance platform solving the toughest part of planning and analysis: B2B revenue. Align sales, marketing, and finance, speed up decision-making, and lock in accountability with QFlow.ai.

Stay tuned for a deeper understanding of how AI is shaping the future of finance and what it means for businesses and individuals alike.

In Today’s Episode:

[00:22] - Top-Down vs Bottom-Up AI Adoption & Excel Agents

[01:26] - Building a Personal AI Agent

[04:01] - Top-Down vs Bottom-Up AI Strategy Explained

[06:41] - Change Management in AI Projects

[08:42] - Bottom-Up AI: Enable Use, Ensure Safety

[11:10] - Excel’s 40th Anniversary

[17:13] - Evaluating Excel's DCF Output

[18:23] - Final Thoughts and Takeaways

In this special episode of Future Finance, your hosts, Glenn Hopper and Paul Barnhurst, explore how artificial intelligence is making waves in the finance world. They explore two distinct approaches to AI adoption: top-down initiatives, driven by company leadership, and bottom-up strategies, where employees are introducing AI tools on their own. Glenn and Paul also discuss the latest AI tools in Microsoft Excel, including AI agents, and how they’re transforming financial modeling and decision-making. Tune in for a mix of practical advice, real-world experiences, and a bit of humor along the way.

In this episode, you will discover:

• How top-down and bottom-up AI adoption strategies differ in business.
• Why employee-driven AI innovation is on the rise and how to manage it.
• The role of AI-powered tools like Excel Labs in transforming financial work.
• How AI agents can help upskill finance professionals and streamline tasks.

Glenn and Paul explore the evolving role of AI in finance, from top-down strategies to employee-driven innovation. They highlight the potential of AI tools like Excel Labs and AI agents to transform financial processes. Tune in for insights on how embracing AI can help professionals stay ahead in a rapidly changing field.

Join hosts Glenn and Paul as they unravel the complexities of AI in finance:

Follow Glenn:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gbhopperiii

Follow Paul:

LinkedIn -  https://www.linkedin.com/in/thefpandaguy

Follow QFlow.AI:

Website - https://bit.ly/4i1Ekjg

Future Finance is sponsored by QFlow.ai, the strategic finance platform solving the toughest part of planning and analysis: B2B revenue. Align sales, marketing, and finance, speed up decision-making, and lock in accountability with QFlow.ai.

Stay tuned for a deeper understanding of how AI is shaping the future of finance and what it means for businesses and individuals alike.

In Today’s Episode:

[05:17] - Glenn’s New Book for Wiley

[08:21] - The AI Budget Mandate

[12:11] - Managing Bottom-Up AI Adoption

[15:39] - The Carol Office Question

[26:00] - Why Use Hard-Coded XLOOKUP?

[29:56] - Building and Customizing an AI Agent

[36:36] - Career Transitions and AI in FP&A

[39:50] - Final Thoughts and Wrapping Up

In this episode, hosts Paul Barnhurst and Glenn Hopper discuss the realities behind the AI hype cycle and how it's playing out in finance, from inflated ROI expectations to unscalable AI tools and organizational chaos, Paul and Glenn unpack what’s working, what’s failing, and why so many companies are stuck. With no guest this week, the duo shares their honest takes on the state of AI, its practical limits in financial workflows, and how companies are fumbling both bottom-up adoption and top-down implementation. This one’s a mix of hot takes, technical insight, and just enough despair to keep things real.

In this episode, you will discover:

• How bottom-up AI adoption is outpacing executive-led rollouts in finance.
• The problem with inflated expectations and what’s really causing AI project failures.
• Why Excel tools powered by AI are promising, but limited by context windows.
• How governance and data issues are crippling enterprise AI strategies.
• What OpenAI, Oracle, Nvidia, and Microsoft’s latest moves mean for the AI landscape.

AI isn’t a magic solution; it’s a powerful tool that still depends on good data, realistic goals, and a bit of patience. Paul and Glenn make it clear that while the hype is loud, real progress takes thoughtful implementation and education. The future of AI in finance looks promising, but only for teams willing to do the work.

Join hosts Glenn and Paul as they unravel the complexities of AI in finance:

Follow Glenn:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gbhopperiii

Follow Paul:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thefpandaguy

Follow QFlow.AI:

Website - https://bit.ly/4i1Ekjg

Future Finance is sponsored by QFlow.ai, the strategic finance platform solving the toughest part of planning and analysis: B2B revenue. Align sales, marketing, and finance, speed up decision-making, and lock in accountability with QFlow.ai.

Stay tuned for a deeper understanding of how AI is shaping the future of finance and what it means for businesses and individuals alike.

In Today’s Episode:

[01:56] - AI Hype Cycle Meltdown

[04:50] - AI Tools in Excel

[07:33] - Bottom-Up vs Top-Down Adoption

[11:33] - Why AI Projects Fail

[14:38] - Change Management Gaps

[17:23] - Context Window Limitations

[20:30] - Learn the Basics of AI

[23:11] - Oracle, Nvidia & OpenAI Deals

[30:07] - Microsoft Adds Anthropic to Copilot

[34:24] - Copilot Improvement & Wrap-Up

In this episode of Future Finance, hosts Glenn Hopper and Paul Barnhurst sit down with Franz Faerber, Co-founder and CTO of Lensing, formerly Everest Systems, and one of the key minds behind SAP HANA. Franz shares his remarkable journey from leading SAP’s real-time database revolution to building a next-generation ERP platform designed from the ground up to embrace AI and modern business needs.

Franz Faerber is the Co-founder and CTO of Lensing, an AI-native ERP company formerly known as Everest Systems. Before founding the company, Franz spent over 26 years at SAP, where he served as Executive VP of Technology and was the original architect behind SAP HANA, one of the most advanced in-memory databases in the world. His work helped transform data processing and analytics for thousands of global enterprises. Today, through Lensing, he is working to rethink ERP from the ground up, using AI and agile development to address the inefficiencies of traditional systems.

In this episode, you will discover:

• Why the ERP space is finally ready for disruption and how Franz approaches building a modern alternative.
• How the team built a fully functional inventory management system in just four months without writing a single line of code.
• The role of AI in accelerating ERP development, reducing costs, and enabling mass personalization.
• Why Franz believes the future of ERP lies in integration, automation, and adaptability.

Franz Faerber’s insights offer a compelling vision for the future of ERP, one where AI, speed, and simplicity are no longer optional but essential. His journey from SAP HANA to building what is now Lensing showcases what’s possible when innovation meets experience.

Follow Franz:

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/franz-faerber/

Company - https://lensing.ai

Join hosts Glenn and Paul as they unravel the complexities of AI in finance:

Follow Glenn:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gbhopperiii

Follow Paul:

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/thefpandaguy

Follow QFlow.AI:

Website - https://bit.ly/4i1Ekjg

Future Finance is sponsored by QFlow.ai, the strategic finance platform solving the toughest part of planning and analysis: B2B revenue. Align sales, marketing, and finance, speed up decision-making, and lock in accountability with QFlow.ai.

Stay tuned for a deeper understanding of how AI is shaping the future of finance and what it means for businesses and individuals alike.

In Today’s Episode:

[00:00] - Trailer

[02:18] - Meet Franz Faerber

[03:53] - The SAP HANA Revolution

[09:00] - Leaving SAP for Everest

[10:39] - Why Build a New ERP?

[18:36] - Dev & Release Cycles

[21:20] - What Sets the Platform Apart

[25:48] - Leadership & Vision

[29:32] - Chess, Books & Strategy

[33:20] - Final Thoughts

In this episode of Future Finance, hosts Paul Barnhurst and Glenn Hopper welcome Jeff Seibert, CEO and founder of Digits, a cutting-edge accounting platform. Jeff shares how Digits is transforming the finance world by automating accounting workflows and providing real-time visibility into financial data. He explains how integrating modern technology into the general ledger (GL) and other accounting processes is streamlining the financial close and eliminating inefficiencies that have long been part of traditional systems.

Jeff Seibert is the founder and CEO of Digits, a groundbreaking accounting platform. Previously, he was Twitter's Head of Consumer Product and appeared in the Emmy-winning Netflix documentary The Social Dilemma. Jeff co-founded Crashlytics, acquired by Twitter in 2013 and now owned by Google. A self-taught programmer, he started coding at 13 and graduated from Stanford with a B.S. in Computer Science. Jeff is also an angel investor in over 100 startups and was named one of Insider’s Top 100 Seed VCs.

Expect to Learn:

• The difference between traditional and AI-native accounting systems
• How Digits uses machine learning for near-perfect transaction classification
• Why legacy systems struggle with AI and how Digits solves it
• How predictive models enable real-time financial insights
• Jeff’s predictions on AI’s future in finance, automation, and reconciliation

Jeff Seibert provides a fascinating insight into the future of finance, showcasing how AI can transform the accounting space from a slow and manual process to one that’s fast, predictive, and automated. His journey from self-taught programmer to CEO of a company revolutionizing accounting highlights the power of innovation in today’s tech-driven world.

Follow Jeff:

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jseibert/

Website - https://jeffseibert.com/

Company - https://digits.com/

Join hosts Glenn and Paul as they unravel the complexities of AI in finance:

Follow Glenn:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gbhopperiii

Follow Paul:

LinkedIn -  https://www.linkedin.com/in/thefpandaguy

Follow QFlow.AI:

Website - https://bit.ly/4i1Ekjg

Future Finance is sponsored by QFlow.ai, the strategic finance platform solving the toughest part of planning and analysis: B2B revenue. Align sales, marketing, and finance, speed up decision-making, and lock in accountability with QFlow.ai.

Stay tuned for a deeper understanding of how AI is shaping the future of finance and what it means for businesses and individuals alike.

In Today’s Episode:

[00:00] - Introduction to Jeff Seibert

[02:25] - What Inspired Jeff to Start Digits

[05:24] - How Did Jeff Overcome the Data Gap

[08:11] - Did You Expect the Digits Timeline

[12:38] - AI Agents in Classification

[16:50] - The Future of Real-Time Accounting

[18:43] - Wrapping Up with Jeff Seibert

In this episode of Future Finance, hosts Glenn Hopper and Paul Barnhurst are joined by Jeff Seibert, founder and CEO of Digits. Jeff shares his journey from creating his first app at the age of 13 to building Digits, a platform that’s changing the way businesses approach accounting. With a background in tech and a passion for solving real-world problems, Jeff explains how his frustration with outdated financial systems led to the creation of Digits, which now provides real-time financial data to businesses.

Jeff Seibert is the founder and CEO of Digits, an innovative accounting platform that helps businesses manage their finances with real-time insights. Before starting Digits, Jeff co-founded Crashlytics, a mobile performance analytics company that was acquired by Twitter in 2013. He went on to lead Twitter's consumer product team and later appeared in the Emmy Award-winning Netflix documentary The Social Dilemma. A self-taught programmer, Jeff has been a part of the startup world for years and has invested in over 100 companies, earning recognition as one of Insider's Top 100 Seed VCs.

In this episode, you will discover:

• How Jeff’s passion for coding started at age 13.
• The story behind founding Digits and solving slow financial systems.
• How Digits provides real-time financial data to businesses.
• Why traditional accounting systems fail and how Digits overcomes it.
• Jeff’s vision for AI and automation in the future of accounting.

Jeff shared his journey from building his first app at 13 to leading Digits, offering an insightful look at how modern accounting platforms are reshaping finance operations. His perspective on real-time financial data, overcoming the limitations of traditional systems, and the role of AI in automating workflows provides valuable guidance for finance leaders navigating the future of finance.

Follow Jeff:

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jseibert/

Website - https://jeffseibert.com/

Company - https://digits.com/

Join hosts Glenn and Paul as they unravel the complexities of AI in finance:

Follow Glenn:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gbhopperiii

Follow Paul:

LinkedIn -  https://www.linkedin.com/in/thefpandaguy

Follow QFlow.AI:

Website - https://bit.ly/4i1Ekjg

Future Finance is sponsored by QFlow.ai, the strategic finance platform solving the toughest part of planning and analysis: B2B revenue. Align sales, marketing, and finance, speed up decision-making, and lock in accountability with QFlow.ai.

Stay tuned for a deeper understanding of how AI is shaping the future of finance and what it means for businesses and individuals alike.

In Today’s Episode:

[02:25] - Jeff’s Background

[07:11] - Why Traditional Accounting Fails

[10:24] - Overcoming Data Challenges

[13:17] - The Long Road to Market

[17:42] - AI Agents in Real-Time Accounting

[21:55] - Overcoming AI Adoption Resistance

[23:20] - What’s Next for AI in Five Years

[25:41] - The Future of Accounting

[30:44] - Transition from Startup to Big Company

[33:56] - Personalized and Fun Questions for Jeff

In this episode, hosts Paul Barnhurst and Glenn Hopper explore the challenges and opportunities that come with incorporating AI into finance. They discuss why so many AI projects fall short of expectations, the importance of having clear processes and clean data, and how businesses can get the most out of these technologies. The conversation also covers the practical uses of tools like ChatGPT and Excel Copilot, and the need for realistic expectations when adopting new technology.

In this episode, you will discover:

• Why 95% of AI projects don’t deliver the results businesses expect.
• The critical role that data quality and solid workflows play in making AI work.
• How businesses are using tools like ChatGPT and Excel Copilot to enhance financial operations.
• How to integrate these tools effectively into existing systems.
• The importance of setting realistic goals and expectations when using new technologies.

Paul and Glenn stress that while AI offers great potential, it’s important to approach it with a clear understanding of its capabilities and limitations. They discuss how businesses can align technology with existing processes, manage expectations, and avoid common pitfalls.

Join hosts Glenn and Paul as they unravel the complexities of AI in finance:

Follow Glenn:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gbhopperiii

Follow Paul:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thefpandaguy

Follow QFlow.AI:

Website - https://bit.ly/4i1Ekjg

Future Finance is sponsored by QFlow.ai, the strategic finance platform solving the toughest part of planning and analysis: B2B revenue. Align sales, marketing, and finance, speed up decision-making, and lock in accountability with QFlow.ai.

Stay tuned for a deeper understanding of how AI is shaping the future of finance and what it means for businesses and individuals alike.

In Today’s Episode:

[00:41] - Welcome to the Episode

[01:07] - Funny News of This Week

[04:00] - Why AI Projects Underperform

[09:12] - AI Automation for New Hires: Realistic or Hype

[16:01] - Understanding AI Fundamentals in Finance

[17:41] - Thoughts on ChatGPT-5

[31:06] - Summary of Key Takeaways from the Episode

In this episode of Future Finance, hosts Glenn Hopper and Paul Barnhurst welcome Dennis Jiang, co-founder and CEO of Rosie. Dennis shares how Rosie helps professionals navigate complex spreadsheets, debug formulas, and optimize financial models. The conversation explores how AI is transforming spreadsheet use, streamlining tedious tasks, and empowering users to focus on strategic insights. Dennis also explains the unique challenges of integrating AI into financial workflows and how Rosie is changing the landscape of Excel usage for power users.

Dennis Jiang is the co-founder and CEO of Rosie, an AI-powered assistant that helps professionals understand, build, and analyze spreadsheets with ease. Dennis started his career as a consultant at Bain & Company, where he became an Excel whiz, so much so that he later worked as a freelance Excel consultant for high-profile clients like Apple. Having seen firsthand how much his clients and colleagues rely on spreadsheets yet struggle with them, Dennis founded Rosie to leverage agentic AI to finally solve that problem and help professionals focus on insights rather than wrestling with formulas.

In this episode, you will discover:

• How Rosie’s AI assistant redefines how professionals use Excel.
• The role of AI in auditing and debugging complex financial models.
• How Rosie saves time for finance teams by automating tedious tasks.
• The difference between Rosie and tools like Microsoft Copilot for advanced users.
• Why Dennis believes that spreadsheets will remain central to finance, even as AI technology evolves

Dennis shared his journey from consulting to founding Rosie, offering an inspiring look at how AI is transforming Excel modeling and financial workflows. His insights into automating tedious tasks, debugging complex models, and enhancing financial analysis provide invaluable guidance for professionals looking to leverage AI to improve productivity and decision-making.

Follow Dennis:

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/dennis-jiang-0387923/

Website - https://www.askrosie.ai/?utm_source=podcast&utm_campaign=futurefinance1

Special Offer for Our Listeners: Enjoy 1 free month of Rosie Premium (a $20 value) using the code FUTUREFINANCE at checkout.

Join hosts Glenn and Paul as they unravel the complexities of AI in finance:

Follow Glenn:

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/gbhopperiii

Follow Paul:

LinkedIn -  https://www.linkedin.com/in/thefpandaguy

Follow QFlow.AI:

Website - https://bit.ly/4i1Ekjg

Future Finance is sponsored by QFlow.ai, the strategic finance platform solving the toughest part of planning and analysis: B2B revenue. Align sales, marketing, and finance, speed up decision-making, and lock in accountability with QFlow.ai.

Stay tuned for a deeper understanding of how AI is shaping the future of finance and what it means for businesses and individuals alike.

In Today’s Episode:

[03:04] - Why Rosie Was Created

[05:22] - Microsoft’s AI Integration Struggles

[06:45] - Rosie vs. Microsoft Copilot

[10:05] - Managing AI Hallucinations with Rosie

[12:55] - Rosie’s First Fan Club Website

[17:08] - The Future of Entry-Level Roles in Finance

[20:50] - Modeling with Punch Cards

[26:23] - The Future of Financial Analyst Roles

[33:05] - The Aha Moment for Rosie

[36:21] - Wrapping Up and Free Access to Rosie

In this episode of Future Finance, host Glenn Hopper and co-host Paul Barnhurst welcome Nicolas Kopp, a visionary leader in the AI-native ERP space. Nicolas shares how AI is transforming finance operations by offering real-time visibility, automation, and a path to zero-day close. He explains how AI integration redefines financial workflows, from data ingestion and processing to output, offering a more streamlined approach compared to traditional systems.

Nicolas Kopp is the founder and CEO of Rillet, the AI-native ERP designed to automate accounting and close books faster. Backed by Sequoia, Rillet empowers accountants by integrating AI seamlessly into financial workflows. Previously, Nicolas served as the US CEO of N26, a fintech bank valued at $9 billion, where he played a key role in leading its expansion into the US market. Prior to N26, he spent five years in investment banking at Morgan Stanley. Nicolas holds a BA from the University of St. Gallen in Switzerland and an MSc in Accounting from the London School of Economics.

Expect to Learn:

• The difference between AI-native ERP systems and legacy systems
• How AI is transforming data ingestion and transaction processing in finance
• The role of AI agents in automating finance workflows, from cash transfers to accruals
• Why legacy systems struggle to integrate AI and how ReLit does it differently
• The typical implementation process for AI-native ERPs and how it compares to traditional ERP rollouts

Nicolas Kopp provided an insightful look at the future of finance and the potential of AI-native ERP systems. His work with ReLit showcases how AI can transform finance operations, offering real-time visibility and automating complex workflows. From narrowing the scope of AI agents to building smarter systems, Nicolas’ insights are invaluable for finance professionals looking to leverage AI for operational success.

Follow Nicolas:

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolas-kopp/

Website - https://www.rillet.com/

Join hosts Glenn and Paul as they unravel the complexities of AI in finance:

Follow Glenn:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gbhopperiii

Follow Paul:

LinkedIn -  https://www.linkedin.com/in/thefpandaguy

Follow QFlow.AI:

Website - https://bit.ly/4i1Ekjg

Future Finance is sponsored by QFlow.ai, the strategic finance platform solving the toughest part of planning and analysis: B2B revenue. Align sales, marketing, and finance, speed up decision-making, and lock in accountability with QFlow.ai.

Stay tuned for a deeper understanding of how AI is shaping the future of finance and what it means for businesses and individuals alike.

In Today’s Episode:

[01:10] - What Makes an AI-native ERP?

[03:22] - Integrating AI into Legacy Systems

[04:51] - Exploring AI Agents in Workflows

[07:24] - How Close Are We to Autonomous AI Agents?

[11:31] - The Challenge of Quick ERP Implementations

[15:45] - Celebrating Success and Sequoia Backing

In this episode of Future Finance, hosts Glenn Hopper and Paul Barnhurst sit down with Nicolas Kopp, the founder and CEO of Rillet, to discuss how AI is transforming finance operations. The episode dives deep into the practical applications of AI-native ERPs, with Nicolas explaining how his platform redefines general ledger management. The discussion explores the future of finance workflows, from the zero-day close to AI-driven automation in accounting tasks. It's a compelling conversation about integrating advanced technology into finance without needing deep technical expertise.

Nicolas Kopp is the founder and CEO of Rillet, the AI-native ERP designed to automate accounting and close books faster. Backed by Sequoia, Rillet empowers accountants by integrating AI seamlessly into financial workflows. Previously, Nicolas served as the US CEO of N26, a fintech bank valued at $9 billion, where he played a key role in leading its expansion into the US market. Prior to N26, he spent five years in investment banking at Morgan Stanley. Nicolas holds a BA from the University of St. Gallen in Switzerland and an MSc in Accounting from the London School of Economics.

In this episode, you will discover:

• How AI-native ERP systems like Rillet are revolutionizing general ledger operations.
• The process of automating complex accounting workflows with AI agents.
• Why finance leaders need to embrace AI and the practical steps to do so.
• The challenges and benefits of shifting from legacy systems to AI-driven platforms.
• How CFOs can leverage AI today, even without a dedicated tech team.

Nicolas shared his journey from investment banking to leading Rillet, offering an inspiring look at how AI-native ERPs are transforming finance operations. His insights on automating workflows, achieving zero-day closes, and embracing AI-driven innovation provide essential guidance for finance leaders looking to stay ahead in the evolving landscape. This episode is a must-listen for professionals eager to drive change, innovate, and lead with purpose in the AI-powered future of finance.

Follow Nicolas:

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolas-kopp/

Website - https://www.rillet.com/

Join hosts Glenn and Paul as they unravel the complexities of AI in finance:

Follow Glenn:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gbhopperiii

Follow Paul:

LinkedIn -  https://www.linkedin.com/in/thefpandaguy

Follow QFlow.AI:

Website - https://bit.ly/4i1Ekjg

Future Finance is sponsored by QFlow.ai, the strategic finance platform solving the toughest part of planning and analysis: B2B revenue. Align sales, marketing, and finance, speed up decision-making, and lock in accountability with QFlow.ai.

Stay tuned for a deeper understanding of how AI is shaping the future of finance and what it means for businesses and individuals alike.

In Today’s Episode:

[02:57] - What is an AI Native ERP?

[06:41] - AI Agents and Workflow

[09:15] - The Future of AI Agents with Autonomy

[11:47] - The Story Behind the General Ledger

[16:15] - The ERP Implementation Process

[23:43] - CFO Hesitations in Competitive Deals

[27:34] - Preparing Finance Leaders for AI Integration

[31:43] - Zero-Day Close as a Sport

[34:26] - Wrapping Up with Nicholas Kopp