Gangland Wire

By Gary Jenkins: Mafia Detective

Gangland Wire Crime Stories is a unique true crime podcast. The host, Gary Jenkins, is a former Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit Detective. Gary uses his experience to give insigtful twists on fam... more

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May 13, 2024 Louis Milito: Another Gravano Victim?
The interview delves into the life and criminal activities of Louis Milito, a mobster born in Brooklyn in 1942. The host, Gary Jenkins a retired Kansas City Police detective, discusses Molito’s upbringing in a neighborhood teeming with Sicilian immigrants and his involvement with the Rampers street gang alongside Sammy the Bull Gravano. Despite his criminal endeavors, Milito also pursued a career as a hairdresser, showcasing a surprising dichotomy in his persona.
Milito’s criminal journey includes car theft, jewelry heists, and involvement in high-profile murders like that of “Johnny Keys” Simone, a Philadelphia mobster. Milito’s loyalty to Gravano and the Gambino crime family is highlighted through his involvement in various criminal activities under their command. However, a grave mistake occurs when Milito and Gravano mistakenly murder a 16-year-old instead of the intended target, leading to unforeseen consequences. The episode explores Milito’s continued involvement in criminal activities, including a murder ordered by the Gambino underboss, Frank DiCicco. Amidst power struggles and changes within the Gambino family, Milito’s dissent towards Gravano’s rise in the hierarchy sets the stage for his eventual downfall. As Gravano ascends through the ranks, tensions rise within the family, leading to Milito’s imprisonment for tax evasion in 1984.
The narrative culminates in Milito’s final days filled with regret and poignant discussions with his wife, Lynda. The complex dynamics of loyalty and betrayal in the organized crime world are highlighted, showcasing the precarious existence mobsters like Milito navigated. Milito’s mysterious disappearance after a meeting with Gravano hints at a tragic end to his tumultuous life. The interview provides captivating insight into the intricate web of relationships, crimes, and internal conflicts that characterized Milito’s life as a mobster.
Check out Lynda Milito’s book – Mafia Wife: A Story of Love, Muder, and Madness.
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Subscribe to get new gangster stories every week.
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[0:00]Well, hey guys, welcome to the studio of Gangland Wire.
Glad to be back in here. I am a retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective.
Worked a mob for about 15 years in Kansas City.
Well, guys, I’ve been talking about a lot of different mobs and a lot of different
guys in the mob over the years.
And here’s a new one that I had not heard of before.
It was kind of important in his own way.
The guy, his real name is Librio Milito. I think it’s Milito.
[0:30]Anyhow, he was affectionately known as Louis Milito, and he made his entrance
into the world on April 26, 1942.
He was born in Bensonhurst, Brooklyn.
Big Sicilian population there, a real vibrant neighborhood, a lot of corner
stores and social clubs. You know, that’s where Gotti and a lot of these other
guys were growing up and hanging out around there.
And he was born to Sicilian immigrants, and his upbringing was shaped by that
rich cultural tapestry of this neighborhood.
Luis Milito was a spirited youth, as they say.
He found himself drawn in the world of petty crimes, as most of these guys were.
Were, and he eventually became a member of the Rampers.
Now, the Rampers was a local street gang known for its exploits throughout Brooklyn.
And guess who else was a significant member of the Rampers?
Our good friend, Sammy the Bull Gravano. Now, despite his diminutive stature,
he was kind of a small guy. He’s five foot seven.
He was strong. He was stronger than hell. Louie Milito, You know,
his physical proudness was exceptional.
[1:46]Exceptional, they said. In his 20s, he pursued a career that you wouldn’t think
a guy like this would pursue. He became a hairdresser.
He was a hairdresser and he got interested in this art and he really liked it.
And his wife, Linda, later on will write a book.
[2:04]And she attests to his exceptional skill as a hairdresser. Now, go figure that one.
Here’s going to be, I’m going to tell you about him. He’s a stone killer with
Sammy the Bull Gravano, but he also was a hairdresser.
[2:17]Now, some of his early criminal exploits were kind of the same as a lot of these guys.
We had a crew in Kansas City that came up like this.
And what they called it was trunking. They were breaking into car trunks and stealing stuff. of.
And lots of times these guys also, they graduate into breaking into the car
trunks of jewelry salesmen and other kinds of salesmen that have some expensive
watches and things like that in their trunk.
And I know one guy used to hit golf courses. Guys would go to the golf course.
They’d stay after and play cards, lock their clubs up in their trunk.
And this guy would go hit all the cars looking for expensive golf clubs.
He also ran a pretty lucrative stolen car ring. and and he had an uncanny talent
for lock picking on everybody can’t pick a lock have you ever tried to pick
a lock it’s hard it’s damn hard i tell you what i was at a demonstration of
that and then some real simple locks that i could pick but boy when they got
even a little bit more complicated,
just like your normal lock deadbolt lock in your house i couldn’t do it it takes
a certain touch everybody can’t do it.
Now, since he came from the Rampers, he’s got all required street cred to join
Sammy the Bull Gravano and get into the Gambino family because that’s where Gravano went.
[3:41]In the mid-60s, there’s a significant turn in Louie Milito’s life.
When he began working for the Gambino crime family, they both came up like Sammy
the Bull and Louie Milito came up up under Gambino Capo, Toto Arello.
Now, I’m not sure about the pronunciation of that, pronunciation of that, but Toto Arello.
Like Sammy the Bull, Louie Mulatto came up under a Capo, a Gambino Capo named Toto Arello.
And so they both kind of had the first mentor. This will tie these two guys
together for really the rest of their lives.
It was kind of a complex life, a dance, if you will, that Louis had between
his personal life and his criminal life.
[4:29]Because most of these guys are like that. They like their family and they do
things with their family.
So despite his criminal life, he displayed a lot of affection and humor towards
his family. And his wife, again, wrote a book.
Linda was her name. You might look that up, Linda Mulatto.
And it really showed it. I think the lawyer word, the $25 lawyer word is dichotomy,
which means he’s like kind of two different people here.
He was still, you know, he was still anything.
He stole change from phone booths. He would be part of high-end burglaries and
different kinds of jewelry thefts.
And he ends up becoming involved in high-profile murders also.
I mean, this guy was multifaceted, wouldn’t you say? This guy was, he was a piece of work.
You know, he got inducted into the Gambino family under his capo, Toto Arello.
Samuel Gravano had already become a made man. And then, so, in that crew,
in that Arello crew. crew.
And so, you know, they like, you know, Sammy the Bull is kind of his mentor
and will bring him along.
[5:35]For some reason, during the 60s, Arello resigned as capo. And I’m not,
I couldn’t get the full story on that.
And Paul Castellano promotes Sammy the Bull Gravano to be Mulatto’s new boss, that Arello crew boss.
You know, they say that his loyalty, Louie’s loyalty was a a cornerstone of his character.
He was fiercely devoted to Sammy the Bull. I mean, fiercely devoted to him.
He had to have been to do some of the things he did with him.
Like he took part in the murder of the Philadelphia mobster, Johnny Key Simone.
[6:06]This Johnny Key Simone, he was from Philly, but this was done on the order of
Paul Castellano, but it was also approved by the commission.
They approved it by the commission approved this because they’d also approved
the new Philly capo, Nicky Scarfo, to take over as boss of the Philly family
after the murder of the General Don Angelo Bruno.
Nicky Scarfo asked the commission to eliminate a potential threat from Simone.
He felt that Simone would be more loyal to Bruno and less loyal to him and maybe
even feel like he had been pushed aside. side.
So Sammy the Bull and our friend Louie the hairdresser, they kidnap,
Simone, Johnny Keyes, from a New Jersey country club called the Skyview Country Club.
They threw him bound and gagged in the back of a van, and they took a trip out
to Staten Island to a kind of out-of-the-way place where they could bury him
right away. Probably already had the whole dug, don’t you imagine?
[7:11]Samuel Gravano had planned this murder out before and then brought Louie along. long.
During this trip, Johnny Keyes, Simone, asked Gravano and Mulatto to let him die like a man.
And here’s an interesting thing. And we know this because Gravano had to admit
this was one of the murders he had to admit to.
During this trip, it was about 75 miles, Johnny Keyes had a heart attack.
Go figure, he had a heart attack.
[7:39]
Fatal Mistake on King’s Highway
[7:39]He asked if he could take a nitro tablet so
he’d stay alive long enough to be shot and he
said i want to die like a man so that’s
another thing johnny johnny that’s another thing that sammy the bull will say
that he probably respected johnny keith simone because he died like cosinostra
now on august 16th 1970 sammy the bull gervano and louis mulatto were driving
on king’s highway near west 8th street in graves inn in Brooklyn.
Got a whole story on Grey’s Inn and on, what is it, Netflix or one of them.
Sammy the Bull had a cast on his right ankle due to, do that over again.
Now, Sammy the Bull had a cast on his right ankle, was limping around,
and he got this in a scuffle kind of a thing that happened when his nightclub
was robbed by a guy named Aldo Candido.
Well, he thought he knew Aldo Candido and Gravano and Milano were, as usual, packing.
They had their pieces on them that night.
And as they’re driving down this King’s Highway around 8th Street,
if you know where that is in Brooklyn, Gravano all of a sudden yells out to
Louie, he said, pull over. That’s the guy that robbed my place.
Both the guys jumped out and ran up the guy and blasted him several times in the head and the chest.
[9:01]Dropped like a sack of potatoes. And, you know, they jumped back in the car and got out of there.
They cowboyed that one. That’s not something that a mob guy normally does is
cowboy a hit quite like that.
[9:12]And, you know, when you do something like that, that you don’t normally do,
there can be a problem. And there was a problem.
This was not Aldo Candido, the guy that robbed Sammy the Bull.
This was 16-year-old Alan Kaiser, who just happened to be walking down the street,
minding his own business.
Now, some people say Alan looked like him.
Yeah, I’ve seen the pictures. He looked older. He had like a mustache and he
did look a little older than 16, but irregardless, he was 16-year-old kid.
And Sammy acted acted rashly, really rashly.
Normally he was a considerate business kind of a guy, considered probably is not the right word.
He was a cool character, shall we say, and he planned things out.
He didn’t take risks. That was a huge risk.
I mean, what if a police car driven
[10:03]
Continuing Criminal Activities
[10:01]around the corner about the time they jumped out and ran up to this?
1978, Louie Milito will murder again. in.
This time he did it for the Gambino underbrush, Frank DiCicco.
The victim was a mob associate named Nicholas, and this just happened to be
the brother of Gravano’s wife.
Now we know why Sammy the Bull didn’t take a direct part in this hit.
DiCicco had to bypass Gravano and give the order directly to Louie and to a
guy named Joe Stimey D’Angelo.
[10:32]Mulatto kind of said, you know, I don’t know. We should do this.
And DiCicco finally decided, and after he consulted with Paul Castellano,
that they should tell Sammy the Bull what they were up to.
And Milato was not comfortable until Sammy the Bull knew what they were doing.
And they say Castellano made this concession with one stipulation.
It’s always a hook, huh? If Gravano vehemently opposes Shibata’s killing his
brother-in-law’s killing gavanos and they’re going to kill gavano gavano i mean
this guy you know he’s got that native intelligence that he can read a room
this dude knows what type it is,
He did not dispute the murder of his brother-in-law. As the 1980s unfold and
[11:22]
Shifting Loyalties in the Family
[11:17]narcotics, cocaine takes over, and there’s just a ton of money being made there.
Loyalties are changing in the Gambino family, a lot of tension in there.
[11:27]Partly because of this Castellanos disapproval of Sammy the Bull and Louis’
grievances with him over some business deals that went awry.
And I know Castellanos also was bitching about Gravano because he was making
so much money and he thought he was keeping everything for himself.
And I think John Gotti kind of thought that, too.
Sammy the Bull can make a lot of money and Louie Malato was a lot right there
with him and they didn’t think he was sharing enough.
So 1984, Louie Malato, Louie the hairdresser,
his criminal journey, his journey in this life took a darker turn as if it didn’t
have enough dark turns already, took a darker turn and he pled guilty to tax
evasion, and he got a two-year prison sentence.
You know, it’s like a guy told me once, hey, man, I can do a trade standing on my head.
He probably told them to ask him to talk. I can see it now. Ask him to talk,
and he said, hey, man, I can do a do stand on my head, which is true.
But during his incarceration, the landscape of the Gambino crime family went
through a seismic shift in 1984.
If you remember, John Gotti, backed up by Sammy the Bull and others,
killed Paul Castellano so Gotti could take over the Gambino family.
So upon his release, Louis found himself in a Gambino family that had done,
you know, all kinds of changes and overhaul.
And Sammy moves on up. He’s an underboss.
[12:56]And Milito, he openly expressed dissent about this.
And it’s like, you know, hey, what’s going on? You know, you killed the boss.
There was a lot of people in the New York mob that didn’t agree with Gotti’s murder of Castellano.
[13:12]
Dissent Spells Trouble
[13:12]Boy, once you express your dissent like that within the family,
you pretty much are going to seal your fate, especially with this bunch of guys.
1979, 80, Louie’s wife, Linda, that began selling real estate.
And in her book later on, she’ll say, I never liked or trusted Sammy the Bull.
She just had this instinct about it. And even though Louie and Sammy were thick
as thieves, they were ball partners, buddies, they did crimes together. other.
And she actually, at Louie’s request, helped Sammy upgrade his living circumstances
and found him a nice home for a decent price and in exclusive areas.
Everybody wants to move on up, moving on up to the east side,
you know, move on out to the suburbs or whatever, move to a more expensive neighborhood,
want to be more like Paul Castellano.
I don’t Linda Louie’s wife didn’t really want to deal with Sammy the bull,
but Louie kept working on her and she finally relented.
And he, she says, I’m going to do it, but I’m not doing Sammy any favors.
I want my full commission.
Louie said, go ahead, do what you got to do. People got to pay for your services.
I don’t, nobody expects you to do this for nothing.
[14:25]
Real Estate Dealings and Discontent
[14:25]Linda found Sammy the bull a house for $375,000.
[14:30]Paid cash for it, but he actually had the cash for it, but he didn’t want to
put it all out, so he did a half mortgage.
Sammy the Bull bought that house, but then he tore it down and then built a mansion.
Almost as big as Castellano’s. People called it Sammy’s Shrine to Sammy.
His final weeks, by 1988, Louie Milito, he was kind of burdened by regret over his life.
And he had some poignant discussions with his wife, Linda, and she writes about
this in her book. Had a heartfelt conversation.
They decided they needed to go ahead and get a divorce, and he acknowledged
that the actions, his actions over his life had taken a toll on both her and
their son, Edwin’s son, Louis.
Valentine’s Day, 1988, Louis made a final visit to his wife, Linda,
left her a heart-shaped balloon and acknowledgement a written acknowledgement
of the cold realities of the world i think maybe he knew he was in trouble or
something because you know i mean that’s like kind of like leaving your jewelry
your billfold with your wife when you go to a meeting.
[15:42]
Mysterious Disappearance of Louis Milito
[15:43]But shortly after that day he met with sammy the bull gravano and nobody seems
to know exactly what happened, and his body was never recovered.
Now, I don’t think Sammy admitted to this one that he did this.
I think he felt like he didn’t have to. He must have really felt he was cool on this.
So, you know, that’s the end of Louis, the hairdresser, Milito.
And in the end, it was, he left behind a really complicated,
you know, string of relatives and friends, and he went out with a lot of pain
and regret i think that’s maybe probably expressed that to sammy the bull.
[16:21]And he was not happy the way things
had turned out with killing Paul Castellano and Sammy’s moved on up.
And more than likely, you know, this is, you know, he’d always lived his life
on this edge and loyalty and betrayal coexist with each other in that life.
There’s no doubt about it. There’s loyalty on one hand, but there’s a lot of
betrayal on the other hand.
So if you want to live in the shadows and organize crime life,
why you got to be ready for you got to be up for that kind of stuff.
Up not everybody’s up for it so thanks a lot guys i think louis malito had a
really interesting story and i wanted to bring that to you as kind of a minor
guy that i’ve never heard of before if you’re really into it you probably have
but but i had not heard of him and i just thought he was interesting especially
this relationship with his wife because i you know i like that,
kind of that dichotomy of these mobsters you know they’ve got his wife and family
that they care about and and spend a lot of time with but then on the other
hand they go over in the city or back out in the neighborhood and social club or whatever,
and, you know, kill people, you know, the cheap people that rob people and,
you know, end up spending years and years in penitentiary away from their loved ones. So go figure.
[17:33]Don’t forget, I like to ride motorcycles. So watch out for motorcycles when
you’re out there on the streets.
And if you have a problem with PTSD and you’ve been in the service,
be sure and go to the VA website.
And if you have a problem with drugs and alcohol, whether you’re in the service
or not, you can go see former Gambino soldier, There’s another Gambino guy,
Anthony Ruggiano is a drug and alcohol counselor down in Florida,
and he’s got a hotline on his website.
So thanks a lot, guys. Don’t forget to like and subscribe.
[18:00]As a friend of mine says, like and subscribe down below or give me a review.
You know, I’ve got some movies out there you can rent for only,
I think, a buck ninety nine or something. Tell you about a lot more about the
Kansas City crime family.
Always doing stories a couple of times a week sometimes.
[18:16]And just let me know. So, you know, make comments on the Facebook page.
You got a big, huge, big Facebook group, 60,000 people now. It’s crazy.
Probably be more by the time you get to it. A lot of good discussions,
a lot of good photos on there and pictures.
And from mob families all over the United States. So it’s actually very little Kansas City stuff.
I put some stuff up there once in a while that another guy I know does.
But it’s from, you know, I had a guy join recently as a real expert on Springfield,
Massachusetts crime family. and they connect back to the Genovese family.
Got a couple of podcasts out there that are going to tell that story.
Of course, a lot of guys from New
York and New Jersey and Las Vegas and Milwaukee, you know, you name it.
From all over the United States. So thanks a lot, guys.
...more
20min
May 08, 2024 Johnny Roselli: Hollywood Gangster
Retired Intelligence Detective Gary Jenkins brings you the best in mob history with his unique perception of the mafia. In this episode of Mafia Biographies, delve into the captivating life of John “Handsome Johnny” Roselli. Born Filippo Sacco in 1905, Roselli’s journey traversed organized crime during Prohibition, connections with mob figures like Al Capone, and ventures into liquor imports and labor racketeering.
Transitioning to Las Vegas, Roselli emerged as a key player in the casino scene and infiltrated Hollywood craft unions and production companies, showcasing his versatility. The narrative takes a surprising turn in the 1960s with involvement in a CIA plot to assassinate Fidel Castro, entwining mobsters and political intrigue.
Roselli’s appearance before a Senate committee in the 1970s shed light on his connections to espionage and criminal activities. His mysterious demise in 1976 near Miami further added layers of speculation to his intricate life, leaving a legacy that echoes the complexities of crime, business, and political power in American history. Join us for more underworld biographies as we unravel captivating stories of mobsters.
Support the Podcast
Subscribe to get new gangster stories every week.
Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire
Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee”
To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here
To rent Brothers against Brothers, the documentary, click here.
To rent Gangland Wire, the documentary, click here
To buy my Kindle book, Leaving Vegas: The True Story of How FBI Wiretaps Ended Mob Domination of Las Vegas Casinos.
To subscribe on iTunes click here. Please give me a review and help others find the podcast.
Donate to the podcast. Click here!
Transcript
[0:00]
Welcome to Gangland Wire
[0:00]Well, hey, welcome all you wiretappers back here in the studio of Gangland Wire.
We’ve got another riveting episode of Mafia Biographies. You know,
I’m bringing you these little short Mafia biographies.
It’s your host, former intelligence unit detective, Kansas City Police Department, Gary Jenkins.
And today we’re going to delve into the intricate life of John Handsome Johnny Roselli.
He was a mobster who his life story weaves through the gritty streets of Chicago,
started in New York, of course, goes out to L.A., Las Vegas.
This is the gripping story of a man who was able to navigate both the criminal
underworld and the covert world of espionage.
But he also was able to navigate through the boardrooms and the film studios
of the Hollywood major motion picture producers.
It’s crazy. And we’re going to uncover the different layers of handsome Johnny
Roselli. He was born Filippo Sacco, July 4th, 4th of July, 1905.
I didn’t know he was that old. He’s born in Esperia, Italy.
[1:04]Roselli’s early life was marked by an immigration to Boston at the age of six.
He was raised in a world that was shaped by criminal undertones of the Prohibition era of America.
Roselli’s destiny seemed sealed. His father, Vincenzo Sacco,
had paved his way into the underworld before him.
1922, at the age of 17, Johnny Roselli faced a narcotics charge in Massachusetts.
This caused him to move to New York. Then he moved to Chicago for a while.
[1:38]And it was during this time that young Filippo Sacco metamorphosed into Johnny Roselli.
That was a name that’s going to resonate through the echelons of organized crime
throughout the rest of the 20th century.
Johnny Roselli got to Los Angeles in 1924.
His story takes an unexpected turn. He gets arrested and he pleads guilty to bootlegging.
He’d become entangled with the notorious Cornero brothers out in L.A.
And he really had ascended to a prominent role in getting liquor imports from
outside the country into Southern California.
Now, while he’s out there in LA, he forges a close relationship with the underboss,
later become the boss, Jack Dragna.
This will prove really instrumental to a lot of his career.
Johnny Roselli had a connection to Al Capone going back to Chicago.
In 1928, Capone invited Roselli back to Chicago and wanted to bring him into the organization.
[2:36]This was kind of a strategic move by Capone because he wanted to strengthen
his ties between himself and the Los Angeles mobs.
And Roselli would be the liaison with Jack Dragna. They’re his friend.
The Los Angeles assignment, of course, paves the way for the Chicago outfit
to eventually infiltrate major motion picture studios unions.
In 1942, Roselli will be indicted on a federal labor racketeering charge,
along with George Brown, former president
of the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees Union,
and Willie Bioff, a Chicago racketeer, labor racketeer, and former pimp.
Bioff will eventually resign.
[3:17]Turn witness and testify against these guys
and be killed for his trouble later on
in a phoenix and a car bomb 1942 with
these charges pending johnny roselli enlist in
the united states army in a world war ii is going on and he was actually able
to serve three years then they give him an undesirable discharge because he’s
got this case pending he’s getting ready to go to the penitentiary because while
in the service roselli and several other chicago outfit members like like Frank Nitti and Paul Rica,
were convicted of the extortion scheme where they extracted money from various Hollywood studios.
In 1943, he began a 10-year prison sentence, but through some manipulations
by the outfit, all these guys that were involved with this Hollywood extortion get out in 1947.
[4:06]By the mid-1950s, he’s shifted his focus away from Hollywood.
This is a member of Mayor Lansky’s notice about Las Vegas and Las Vegas is starting
to grow in the post-war era.
That’s when Las Vegas just takes off and grows like crazy because they have the gambling.
It’s a gambling, becoming a gambling mecca.
1956, he has become the Chicago outfit and the Los Angeles mob’s chief representative in Las Vegas.
And his job was mainly to ensure that the Chicago mob Lobb bosses got their
share of the casino revenues through the skimming.
However, the Los Angeles offices, the FBI noted that he was also employed as
a movie producer at Monogram Studios, and he actually did produce some movies.
In an unexpected twist, Roselli found himself totally immersed in the Hollywood movie business.
Close friendships with film producer Brian Foy and Columbia Pictures co-founder
Harry Harry Cohen opened up doors for Roselli.
He got credits as a producer in early gangster movies.
He maneuvered effortlessly between the glitzy studios and the shadowy realms
of organized crime and the outfit.
And he was invaluable to the outfit. Having that kind of a guy in those positions
in Los Angeles and Las Vegas, he was dating stars.
[5:30]
Hollywood Connections
[5:27]I think he married a movie star, a minor movie star.
But on the surface, he looked clean as a houndstooth. dude, 1960s,
a new chapter unfolded for our friend, Johnny Roselli. This guy, I mean, he.
[5:40]He is a piece of work. He gets involved with the CIA.
The CIA had recruited a man named Robert Mayhew, who is a former FBI agent and
the kind of the fixer and main bodyguard for Howard Hughes.
And he’s moved into Las Vegas by this time.
So they go to Mayhew and say, you know, we want some mobsters.
We want to kill Fidel Castro.
Well, you know, Mayhew knows Johnny Roselli because he’s this,
you know, figure in Los Angeles. and in Las Vegas.
Robert Mayhew brings Roselli in, gets him in to do some CIA agents.
And then Roselli brings in Sam Giancana and Santoro Traficante Jr.
And they supposedly took money from the CIA and supposedly had some failed attempts
to poison Castro, which eventually they just move on.
Now, some people say, typical mob deal, take the money and then say,
yeah, we’re going to try and not do anything.
[6:42]
Involvement with CIA
[6:37]The Bay of Pigs comes along and the CIA just, they like wash their hands of this whole deal.
This won’t come back to haunt them for a while, but eventually I think it was
the church committee brings all this back in, which, you know,
that’s going to, that’s going to be bad on Johnny Roselli.
[6:53]1970s, it’s a darker narrative for our friend, handsome Johnny Roselli.
He ends up testifying for this U.S. Senate select committee on intelligence
about this CIA plan to kill Castro.
I don’t know if if you remember, but this was a big deal back in the 70s and
looking at all the CIA abuses over the years and things that they’d done that
were way outside their mandate in many ways.
The shadows deepened when his connections to another notorious event emerged,
the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.
There was lots of conspiracy theories about that, that hint at Johnny Roselli
and the Chicago outfit’s involvement, particularly when Jack Ruby,
a former Chicago outfit associate who has ended up in Dallas,
kills the man who killed Kennedy.
Or maybe they recruited some people to go help kill Kennedy.
Maybe Richard Cain really did do it. I don’t know.
Just added a layer of complexity to this already intricate tale of handsome Johnny Roselli.
Well, he won’t make it out of the 70s. His life took a tragic turn.
On August the 7th, 1976, his decomposing body was discovered in a 55-gallon
drum out in the bay by Miami, Florida, close to Miami, Florida.
There’s been a lot of theories surrounding his death, internal mob dispute.
[8:09]They didn’t like that he was involved with the CIA thing, that he did testify
in front of this committee, didn’t trust him anymore.
Did the CIA killed him because he knew too much? They know too much about the
Kennedy assassination.
You know, we’ll never know. There’ll always be a lot of conspiracy theories
[8:29]
Legacy and Conspiracy Theories
[8:27]and a lot of discussion about what happened to Johnny Roselli.
And so I’m sure you guys have all taken part in those discussions. I know many have.
I have, and I’ve seen them on the Facebook page, the Gangland Wire podcast group.
His Facebook page, you’ll see discussions about this on that.
So the legacy of handsome Johnny Roselli lives on. He had a complex life.
It was a tapestry woven through the alleys of Chicago, the glamour of Hollywood,
the high stakes tables of Las Vegas.
And his story is a testament to the interconnectedness of crime and business,
kindness, labor unions.
[9:03]Governmental power, and they’re all intertwined in there, especially during the 50s, 60s, and 70s.
Join us next time when we do another Underworld Bio, and we’ll unearth another
captivating story and a biography of one of the other many mobsters we’ve had in this country.
So thanks, guys. And don’t forget, I like to ride motorcycles.
So watch out for motorcycles when you’re out there.
And if you’ve got a problem with PTSD and you’ve been in the service, go to the website.
The VA has a website with a hotline number and drugs and alcohol always go hand in hand with PTSD.
And even if you haven’t been in the service, I think the VA has a lot of help
along those lines of treatment centers and things like that.
But if you’re not, our friend, Anthony Ruggiano, former Gambino member is a
drug and alcohol counselor down in Florida.
He has a hotline on his website, anthonyrugiano.com, I think,
and he’s on YouTube, too. Don’t forget, like and subscribe.
Give me a review. Tell your friends. Share on your social media.
[10:10]Join our Facebook page or Facebook group. Actually, I have a page,
too, but it’s not very popular.
We don’t put very much on it. The group is where a lot of things are shared
and a lot of discussions happen in the replies and down below the pictures if
you’re familiar with Facebook at all.
I know a lot of y’all aren’t, but a lot of people are.
It’s a good place to make connections with other mob fans, maybe from your area of the country.
I see a lot of connections being made and people getting to know each other
because they have that in common. They’re all a bunch of people from Cleveland.
Got a bunch from Philly on there, of course, as well as New York and Chicago
and Kansas City. So thanks a lot, guys.
...more
13min
May 06, 2024 The Bonanno Family: Betrayal and Ambition
Retired Intelligence Detective Gary Jenkins brings you the best in mob history with his unique perception of the mafia. In this podcast episode, we delve into the intriguing life story of Joe Bonanno, a prominent figure in organized crime. Joe Bonanno’s life was intertwined with the Mafia’s tumultuous history from his early days migrating to the United States from Sicily. We witness his rise through the ranks of the New York City Mafia families, navigating through turbulent times marked by power struggles and alliances. Bonanno’s escapades take us through significant events such as the Castellammarese War and the infamous Appalachian Conference. His ambitious nature leads him to orchestrate intricate plots, including a scheme to eliminate rival mob bosses, ultimately resulting in a betrayal that shatters loyalties within the Mafia commission. As the podcast delves deeper, we witness Joe Bonanno’s retreat to Arizona, where retirement beckons after a series of family wars and power struggles. His legacy, marked by contradictions of honor and treachery, is explored in detail, shedding light on his involvement in the heroin trade and his untimely demise in 2002. Throughout the narrative, the complexities of Bonanno’s character and his role in shaping the New York City Mafia landscape are articulated with admiration and criticism. The episode concludes with reflections on the lasting impact of Joe Bopnanno’s actions, painting a picture of a man whose life danced on the edge between honor and treachery, leaving behind a legacy etched in the annals of crime history.
Support the Podcast
Subscribe to get new gangster stories every week.
Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire
Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee”
To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here
To rent Brothers against Brothers, the documentary, click here.
To rent Gangland Wire, the documentary, click here
To buy my Kindle book, Leaving Vegas: The True Story of How FBI Wiretaps Ended Mob Domination of Las Vegas Casinos.
To subscribe on iTunes click here. Please give me a review and help others find the podcast.
Donate to the podcast. Click here!
Transcript
[0:00]
Introduction to Mob Figure Biographies
[0:00]Well, hey, guys, back here in the studio, Gangland Wire. This is retired intelligence detective Gary Jenkins. I got another one of my short bios or biographies of famous mob people. I think I mentioned this before I’ve been doing these because, you know, we mention these names all the time, but everybody doesn’t know everything.
[0:20]And so I’ll get these out. I’ve been putting them out on my Facebook or my podcast Facebook page, just a short short bio of these really famous mob guys. And so this is another one of them. This is Joseph Charles Bonanno. Joe Bonanno is a really interesting guy. And matter of fact, his family, the Bonanno family, Bonanno family, I think it’s Bonanno. Bonanno family is still known as the Bonanno family today. Nobody’s ever taken it over. Rusty Restelli had it for a while. He died and And Joe Messino had it, and he went into witness protection and justified against everybody as the boss of the Bonanno family. So go figure. Now, so in the vast realm of organized crime, which especially in New York, it is vast because it extends all up to New York. I mean, Buffalo and into Montreal and way outside of New York City down into New Jersey is huge. And these guys all connected to each other and did a lot of business with each other. And Joe Bonanno was right in the middle of all that. There’s a man whose life was forged in that fiery crucible we know as Sicily, where a lot of these guys came from.
[1:34]And he was born Giuseppe Carlo Bonanno on a cold winter’s day, January 18th, 1905. And he was in the village of Castellammare del Golfo, Sicily, which that’s, I don’t know how many mob guys came from Castellammare del Golfo. And it’s like, it’s right on the ocean. I had to put a picture of it up once. It’s like a big bay. And then there was a little whitewashed with red tile roof apartments or homes go up the hillside. And it’s a fishing village, kind of like our friend Giuseppe Amato came from. He came from Serrini. A lot of Mafia history from Castellammare del Golfo. His destiny will be intertwined with his treacherous path through the ranks of the New York City Mafia families. At an early age, there were whispers about his future known to a lot of different people. And they knew him as Joe Bananas. And he’ll go on to become a symbol of authority and ruthlessness. At the tender age of three, fate guided him to the shores of the New World. So he and his family came across the ocean, sought refuge in the Lower East Side, the bustling streets of New York City, the Little Italy area. 20 years later, so 10 or 15, 20 years later, he will go back to Italy, to Sicily for a while, but he doesn’t stay long and destiny had other plans.
[2:59]In 1920, there was a fateful decision that altered the course of his life. He comes back to the United States, clandestine slips back in. You know, a lot of these guys back in those days, there wasn’t all kinds of hoops to jump through. He just came here and started working. And he did come through Cuba, which a lot of guys did. A lot of them went from Sicily to Cuba. And then there was a lot of illegal traffic going between the island of Cuba and the United United States and will be for a long time after that. He’s in the belly of a Cuban fishing boat. He arrives in Tampa, Florida. It’s a land of opportunity, but it’s also the land of danger. During this time, 1924, the winds of change are shifting in New York City. He comes back to New York. The Castellan-Mrize War is raging, raging. I mean, people are getting killed all over the place. The old mustache Pete’s are getting knocked off. And first they fight between themselves. Joe Morello and Salvatore Maranzano are fighting between themselves.
[4:02]Alliances are shifting all the time. Depends on who’s in power, who goes down. Maranzano falls victim to his own insatiable hunger for power. He wants to be the Capo di Tutti di Cappi and the boss of all bosses. And it’s during this time that Joe Bonanno sees the moment and he He started making his moves. He aligned himself with Salvatore Maranzano against this rival group, Joe Masseria and Giuseppe Morello. I mentioned Morello before, but Masseria was maybe, he was a little more important in this war. He’s part of a secret group of young mafioso from both sides known as the Young Turks, which Lucky Luciano and Vito Genovese and Tommy Lucchese and all these more modern guys, you know about in more modern times and Joe Bonanno were part of these young Turks. They were dissatisfied with the old world mentality of just going around and doing black hand letters on other Italian immigrants and that kind of thing. The prohibition has shown them that you need to organize, you need to modernize, you need to make a lot of money, and there’s a lot of money to be made. Secret Agreement with Maranzano, Luciano orchestrates the assassination of Joe the Boss Masaria in 1931.
[5:20]Lucky Luciano becomes Maranzano’s second-in-command off Tolstoy. He becomes disillusioned with Maranzano’s greed and his rigid kind of leadership. And Luciano will arrange for the murder of Maranzano in September 1931. And Luciano then is the boss of bosses in a way, but he knows better than to just say, hey, you know, I’m the boss of bosses. That’s when he starts organizing. As a fallout for Maranzano’s death, he becomes the boss of the old Maranzano family.
[5:50]At the age of 26, he becomes the youngest ever boss of a crime family. He must have really had it business-wise and organizational-wise, and he must have been a natural leader among men. I don’t really know if he had much to do with Maranzano’s death. Giovinano will claim that he was unaware of Luciano’s plans to kill Maranzano,
[6:15]
Family Life and Leadership Transition
[6:12]but it doesn’t really matter what it was. Two months after Maranzano’s assassination, Joe Bonanno marries Faye Labruzzo, had three kids together over the next 20 years or so, Salvatore Bill Bonanno, who will become the consigliere of the Bonanno family, brings his son in. There’s Catherine and Joseph Charles Jr. In the shadows of the mafia’s power, the penumbra, as we say, the shadow of that.
[6:39]His name echoes with whispers of intrigue and treachery. He was a treacherous dude.
[6:48]
Secret Meeting in Palermo
[6:44]Wait till I tell you about some of these next stories coming up. The year was 1957, and rumors are spreading like wildfire about a clandestine gathering at the opulent Grand Hotel in De Palma, Palermo. It was said that Joe Bonanno, who’s a key player in the New York City mob world, was among those who attended and he helped secretly shape the destiny of the Cosa Nostra over the next 20, 30 years. Among other actions, these mafia bosses combined with Sicilian bosses established a regular heroin trade route from Turkey to Sicily and to Cuba and from Cuba up through the United States. Carmine Galante, I believe, was there. And he’ll go on and remain a member of the Bonanno family and even try to take it over for a short period of time. That’s a whole other story. I need to do a whole story on Carmine Galante. He is a story in himself. Just a month later, after this meeting…
[7:43]
Appalachian Conference Chaos
[7:44]November, that was, it must’ve been in September, October, November of 1957, the most famous meeting of all at the Appalachian conference, this New York state trooper named Edgar Creswell noticed all these black limos parking at this estate out in the country in the Appalachian area is really, you know, almost a Canada. And he got some other troopers and they started trying to find out who was there. And as these guys saw these troopers walking up and taking license plate number, they scattered like a cubby of quail running through the woods and jumping in their cars, trying to take out, get away from the cops, trying to not get caught there because they knew all of my bosses from the entire United States were here at one place in one time. And they knew the secrecy was going to be gone. Once law enforcement figures this out, they really do meet together. And there really are in their individual areas and cities, bosses, big time mafiosos or big time criminals, you know, the kind of the jig is up. Joe Bonanno was there. But in this desperate scramble for these to get out, these guys with these alligator shoes and fedora hats and suits running out through the upstate New York woods or getting in cars claiming that they were just out visiting a sick friend. Men are trying to get away, Joe Bonanno gets away.
[9:07]And he claimed later on that he wasn’t ever there. That was a pretty bold lie. One of his underlings, a guy named Gaspar DiGregorio, who was a capo, was caught. And in his hands, his trembling hands, as the cop said, what are you holding there? I’ve been there, you know, what do you got in your hand there? Let me see that. He tried to snatch it away. way, it was Joe Bonanno’s driver’s license. You know, he was there. The official police report kind of showed a different picture of Bonanno’s fabricated tale that he was never there. They claimed that he was caught up there, and in a desperate act of fleeing on foot, he was one of those guys running through the woods in their alligator shoes.
[9:48]Consequences, of course, were some fines, and I gave him some prison sentences, but they got overturned pretty quick on appeal. It really didn’t have, you know, what are you going to charge him with? The stunning turn of events, of course, these convictions were overturned in 1960, and Lady Lady Luck bestows her favor once again on Joe Bonanno, and he still has never actually gone to prison, never had a conviction by this point in time. But fate, of course, is not messing around with the intricate tapestry of his life. As the years unfold, there’s whispers about an audacious plot circulating among certain circles in the mob. 1963, Joe Bonanno’s ambitions take a sinister turn. I mean, a really sinister turn.
[10:34]He allegedly, I like that word allegedly, they use that in the newspapers all the time. He allegedly conspired to eliminate some of his rivals on the Mafia convention.
[10:46]
Betrayal and Exposed Conspiracy
[10:45]He’s on the commission by this time. Some of his rivals are Tommy Three Fingers Brown Lucchese, Carlo Gambino, who we’ve talked about before, from upstate New York, Stefano Magadino, and Frank DeSimone was another boss of one of the five families for a period of time. He sought support of a man in the Profaci crime family named Joseph Magliocco. Magliocco was nursing a snub. He was nursing a grievance for quite some time over some kind of a snub. And so he readily agreed to Giobannano’s scheme. And this was a pretty perilous scheme. This was a pretty perilous scheme that they had going. It was a heck of a conspiracy. embarrassing. Stage set hit men were unleashed like savage wolves on an unsuspecting prey, but within their ranks, they had a man named Joe Columbo, who was a calculating opportunist.
[11:43]And he saw an opportunity for himself. You know, in these mob plots like this, you may start moving one way, but you got somebody inside there that’ll then go rat you out and they’ll get what they want. In a stunning, I say stunning, act of betrayal, Joe Colombo reveals this plot
[12:06]
Commission Summons and Collapse
[11:59]to its intended targets and exposes this dark underbelly of the New York City mob families. These echoes of treachery will reach the ears of all the other bosses and and her suspicions everybody’s looking at joe bonanno his close ties to mcleoco were hard to deny it was clear to them the other bosses that joe bonanno was a puppeteer pulling the strings and the mastermind behind a bloody plot to kill these other bosses commission summons joe bonanno in and his facade crumbles pretty quick. He realized there’s a noose tightening around his neck. He makes a daring escape, shall we say. He flees to Montreal. Of course, if you remember that meeting over in Sicily with Carmine Galante, they set up these lines of dope coming out of Turkey. And some of it was going to Cuba, but then it kind of started going to Montreal. That kind of did start going to Montreal.
[12:59]And they had, Carmine Galante had gone to Montreal and really lined up what will become the Vito Rizzuto family. And they always maintain, they’re almost like another crew under the Bonanno family. So he runs to Montreal. He’s got people there to protect him. He’s a broken man. He’s getting older. He leaves behind a subordinate, Magliocco, who’s confronted with the evidence that the other bosses have gathered, and he confesses his role in this twisted plot. The commission is unforgiving, but their power is absolute. They spared Magliocco’s life, put him on the shelf, as they say, stripped him of his position. They made him pay a hefty fine. Isn’t that something? He’s got to pay a fine. Like, what the hell? It’s like city court, $500 for speeding ticket. And anyhow, he had to pay a hefty fine. I don’t know what it was.
[13:54]There’s a reward awaiting the cunning Joe Colombo. He now will be given control of the Profaci family as his spoils for his betrayal. Joe Bonanno’s troubles are far from over. No, he’s forced to navigate through this labyrinth of deceit that he has concocted. He’s lost his family in some ways. He’s up in Montreal. He’s still pulling strings down. He’s got false declarations on his immigration documents. And in the end, he’s going to be deported back to the United States. He did serve 90 days. That’s a little bit of time he’s ever served. He did serve 90 days in Canada for using false documents. But then he’s deported back. October 1964, he’s facing a grand jury summons down in America, in New York. Some other criminal charges. charges, and he’s walking down the streets in Manhattan.
[14:56]
Mysterious Abduction
[14:52]This will forever be discussed and argued about. Several men snatch him off the street, which looks like a kidnapping.
[15:01]Whispers of this abduction spread throughout the mob families like wildfire. And everybody is pointing fingers. And one of the most popular person that fingers are pointing at is the upstate New York Stefano Magadino boss over again. And one of the most popular targets of these fingers are Stefano Magadino from upstate New York and men that work for him. The recordings of FBI wiretaps during this time, there’s a lot of speculation that he’s just hiding out. He just faked his kidnapping. And his soldiers feel abandoned. They feel betrayed. They believe he’s just hiding out. They don’t really believe that he was kidnapped and killed. They know he’s out there. And I think probably by the way his son, Bill Bonanno, acted, that they didn’t really believe he was dead. He probably set this up himself. Well, there’s a storm brewing in Manhattan now of Joe Bonanno. These unbreakable bonds of loyalty were shattered and a lot of anger and resentment in the Bonanno family.
[16:05]And they’re like, come on, this son of a bitch took off and left us here alone. You know, what are we supposed to do? I guess these mob families need a boss. I don’t know. They don’t really. They have structure down in them. But I guess the capos, they wanted a boss. Gasper DiGregorio seizes the opportunity. Opportunity i mentioned him before he was up there at appalachian he claims power and he gets it takes advantage of the discontent within the family and the mafia commission will now appoint de gregorio as the boss of the banana family so this will set the stage for a tumultuous four years the next four years they’ll be the infamous banana war brother against brother loyalty shattered like fragile glass, families torn asunder, divided into factions loyal to Bill Bonanno and those pledging allegiance to DeGregorio.
[17:04]
Attempt at Reconciliation
[17:01]There’s a lot of people killed. Everybody’s going to the mattresses during this time. Early 1966, DeGregorio extends an olive branch. He proposes a meeting with Joe’s son, Bill.
[17:16]Bill, I don’t know if you’ve ever seen, There’s a movie called Honor Thy Father, I believe, based on this book by a guy named Gay Talese. He is depicted as a guy that’s not really a hardcore mobster, and he wants peace.
[17:32]He agrees. He goes to an uncle’s house in Brooklyn, and the people loyal to Bonanno say, approach the house and they hear gunfire. But something happened in the house. We don’t know what, but they run off. I mean, Joe Bonanno reemerges May 1966, New York City, and the wounds have run deep and the scars of the Bonanno War were not going to go away.
[18:05]
Continuing Violent Turmoil
[18:01]Tries to come in, tries to make peace. But 1968, another wave of violence strikes the Bonanno family. De Gregorio, who was the usurper of power, went down in a hail of machine gun fires. His body was riddled with bullets. I haven’t had that since the 30s in Chicago, I don’t think. Doesn’t kill him. He has a heart attack. He’s like done. His health is gone. The commission is tired of all this, and they cast him aside, and they shift to a new guy and back a guy named Paul Siaka. They hope that Paul Siaka can bring things together. Joe Bonanno agrees to step down from being the boss.
[18:49]As family warfare, I mean, rivers of blood, and people anger with each other, and they’d split old people. People had been friends and done stuff together, split apart, taken sides. they got to end it.
[19:07]
Retirement and Succession
[19:02]Retirement beckons, and he moves to the dry desert winds of Arizona. Son Bill resigns as the consigliere. He leaves behind New York, the cold, dirty, dreary streets of New York, and goes out to the beautiful desert in Arizona. Hossiaka will not hold this position as head of the Bonanno family very long. Another guy, Natal Joe Diamond’s Evola, who was a banana loyalist from the old days, will then be the next boss in 1971.
[19:36]And he dies in 1973 from natural causes. And that’s when modern times, Philip Rusty Rustelli will be promoted to boss of the Bonanno family and establish some long-term continuity.
[19:49]This happened in February 23rd, 1974. I’m not sure how anybody knows this, but there’s a meeting at the Americana Hotel in Manhattan. And the commission named Rustelli as the boss of the Bonanno family. Joe Bonanno’s living out here in Arizona, embracing retirement, supposedly. I know he did a few little things out here, but not really very much. He decides to write a book, Horror of Horrors. He writes a book about his life in the mafia. Nobody had ever done that before, or they had. Lucky Luciano did, but it was more fiction than fact, I think. Joe Falaci had cooperated to write a book, but here’s a book by a mafia boss
[20:33]
Controversial Autobiography
[20:31]right out of the words of his mouth. It’s called A Man of Honor, the Autobiography of Joseph Bonanno. He pierced the veil of secrecy, and he revealed all the different mob secrets at the time, and he talked about the commission. Most importantly, he talked about the commission. Now, the New York United States attorney in, I think, the Southern District or the Western District, I can’t remember, one of those, Rudy Giuliani, who we all know, He read A Man of Honor, and he used that as part of his famous commission case, because in that book, Joe Bonanno talks about the Mafia Commission.
[21:09]
Legacy and Final Days
[21:06]You’re not supposed to say that stuff out loud, let alone write it in a book. Joe Bonanno didn’t live to really find out about how his book was used. May 11th, 2002.
[21:17]Final chapter of Joseph Bonanno’s life came to a close. Out in Tucson, Arizona, he died. Died a natural death, left behind a legacy, a legacy etched in the annals of crime history. He was a man of contradictions, and he was a man that believed in this mafia honor, but he also, he was really ambitious. He was treacherous, and he was ambitious. malicious and it’s not like the the narcotics they kind of agreed there in 57 you know we need to stay out of this dirty narcotics business and and he never did get out of it he or just before the apalachian convention he had already set up what became known as you know the the pipeline the heroin pipeline from turkey to sicily to maybe france to sardinia maybe somewhere down there in the Mediterranean, get it processed in the labs there, and then get it to New York, either through Cuba or Montreal or later on right direct to New York City. He just will always be identified with heroin in New York City. He can’t shake that, and that dirties up the rest of the guys.
[22:33]But he had an indomitable spirit, and he danced on that rager’s edge between honor and treachery his whole life and died of natural causes down in Arizona, in retirement in Arizona. So go figure. So that’s the story of Joe Bonanno. It’s a pretty interesting story, I think. There is a movie out there, and I’ve watched it. The production values are a little low. But not bad. And I think it’s titled Honor Thy Father. He was an interesting dude. He was, you know, he set up the heroin pipeline that’ll last to modern times, ends up in the pizza connection.
[23:08]All the Sicilians coming over, you know, that was all under the Bonanno family, Carmine Galante. Bonanno family is the one that was so embarrassed by lefty Ruggiero bringing in and Sonny Black Napolitano bringing in Joe Pistone, the undercover FBI agent. Embarrassed them so bad that they really kicked them out of the commission there late in life. But that was about the end of the mob in New York City, the way that was once known anyhow. So Joe Bonanno, he was quite a guy, quite a character. Thanks a lot, guys. Don’t forget, I like to ride motorcycles. So if you’re out there on the streets driving around, watch your motorcycles. If you have a problem with PTSD and you’ve been in the service, be sure and go to the VA website and get that hotline number. Remember, drugs and alcohol and addiction, problems with that, go hand in hand with PTSD. And if you’ve been in the service or not, you can go to our friend, former Gambino soldier, Anthony Ruggiano. Tell him I sent you. And let me know if you go down there and do that. That would be interesting. He’s a good guy. I had him on the show one time. Don’t forget to like and subscribe. Don’t forget that we like somebody to give us a review every once in a while on the audio podcast. Make comments. let me know if you like it you don’t like it got any ideas for new shows let me know if you don’t have any contacts with people who want to tell their story let me know you know we just have fun here telling these mob stories and i really appreciate y’all keep coming back as they say thanks guys.
...more
28min
April 29, 2024 Underboss: The Untold Story of Carl DeLuna in the Mob
Retired Intelligence Detective Gary Jenkins brings you the best in mob history with his unique perception of the mafia. Today, we delve into the intriguing saga of Carl “Tuffy” DeLuna, a notable figure in the Kansas City organized crime milieu. Known as a formidable Underboss with ties to the Civella family, Carl DeLuna commanded respect and fear for his powerful and ruthless demeanor. Though born in Brooklyn, he made his mark in Kansas City, engaging in various criminal activities ranging from armed robberies to overseeing a highly profitable skim operation that yielded substantial profits for the mob. DeLuna’s ascent to prominence involved close ties to influential mobsters such as Nick Civella, and he played a key role in crucial decisions affecting the mob’s operations. Tuffy’s presence was integral to the mob’s functioning, from enforcing discipline to managing sportsbook operations and ensuring the smooth running of illegal enterprises. His counsel was sought in pivotal discussions and actions, underscoring his role as a trusted advisor and enforcer. The dynamic between Tuffy DeLuna and Nick Civella sheds light on their relationship and how Tuffy’s advice influenced critical decisions. His involvement in maintaining discipline and resolving internal conflicts within the mob highlighted his importance as Nick Civella’s right-hand man. Tuffy’s ability to manage various aspects of organized crime made him a valuable asset to the underworld. Tuffy’s narrative also explores his clash with the Spero brothers and the ensuing violent confrontations that shook the Kansas City mob scene. The complex web of alliances, betrayals, and power struggles exemplified the volatile nature of organized crime and the deadly consequences those involved face. Tuffy’s role in orchestrating and executing violent acts to retain control over the criminal empire showcased his unwavering commitment to the Civella Family’s interests. When the Government finally arrested and convicted DeLuna, it marked the end of an era for the Kansas City mob. His enduring legacy as a powerful and influential figure in organized crime speaks to the intricate world of mob operations and the individuals who navigated its perilous waters. The compelling narrative of Carl “Tuffy” DeLuna’s life provides insight into the complex workings of organized crime, highlighting the power struggles, alliances, and betrayals that shaped the criminal underworld in Kansas City. Tuffy’s legacy as a formidable figure in the mob world and his lasting impact on the Kansas City crime scene solidify his place in the annals of organized crime history.
Support the Podcast
Subscribe to get new gangster stories every week.
Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire
Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee”
To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here
To rent Brothers against Brothers, the documentary, click here.
To rent Gangland Wire, the documentary, click here
To buy my Kindle book, Leaving Vegas: The True Story of How FBI Wiretaps Ended Mob Domination of Las Vegas Casinos.
To subscribe on iTunes click here. Please give me a review and help others find the podcast.
Donate to the podcast. Click here!
Transcript
[0:00]
Introduction
[0:00]Hey guys, welcome to the studio of Gangland Wire back here in cold old Kansas
City. But I’ve got a story for you today.
I’ve been kind of remiss in a way, not really paying that much attention to
Kansas City. I need to start doing these.
I had somebody on YouTube, I think, he said, why don’t you do some short bios
of all your Kansas City, your main guys.
[0:22]And so I’m starting to do that. This is going to be the first one,
I don’t know if it’ll be the first one up.
But anyhow carl angelo tuffy de luna he
was such an interesting guy and he figured so big he
was the arty pescano character in the movie and
scorsese movie casino he was famous for
keeping the notes and the whole nine yards so and
he has a great name tuffy he’s born in 1927 give you an a idea of how old he
was and he was an organized crime figure who was really once a really really
powerful underboss here in Kansas City and recognized really nationwide because
of his connection to Nick Civella.
And he was also the brother-in-law to Kansas City crime boss Anthony Tony Ripe Civella.
His sister Molly had married Tony Ripe. And Tony Ripe Civella was the nephew,
Nick Civella, and the son of Carl Cork Civella.
So he had those blood ties, you know, Nick Civella and the Civellas, they kept things close.
If you weren’t in this inner group that
they took in and knew a lot about you were
you know you were not going to get anything going with
them and and so time tuffy he had
a native intelligence he was a bright guy he could he could be personable he
had a you know could do things with a velvet glove but he had a mailed or an
iron fist on the inside of that velvet glove the only thing was amount to this
wild ground breaks down on Lefty.
[1:51]Lesley and Bob Brown both got a criminal suit for rap.
If Bob Brown got any time to lay with the commission and all the authorities,
[2:03]
Super Bowl Bets
[1:59]they’re taking the attitude who we didn’t pull no fucking roll for our eyes.
Bob Brown was Lefty’s industry. We can’t prove it, but he was.
[2:10]Tuffy was born in Brooklyn. He wasn’t born in Kansas City. Most of these Civellas,
except for Nick, I think, might have been born in Chicago.
They were born in Kansas City. But Tuffy was born in Brooklyn and moved to Kansas City as a young man.
I don’t know much about his life before that. But his parents must have brought
him here because he had extended family.
He had a brother, Frank Deluna, who was a Kansas City guy, moved to New Orleans
or moved to Shreveport, actually, and spent a lot of his adult life there.
I never knew much about him. He’s moved back and he’s here in Kansas City now.
But Tuffy’s who we’re talking about.
And as he came up, he was an armed robber. He was a traveling armed robber.
It was back in the 50s, 60s when he was a young man come of age and needed to make money.
[2:55]A lot of these guys had robbery crews and they were traveling around the country
robbing grocery stores.
One time the FBI in the early 60s followed him and were on him and they started
going west and he went to Denver. And he met with a guy who was connected to
the Small Dome family, who was one of those kind of armed robbers.
And then they followed them up to Seattle and they lost them up there,
I believe, but they didn’t go any further than that, but that’s what they were doing.
They’re traveling around to different grocery stores.
I know for a fact, because I know this from a guy, the word was,
you don’t eat where you should.
You do not do these robberies in Kansas City.
And so they were going to other parts of the country.
[3:42]And if you think about it, those robberies of supermarkets, if you’re of a certain
age, at my age, they were your ATM.
They had the cash money. When you got paid on Friday or Saturday,
many times you would just take your paycheck to the supermarket and cash it.
Or if you put it in the bank, then you would write a check for groceries and
then you’d get $20, $30 cash back.
Or you just go in and write a check for cash.
That was the ATM of those times. He was just, you know, a guy that was thoughtful
and was part of one of these crews.
And we know a little about one of these crews because his buddy,
his cousin, Sam Palma, got caught.
And he was a contemporary. He just toughy, may have gone along in this and just didn’t get caught.
I don’t know for sure, but I got a feeling he was just in the background on this one.
But what happened, they went to Houston. Houston, and another guy named Beans Inzarella.
We know for sure a fact he did because he caught a case out of it.
And Sam Palma, Tuffy’s cousin, he’ll catch a case out of it.
They go to Houston, they rob a supermarket down there, and they’ve got guns,
and somebody’s gun goes off and shoots one of the employees in the foot.
I couldn’t tell whether it was because they weren’t doing what they wanted to
do. I think it was an accidental discharge. There’s a gang that couldn’t shoot shoot straight here.
Anyhow, they shoot somebody in the foot and they, you know, the deal is don’t
shoot anybody. You know, that’s bad.
[5:11]You know, it just brings down heat, but they did. And so part of their scheme
was they would mail the guns and the money back to Kansas City.
They didn’t carry it back and then they would fly back or rent a car and drive
back or get somebody to come and get them, whatever. They would get back different ways.
They wanted to be really secretive on how they got in and out of these cities
and they didn’t want to be traced back to Kansas City. Thank you.
Then you could maybe figure out kind of who they might be and get pictures or,
you know, maybe fingerprints.
[5:40]And so they were doing this for quite a while.
Several guys in Kansas City were doing this. I knew one.
It ended up being a heroin act when in recovery. And he told me about doing
this. And he was kind of loosely connected to the mafia.
He was too much of a wild card. They couldn’t really do business with Bill.
But anyhow, that is in May. When they packaged it up, they sent it back to the
name of a guy they knew who was a taxi driver in Kansas City.
And on the path back, the package broke open.
The defense was that the cops found out about it and tore it open.
I talked to one of them, an FBI agent who was around during this time.
He was a real young agent.
And he said, to the best of his knowledge, nobody tore that open. It truly did break open.
Broke open. But when they got to Kansas City, they, you know,
they had the address and the name and who it was supposed to go to.
[6:38]
Murder of Sam Palma
[6:33]But I think it was like a will call. The person was going to come to the post office and pick it up.
The FBI and the postal inspectors put a surveillance on the postal post station there.
[6:47]And so they’re watching and they see this Beans Ziarella show up.
They see Sam Palmer show up. They see this guy in a taxi come in.
And so that’s whose name it’s in. So he starts to go in, they’re talking,
and he’s scared. It’s obvious he’s scared, and they’re talking.
And he, like, goes up, and he turns around and comes back.
And you could tell, the officers could tell they were really getting frustrated with him.
And finally, I think this Beans Ziarella the one. He went up and got the
package, and then the Bureau swooped in.
They got Palma and Beans Ziarella and the taxi driver.
And he admitted pretty quick that, you know, they just asked me to go get this package.
I don’t know what’s in it. And they got them with the package and then,
you know, basically the evidence out of this robbery and they make them on it months later.
[7:34]Sam Palma, he’s like nervous and worried about going to jail.
He’s not really spent any time in jail.
He’s ran a joint down on Broadway. I think maybe his was the Pancake Patio.
I’m not sure. Anyhow, he’s not really spent much time in the penitentiary, if any at all.
[7:52]And he’s talking to his cousin, Taffy DeLuna, and word’s getting around.
He’s made some phone calls to other relatives, and he does not want to do this jail. jail.
And the night before he’s going down to be sentenced, a guy,
two guys from our intelligence unit, Kansas City intelligence unit,
and I knew one of them, Ray Kinney and his partner, Jimmy Doolin,
were just driving around.
You just drive around, troll different spots. And they happened to look into
a cat’s drugstore at the time. We had the big drugstores that were called cats.
And they have every drugstore had a soda fountain in it.
And they look in and there’s Tuffy DeLuna and his cousin, Sam Palmer,
says they’re having coffee.
Well, everything looks copacetic. There’s no reason to do anything. And they just go on.
It’s late at night. They just go on home after the shift ends.
And the next day, somebody calls the dispatcher, and they find a body on the
grave of Sam Palme’s father. And it was Sam Palma. And he’s been shot in the head.
He’s been shot a couple of times and there’s a there’s a note out there that
indicates this was a suicide,
and during this time somebody else finds his
car he had a 58 chevrolet i never forget that because
my mom we had one of my first cars i ever drove was a 58 chevrolet a 58 chevrolet
and it was parked more closer quite a ways away one walking distance to the
cemetery they find blood in it and they find a witness that then later at some
other place said that they saw two men trying to stuff something inside that
car that could have been a body.
[9:20]
Tuffy’s Rise to Underboss
[9:21]So the supposition is somebody killed
Sam Palma stuffed his body in his car took
him out dumped him off for his graveside left the suicide
note left the gun there and then drove the car back
and left it this other place the family today
would swear that it it was a suicide everybody
in that world would swear it’s a suicide i really don’t
think it was there was like a couple other mob guys
were bragging around how they were helped move the
body at night but nobody could ever really prove anything
those were just informant word the informants
were saying that that these guys were saying that they helped move that
body that night so somebody moved that body that
night that’s for sure nick savella will
promote tuffy to the underboss sometime he might have made his bones that night
he may have already made him i’m not sure but he definitely gets promoted to
underboss sometime after this around this time after tom almost highway simone
dies in 68 i I believe, or 69.
He died not too long after that.
And he was the old underboss and went all the way back to the,
really to the 50s and 40s with Nick Civella.
[10:30]Tuffy really was Nick Civella’s Swiss Army knife for everything.
He was his counselor, his consigliere, if you will. He didn’t really have anybody
else that was in that advisory capacity.
He had his brother, Cork Civella, but Cork Civella was, He was crude and rude
and loud and flamboyant and not thoughtful at all.
He would try to kill a fly with a sledgehammer.
And Nick Savella used a scalpel on everything he did. And Tuffy was his Swiss
Army knife. He was his scalpel.
He appointed him to be the in-between guy for most all the action that was going on.
And like the sports book, had a guy named Frank Tusa who worked out of the social
club, the Northview Social Club, what we called The Trap.
And Frank Tusa only talked to Tuffy, and then Tuffy would carry information
back to Nick if there was anything Nick needed to know about the book and what
was going on. That’s where Nick made a mistake.
One of the few mistakes he made cost him, 1970.
[11:32]He was worried about the Super Bowl bets. The books were not in balance.
You know, a bookie doesn’t gamble.
He takes an equal amount of bets on both sides. Well, here in Kansas City,
the Chiefs are playing the Vikings, Vikings and there was just a ton of action
going down on the Chiefs.
Frank Tusa is worried about it and that gets back to Nick and Nick calls him on the phone.
Well, they got a bug on that phone and he’s worried to Nick and Nick said,
well, you have to lay off. What do you think?
And so Nick was really, he was taking like a managerial interest and that’s,
they convicted him of taking this managerial interest in this bookmaking scheme.
Just a few hours before the Kansas City Chiefs would face the Minnesota Vikings
in the Super Bowl, Nick Civella placed a call to the tapped payphone inside the trap.
He spoke with gambler Frank Tusa, who was accepting bets called in by bookies.
The Chiefs were a 12-point underdog heading into the game, and yet the betting
heavily favored the Chiefs.
The action on Kansas City was so lopsided, so many people were betting on Kansas
City to win, that Frank Tousa became concerned.
Hey, we’re going to really take a bath if Kansas City wins here.
Nick wanted to know just how bad, so he called Frank Tusa up at the trap.
[12:52]Hello? Hello, how are you? Fine, how are you? Okay, how’d you finish for today? How’d you set?
43. What do you mean? That’s how we stand.
You mean? 4-7-3-6-0 Oh, God.
You mean you’re… 4-7-3-6-0, hi.
[13:15]Oh, shit. Where’s all this from? Right here.
I guess there ain’t much you can do about it. Okay, I’ll let you go. All right. All right.
And because of that conversation, we were able to tie Nick as the overall manager
of the Kansas City gambling operations, and he was ultimately convicted of that.
Nobody testified, but it was strictly from the telephone. phone.
Actually, there was an attempted murder and a murder of people who could have
testified about Nick Savelle in that.
One of the key witnesses in the case was Saul Landy, who made book as a sideline.
In November 1970, several men invaded Landy’s home on pretense of robbery.
They killed Landy. They were quickly apprehended and connected to John Johnny Frank’s Francovelia.
Local prosecutor Joe Teasdale averred that the young black men arrested were
pawns of organized crime, that it was no coincidence Johnny Franks was a career
criminal associate of Nick Civella.
[14:19]Nick, of course, denied any connection. Famous mob lawyer and mayor of Las Vegas,
Oscar Goodman, was one of several lawyers who defended Nick on appeal of the
gambling conviction and helped keep him out of jail for seven years.
Nick kept the KC Mafia family relatively small, and like the mob in Chicago
during the 1970s, it was now being called the Outfit.
Nick Civella’s innermost circle consisted of his family, his brother Cork,
his nephew Tony Ripe, and Carl Tuffy DeLuna.
Tuffy, who grew up on the north side streets of Kansas City,
was very much the muscle for the Civella family.
Tuffy was sort of a mix between Nick Civella and Corky Civella.
He was Nick’s right-hand guy. He was Nick’s principal enforcer.
I would call him probably Nick’s real underboss, even though Corky was believed
to occupy that position.
I think of all of those guys, Tuffy was probably the guy that was being groomed to take Nick’s place.
The Camisano faction of the family, headed by the notorious Willie the Rat Camisano,
oversaw fencing of stolen goods.
[15:26]Notwithstanding the cloud of conviction hovering over Nick Civella,
the 1970s would prove to be the zenith of organized crime in Kansas City.
During this time, the Spiro brothers, Nick, Carl,
Mike, and Joe Spiro, S-P-E-R-O, just like Anthony Spiro in New York,
they were kind of like young Turks near the wells in that world, if you will,
kind of the blue collar guys of associates of the mob.
But Mike Spiro was in In the Teamsters, he had a Teamsters position,
a business agent or something like that, one of the locals.
His older brother, Nick, was well known, as well as Mike, to be able to get
people jobs on the docks and in the truck lines through their Teamster connections.
And the Spirals were wanting more Teamster connections, and Nick Savella really
was not bringing them in to do anything more.
[16:22]And they wanted, like the younger brother, Carl, was really a professional criminal and had a crew.
And he didn’t want to have to pay tribute to the Sabellas. He wanted more action himself.
They may have known about the scam from Las Vegas, which was just starting.
I don’t know. They may have wanted a piece of that.
Nick Sparrow, the oldest brother, gets found dead in his trunk.
Carl Sparrow was in jail at the time on a jewelry robbery, I think.
And it comes out shortly after and gets with these two brothers,
Joe and Mike, and they are going after the Civella’s.
Civellas find out about this through a series of events.
Carl Spero has gotten a guy out of jail.
[17:03]
Assassination Attempts on Tuffy
[17:03]Parole off you know had him kind of a no-show job nick now carl spiro’s cousin scratch koozie,
has a meat market so he claims that
he’s working for koozie’s meat market he’s not working somebody at
a savella run meat market a guy who’s a
bookie named al brandemeyer walks out
one night with a bunch of cows because he’s also doing book
making activities in that meat market it walks out and a guy shows up and puts
two guns on him and puts him in his trunk takes his money and then shoots a
bunch of rounds into the trunk and starts yelling you know hey you tell nick
sabella the arabs in town well this leonard crego was the guy that carl spiro got out of jail,
almost did a no-show job and his
name was leonard crego and they called him the arab so it’s
he goes back to jail pretty quick because he was a loose
cannon he was trying to rob a drug dealer and the police caught him in
the act but you know kind of the words out
they the savellas have picked up another guy and tortured
him when they found his body he’s had marks of cigarette burns
and stuff on him and he probably had spilled all the beans that
carl spiro was wanting to move on the savellas and
and move in on them and and nick’s nick sparrow nick savella is in jail for
that old 1970 gambling conviction finally this is 77 i think finally all he
exhausted all of these peels because he took it all the way as far as he could all the delays he could.
[18:32]He’s about ready to get out of the penitentiary and he sends a
message back to through cork that i
want all unfinished business taken care of when i’ll get back and that means
there’s some murders out there and that means take care of these sparrows there’s
two murders that don’t seem to be related that happened real quick and then
in april that year 1977 or 78 the remaining three three Spiro brothers,
next to the oldest one, he’s been killed.
The remaining three Spiro brothers are in a tavern, their favorite tavern,
their hangout, their meeting place called the Virginia Tavern.
And three guys appear in the back door.
Two of them spin off to the left where Mike and Joe Spiro are sitting and just
start shooting at them. And they go down.
Carl Spiro is over by the front door, directly across from the back door.
And he’s on the telephone and And he sees what’s happening and he boogies out
the front door down the street and a guy, masked guy with a shotgun,
12 gauge pump action shotgun,
goes busting out the front door and chugging down the street with a shotgun
and finally stops and takes aim and pops Carl Sparrow in the back. He goes down.
He’s going to be a paraplegic the rest of his life. He never slowed down being
a criminal, but he did to do it in a wheelchair. chair.
[19:47]Mike is dead. The one who actually was a teamsters and they wanted to get a
better teamsters job for him.
But Nick Sabella chose somebody else.
He’s dead and Joe’s been wounded. So Joe and Carl now start plotting because
they’ve got information that Tuffy DeLuna was a guy with the shotgun that day.
And Tuffy DeLuna is the guy who led this team and he was the underboss.
And the people that went with him, they’ve got the names of them,
Joe Ragusa and Charlie Mortina, because Joe Sparrow Groves eventually going
to leave a letter after he dies on who was in that team.
[20:20]They go after Tuffy because he was the leader of the team. He’s the most important
guy. He’s the biggest threat.
They go after him big time with sniper rifle.
First of all, Joe gets hides over by his house and his Tuffy walks in from parking
on the street. He walks in.
He takes a shot at him with a deer rifle, misses him. I think he was drunk that
night. Anyhow, misses him. And we sent a couple of detectives over.
They had an informant that was close to Joe Spiro at the time,
and he told them about it. They sent two detectives over, and he denied that it happened.
And they said, well, what about that hole out there in your siding there?
And he said, I don’t know. That must have been there a long time.
[21:00]Continue on this plan to kill Tuffy DeLuna. It’s kill Tuffy DeLuna with Joe Spero.
Carl Sparrow gets dynamite from one guy. He gets a remote-controlled detonating
device from another guy.
And Carl Sparrow, Joe Spero, then gets it from Carl, and he puts it together,
and he has a couple of peckerwoods working for him, and one of them’s a police informant.
He was informing about this bomb thing that they’re building, and
and and he didn’t inform it in time because one
night joe sparrow catches toughy out in
front of this the famous villa capri where toughy will will be found talking
about you know the skim and everything catches his car out front on the street
slip the bomb underneath it and then stand back about a half a block and when
toughy goes out and gets in the
car to drive off he hits the button and it doesn’t go and just drive off.
And Joe sent one of his guys, Conrad Metz. He made him walk up and get that
sack with the bomb in it. He brings it back.
[22:03]Okay, Tuffy gets away. They’re still after Tuffy big time.
But we’ve got that informant inside that little crew.
And so we arrest Joe and this Conrad Metz. And the informant was the third one.
[22:18]
Final Retribution on Spiro Brothers
[22:15]And they can’t make Carl. So Carl’s still out there.
He’s still a threat. he’s uh he’s done by this
he’s starting to start a used car lot and joe
will get convicted mets will get convicted mets
will go to jail joe will be out on the peel and he’ll
walk into a storage facility where he has more dynamite stored and guns and
things like that as he goes in the storage facility it blows up some savella
guys will swear that they blew it up other people just say it was It was an
accidental detonation of the dynamite he already had. Anyhow,
Joe’s dead, so it only leaves Carl.
And eventually they’ll get him. They’ll make an effort and put a big,
like 29 sticks of dynamite underneath his car with a mercury switch out at his house.
And his nephew finds that before he gets in the car.
Then they put one at this used car shack where he was supposedly selling used
cars. He never sold any cars.
He was just fencing and selling drugs and guns and things like that.
But that explosion in that used car lot will blow him and his wheelchair clear
up through the roof and dump him out in the parking lot.
Tuffy DeLuna would have been behind all that. He would have been the guy that
hired whoever did that. He probably was even there close by to make sure it happened.
[23:30]He was just that kind of guy. And, of course, as I mentioned about this Villa
Capri from the famous casino movie where they pan up and they show that microphone in a corner store.
Well, it wasn’t in a corner store. or was in this bill at the free and Tuffy
is sitting there talking to court, Nick’s brother about different things in
Las Vegas, about the team shares about $25 million.
They say something about a win on that with them and Tuffy’s,
you know, finally Tuffy says, we’ve got to find the phone.
And then we started following Tuffy and he’s a hard one to follow, man. He is tough.
He would stop and look out, see if there’s an airplane out there.
And the Bureau had brought in about 10 more guys, About six guys from the intelligence
unit gave us radios with them, and we all had select cars, and they had two airplanes,
so one could be up at all times if one started running out of gas.
If you remember, the famous FBI plane ran out of gas, had to land in the Las
Vegas Country Club golf course.
We don’t want that, so we got two planes ready to go.
[24:32]One gets low and they’re still moving. They bring the other one up and finally
find him at a bank of pay phones in a kind of a hotel, an obscure kind of industrial
area that would be right next to I-435.
[24:46]
Secret Phone Conversations
[24:46]And so they find a bank of pay phones and follow him there and get on them.
And he’s talking to Joe Gosco all the time about what’s going on in Las Vegas,
talking about sending money back.
They call them sandwiches from the trop, the tropicana, Canada,
talking about what’s going on with Lefty and over at the Stardust.
And they were talking about the Kansas City mob wanted to get a package together.
[25:12]Get some investors that they would then back and help set up with a Teamsters
loan and buy out Alan Glick. See, Tuffy had been the guy.
Like I said, it wasn’t Chicago.
It wasn’t Milwaukee. It wasn’t Cleveland.
It was Kansas City that told Alan Glick he had to sell the Stardust and those
other three casinos that he had, the Stardust, the Haas Inn and the Fremont,
and get out of the business because he wasn’t getting on with Lefty.
And they’d already told him, you know, you got to do what Lefty tells you to do.
They had brought Glick back earlier and talked to Nick and Nick told him,
you got to do what Lefty wants you to do.
And that’s when Nick or Alan Glegg told Lefty, I mean, told Nick Civella and
Tuffy Luna sitting there that, you know, hey, no, Frank Balistrieri said this
and Frank Balistrieri said that.
And he testified to this.
And Nick Civella turned to Tuffy Luna and said, you know, well,
Fancy Pants thinks he can do something here.
He said, you need to get on up there. And Tuffy said, yeah, I’ll do that.
But see, Tuffy was the guy. Tuffy had been to Chicago and met with Iupa.
And he was the guy that went around and did all these kinds of things for Nick
because Nick stayed in the background.
It was kind of like Tony Accardo with his upfront bosses.
[26:36]And so Tuffy then was sent out to see Alan Glick and say, you know,
you’ve got to sell the Stardust.
You’re not doing what we want you to do.
And he’s in Oscar Goodman’s office sitting behind the desk the way Alan Glick described it.
He left. He tells him, you know, go to go to Oscar Goodman’s office.
Somebody needs to see it. So he goes over there, goes in Oscar’s office.
There’s Tuffy Luna sitting there.
Tuffy’s got his feet up on the desk, supposedly. Tuffy says,
hey, you know, you got to do whatever, make a public announcement,
do whatever you got to do and sell this casino.
[27:12]And Alan Glick kind of like, well, you know, I’m not quite ready to do that. I don’t want to do that.
And Tuffy said, I’ll tell you what, he said, you may find your life expendable,
but you won’t find the lives of your children expendable.
And then named off his wife and kids off a piece of paper he had there.
And that was enough for Alan Glick. Glick, he did make a public announcement
and started trying to sell the
casino pretty quick, Stardust and all of them. And he did try to sell it.
They sold it to another mob-controlled guy named Al Saxon and something,
Tabman, Michael or something, Tabman.
I don’t remember exactly, but sold it to another mob-connected guy.
It would be Kansas City’s job to go out and tell Glick he was done.
Not Milwaukee, not Chicago, not Cleveland, Kansas City.
On one occasion, Frank Rosenthal approached Glick and he said, I want you to meet a guy.
[28:12]And so they went over to Oscar Goodman’s office, and Oscar was not there.
Oscar, of course, was the attorney. And when they walked into the office,
Tuffy DeLuna was sitting behind Oscar’s desk with his feet up on the desk.
Mr. DeLuna’s demeanor is very vulgar. course and he used many profanities.
He said that he and his partners are sick and having to deal with me.
He informed me that it was their desire to have me sell the Argent Corporation
immediately and to announce the sale as soon as possible.
He said that in the event I didn’t take his threat seriously that I might find
my life expendable and he went on to.
[28:46]Music.
[28:51]And gave me the names and ages of each of my kids.
[29:09]Within the next few weeks, Alan Glick would make a public announcement that
he was selling the Argent Corporation. operation?
Lefty, I mean, Nick was talking to Tuffy at this time.
Besides that little operation of telling him he had to sell to put together
a package to buy the Stardust for Kansas City.
And he even set up a meeting with Joy Iupa to discuss that. Now, Iupa never did go for it.
Iupa was the big duck. You see, the thing about Nick Civella,
this is more about Nick than Tuffy, but Nick Civella, he always,
he got this skim 40 grand a month from the Tropicana.
He would send a piece of that to Joey Aiuppa. He didn’t have to because Chicago
did not help Nick infiltrate the Tropicana.
There’s no teamsters loan involved, nothing. Chicago had nothing to do with it.
But Tuffy Luna was this guy through all this.
He was, you know, when we served the search warrant, finally, and it was St.
Valentine’s Day, 80, I think, and served these search warrants.
And I I was at Tuffy’s house, a really nice guy to talk to. You wouldn’t want him after you.
I know I was, he like, we almost caught him and a couple other guys fighting.
[30:22]Hitting Carl Spiro just accidentally, almost caught him. And we drove in and
we saw him driving around, driving around this bar.
We got in closer. Now I looked in my rearview mirror and they were behind me
and they just kind of started following along behind me. I think they were suspicious who I was.
And I got to a stoplight a few blocks away and I’m sitting there in the straight
go ahead lane and they’re in the left turn lane.
And when the light turned, I just kind of glanced over and there’s Tuffy look
just staring at me. And he kind of gives me half a grin and they take a left and they’re gone.
They’re gone. And he had not really seen me before.
But, you know, I’m like a 35, 38 something white guy, you know,
dressed with, you know, decently and half, you know, just kind of a middle of
the road salesman kind of car.
But in that neighborhood, I did not fit.
Me, Tuffy, personally then in search warranties house. And he was very personal.
He even joked with this one agent. He had caught him trying to put a beeper
up underneath his car because they found the beeper.
So they were joking about Tuffy said, yeah, he said, I almost caught you, didn’t I?
He said, yeah, you did. I guess he chased him down the street.
But Tuffy had an alarm on his car that would send a signal to a beeper that
would just buzz if somebody jostled his car.
So he ran out there in the middle of the night and almost caught this agent with the car.
That was the second time. He didn’t know about the other time.
He almost caught somebody up underneath his car. or some other agent saw it
and warned the guy off, and they got out of there.
[31:48]Finally, I’ll never forget, we had this FBI agent who was in charge of Tuffy’s house.
[31:53]And by this time, it’s getting late at night. It’s like 2 o’clock in the morning.
We’ve been there since 8.
And his kid had gotten all mad. His kid, he had a teenage, upper-teen boy who
had come home in the middle of this, and he was mad.
And, as a matter of fact, I remember Tuffy told his wife, said,
Sandy, he said, call somebody.
He even gave him a name and had him come and get Rick. So pretty soon a young
guy shows up and takes Rick off.
And he’s telling Sandy’s wife, said, you know, just make some coffee with these officers.
You know home gonna be cool finally tells shay area
this old-time fbi agent been working a mob since
the 50s he said shay said you might as well
go down to the basement here that’s where all the good stuff is and that’s
where they found the notes and he did keep notes he
kept you know like he was worried about the money he was spending going out
there so he had a note about 160 airfare for him 160 airfare for his wife so
much for the hotel room how much he spent for the hotel room But he also had
like the breakdown of the skim on in Kansas City,
had these guys names that were mob guys like Tiger and Dude and Tommy and who else?
[33:00]Felix and these different guys. And we knew were the old school made guys.
And they all had a percentage of the skim that was coming back from the trop.
Now, I don’t know if the skim that was coming down from Chicago that came out
of the Stardust. I don’t know who got what, but this was about the Tropicana
and the skim coming out of that.
And a lot of other notes in there about meetings they had, talking about meeting 22 and talking to 22.
And somehow they figured out 22 was Iupa in Chicago.
[33:30]And I think 23 was Jackie Cerrone.
But anyhow, they put all that together and made the cases. And Tuffy goes to jail in, I think, 1988.
He gets about 20 years. And when he comes out, he’s really pretty old.
[33:51]
Tuffy’s Death in 2008
[33:47]Things have moved on quite a little bit. He comes out in 1998.
He died in Kansas City in 2008.
One last little personal story about Tuffy the Loon. I saw a little article
in the paper after he’d been back a short period of time. I didn’t know he was out. I’m off.
I’m out of the intelligence unit. I’m off doing other things.
And said that he was banned from local casinos after they caught him in there.
So I guess somebody recognized he was in there playing blackjack or poker,
probably, because he wouldn’t be playing the slot machines.
He’s a big card player. A friend of mine back home once went to a big gin rummy
tournament, and he ended up playing across the table from Tuffy DeLuna.
He remembered it because Tuffy, when it came his turn to deal,
he’d always, like, try to pass on the deal.
And finally, this guy, he didn’t know Tuffy from baloney, you know.
I’m not going to do it. You need to deal. your turn. He said, Oh, okay, so he did.
Then he founds out later some guy gets him aside and says, you know who that
was you confronted about that dealing thing?
He said, I don’t know. He said, Tuffy DeLuna. He said, well,
who’s Tuffy DeLuna? This guy didn’t know.
[34:54]But Tuffy could not gamble at the casino after they caught him in there.
I think I said to him, he ends up dying in 2008.
So that’s kind of an overview of Carl Tuffy DeLuna because of Nick Pelleggi
and his book Casino and the Movie.
[35:13]Artie Piscano, you know, he’s like one of the more famous mobsters and supposedly
a bumbling mobster, but he really wasn’t.
He wasn’t a bumbler at all.
He was a very dangerous guy. He’s a very smooth guy.
[35:24]He took care of business. He
[35:31]
Tuffy as Consigliere
[35:26]never talked out of school except on these phones and maybe in Nixabella.
Now, actually, the house that Nixabella chose, it was a cool location,
but because they were already on these other phones, they bugged
that meeting that really really laid the skim out and and
he wasn’t really talking out of school over at the Villa Capri it
was really like in general but when we found
those secret phones we were able to follow him and find those
secret phones that pay phones in a hotel with a
bank up they’d use a different one every time and even
then they’d change out to different phones but you were so
on time by then his patterns it was easy to
get onto those next phones why uh you
know it all came down and but next sabella
and erica caught him talking to tuffy a lot
and probably could have convicted him off that conversation because
he talked in the lawyer’s office and we got bugs in the lawyer’s office and
that’s when i found out that tuffy listened to those conversations tuffy was
a real counselor and consigliere to nick savella nick would bounce things off
him what do you think about this what do you think about that remember for example
one time he said something could i If I call,
Nick wanted to know, do you think I could call Lefty Rosenthal directly?
Because we’ve got to get him to cool down. He’s got to cool down.
[36:44]Well, if Lefty was to get a fucking phone call from somebody,
it might tone him down, even if he has a press conference. Fine.
I tried to rationalize my own position by calling him.
I’m sure that I’ve been told more than once right now, anytime you want to,
sure, of course you can call us, you know, the day you want,
you know, you’ve got a right to, you know, and I said, well, gee,
you couldn’t have given us a call, you know, courtesy of a call.
[37:23]If you wanted to call it, Nick, I don’t see a fucking thing going on with it.
And they did tell you that.
They told you that before. I thought I was already probably.
Tuffy said, well, I think you can. He said, we had a meeting about that.
And I remember that. And he referred to some meeting in Chicago.
And in the end, he did call Lefty Direct and told Lefty he needs to cool it.
And so he’s telling, again, running this by Tuffy. And, you know, what do you think?
And he said, you know, he said, he might lie to you.
So it was just a real interesting, real deal mafia underboss that,
[38:05]
Tuffy’s Role as Underboss
[38:02]again, he was Nick Sabella’s Swiss Army knife.
He took care of everything on the streets, whether it be killing somebody,
enforcing somebody, you know, making sure that the sports book was running good,
all that, all those kinds of things.
He never took care of swag. Swag, every of the people did the swag business.
And that was Willie Calasano. That’s a whole other story there.
Willie Calasano, Willie the Rat.
So thanks a lot, guys. I really appreciate y’all listening. Don’t forget,
I like to ride motorcycles.
So if you’re out on the street in your car, watch out for motorcycles.
If you have a problem with PTSD and you’ve been in the service,
go to the VA website and get that hotline number.
Hand in hand with PTSD and is drug and alcohol addiction with depression.
[38:44]Drug and alcohol addiction.
You know go to angelo rugiano
he has his own youtube and website and
everything he has a hotline number on there he’s a drug and alcohol counselor
former gambino soldier down in florida drug
and alcohol counselor go see him let me
know about it if you do it’d be interesting good story if you
have a desire to get
on facebook if you’re on facebook i want you to
come to the gangland wire podcast group well
we’ve got 50 000 people there’s tons of good pictures and
like interesting comments from people who grew
up in the neighborhood or or new people and
not really some of them are mobsters i’m promising that they don’t ever say
they are but you can just tell by the way they talk and i know i’ve got one
guy who’s actually came over from sicily and was involved with joe massino and
[39:40]
Connect with Gangland Wire Podcast Group
[39:35]sal batali in that section of the banana family and i’ve interviewed him.
If I haven’t put it out by now, I will eventually. He’s on there a lot and can
answer questions about that.
[39:47]And so it’s just a lot of fun. So don’t forget to like and subscribe.
If you’re on Facebook, give me a review.
If you’re on the audio podcast app, and don’t forget, I’ve got the movies out
there, Gangland Wire about the skim, Brothers Against Brothers about the Sabella-Spiral
War on YouTube for only about 99. I got my book, Leaving Vegas.
I think the The audio on that, you can click on the audio on the links to the
transcripts and hear the actual wiretap audios on that.
...more
49min
April 22, 2024 Mobsters & Movies: The Untold Story of Hollywood’s Dark Past
Retired Intelligence Detective Gary Jenkins brings you the best in mob history with his unique perception of the mafia. Join Gary in his interview with author Jeffrey Sussman, who penned the revealing book “Tinseltown Gangsters: The Rise and Decline of the Mob in Hollywood.” Discover the untold stories behind the glamorous facades of the movie industry, where figures like Mickey Cohen wielded immense influence, and shocking events like the Lana Turner murder of Johnny Stompanato sent shockwaves through the silver screen.
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Transcript
[00:00:00] Welcome all you wiretappers. Glad to be back here in studio of Gangland Wire. I’ve got one of our good friends who’s been on the show many times from New York City.
Jeffrey Sussman. Welcome, Jeffrey. Glad to be here, Gary. It’s really nice to see you again. Yeah, I sure wish we could have met up when I was in New York that time. That would have been fun. I was, every once in a while I’ll meet somebody I only know through the camera here. It’s always a lot of fun. Well, well, I hope you come to New York again soon.
I’ll let you know. I’ll give you a little more advanced warning next time. I didn’t tell you anything until I was there almost getting ready to go or something, but anyhow. Right. You have a new book. You have several books out there, and we’ve talked about several of them. You know, of note, I just had a guy on my Facebook page post something about, he posted a picture of your book, Boxing and the Mob, and talked about that book.
And so I, commented on their hanging on. Here’s an interview with the author and somebody else said, yeah, he said, that’s how I found the book. So, [00:01:00] so it does work. I’m glad to know that I’m going to have to make you my agent, Gary. Yeah, really? I need to get a piece of this action here, man. That’s right. You have 10, 10 percent coming to you.
And don’t hold out on me, man. I won’t. I’ll be very generous. I’ll have to send Guido from the North end there to see you
anyhow, he has a new book, Tinseltown gangsters. There it is guys. And I’ll have links to it and I’ll have links to his Arthur’s page because he is got several. You’ve got one about now I can’t remember the titles. If you can remember ’em, want you to recite ’em off to the guys. You’ve got so many, you’re pretty prolific.
Well, well, the, the, the books that I’ve written about organized crime were big Apple gangsters, the Rise in Decline of the Mob in New York since City Gangsters the Rise and Decline of the Mob in Las Vegas, boxing in the Mob. And now this new one Tinseltown Gangsters the Rise and Decline of the Mob in Hollywood.
Cool. So this is the one we want to [00:02:00] talk about. The rise and decline of the mob in Hollywood. And it’s, it’s really an interesting story because they kind of had a, a small, I think the word is nascent, but we won’t use that word, a small beginner kind of a mob out there. The Dragna family was, was kind of in control, but it was really just like Las Vegas.
It was pretty wide open for the Eastern mobs to come out and do something. And so they moved out and Bugsy Siegel was one of the first guys that we really know about that moved out, which, you know, the, the decline of Bugsy Siegel just led to a whole different group of mobsters coming out from Chicago.
And, and it just, you know, that, that was a pivotal moment, I would say. So Jeffrey, let’s talk a little bit. What’d you learn about kind of the, the decline of Bugsy Siegel? We know it was a New York mobster that came out and to put a casino in Las Vegas. So go ahead. Well He was originally sent out to control the [00:03:00] racing wildfire that all the bookies had to subscribe to.
But then he got more and more involved in, in, in Hollywood. He liked the whole Hollywood scene and he had been a boyhood friend of George Raft, the actor. who had been a protege of the gangster Oni Madden. And, and George Raft introduced him to the entire Hollywood crowd. And, and Bugsy Siegel had these tremendous parties of Hollywood movie stars and directors and producers, and he would borrow money from them and never pay them back.
And they felt that they had to lend him the money because he was such a dangerous character. If they didn’t lend him the money, they might be killed. And, and Bugsy bragged. In a conversation with Meyer Lansky that he had borrowed over 400, 000 from these people and never paid them a penny back and and and they never asked him for the money they were they were frightened of asking him to pay back the money and and and he [00:04:00] took over control of prostitution small gambling operations in and around Los Angeles.
And then he took control of the extras union. And he used that as a way to further extort money from the movie studios, that if they did, you know, if they needed a hundred extras on a set, they better, you know, meet his demands or the extras would go on strike. And that would put an end to the production of a movie, and that would cost the studios millions and millions of dollars.
So he was able to do that, and he used as his bag man to do this Mickey Cone. Who, who was sort of Siegel’s protege. And while Bugsy Siegel was a very handsome and very charming a very well dressed man who could associate socially with all these people Mickey Cone was a real thug and, and had the manners of a thug.
And so if, if Bugsy sent him around to see someone who was a little [00:05:00] recalcitrant about paying off. Mickey Cone could easily threaten them with just a few words and they would cave in immediately and, and, and, and give them exactly what they wanted. And when Bugsy was finally killed, Mickey Cone was bereft.
He, he, he, he, he, he, he felt terrible. He went into a hotel in, in Los Angeles and started shooting up at the ceiling saying, whoever shot Bugsy Siegel, I bet he better come down right now because I’m going to blow his brains out. And no one came down. So, so Mickey Cone just had to leave with, with his gun still smoking.
But, but Mickey Cone was quite a character. You know, he started out as a pre adolescent gangster when he was nine years old. And he was a very short little guy. When he was nine years old, he went with a baseball bat and two other guys and they held up a major movie theater in Los [00:06:00] Angeles by threatening the ticket taker with the bat.
And, and he and his pals walked away with whatever money they had in the movie theater, but he was only nine years old when, when he did this, he was a total menace on, on, on the street. And then he he moved back to Chicago. And was a a boxer for a while and, and, and did pretty well, but, but he he killed a guy in, in, in, in Chicago in a restaurant over nothing, just over an argument and the outfit thought he was too hot to stay there.
So they sent him back to Los Angeles, which is where he started working for Bugsy Siegel. And, and the first time he went to meet Bugsy Siegel. But Bugsy used to work out at, at the local YMCA every day, and he used to take sun lamp treatments and, and, and massages. He, he, he, he, he was a real narcissist and, mickey Cone was sent there to meet him. It was his first meeting and he couldn’t believe that this guy was really a gangster. [00:07:00] He, you know, he, he seemed more like a, a Hollywood hairdresser than a gangster. Gangster and, and finally, you know, Bugsy Siegel had to tell him that if you know, he didn’t mind his manners, he, he, he would shoot him.
And, and George Raft w was sent by Bugsy Siegel to, to reemphasize this, to Mickey Coone. And, and, and he, he brought in Mickey Cohen as, as a, like a subordinate partner. To also control Jack Dragna, and, and, and, and Dragna’s mafia family, which was known as a Mickey Mouse mafia, because it was so small and inept, and Jack Dragna hated it.
Both Mickey Cone and Bugsy Siegel, but he was very frightened of going up against Bugsy Siegel because he knew that if he did, the New York mobsters would send some assassins to kill him, and he waited until after Bugsy Siegel was killed. Before he decided to go to war with Mickey [00:08:00] Cone and he he used tried to use Jimmy the Weasel, Fratiano as his emissary to, to get Cone on a few occasions and it never worked out.
I mean, Cone seemed to be made of Teflon, no matter how many times they tried to kill him, they always seem to miss and they must’ve tried a dozen times. He He owned a restaurant and also a men’s clothing store on Sunset Boulevard, and he was, he was a germaphobe, so he was always in the bathroom washing his hands.
And Jack Dragna had sent a gang. into the restaurant to assassinate Mickey Cone. And just before they arrived, Mickey Cone went into the bathroom to wash his hands. And, and, and he and his, his gang and Jack Dragna’s gang kind of shot it out in the restaurant and on the street outside the restaurant.
And when Mickey Cone heard the shooting, he just went out the back door of the restaurant and went home. So he [00:09:00] avoided being killed. And another time Jack Dragna put a a bomb Under the bedroom of Mickey Cone’s house. However, Mickey Cone and his wife, who normally slept in separate bedrooms, that night Mickey Cone decided to sleep with his wife.
Which was on the other side of the house. So the bomb went off and blew up Mickey Cone’s bedroom. And, and Mickey Cone shortly thereafter ran out onto the street in his pajamas asking what the hell’s going on. And, and half of his house had been demolished, but he was fine. He was the original Teflon Don, wasn’t he?
He really was. And it w it was extraordinary that they constantly missed him. And I know there was a gangster who worked for him. I can’t remember his name right now. And Jack Drakna tried to recruit him into his gang and they invited him to a meeting. [00:10:00] And they, they, they said, we want you to join us and leave Mickey Cone.
He said, I’m not going to. So Jimmy Tiano and another gangster came out from a closet and, and they strangled this guy and killed him. And, and they sent a message to Mickey Cone that, that what about what had happened? And, and, and cone’s reply was, well, I’m just gonna kill some more of your people.
You know, if you keep trying to kill my people. And, and, and, and this war went on and on and on all the time. So, but, but after Bugsy Siegel was killed, you know, he’s killed it’s probably because of, they suspected him as shenanigans with the money that they were pouring into the Flamingo. I believe it wasn’t at the Flamingo.
Yes. And, and then he’s killed and then Mickey Cohen’s still there. So what happens after that? What, how’s that transition to power work? Well, Mickey Cohn took over the rackets and he also took over the extorting [00:11:00] of, of the movie studios. But in, in, in addition to that, he, he also went into some new ventures.
So he, he started filming secretly filming. movie actresses who were having extramarital affairs and, and, and, and, and then blackmailing them to, to suppress the films. And he and a man named Hank Santa Cola, who was Frank Sinatra’s manager, started a A kind of like newspaper gossipy newspaper called Hollywood nightlight nightlife, and they would extort movie stars and directors, saying that if you didn’t take out a full page ad.
which was extremely pricey, that we were going to publish these stories about you. And even though Hank Santacola was Frank Sinatra’s manager, they even managed to extort Frank Sinatra about having an affair with Ava Gardner [00:12:00] while he was married to his first wife, Nancy Sinatra. So they made a fortune.
Doing this. One of the people they extorted was Robert Mitchum about his contact with, with hookers. And, and, and, and they extorted everyone that, that they could. And, and Mickey Cone used a gangster named Johnny Stompanato, who was killed by Lana Turner. However, Lana Turner and her lawyer were able to get Lana’s daughter to take the blame for the, for the murder.
I think her name was Cheryl Crane. I think so. You know, most people think that the daughter did it today. You know, I would have said, you know, the daughter did it, but Lana did it. And they got the daughter to take the rap because she’s a juvenile. Exactly. And so, you know, the daughter said that Johnny Stompanato was running at her in the doorway and she had a knife in her hand and the knife just accidentally went into his stomach [00:13:00] and that’s how he died.
However, when the medical examiner came, they saw that The sheet on Lana Turner’s bed was covered with blood. Well, that blood get onto the sheet. If he was stabbed, you know, the doorway of the bedroom and and, and, and he was stabbed multiple times in the back. So they, they, the medical examiner said it looked like he was stabbed while he was sleeping.
Yeah. And so Mickey Cone. Had all these love letters that Lana Turner had written to Johnny Stompanato, and, and he, Mickey Kohn loved Johnny Stompanato, he, he, he treated him like a son, and, and he was indignant that this, that the, that Lana Turner got away with the murder rap, and, and so he started publishing the letters, and, and, and, and printing them, but, But no one paid any attention to them.
And he even threatened to kill Lana Turner, but [00:14:00] nothing ever came with that. Interesting. He is an interesting guy. Another thing I want to ask about Mickey Cohen, and did he say I’m a Jew first and a mobster second when he was raising money for Israel? Cause this was the 1950s. Israel became a state in 1948 and they needed guns because they had all these Arabs were, were coming down on him.
So. Tell us a little bit about Mickey Cohen and I’m a Jew first and a mobster second. Yeah, he, he, he was very, very pro Israel. He was an ardent Zionist and he would hold these fundraising events to raise money of, of, of Israel. And, and he would invite gangsters, not only from Los Angeles, but from Arizona, from Phoenix, from Texas.
all over the Southwest to, to these shindigs. And, and he would ask people to stand up and announce how much money they were going to give. And if it wasn’t enough money, he walked over [00:15:00] to the guy and he, and he, he grabbed him by the by his forearm or his upper arm. And he would say, I think you can do a lot better than that.
Can’t you? And he would get them to double the money. And Jimmy the weasel Fratiano was at one of these And he, he pledged to give 25, 000 to Israel, but he never came through with the money. And so Mickey Cone had to pay him a personal visit. And with a gun to his head, he said you owe us 25, 000.
We don’t want it. And we don’t want to check. We want cash. So it sounds like Fraudiano kind of was playing both sides during this time. He, he, of course, he was Sicilian or Italian and he was with Dragna at one point in time. But, but now all of a sudden he’s, he’s with Cohen or he’s at least, you know, not actively trying to kill him all the time.
But yeah, Fratiana was all over the place. I mean, you know, for a brief period after, I think it was after Jack Dragna’s death, he was put in [00:16:00] charge of the Dragna family. He was the interim boss of it for a while, and then the outfit demoted him and made him a soldier again and he was very angry about that.
And then I don’t know if In the 1970s, there’s a famous photograph of Frank Sinatra with members of the Gambino crime family that was taken at the Westchester Premier Theater in New York. It was a theater that was run by the mob and it was driven into bankruptcy by the mob. And there he is, Jimmy.
Freddie is there in that photograph with the New York mobsters. So, you know, he was like this character who seemed to pop up wherever the mob was and eventually he admitted to five murders, though they think he actually committed 11 and he testified against the mob and went into the witness protection program.
And they eventually kicked him out of the program and he decided to become a writer. And, and he he, he, he wrote a book with a. Another writer, I think his name was Avid Damaris, called The Last Mafioso, and [00:17:00] then one other, and then he eventually developed Alzheimer’s and, and, and, and died. But he, he was the kind of guy who he was very opportunistic, and wherever he could, Make a buck.
That’s that’s where he was. So there he was with Jack Dragna for a while. He was with Mickey Cone for a while. He was with the Gambino crime family. He was with the outfit. He went to Arizona for a while. He seemed to be all over the map. Yeah, he was involved in a murder in Cleveland to getting them some explosives, I think.
But anyhow, that guy was he was something else. So. He is a product of Tinseltown, shall we say? Yes, absolutely. Mickey Cohen was maybe one of the most famous mobsters because of movies and television out of Tinseltown. And he was involved in extorting from the movie industry, but the outfit moves out there about this time.
Right. I just wanted to mention that when I was [00:18:00] growing up in the 1950s, there used to be an interview show on one of the local TV shows. It was run by a man named Alexander King. He frequently had Mickey Cone on as a guest. Oh, right. And he would appear with a woman who was a, a, a real classical kind of Hollywood bimbo, you know, with the big blonde hair and, and, and the low cut gown.
And, and this is in the middle of the afternoon and she looks like she’s dressed for New Year’s Eve. And, and, and, and Mickey Cohen was there and his. His feet could barely touch the floor when he was sitting on the chair. He was such a little guy. And it was funny to watch these two together being interviewed.
And he said on one of these shows, he said, I never killed anybody who didn’t deserve to be killed.
Man, that guy was, he was a piece of work, wasn’t he? Understand why he became almost like a household name. When I was a kid, I remember the name Mickey Cohen. He was, he [00:19:00] said gangster, you know, to me, he said gangster. I don’t remember Bugsy Siegel. I don’t remember any of those New York mobsters, but I remember Mickey Cohen.
He was a publicity hound also. He loved being interviewed and he loved being on television. And the other thing is that he teamed up for a while with the evangelist, Billy Graham, and they were going to do evangelist shows together. And at one point I think Mickey Cone was using Billy Graham to kind of whitewash his reputation.
And he promised Billy Graham that he would convert to to being a a fundamentalist Protestant and at the last moment backed out. And, and but, but Billy Graham continued to hope that that, that Mickey Cone would embrace Jesus Christ sometime in his, in his life. Wow. I didn’t, I’ve never heard that one before.
I did notice that in your book when I was going through [00:20:00] and I’ve gotten my notes here to ask you about that. I tell you what, he’s like, he was a precursor of these modern day Michael Franchise who converted to Christianity and, and, and Bobby Luisi, and then has a TV show, an internet show, a YouTube show, and Sammy the Bull, they’re all giving interviews and all that.
This guy was the start of it all. Yeah, it was amazing how that attracted a large number of people and convinced a large number of people that he had really reformed and he was no longer a gangster. And you have to wonder how many of these others who did the same thing, how sincere they really are.
Yeah, really. Well, they haven’t got caught at anything yet. Right. We’ll see. So. The, the, the outfit moves out, they’ve moved into Las Vegas right after Bugsy Siegel was killed, and all of a sudden [00:21:00] Dave Berman and let’s see, Gus Greenbaum, you know more about this than I do, from your book about The Rise and Fall of the Mob in Vegas, they move into the Vegas scene, and, and, Chicago seems to start heading West at this point in time.
They’ve already got Johnny Rosselli out there. He’s kind of in and around the scene. So what happens then? And we have in the late forties or middle to late forties, we had the Hollywood extortions, which so many of them fell on that’s kind of was, you know, like kind of dovetailed in with Cohen’s control of the Extras Union, they moved in on, I believe, the another one of the unions.
I don’t remember which one was stagehands or somebody, but yeah, it was, it was the stagehands and, and basically they, they started doing it in, in Chicago. Willie Beoff and a man named Brown started doing it and, and they were so successful at it. that the outfit sent them to Los Angeles because the pickings were so much [00:22:00] greater out there.
And they immediately went after one union after another, and they can, they gained control of, of, of several unions that dealt with the stagehands, the the carpenters. They also had the teamsters. Who delivered all the props and everything, so they were really controlling just about all the unions and they were reaping a whirlwind of money for the mob.
It was extraordinary. And they used Roselli.
As sort of their bagman and, and an ambassador because while Willie Biafra was just as crude in his course as Mickey Cone Johnny Roselli was more in the mode of Bugsy Siegel. He was a very good looking guy. He dressed expensively. He knew a lot of the movie people and, and, and could be charming with them.
And, and he would go [00:23:00] around. as Willie B. Opp’s bag man and he would collect the money and then they would send it to to Chicago. But Willie B. Opp almost got killed because they discovered that he was skimming. some of this money from for himself. And, you know, they gave him an ultimatum that he had to pay it back or else and he did.
But Will it be off was really a very, very bad person. I mean, there was nothing redeeming about him. This man was just a horrible human being. And one of the big movie studios that was really in debt to the mob, not only the outfit, but also mobsters in New York and New Jersey, was Harry Cohn, who, who was the president of Columbia Pictures the mob had invested a lot of money.
In Columbia Pictures helped to finance a lot of movies. And so for example, the mobster who was known as the Al Capone of New Jersey, a man named Longy [00:24:00] Zwilman had given 500, 000 to Harry Cohn of Columbia Pictures. And Harry Cohn offered to sign a an IOU for it, and Zwilman said, No, I want 500, 000 worth of Columbia Pictures stock.
And, and, and, and he got that. And Zwilman was the lover of Gene Harlow. And, and he went to Harry Cohn, he said, I wanted to star in this movie, this movie, this movie, and this movie. And, and Harry Cohn had no choice but to do that. And when Frank Sinatra wanted his part in From Here to Eternity his godfather in New Jersey was a partner of Longy’s Willman and Willie Moretti.
And Willie Moretti was the cousin of Frank Costello in New York. And so Frank Costello had also invested a lot of money in Columbia Pictures. And, and Willie asked Frank Costello to call Harry Cohn and ask him to give Frank Sinatra the part in the movie. And, and, and, and Costello did that.
And that’s how Frank Sinatra got the part. It wasn’t [00:25:00] like in The Godfather where a horse’s head was cut off or anything like that. It was fairly straight. It was, it was just returning a favor for a favor basically. Oh, interesting. I’ll tell you what, that it’s like, Somehow it’s almost like this is a small town.
People are connected to each other. They’re related to each other. And then it’s throughout the whole United States. So you’ve got this this web of connections all over the whole United States that people sometimes are even cousins. I know. And what was interesting though, also is. When Albert Anastasia wanted to take over Frank Costello’s mob, he, he, he didn’t want to do it because Willy Moretti had so many soldiers in his mob, that could have killed Albert Anastasia, so they waited until Willy Moretti was assassinated, and then they moved in on On, on, on Frank Costello, because they felt that Willie Moretti, who would have protected him, had been removed, [00:26:00] and, and, and that’s when Frank Costello retired and and actually it was Vito Genovese who came in and took control of what had originally been the Lucky Luciano mob, but, but what was also interesting about this guy, Harry Cohn, who was president of Columbia Pictures, is, he was the inventor of the casting couch.
Virtually any woman who starred in a movie at Columbia Pictures had to sleep with Harry Cohn. And if they didn’t, they didn’t get the job. And one of the stars that he brought along and made it was making into a major motion picture star during the time when you had all these beautiful blonde women like Marilyn Monroe and Jane Mansfield and others, Diana Doors, was Kim Novak.
And he put a lot of time and effort into molding her into being a big star. Well, she was going out with Sammy Davis, Jr. at the time. And this was a no for a, in the [00:27:00] 1950s for a white woman to be going out with a black man. And it would have killed the distribution of, of, Her movies in the South, if this became known.
So Harry Cohn told had Mickey Cohn go see Sammy Davis Jr. and tell him that he had to break up with Kim Novak or else, and Sammy wouldn’t do it. So Harry Cohn issued a contract on the life of Sammy Davis. And, and once again, he sent Mickey Cohn out to speak to Davis. And Davis said, you know, you have 48 hours to marry a black woman and never see Kim Novak again.
And to, to reinforce this he sent out two additional gangsters, whose names I don’t remember. They were soldiers in the Drack Jack in the Dragna gang, and they said to Sammy Davis Jr., Look. You’re a one eyed black Jew. And if you don’t give up Kim Novak tomorrow, [00:28:00] you’re going to be a blind black Jew.
And Sammy Davis was terrified and he called Sam Giancana in Chicago because he and Sinatra and Dean Martin were all friends of Giancana and, and had done work for Giancana and Giancana said, well, you know I have no control over what’s going on in Hollywood. You know, if it was Chicago or even Las Vegas, I might be able to help you, but I can’t here.
And, and, and so Sammy Davis broke up with Kim Novak and he married. A black woman who was a singer in a Las Vegas casino. He paid her 25, 000, gave her 10, 000 for a clothing allowance. They stayed married for a few months and then divorced. But what was amazing is the extent that Harry Cohn would go to get his way.
And when he was hated by everyone at Columbia Pictures who worked for him, he was a miserable boss. And, and when he died, they had a big funeral for him at the Columbia [00:29:00] studios and 2000 people showed up and a reporter said to the comedian, Red Skelton, he said why do you think so many people showed up for Harry Cohn’s funeral?
And, and Red Skelton said, When you give people what they want, they’ll come. In other words, I was so happy to see this guy dead. Yeah. And when they asked the rabbi who performed the funeral service at the Harry Cohn Cemetery. It says one word that you would use to describe Harry Cohn. What would you say?
And you said, he’s dead. That’s the best thing you can say about. Well, it’s just, it’s amazing how much the mob preyed on Hollywood and the movie business. It’s just, I mean, we’ve just scratched the surface on how much they preyed on them. Yeah. And the guy who portrayed the Frank Sinatra character. In the Godfather, I think his name was Al Martino.
[00:30:00] Yeah, Al Martino. The director wanted to give that part to, to Vic Dumont, but Al Martino was a, was in with the Bufalino family. And Bufalino went and said, no, you’re going to keep Al Martino in that part or else. And so he stayed in the movie too. Yeah, there’s, there’s a more modern example of the mob influence in in the film industry is right there.
They did a whole film about that and it’s, it’s pretty entertaining. I just did a little short thing about the, the real Luca Bracci. He was really used to be a professional wrestler and he was really an enforcer and a leg breaker for the Colombo family. And this Al Ruddy, the director saw him on set and said, Hey, we need to get that guy in the movie.
Well, you know, when Martin Scorsese made Goodfellas, he used a lot of real gangsters, in that movie as extras, including one of the two mafia cops, Lou Esposito. Yeah. I remember I saw a little [00:31:00] deal on YouTube and then I kind of looked it up where he’s, he’s one of them sitting there when they pan the camera past all the people in the Copacabana, that he’s one of the mobsters.
Right. Anyhow, so, you know, and you got, anything else, any kind of interesting about this that that people maybe didn’t know? That J Johnny Roseli, was w was also an interesting character, and he finally got his up in so to speak he and an entrepreneur started cheating members at the Friars Club in Los Angeles in a card game.
They had put a camera in the ceiling and they had a guy up there with the camera who was telling them the cards that people were holding at these very high stakes poker game and where 100, 000 in a night and, and, and. Johnny Roselli was in for 25 percent of the take, and the FBI finally closed it down, and [00:32:00] Roselli wound up going to prison for that, and one of the ways, and he was worried about being deported back to Italy.
And one of the ways that he got out of being deported back to Italy is he went to work for the CIA. He and Sam Giancana were working for the CIA when they were trying to assassinate Castro. And, and he was called twice to testify at, at Senate hearings. The first one was about the CIA’s involvement in, in trying to assassinate Castro.
And the second one was a committee dealing with the assassination of President Kennedy. And he, before he went to that he, he was assassinated. Johnny Roselli was killed by, by the Chicago mob while he was out on a, on a fishing boat in off the coast of Florida. And they couldn’t fit his body into an [00:33:00] oil drum, so they, they cut off his legs and his arms and, and, and stuffed his body with the, his limbs in, in there.
And they, they had drilled holes in, in the tank so that it would sink. So air wouldn’t form in it but gas is formed in his abdomen, and it caused the oil can to float to the surface and it was found by two fishermen, and that’s how they discovered. Johnny Roselli’s body. And, and it was around the same time that Sam Giancana was also assassinated because he was also called to testify before the same assassination committee about whether the mob was involved in the killing of John Kennedy.
Interesting. Now, Johnny Roselli, it was didn’t he even like produce a picture or he had something, he really had some hands on experience in that and married some kind of minor movie star Right. So He, he, after his, after he [00:34:00] served a term in prison before he served a term in prison, he was very good friends with Harry Cohn and, and, and, and they each wore a friendship ring that the other had given to him.
And when Johnny Roselli got out of prison, he went to see Harry Cohn about getting a job. And Harry Cohn said, I can’t give you a job because I’m not allowed to hire any ex convicts, any felons. And they had a tremendous falling out, where Roselli cursed and yelled at at Harry Cohn, who he thought was his best friend.
And he was he was friends with what was his name, Eddie Foy, who was There had been a group of of actors and vaudeville. People and I think it was Eddie Foy and the Seven Little Foys, and Eddie Foy Jr. was the son, and he was a
I’m sorry, it was Brian Foy. Brian Foy was the son, I just looked it up in the index. Eddie Foy was the father. [00:35:00] Brian Foy was the youngest son, and he became a movie producer. And he was a good friend of Johnny Roselli. And he brought Johnny Roselli in. to help him produce movies. And, and they produced three movies together, kind of film noir classics that, that won a, a, a tremendous number of awards.
And but for some reason, Johnny Roselli wasn’t satisfied doing that, even though he was becoming very successful as, as, as, as a movie producer. He he, he, he, it’s as if he had to be involved in something that was illegal in order to make himself happy. Being a producer just wasn’t going to do it for him.
Yes, I have known guys like that. I asked one of them, I said, dude, you’re smart. You’re, you, you’ve got organizational skills. You, you know, you got enthusiasm and energy. Once you put that into some kind of a regular business, I said, that’s no fun. Thanks. [00:36:00] Exactly. I mean, that’s what these guys were like. You know, if there wasn’t some way to scam someone and do something illegal, their lives were just boring.
It didn’t matter how much money they were making from some legal operation that they owned. It just wasn’t good enough for them. It’s a, it’s a crazy life. And I tell you that those Hollywood producers, they made a lot of money and they were like Bad hogs for the slaughtering or fat geese for the picking.
Yeah, yeah. And one of the other things that I wrote about, I wrote about Robert Evans. who was one of the top Hollywood producers of all times. You know, he produced the Godfather movies. He produced Marathon Man. He produced Love Story and, but he was a cocaine addict. And and he was a a protege of Sidney Korshak.
Who the FBI said was the most powerful lawyer in America, who really worked for the outfit in Chicago. [00:37:00] And when Robert Evans was getting divorced from his, his wife, who, who then married Steve McQueen Steve McQueen wanted to adopt Robert Evans son and change his surname from Evans to McQueen.
And Evans was furious about this. And he went to Sidney Korshak and Korshak went to Steve McQueen and said, you know, you do this and we’re going to kill you. And that’s why we never changed the name from McQueen to Evans, and Steve McQueen was quaking at his boots. I mean, he was terrified. And he went back to Sidney Korshak and he said, everything’s going to be all right.
Please don’t harm me. Please, please, I beg you don’t hurt me. I hate to hear that. Which is so different than his movie image. Y you know, he wasn’t quite the tough guy. It, it that, that he appeared to be in the movies. Yeah. The cool collected guy that wasn’t afraid of anybody that was Ally McGraw is, yes.
Ally Mc, [00:38:00] MC the affair with, on the I think the, I know a lot about Steve McQueen on the set of the getaway, I believe, and Robert Evans supposedly like. Figured this out and, and drove out into the desert wherever they were doing this and caught ’em together in some kind of a, but, but because Robert Evans was a cocaine addict, he, he was fired from his jobs and he couldn’t get any more funding for movies.
And he wanted to produce this movie called The Cotton Club. And he got involved with cocaine dealers and, and cocaine gangsters. And, and, and a couple of people got murdered. His co-producer, a guy named Roy Rayon w was killed. by a woman who, who wanted to be a producer and they kicked her out and, and she wound up hiring two thugs to kill Roy Radin because he wouldn’t give her back her money.
And, and she wound up going to prison for life. And Sidney Korshak was able to keep Robert Evans out of this. He, Robert Evans just walked [00:39:00] away as if, Nothing ever happened to him and he was able to finish producing the movie, though they, they took the movie away from him and he didn’t make any money from it.
But, but it was extraordinary, the power that Sidney Korshak had because of his represent, representation of the mob, and yet they kept that, Away from the general public because Gorshak also represented a number of fortune 500 companies and when he was it was insulted by the woman who owned I forgot the name of the large racetrack in Los Angeles.
He called, he called for a strike on the racetrack and, and, and, and closed it down for a week until the woman apologized to him. And. In 1968, Warren Beatty went to a was at the Democratic Convention in Chicago and couldn’t get a hotel room. And he went into a phone booth, I think it was of the Drake Hotel or the Ambassador East, one of those two hotels.
And he called Sidney Korshak and he asked him if he could help him get a [00:40:00] hotel room. And he asked Warren what hotel he was staying in. calling from and he, and he said, hold on I’ll be back to you in five minutes. And he called and he got back on the phone five minutes later and he said, you can have any one of three suites that I’ve arranged for you in the hotel.
I mean, that’s how powerful he was. And he could get people’s children into Ivy league colleges with a phone call. He could get them a full scholarship with a phone call. He could close down the Brooklyn, the Los Angeles Dodgers for a day if he wanted to. His, his power was just. Extraordinary, and he never tried a case in California, and he wasn’t even licensed to practice law in California, he was licensed to practice law in Chicago.
So, and. His, he would throw a, a Christmas Eve party every year and, and all the great luminaries of Hollywood were invited to it. And if someone wasn’t invited to it, they, they refused to admit it. They would say, well, I had to go into the hospital that day for surgery, [00:41:00] or I was out of the country that day.
And that’s why I couldn’t attend because no one wanted to admit that they hadn’t been invited to a Sidney Korshak Christmas Eve party. Wow. He was the guy that, that bridged that gap that, that greased all the wheels between the mob, whether it be back East or Chicago, primarily Chicago and the film industry, wasn’t he?
Yeah. Oh, there was one to tell you that, that when Willie Beoff was extorting the movie studios, he went to, he would, each one had to pay him 25, 000. I think it was a month or every few months. And he went to Harry Cohn at Columbia pictures And he said, I want 25, 000 from you. And, and Harry said, I’m not going to pay you.
And Harry Cohn then called Johnny Roselli, who was still his friend. And Roselli called back to the bosses in Chicago and the bosses said, Harry doesn’t have to pay anything. He’s one of us. And you tell that to Willie and tell [00:42:00] Willie to leave him alone or else. And, and, and, and, and also tell Willie that he has to go and apologize to Harry Cone.
And Willie, who’s this really nasty guy went to apologize to Harry Cone and Harry Cone just said, get the hell out of my office. I’m not interested. And Willie Cone kind of left like a dog with his tail between his legs. Which was so unusual for a man who, who was so nasty and tough as Willie Boff was.
And, and, and Willie Boff, he testified against the outfit during the trial that that also sent Paul Rika and Frank Knitty well, Frank Nitti committed suicide but St. Paul Rica and, and, and, and others to prison. He testified secretly to the FBI. And he served a much shorter term than the others did, but they learned about it afterwards and, and really be off moved to Phoenix, Arizona, where he changed his name to Willie Nelson, the same as the center.
And [00:43:00] became a good friend of Barry Goldwater and went into business with Barry Goldwater’s nephew. And, but he was, he was a. A compulsive gambler and he would go to Las Vegas, even though he was hiding out in Phoenix under an assumed name. He foolishly went to Las Vegas to gamble, and there he was recognized by members of the outfit, and they reported back.
To him to the bosses. And one day Willie Beoff got into his pickup truck and turned the ignition key and blew himself in, in, in, into a thousand pieces. And but oddly enough, one of the, the pallbearer. At his funeral was was Senator Barry Goldwater. Interesting. I’ll tell you what, this, you just went across this whole span of politicians, legitimate businessmen, [00:44:00] lawyers the film industry and the upper echelons of the mobs, both East Coast and Chicago and, and Los Angeles.
It’s just, it’s wild, isn’t it? It was fascinating to me. And, you know, the thing that got me going across all this initially was Bugsy Siegel, because Bugsy Siegel started out with the New York Mob, and then he went to Los Angeles, and then he went to Las Vegas. And so when I wrote about him in Big Apple Gangsters, I learned more about him in Las Vegas and Los Angeles.
And then when I wrote about him in, The Las Vegas book, I learned more about him in Los Angeles, so he was sort of a thread that ran through all these different areas. And like you said, you described him, he was the kind of guy who was, who didn’t appear as a gangster. He didn’t present as we call it today as a gangster and he was smooth and attractive and, you know, it would be hard to believe that he was a gangster until he was.
That’s right. I mean, I mean, you know, there were pictures [00:45:00] of him at parties with Cary Grant with, with, with others. And He, he also used to throw these parties where all the famous movie stars would go. And it was interesting because Jimmy Stewart turned him down and said he wouldn’t go to a Bugsy Siegel party because Bugsy Siegel was nothing but a gangster and he didn’t want anything to do with him.
And when Bugsy Siegel heard this, he confronted Jimmy Stewart and he Bugsy was with George Raft at the time. And Jimmy Stuart said, you know, anytime you want to make something out of this, I’ll step outside with you. And George Raft said to Jimmy Stewart, he said, you don’t want to step outside with, with Bugsy Siegel, because it’ll be the last time you’ll ever step outside any place.
He said, I would just forget it if I were you. And, and, and, and, and, and that was the end of it. Interesting. Well, Jimmy Stewart, he was a guy, he went into the World War II, was a bomber pilot in World War II, one of the most dangerous [00:46:00] jobs you could have over there, too. Yeah, I mean, he was a pretty brave guy.
You know, he flew these bombing missions over Germany during World War II in the 8th Air Force. Yeah, it’s it was at a high casually latent rate and those guys all knew it. Well, Jeffrey Sussman, this has been great. This is a, this is a book guys. You got to get this book at Tinseltown gangsters and big apple gangsters and the the rise and fall of the mafia in Las Vegas.
I mean, you, you get the whole country from one end to the other with these three books here. Thank you very much, Gary. All right. Well, good to have you on again. Good to see you again, Jeffrey. Haven’t seen you for a while, but we’ll, I know you’re working on anything now. What are you working on now? I am.
I’m working on a book called Backbeat Gangsters, the rise and decline of the mob and rock music. Ah, that’s a good one. I just was talking about that on the show the other day the Morris Levy and that roulette records and that thing. Yeah. I have a whole chapter about those. [00:47:00] Oh my God. That guy, he was a monster.
He was a mobster that started a record company. He truly was a mobster and he, he ripped off everybody. Yeah. And you know, he, he, he partnered with What’s his name from the Genovese crime family? Oh, yeah. Gigante. Yeah. Gigante. Carmine Gigante. Yeah, he did. That’s what I was, I was looking into was Gigante and reading up on Morris Levy.
So great. Great stuff, Jeffrey. Thanks a lot for coming on. And once again, guys, look at, click on that link and see Jeffrey’s book on books on Amazon. So thanks a lot, guys. Don’t forget. I like to ride motorcycles when you’re out there on the street. So watch out for motorcycles. If you have a problem with PTSD and you’ve been in the service, go to the VA website and get that hotline number and hand in hand with.
PTSD is drugs and alcohol addiction. And whether you’ve been in the service or not former Gambino soldier, Anthony [00:48:00] Ruggiano has a hotline number on his website and he is a drug and alcohol counselor down in Florida. So you can have a real deal. Bob guy, be your, your drug and alcohol counselor if you wanted to do that.
And don’t forget to like, and subscribe. And share this with your friends and on your social media pages and all those kinds of things. And, and just remember guys, I really appreciate y’all listening in. Thanks a lot.
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April 18, 2024 Chicago Cigarette Theft Foiled
In this episode, we delve into a fascinating tale from the 1950s in Blue Island, Chicago, where Alfred Konecki, the president of F.W. Konecki & Sons Company, a tobacco distribution business, encountered suspicious activity involving a truck from Unity Refrigeration following their delivery vehicles. Two detectives, Bernard Kennedy and George Hanecki, were assigned to investigate the situation, setting up surveillance and observing a complex series of vehicles tailing each other.
The detectives uncovered that the Unity Refrigeration Truck was being followed by a car driven by Robert Bradshaw, a salesman for the Kodaki Company, who claimed he was trailing the Unity truck due to suspicions about its activities. Upon halting the vehicles, the officers discovered familiar faces inside the Unity truck – Chicago Outfit Associate Frank Schweihs, Stanley Bajic and Sam Ciancio, armed with .38 caliber revolvers and a police scanner tuned to Chicago PD frequencies.
Despite the lack of a solid case against them, the officers interrogated the trio, sending a clear message regarding their monitoring of criminal activities. This incident highlights the organized crime presence in Chicago during that era and the tactics employed to protect businesses from theft and extortion. The narrative offers a glimpse into the early days of Frank Schweihs, who would later play a significant role in criminal activities, including extorting money from establishments.
The story underscores the challenges businesses face dealing with criminal interference and the intricate dynamics of law enforcement and organized crime in Chicago in the 1950s. It provides a window into a bygone era where local authorities often struggled to combat such activities, leaving individuals to navigate complex relationships with criminal elements. The intricacies of mob involvement in businesses and the strategies employed to mitigate threats offer a compelling perspective on the historical landscape of organized crime in major cities like Chicago.
Transcript
Introduction
[0:00]So, wiretappers, we’re going to go to the little town, our little community
of Blue Island in southwest Chicago.
It’s down by, it’s north of Chicago Heights, a little bit west and north of
Calumet City, south and west of downtown, like I said, right off of, looks like I-57.
We’re going to look in at 131-36 Southwestern Avenue in Blue Island.
Will find Alfred Konecki.
He was the president of F.W. Konecki & Sons Company, which was a tobacco distribution company.
They would take packages, you know, cartons and cases of cigarettes around for
distribution to different places.
A couple of his drivers reported that they had noticed a truck.
[0:46]Kind of a van kind of a truck, marked Unity Refrigeration had been following
their delivery vehicles around.
[0:52]And they’d looked out, and that truck was parked near the Konecki garage at that time.
So Mr. Konecki calls Chicago PD, and they assign a couple of detectives to come out and investigate.
Detective Bernard Kennedy and George Hanecki, kind of a close name to Konecki,
[1:12]
Surveillance Operation
[1:09]but I guess another one of those big, long German names.
After the detectives respond, they set up a surveillance down the street,
and they must have called Mr.
Konecki by phone and let him know that they were set, because he then dispatched
one of the trucks. One of his employees, an Elmer Jepson, left.
As soon as Mr. Jepson left in the delivery truck, the Unity Refrigeration Truck
pulled out and started following it north and kept following it north and north
and went up to 87th Street.
And about that time, the detectives noticed that a passenger car was also following
the Unity Refrigeration Truck.
So there was a triple surveillance going on here, double surveillance.
They didn’t know what it is. So the first thing they did was stop the car that
was following the Unity refrigeration truck.
They found it was driven by Robert Bradshaw, a salesman for the Kodaki Company,
and he had already stopped.
He had picked up a traffic patrolman somewhere along the way.
He claimed he was following the delivery truck and behind the Unity refrigeration
truck because he had learned of this suspicious truck following their truck.
It gets kind of confusing, doesn’t it?
[2:16]
Triple Surveillance
[2:17]The detectives eventually let them go right away, and once they got them identified,
when they caught up with the Unity refrigeration truck, which was still following
the Konecki delivery truck, they were at 79th Street and Washtenaw Avenue.
When they pulled over the Unity refrigeration truck, they approached it in the
usual way, guns drawn, one officer on the passenger side and one officer on
the driver’s side, and ordered the three occupants out.
And guess who they found inside that truck? But our old friend,
Chicago Outfit Associate, this is early in his career, Frank Schweihs.
He was 22 years old at the time.
Newspaper reported he was living at 522 West 29th Street.
I’m not sure where that is. You Chicago guys might even live in that neighborhood
and want to drive by and see if it’s still there. Early address on Frank Schweihs.
Stanley Bajic, who was 30 years old, lived at 3755 Admiral Avenue.
He was an ex-con also. and a SAM-CNCO, 26 years old, of 6843 South Wood Street.
They had absolutely no explanation for what they were doing.
The officers checked the inside of the truck.
They found two .38 caliber revolvers, and they found a police scanner that was tuned to Chicago PD.
[3:39]
Interrogation of Suspects
[3:33]Frequencies so they could monitor the police frequencies. Took them in and interrogated them.
If you want to check Mike Byrne’s Facebook page, The Chicago Outfit,
old and current news articles, you’ll find the original article in here.
There’s a pretty good picture of Stanley Bojic, Sam CSEO, and Frank Schweihs being
questioned by a Lieutenant, Lieutenant Frank O’Sullivan of the Detective Bureau.
Of course, they really didn’t have a case on them, but they did send a message
that, Yeah, we know who you are, and you probably better leave Alfred Koenigke’s
tobacco distribution alone.
This is Chicago.
More than likely, somebody then came back around to Mr.
Koenigke and said, Hey, I understand you’re having problems with people stealing
from your trucks. Well, yeah, so what?
Well, you know, we can handle that. You know, these are just young guys.
We can take care of these guys. You know, just a couple of C-notes a week,
and hey, we can handle these guys. You won’t have any more trouble.
That’s how they do business in Chicago many times, and that was back in 1954.
And everybody in every major city in the United States, if they somehow rubbed
up against the mob, that’s how they had to do business.
You could not depend on local police. The FBI was not interested.
This actually happened in 1954, March the 24th.
[4:58]
Conclusion and Reflections
[4:58]Bar Tappers, I hope you enjoyed that little story. It’s a little story about
hijacking cigarette trucks in the 50s by the Chicago Outfit and the very early
career of Frank Schweihs, who would go on to become a feared killer and a very important guy.
He’s the guy that extorted money from the porn shops that Red Womet talks about in his book.
So I suggest that you Google Red Womet, W-E-M-E-T-T-E.
You can find out firsthand knowledge about Frank Schweihs.
So if you have a loved one or a family member or friend that has a problem with
drugs or alcohol, make your first call a first call.
Call 816-361-5900 or go to their website, www.firstcallkc.org.
And if you want to support this podcast, please, please use your Venmo app.
Buy me a cup of Starbucks every once in a while or go to my website,
www.ganglandwire.com.
Go to the shop page, make a donation through PayPal or with your credit card.
You can become a regular subscriber to it or you can buy my book or you can
buy my movie good night folks.
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7min
April 15, 2024 The Brilab Affair: Marcello’s Web of Corruption
Retired Intelligence Detective Gary Jenkins brings you the best in mob history with his unique perception of the mafia. In this episode, Gary tells the story of Brilab (Bribery Labor), which initially aimed to uncover corruption in Louisiana and Texas and led to the indictment of New Orleans Mafia boss Carlos Marcello.
Marcello, the kingpin of organized crime in the South, controlled operations across Louisiana, Texas, and Tampa, with significant influence over local officials.
Joseph Hauser, an insurance salesman turned FBI informant, arranged a meeting between Marcello and undercover agents and proposed kickbacks for insurance contracts.
Marcello agreed to use his influence to secure insurance contracts for the agents but demanded kickbacks in return.
Louisiana State Commissioner Charles Romer accepted bribes to facilitate state insurance contracts but claimed the money was a campaign contribution, resulting in minimal charges.
Marcello also expressed interest in gaining control over the Teamsters’ health and welfare insurance funds, citing the illness of Teamsters’ leader Frank Fitzsimmons as an opportunity to make this move.
Marcello offered to secure Teamsters insurance contracts in exchange for a $2 million cash deposit in a safety deposit box under a fictitious name.
Marcello’s involvement in Brilab highlighted his influence over officials and his ambitions to expand his criminal enterprises. The case revealed the extent of government corruption and the reach of organized crime in the United States during the late 1970s. Despite Marcello’s efforts, his plans to control the Teamsters’ insurance business were thwarted by law enforcement actions and the eventual downfall of critical players like Alan Dorfman.
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Transcript
[00:00:00] Well, hey guys, welcome all you wiretappers back here in the studio of Gangland Wire. This is Gary Jenkins, retired KCPD intelligence detective, now turned podcaster and documentary filmmaker and author of books—or of one book, anyway—about the Las Vegas skim. But enough of that. I stumbled into a story. A friend of mine sent some old FBI files.
That had to do with Abscam that he found doing some research he was doing. And it had an interesting story in it. Then there was a, I think it was a life magazine article that interpreted some of these files and, and it made it a little easier to research the story and write some script that I could explain it to you.
Cause it’s about Abscam, and it’s about Brilab, and it’s about. My porn. Now, those were three really famous stings that the FBI did back in the 1970s and [00:01:00] 80s, and there’s a lot of controversy about them. A lot of, , there’s even some congressional hearings about the FBI and doing these reverse or these stings and Anyhow, but the title of my story today is how a leak prevented the FBI from recording a meeting of the Mafia Commission down in New Orleans during Mardi Gras times.
Now speaking of missed opportunities during the casino skimming investigations, here in Kansas City we had a wire up. It was on a lawyer’s office and they picked up Nick Civella talking to his, brother or his nephew. George Chiavola, who was a Chicago police officer who had been carrying some of the skim money back and forth between Kansas city and Chicago.
And, and he had Mr. Chiavola set up a meeting between himself, Nick Savala, our boss and his brother Cork to meet with Joey Aiuppa and Joey Aiuppa brought Jackie Cerone to this meeting. [00:02:00] The meeting did come off and we listened to him or the FBI listened to him at the time, planned it, figured out where it was going to be, probably what room it was going to be in, and why it was in that room.
He told his nephew to get some Lambrusco wine and some antipasto and set up a nice table for IUPA. And it was really an interesting lesson to him, plan this meeting, that that was all in Sicilian. So we listened to it in Sicilian. I’ve listened to it in Sicilian, but then I’ve got a transcript that explains, you know, what was with the interpretation of it, translation of it.
So the FBI finds out about this meeting and they, the address of Shia Bola’s relatives, it was a three-story brownstone up there, kind of by Wrigley Field, I believe. And they put some microphones in a second-floor den that probably that’s where Nick was telling him to set up this meeting when Iupa arrives, which he does arrive.
Shiavola sends his son out, [00:03:00] who’s also a Chicago policeman, and tells him to sweep the streets, and they call back and forth. Streets been swept? Anything, problem out there? Didn’t see any problem. He said, okay, call them up wherever they are. They’re hiding somewhere up the block, or a couple, three blocks away.
Send them on down. So they go on down, and,, so there were no pictures of this because you couldn’t get in close, but they were listening to it on the phone. They had this bug in there, and there’s a chance to listen to the head of the Kansas City mafia and the head of the Chicago outfit discuss business.
And, Nick was going to discuss Kansas City, putting together a package of straw men, if you will, to buy out Alan Glick out of the stardust. It turns out that they didn’t get it done, but when Aiuppa arrived, he refused to walk up the stairs to the second floor because he had a bad heart. So they sit down the first floor and the FBI missed a chance to record this meeting between these two bosses.
It would have been historic because they probably got into [00:04:00] other things. So, you know, say lovey. But this story here, the missed opportunity to record a meeting of the Mafia Commission down in New Orleans, is an exciting, little-known story. It starts off with a long-time Washington lobbyist named Isaac Irving Davidson.
He’s been around forever, and that’s all he’s ever done. He knows everybody, every mover and shaker. He’s from up in the Northeast. But interestingly, he was a close friend of the New Orleans mob boss, Carlos Marcello. Marcello even used to call him. They picked this up on some kind of a wire, Uncle Snookum’s.
And through his many business deals, Davidson had had some dealings with a Los Angeles based insurance operator and convicted swindler named Joseph Hauser. Mr. Hauser went to Davidson and got an introduction to Carlos Marcello. He wanted to do some business down in New Orleans. He’d been out in Los Angeles, wants to do business in New Orleans, and he gets [00:05:00] his connect with Carlos Marcello and, and which ends up in Hauser getting access to all kinds of insurance business from the building trade union off the bat, some lucrative contracts with the local teamster’s unions and longshoremen unions down in New Orleans.
He leveraged this business through his insurance company that he purchased in New Orleans and Carlos Marcello setting this insurance company up, getting all these nice contracts. By the end of 1978, actually, this was 76. By the end of 78, he had been going for a couple of years, but Houser was in trouble again.
I said, he’s a swindler. These guys, even though they could do business right and make money, they don’t. The SEC got onto him because of some shenanigans he was doing. He placed his company under receivership because they had discovered some irregularities. I don’t know exactly what they were. It’s probably not really important, but what is important that.
He and this Mr. Davidson were indicted for federal racketeering [00:06:00] charges in February 1979. Hauser went ahead and pled guilty, and he had to pay off a hefty fine and he was going to have to do some prison time. That’s when the FBI—you know, they were probably watching all this—pounced and turned him into a cooperating witness.
And they wanted to start this ambitious sting operation because they had these other two stings going on at the time. This was a thing for the FBI. They called it Brilab. B R I L A B. You may have heard of BriLab. And this, these other stings going on were Abscam and MyPorn were the two big ones that made some headlines.
Now, Abscam, if you remember, that was one where the agents were opposing as an Arab sheik, willing to bribe New Jersey politicians. They wanted to open up some casinos in New Jersey, and that’s where the famous saying that was, was on the, there’s a lot of videos out there of, at the time that got leaked of New Jersey politicians taking money directly from this Arab in full headdress.
And the saying was Bush money [00:07:00] walks. The saying was money talks and bullshit walks. So that probably reminds you about abscan. They did a movie about this too. My porn, Miami porn pornography. That was a sting where some agents set up a pornography distribution company in Miami and started buying porn from mob connection, connected distributors all over the country.
This was one interesting thing about this was one of the agents that got involved with this. Got caught shoplifting like a couple of years later and kind of, it really damaged any testimony that he was able to give, you know, the claim was that he got so into this criminal lifestyle working, you know, deep cover, undercover 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
But he didn’t know right from wrong anymore. Sting ended in 1980 and took down some of the largest porn distributors in the United States and several high-ranking members of the mafia. I don’t need to go into all that. I don’t want to confuse you with too many details because we’re discussing Brilab and Carlos Marcello.
Brilab or [00:08:00] bribery labor, and it started out as a way to uncover official corruption in Louisiana and Texas and ended up with the indictment of Mafia boss in New Orleans, Carlos Marcello. One of the more exciting aspects of Brilab was never made public back then. And these involved the dealings, of course, with the pudgy grain, Carlos, little man, Marcello, and he was about 70 at the time.
And as I said before, he was the king of organized crime in New Orleans and all over the South. He, Trafficante had, Trafficante had Tampa. There was a kind of a boss up in Texas and Dallas. But Marcello ran everything down in the South there. And he needed. Check with him before you do anything.
This guy had talked about Joseph Hauser, insurance company owner and insurance salesman, Swindler, and the FBI turned him. So he sets up a meeting with these agents and Carlos Marcello. He claimed that these were guys he knew from [00:09:00] California. He’d done business with them out in California. And, now he’s down in New Orleans, of course and, and they all make him a pitch to give him kickbacks for any insurance business that Marcello can direct their way.
Well, the little man Marcello said, you know, I like you guys. And there are certain office holders in Texas and Louisiana that I can probably persuade to help. View and getting insurance contracts covering different state and municipal employees. Of course, you know, you’re going to get a fee. You’re going to have to give me something.
No problem. They were steered to a Louisiana state commissioner named Charles Romer. This proved to be a pretty worthwhile contact because Mr. Romer was responsible for the day to day operations of all the Louisiana state government. And he was recorded agreeing to accept a 4, 300 a month. Payment in return for helping these so called insurance salesmen get a state insurance contract.
According to the [00:10:00] tapes and to the testimony he accepted, Mr. Romer, 1979 accepted two payments amounting to 25, 000. And when they had the trial, you know, this was the bribe money. Well, in a kind of a crazy turn of events at trial, Mr. Romer said that, yeah, I did take that money. I was part of a kind of a bribery plan, but I didn’t do anything for them.
I didn’t do anything illegal for them. I just took a campaign contribution for a gubernatorial candidate, a guy named Edgar Mouton, that he was actually was the, the election committee chairman at the time. And he ended up being convicted only of some minimal charges. He was not convicted of the big charges in this.
It’s a pretty good defense. Now, in that initial meeting with the FBI agency, I also recorded Marcello claiming that he could deliver, other than state contracts, he said, that’s nothing compared to the millions of dollars that could be drawn [00:11:00] from the huge Teamsters health and welfare insurance funds.
Now remember, this is 1979. Hoffa’s disappeared in 1975. Somebody else has run the Frank Fitzsimmons has run the, Teamsters union. They wanted to keep him in. I’ve said that before. They really wanted Hoffa gone and not to take Fitzsimmons out because Fitz was an easy guy for the mob to deal with. It was a pushover for them.
He just wanted to go play golf. He was sick also. And he just wasn’t paying attention to any business. Marcello claimed that. Fitzsimmons was too ill to block any change if they wanted to get some of the national insurance business with the teamsters and gotten some local business down there in new Orleans.
Agents ask him about, well, what about Alan Dorfman? He’s, you know, his Amalgamated Insurance company. He’s got all the contracts with the teamsters and Marcello claimed. Remember this is, , this is 79. And Alan Dorfman is going to get killed a few years later, but he claims in 79, well, we own the [00:12:00] Teamsters and Dorfman is going to be leaving.
But if you remember, that would be easy to predict because at this point in time, 1979, the Las Vegas loans approved by Dorfman and the Midwest mob families that were involved had been exposed. The FBI served search warrants on my buses in Kansas City, which I was part of in Chicago, Milwaukee, and Cleveland, some people in Las Vegas, Alan Dorfman’s office and teams, and other team shares.
They’d seen all the, you know, the affidavits for probable cause and all that. So they knew what was going on. I knew it was all falling down on. They knew that the FBI had something I think Marcello saw this too, and he saw that as his opportunity to make this little incursion into the Teamsters piggy bank and him to get some influence and get some, some of that candy out of that piggy bank or that cookie jar, shall we say, and get a big cookie out of that Teamsters cookie jar known as the Health and Welfare Pension Fund, [00:13:00] They taped this deal offered by Marcello and he agreed to use his influence within the Teamsters to get a big cut of the union’s insurance business, like I said, but in return, they had to deposit 2 million in cash in a safety deposit box, which was going to be rented under a fictitious name.
Once they did that, and he could show that they could show that they did that, and he would guarantee that they could take over the teamsters insurance business. Alan Dorfman was out. Alan Dorfman had many legal problems during these years. I mentioned about the skimming and the teamsters loan, but he also was caught on tape conspiring to bribe Nevada Senator Howard Cannon along with Joey Lombardo.
And so he had a case pending on that. He’s going to be murdered a couple of years later in 1983. The deal of this, of this magnitude, requires the approval of the Mafia’s commission, particularly Chicago. Because Chicago, you know, this has been their baby a deal was made. They were going to [00:14:00] have a commission meeting in New Orleans during Mardi Gras in 1980.
I believe This would have been my bosses’ most important meeting since the famous Appalachian meeting in 1957. Chicago and New Orleans families supposedly, before they met, had agreed on how to cut up this 2 million payoff to switch to Teamsters insurance. But another topic, according to these reports, another topic was how to recover any kind of dominance by the mob and the international narcotics traffic, because by the 80s, the cocaine is flooding in, the Colombians are making all the money, and you know, the mob guys are making money, but There’s more money to be made out there and they’re not in control of it.
And, you know, the future will be the, with the Sicilians and they controlled a lot, but slowly, but surely they went down on the pizza connection and the Colombians and now Mexicans have [00:15:00] just. Totally taken over the narcotics business. If there’s any mob guys involved with it, they’re working under Sicilians, Sicilians, they’re working under Columbians or Mexicans.
They’re just buying from them. They have no influence down there. The FBI, of course, was hoping that they could pick up all this discussion with microphones and they planted a bunch getting ready for it because Marcello was going to be the host. And they had some ideas about where it would be.
Well, remember I talked about Abscam and Brilab. Before this meeting, this is Bri lab. We go back to ab scam. Somebody during this time, 80s at 79 or 80 has leaked the details of the app scam staying out and the FBI had to cut it short, start serving warrants, making arrests prematurely. And actually they were getting ready to do that, but they wanted to do it on the down low.
But Abscam, because some agents were really mad. [00:16:00] They said it was coming down too early. Abscam blew up in the headlines because somebody leaked it. And the mafia said, Hey, you know, what’s going on? Who, you know, why are we here? Who we’ve been dealing with? And they called this meeting off and started taking a closer look at who they’d been dealing with.
And I think probably then they knew they were been dealing with some Peckerwoods, two of whom were. Rather unknown. And the other one, you know, again, he was an outsider. Remember how’s there was an outsider too.
As well as the agents were, of course,
this, some of these wire taps they’d had had really been paying off. The one they had on this Irving Davidson, who was a longtime public relations man and lobbyist in the Capitol and was a friend of Marcello’s called him uncles or Marcello called him Uncle Snookum’s FBI taps it over Davidson regularly calling some low-level assistance to, aides of then-president Jimmy Carter discussing his client’s problems.
So he had a Had some [00:17:00] pipelines into some pretty highly placed people in, in Washington, D. C.
Now, why, why was this get leaked? I just speculated a little bit. Was there a bad agent? Was there a bad prosecutor? Was it a mistake? Well, according to what I read and according to some Justice Department sources, some of the, as I said before, some of the key agents involved with the New York, New Jersey area, part of Ab Scam, , it was kind of down in Florida and then New Jersey and they were working their way up into New York with this phony sheik and trying to bribe politicians.
Somebody was wanting to take it down and these agents were mad. They said, that’s premature. So, but they went ahead and took it down and shut it down. And that’s when somebody started leaking this information out. , they leaked it out because they were afraid that, you know, if they take this down in secret, then the next thing, you know, those cases will just disappear into the bowels of the department of justice.
And there’ll [00:18:00] be some high-level coverup. Cause they had a bunch of politicians. I believe there were democratic politicians at a democratic administration at the time. So, you know that was their fear. And that’s why they started leaking it like crazy. Cause they wanted the ad scam, those dramatic.
Videos and that dramatic language of these politicians is blatantly taking money from an Arab sheik. They want that out on the public record so that cannot be swept under the rug. I went ahead and closed down my porn also at the same time. And that was kind of the end of these big ambitious FBI stings.
, all the defendants in all these cases appeal to convictions on charges of entrapment. Congress even held meetings on the use of these stings and trying to entrap people that may or may not have been predisposed to, if you hadn’t offered them a whole lot of money, maybe they wouldn’t have gone out looking for the money.
It’s always kind of a deal, you know, on whether you entrap somebody or whether they were predisposed to [00:19:00] To take money as an official bribe, anyhow, but that’s the story of ab scam, Carlos Marcello, and how some loose lips sunk this ship. And
How the FBI missed an opportunity to record a meeting of the mafia commission down in. New Orleans during Mardi Gras about 1980, I believe, anyhow. Thanks a lot, guys. I just thought it was an interesting little story that you would, you would like and enjoy and enlighten you about this BriLab thing and kind of what was going on, why they did it.
These other stings that were going on, the ab scam and my porn. Each one of them is a story in itself. Each one of them has mafia people involved, organized crime people involved. Anytime there’s politicians, dirty politicians out here. Casinos and pornography and any kind of gray area business or totally illegal business, then the mafia is going to be somewhere involved in around it and in our history [00:20:00] and probably today, but everything’s legal today.
So I don’t know what the mob has to do today. And yeah, thanks a lot, guys. Don’t forget. I like to ride motorcycles, so watch out for motorcycles when you’re out there. If you have a problem with, PTSD and you’ve been in the service, be sure and go to the, VA website and get that hotline number.
There’s help available and drugs and alcohol addiction of those really go hand in hand with PTSD. And if you have a problem with that, maybe you can get that help at the VA. If you’ve been in the service, you probably can, but if you haven’t, our friend, former Gambino soldier Anthony Ruggiano, is a drug and alcohol counselor down in Florida.
Plus he has a hotline on his website. So go find anthonyruggiano. com or, or he’s got a YouTube page. Anyhow, get hold of him and get some help for yourself. And let me know if you ever do that. I’d be really interested to see how that worked for you so thanks a lot, guys. Don’t forget to like and subscribe.
And keep coming back and give me a [00:21:00] review on, Apple. If you can figure out how to do that and tell your friends about it, share it on your social media, more viewers we get, and the more listeners we get, the better I like it. Thanks a lot, guys.
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25min
April 08, 2024 Jimmy “The Bomber” Cataura
Retired Intelligence Detective Gary Jenkins brings you the best in mob history with his unique perception of the mafia. In this episode, Gary and his guest, Camillus “Cam” Robinson, talk about the turbulent life of Jimmy the Bomber Cataura, a figure whose name became synonymous with Chicago’s underworld. Known as Jimmy the Bomber,” Jimmy Cataura’s story is a complex web of crime, suspicion, and intrigue. In 1952, Jimmy the Bomber surfaced in the newspapers concerning bombings in the Chicago area. Two Teamsters Union officials’ homes and a gasoline station where employees had refused to join the union were targeted. Despite being questioned, Jimmy couldn’t be linked to the bombings and was instead charged with disorderly conduct.
Over the years, Jimmy’s alleged involvement in criminal activities continued to escalate. In 1967, he was linked to a murder investigation, but no charges were filed. 1972, Jimmy was among the men arrested on fraud and loan shark charges. The men had set up a fraudulent corporation that charged fees for financing loans totaling over one million dollars. Despite these brushes with the law, Jimmy the Bomber evaded conviction. A federal grand jury next indicted him for transporting a stolen vehicle across state lines, but the outcome of this case remains unknown.
Jimmy’s reputation within the criminal underworld grew as the years went by. Jimmy the Bomber was rumored to be involved in various criminal activities, including stealing and selling stolen auto parts. However, his criminal empire began to crumble in the late 1970s as rival factions within the Chicago Outfit vied to control his chop shop rackets. South Side Boss Frank LaPorte died, and Al Pilotto took over. The new power wanted a piece of this chop shop racket.
In 1978, Jimmy’s life came to a violent end when he was gunned down while sitting in his car. His death marked the end of an era, leaving behind a legacy of crime and intrigue that fascinates today. Join us as we unravel the life of Jimmy the Bomber Cataara, a man whose name became synonymous with Chicago’s criminal underworld.
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Subscribe to get new gangster stories every week.
Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire
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Transcript
[00:00:00] Hey, welcome all you wiretappers. Good to be back here in the studio of gangland wire. I’ve got my good friend, Camillus Robinson, cam Robinson. Welcome cam. Good to see you. I haven’t talked to you for a while. Hey Gary. I can’t tell you how much it it means to me to be back and be back in the the studio with you.
It’s such a, such a great time. And I’m glad to be here and I’m really excited about today’s show. Really good. Yeah, we’re going to do Jimmy the Bomb Jimmy “The Bomber” Catuara. Is that how you pronounce that, Cam? ? Catuara, yeah. Catuara? Okay. That’s how I would say, yes. You know, you know how everybody laughs about how I drag out my bowels up here.
Not as bad, much as they laugh about me. Right. One guy said, well, that hillbilly Tw that guy’s, God, he said, man, he, he can’t be telling me about the mafia. . I had to get everybody to to help me out with Joey. I Joey Aiuppa Yeah, you can’t do that. And I, and I do. I’ve got no, I am Italian. I’ve got no excuse.
Yeah. See, I’m full excuse anyhow, we’re going to talk about Jimmy the Bomber Couture, you know, and, and Cam, [00:01:00] he came over as a child, I believe from Sicily. Now, if I’m wrong on that, let me know guys, but it, it looks like he was naturalized after he got here, but probably as a young man or a child you know, he, he got married, had a couple of kids and, and, and we’re talking about the, the twenties.
By 1929, he’s, he is in his early 20s, I believe, and, you know, the stock market crashes and, and he’s a young guy, got a couple of kids trying to scuffle out a living and kind of interesting note I found on that when the stock market crashed, banks weren’t lending out money. And you know what happened when the banks quit lending out money?
That’s when the loan shark business started. I never put that together before. Did you, Cam? Do you ever think about that? You know, I didn’t in that, in that capacity, it’s, it’s interesting how there was such a conglomeration of so many different things that went into in that time period, like you said, the banks collapsed, the alcohol became illegal, all the immigrants started [00:02:00] pouring into the country.
And that, that confluence of different things really is, is what, what blew up, what we came to. That was, is the mafia, you know, it was all, it was just the perfect storm that led to all these rackets that blew up. I mean, it really was the time and the place to start an organized crime empire. Really? And, and, you know, loan sharking, if you think about it, it had all those Sicilian immigrants and, and the banks were all ran by the English and the Germans, and they’re not going to loan anything to new newly arrived immigrant.
Plus the immigrant can’t read the paperwork and probably can’t speak the language. So, you know, the loan sharking business, you know, was going to come up. It was really interesting. And with, with bootlegging and a variety of other things, of course, there were some narcotics business going on at the time coming out of.
Cuba going up through the Midwest and, and, and in New York, and that was all by the mafia. So, you know, it was, it was a perfect storm for that. You know, he ends up being, you know, they list him in the sentence census [00:03:00] in the 1930 census as a presser and a trailer shop, tailor shop. But pretty few years later, he’s a retail meat market.
then he’s an inmate in the Illinois State Penitentiary during this time. So he’s a real renaissance man, is a renaissance man, the man for all seasons. The census did indicate he had completed the fourth grade. So he wasn’t like most of these guys, you know, they didn’t go, if they went to high school, that was back then, especially hardly anybody went to high school, unless you were of a certain class, all the working class kids, you went to eighth grade, ninth grade, and then you were on, you were working.
So that’s what he did, but he was maybe not a you know, a genius scholar, a Rhodes scholar or anything like that, but he learned the streets and he learned it from a guy, which is interesting, a guy named James Bellacastro, who was known as the king of bombers. So he learned from the king of [00:04:00] bombers and he will eventually become known as the.
Jimmy the Bomber Catuara. So go figure that man. That’s right. And Belcastro was a big deal. There were a couple of guys who, who came after Belcastro who, who took that name, the bomber, but you know, they, he had a whole string of bombers that came after Belcastro. Matter of fact, one of his early arrests was he and a guy named William Palermo were apprehended with a bomb and that was in 1933.
He even got a little description of it. He had seven sticks of dynamite and they were getting ready to go to trial and the defense would contend that the bomb was planted on them by the cops, which is, you know, I’m not sure how that works, but I guess, you know, I guess they were you know, it’d be possible they’d try to shake them down or something.
Those same cops would testify that he had offered him a thousand dollar bribe while he was at the police station. So he was doing pretty good early on. Thousand dollars. Yeah, that’s a lot of damn money in [00:05:00] 1933. Jesus, I don’t know how, I don’t know how you could resist that in 1933. I couldn’t, I couldn’t bribe a cop for 1, 000 tomorrow.
They charge you with attempted bribery and he ended up getting five to 25 years. I never understood those indeterminate sentences, but I think it’s, I think it is to, to keep. people, keep them better prisoners because they’ve got a chance of maybe getting out because you have this indeterminate sentence.
So, you know, you could be a good prisoner and then have a chance at getting out early because, you know, there’s not a locked in time that you have to stay there, wouldn’t you say? Would you hazard a guess on that? That makes really good sense that I hadn’t thought about it. I’ve seen those sentences before, you know, in the reading that you and I do a lot and I never really got it.
I thought, you know, that was sort of a broad outlining, but it really does make sense. And it is sort of a, you know, a reason that they should an incentive for, for, for good behavior. You know, and [00:06:00] he was in Chicago and it seemed like this is the thirties. But Capone had something to do with the dairy business at one time.
And this was, this mom was. Arrest was something to do with a string of bombings in the dairy business. So somebody was trying to line up the dairy business back during the 30s, I would say. That was Curly Curly Humphreys had a lot to do with that. They figured if you could, if you could line up the milk and, you know, milk was everywhere.
You had the, just like with everything, you had the, the milk unions and they delivered the milk around just like, you know, years later in, in Jersey, like you should have the garbage, but if you could line up the. The milk lobbies, that was one of the first unions that they were known for, for getting lined up was, was, was the the milk haulers.
And that actually led to several types of legislation for how clean milk had to be and different things. I mean, it was really revolutionary how currently view the the unions and things. Yeah, he was, he was a genius. He was smart. He was an [00:07:00] organizer. He, he knew he didn’t need to go around beating people up and robbing stores and transporting narcotics.
And booze was legal by now, but he knew to get into those unions and organize people and extort money from businesses. Guy was a, guy was a genius, really. He register for the draft they found out in, in you know, for World War II, but he never served. A lot of guys did serve in World War II whether you’re in the mob or not, but a lot of people served.
It was kind of unusual if you didn’t. He was a little bit old actually, I think, to to be going in. The next time he gets questioned about bombings, it’s about bombing. the homes of some brothers that own a paper company, the Victory Paper Company. I’m not sure what that was all about, but it’s alleged that those, that paper company was supplying paper to the policy operators.
You know, they had to have paper to write down the bets. You know, interesting thing when I was looking researching. The bomber, they [00:08:00] described the policy and said the name of policy came from the fact that there were, there are these insurance policies that people pay like 50 cents a week on or 25 cents a week on it.
And, and I, they, they still have that. And so it was a little bit like that. You go, you’d write down their name and get their 25 cents for the, the wheel for the lottery. And so it looked a little bit like, you know, an insurance policy collector, the guys that went around and collected from all the. You know, 15, 25 cents, 50 cents a week from people to, they just want to, poor people just want a burial policy.
I remember that’s been going on a long time. I think it’s still a certain business of that out there. Oh yeah. So anyhow, just a little aside there about the policy. You know, he was he was arrested and charged with and released, of course, for more bombings in Chicago area. They bombed a gas station trying to organize gas station employees to join a union.
So the usual kind of [00:09:00] mob activities where you need to. To force people to intimidate people to join a union or to go on strike or not go on strike or solve a strike or, you know, whatever you need to be done. And then when an election, when an election, this guy would go around and do a little bombing for him.
So he had that name righteously, but Jimmy, the bomber and he had it all along. Matter of fact, he he was questioned about that gas station bombing and the Teamsters, I guess, I don’t quite understand is what I read the Teamsters offered a reward for whoever was planting these bombs. I’m not quite, I don’t quite understand that, but you never know.
You gotta look into it a little deeper sometimes. If you’re trying to cover up who did something, you run the Teamsters, you know, that’s, that’s, we’ll talk about a sort of a little sleight of hand of the mob later on, but that sounds like the kind of thing where, you know. If you are the one that does the bomb and you’re the one that puts out the reward, it kind of draws the attention [00:10:00] away from you.
Here’s one of his first murders that they really tried to link to him, and it was a guy that worked for him as a part time, as in a collection agency that he had, you know, kind of his loan sharking, somebody’s loan sharking business, and he was like, he was going out doing some collecting for a loan sharker loan sharking business, and this guy worked for him, and that guy was found strangled to death, and then he’s trunk, you know, the old Chicago trunk music thing.
I think they pioneered that, I don’t know. So that, that was one of his first murders. That he was charged or not charged with, but was questioned. So he was you know he did have somebody that came up early that challenged him and that was Albert Toko. And you know, he’s he was kind of South side guy.
And, and so do you remember, remember when he was kidnapped? This is what we’re jumping on into the seventies. I mean, I don’t know if there’s anything else in between. So in between you get Al Toko [00:11:00] started into the stolen car racket in the late sixties, he goes into prison. So they’re both South side guys at this time.
And you’ve got, is, he’s a, he’s a pretty heavy hitter. He’s been around for a long time. Pilato is, I’m sorry, Toco is an up and coming guy. He works under Pilato and he starts this. This racket, Indiana and parts of Illinois, really the Wild West, their, their laws regarding switching VIN numbers and, and, and keeping track of those records were so lax and, and security was just non existent as far as what was required to, to, for insurance purposes and different things.
I mean, so that he discovered this and the racket really shot through the roof. It became eventually a 30 to 40 million a year racket, but Togo goes into prison late 60s. That’s it. At that point Jimmy Guitar comes and he takes over the racket. I mean, it’s, it’s sort of in his neighborhood. And so he decides he’s going to step up and he’s going to take over to go zone [00:12:00] racket.
And he puts together a crew of guys He’s got a guy, Steve Ostrowski, who owns owns a chop shop. All his guys own chop shops, basically. Richie Ferraro and Joseph Theo, Earl Abercrombie. And his main muscle Adorino and obviously Billy Dauber. And Billy Dauber is a psychopathic murderer. And it’s always good to have one of those guys if you if you are a mob heavy hitter.
So he puts together this band of guys. And Toko eventually gets out of prison. And this was around this time before Toko, really, Catuara was at loggerheads with Pallado. Toko thought that, I’m sorry, I’m sorry, there’s so many vowels, you know, I have a problem with my vowels. So, Catuara was at loggerheads with Pallado.
He thought he was going to take over the Southside crew when Frank Laporte died. There’s a meeting at the back of the funeral home when LaPorte passed, and you’ve got you’ve got Paul the waiter, and you’ve [00:13:00] got you’ve got Tony Cardo, and they come to the conclusion that after Frank LaPorte, it is not going to be Jimmy Kitara who takes over the, the South Suburban crew, the Southside crew, it’s going to be it’s going to be, Who becomes their, the capo down there.
And that really, really pushed that was a, a really bothersome thing for Qatar, who was an old guy, an old. school guy and thought that he really deserved it. And that was about the time that he started taking over Tocco’s rackets because Tocco was Pallado’s guy. And he steps into these, he builds up this crew of heavy hitters that we mentioned.
Toko comes out of prison and Pallado is still having problems with with this Katara. And so, there was so much money in these chop shops. And all these guys own their own, their own junk yards and guitars guys around 1976. The damn broke a lotto and Tocco [00:14:00] decide they’ve had enough. And guitar has got to go, but they can’t just take him out because he’s got a lot of standing and believe it or not, there is a lot of respect in that world for the old Sicilian guys, you can’t even, you know, and I know that we don’t always understand the dynamics of what they consider respect.
I mean, you know, Gary, it’s, it’s, it’s weird. His guys don’t hold the same. So they start taking them out one at a time. You know what? Almost you get, you get an October, this Ostrowski who was like his right hand man, and then in almost two a month in 1977, two in June, two in July, and then in August, and, and this is where you really see the wild bunch.
This is, they were the real heavy hitters in taking these guys. Doubt until you get to San Manino. That was a real public murder and the cas grew in the wild bunch teaming up. Qatar’s watching all his guys die. But they can’t kill Qatar. So they kidnap him and they sort of warn him, see, [00:15:00] you’re done.
You’re on the shelf. Interesting. So that was when they tried to shelf him. Let, let’s make sure that everybody understands. Now, this is all geographically, this is all in the southwest part of Chicago, and this is Chicago is gonna the Chicago Heights crew, right. Correct. The Chicago Heights Crew. The Southside Chicago Heights Crew.
Yeah, correct. I should have called it the Chicago Heights Crew. Which was ran by Frank LaPorte, goes all the way back to Capone days. Correct. And this, this borders on to Indiana. And so then you’ve got these different guys out there that have junkyards and of course, chop shops you know, body shops and they’re stealing cars.
I knew a guy here in Kansas City, steal cars. He’d take them out to a farm and he’d cut them up and then he had a series of body shops that he was connected to and they’d actually call him and they’d say, Hey, I need a, you know, I need a front clip for a blue Cadillac. Now this guy would go out and find a blue 72 Cadillac or [00:16:00] 82 Cadillac.
Steal that car and and you’d have part of the parts sold many times and so then they do runs clear up through the mid all around the midwest and so that’s what these guys were doing after zoom was cutting them up and then selling them to other body shops. Anywhere else in the country was really strict on where did these parts come from?
Yeah. You know, where did you get that front clip? Where did you get that tie rod? Where did you get these different that, that, that right from that door that, that, where did you get these parts? And Indiana and Illinois, they were so lax on their record keeping and their requirements that it was, it was literally the wild west, this specific geographic area, their record keeping methods.
It really created the perfect storm. That was kind of what what set the stage for this kind of job shop activity. So when Blank Report dies, it’s the, the hierarchy, Paula Wader and Tony Ocardo, [00:17:00] Joe Batters, they meet, and you know, they appoint the next boss of the Chicago Heights crew, and that ends up being Al Pilato, who, so Jimmy Catuara was this old time guy, now he was, He was, I don’t think he was from down there because he got killed way up in the path.
Right. Yeah. But he, he had been working down there and now he’s out in a way. So in the Al Tocco is in and out of jail who are going to be more important later on in the outfit. But so I, okay, now I understand. I never understood this chop shop wars because it was. Geographically so far away from the patch, from, you know, the, the guys downtown from Joy Lombardo and you know, Cicero and all that, that I, now I finally got my, my mind around that.
I, I appreciate that. One reason I wanted to do this show to help me get my mind around this chop shop wars because it was so huge. God, they killed so [00:18:00] many guys. So I’m sorry. Yeah. You were at the point that they’ve kidnapped Jimmy Couture, held him in the trunk, I think more than a day or two, wasn’t it?
Yeah. And that was, that was to let him know, I mean, when we say you’re shelved, you’re shelved. We’re not going to give you another warning. Not gonna, this is it, this is it, you know? And so, because otherwise they would have just killed him. But as, as, you know, we mentioned earlier, there is a strange sort of respect.
For that it has to had to exist in that mob world where they didn’t just kill every guy that made a man. I mean, there were rules. They were obviously broken at times, but there were rules that protected guy is, you know in in their own way. I mean, there was a hierarchy and they didn’t just kill Qatar.
He was an old, well respected Sicilian guy, and there was a lot of respect for the Sicilians in Chicago. I mean, if you look at what happened after a car note, basically all the leadership Going forward was always [00:19:00] Ilian. So they, they didn’t just kill him, they kidnapped him. They, you know, gave him his walking papers and that was that.
For a while. Now, while this is all transpiring, Illinois decides they need to crack down on a lot of this chop shop activity. The Illinois State Police forms a special task force led by Lieutenant Vladimir Ivkovic and Ivkovic as his old guys. And they really start going after this chop shop activity in Illinois.
I mean, statewide, it’s big. And if Kovich, one day in I believe it’s 78, he finds a bomb outside of his home police. And this is state police lieutenant. The bomb is right next to the gas you know, the gas hookups for his home. Yeah. I mean, you, you as a, it’s cold as an officer. That’s, that’s not done.
It’s cold. That is not, that is not done, is never done. So, but what they. [00:20:00] And I think that there were some problems. The bomb wasn’t so, they said if it had gone off, but it was just sort of sitting there and I think it wasn’t active or whatever. It was just sort of sitting there. A bomb happened to be sitting at the, at the at the home of the police, the state police lieutenant in charge of the chop shops.
Very shortly thereafter, Jimmy the Bomber Catuara is executed walking through Chicago. And then it’s not, you know, it was never known who planted the bomb or anything like that, but my theory has always been that. Katara wouldn’t lay down, wouldn’t remain shell, wouldn’t do what he was told, and so this was used as sort of a justification.
There was only one guy in Chicago named The Bomber at that time. So they leave a bomb, a relatively inert bomb, dangerous but relatively inert, they leave it at the head guys. Place this guy who would really be going after Toko’s guys at the time because Toko had basically won the chop shop wars and was starting in with [00:21:00] Lombardo.
That’s another story. So that justified. The execution of Jimmy the Bomber Katara, because, well, look guys, he’s clearly out of control, going after state police, so we had to take him out, and then they don’t have to worry about it, they found, they found a reason to kill him, to where they didn’t have to worry about the Sicilian respect and all that jazz, and that’s what I’ve always seen.
That was always my guess, obviously it’s not written down, nobody’s talked about it, but I always thought that was a false front that they used to justify killing Katara. Yeah, heck Toko, you know, rather than keep dealing with him, he might’ve just put that bomb up there by the, he knew whoever put that bomb there, they didn’t intend on it going off.
They didn’t want too much heat brought down on them, but they knew the, the heat was going to come down from that bomb. And, and who’s it going to come down on? It going to come down on Jimmy the bomber. I mean, that’s, that’s a, that’s a really good. I would say, I, I just can’t imagine that he would [00:22:00] do that.
I mean, when you’re in that position, you don’t really care that much about the police state police and local police. You kind of worry about the FBI, but by the time you know, they’re there, it’s too late anyhow, they’re just serving search warrants and getting your records. He was, he was an old man at this time.
I mean, no, you’ve seen so. Yeah, I, I would say, unless he was a senile old man that that thought, well, this is, you know, like he went back to the old days, he thought he was still working for Al Capone or something. Right, Pineapple Primary, you know. Really? Well, that’s in fact, my story, you know, it’s kind of interesting that they would they would import guys from another crew, like the Wild Bunch and, and Jerry Scalise and, and Harry Aleman and some of those guys, was it Nicole Nicoletti? Some of them would bring them down from the Taylor, was it the Taylor Street crew or was that the yeah, they, they were they were Cicero and then Cicero crew. The, the Cal. Yeah. There were 2, 2 2 murderous crews out there was the Calabrese crew. [00:23:00] Yeah. Oh yeah. The Wild Bunch.
They were the two crews. But still, though, the Southwest is so geographically isolated from and it ran all the way to Gary, Indiana. I mean, they really covered a huge area. So they probably had I probably had a lot of body shots down in Gary, Indiana, more than likely. It was it was that was you. The Chicago Heights crew covered the largest geographic area.
With the exception of, I mean, of course you can say that, that, you know, Grand Avenue went all the way out to Vegas, but the largest geographic area was definitely the Chicago Heights group. Or you could say some of them went down to Des Moines. That’s right. They had Louie Fratto down there in Des Moines.
So that’s right. Jerry knows G. O. A. I don’t know who they were. Actually, I think they were like, Kind of their own capo of, of Des Moines, if you will. It was so different back then, you know, compared to what it would eventually evolve to and how, how things were changed. So yeah, they [00:24:00] were kind of independent operators, but yeah, once it became more structured, yeah, this was just geographically, it was just a massive area, you know, the outfit it’s I can’t believe there hasn’t been more.
Some kind of movies, decent movies about the outfit. There’s so many stories, so many great stories. I keep hearing, and you know Bulldog Drummond told me that he had been consulted, and, and there were people working on, at one time, a movie on Ocado, but You know how movies are, you hear about one and then you just never hear about it again.
I know two or three like that people, you find out, you know, they’ve, they’ve even like got people saying so and so’s playing this part. So and so’s playing this part. This director’s on board and all that. And then you just never hear from it. It falls through. Exactly. You just never know how that’s going to happen.
But anyhow I really appreciate you helping me with this story. It’s just one of those. Little stories that I’ve always [00:25:00] been confused about and I, and I figure if I’m confused, there’s a lot of mob fans and, and mob scholars that, you know, are, are kind of call ourselves scholars. A lot of interested people is the outfit.
Interested people have heard about all this, the chop shop wars and Jimmy the bomber, but I never really understood because like I said, just so geographically Disassociated from the rest of the outfit to me that I couldn’t quite get get it together. How that fit how that worked together. And I have to assume that whatever they made out there, the Al Pilato, then he was kicking back up to sure.
Yeah, I put later on. You know, 30 40 million a year racket in total course. The mob wants to not lock down as much of that as possible. And so, in addition to what was going on between guitar and Toko, they were killing individual guys, just like when they were trying to lock down the street tax. They were doing basic.
[00:26:00] The, the the car theft tax also, it was all part of the same citywide scheme that they were doing. And so it’s, it’s not always clear who was killed as part of an actual, the war and who was killed to get them in line. You know, it was a really messy time that was going on. And, and you’ve seen the lists.
I mean, they were dropping bodies left and right. They were. Guys, I’ll put in the show notes, I’ll I’ll put a copy of that list. So go to the show notes and you can see all the people a little bit about how they died. It’s kind of interesting. It’s kind of frightening in a way that they were killing that many people, man.
And Billy Dauber, of course, he was Couture’s ace number one guy. From what I heard you say, I didn’t really quite realize where he fit in. And that was one of the more, more famous mob murders, really, if you will, because again, Bulldog. John Drummond almost got to witness that. They were watching the Adam News crew that were filming Billy Dahmer coming out of the courthouse.
It was one of the other northern county courthouses. Will [00:27:00] County, yeah. Will County. And he was coming out and they, Drummond wanted to follow him. And he didn’t because they had something else downtown. They, their producer told him, get on back down to the loop and do something, film something and Dobber and his wife drive away.
And, and who, who was in that hit crew was Jerry Scalise. The Calabrese brothers. And, and I think he had Petrocelli and I mean, you had, you had everybody, it was a whole crew out there that followed them as they went out and they lived in a rural area and. Killed Billy Dauber. He must have.
Billy and Charlotte. And his wife too. They must have really been scared of that Billy Dauber to go that far to get him. And I think they’ve said that. I think Frank Calabrese Jr. remembers his father talking and he said, oh, he is very dangerous. It was all of us. Huh. Interesting. All right, Cam, you got anything else we need to say about this?
I, you know, the chop shop wars, it was one of the, I don’t know if you remember this, Gary, but you were, you did a [00:28:00] show about Harry Aleman and I got into the wild bunch and that was us, us doing Butch Petruccelli, but that really led me down the, led me down the Primrose path into the chop shop wars and, and that was.
really what got me started us working together. And so this is sort of coming back full circle. I mean, this is one of the first deep dives that I did for you. And I really, I have so much fun coming on here. I really appreciate it. It’s been you know, and I I’ve had a, had a year and I, I really really love coming on.
I’m gonna have to Start coming back. Alright, we, we’ll get you back more regular and do a few more Chicago stories. I kind of get caught up. Absolutely. Brother. Tried to do, I, I do a couple, did a couple of Kansas City things. I just put one up about the River Key War and then putting one up about the war between the Ellas and the Spiros.
I did these a long time ago. I thought, well, I just, I’m gonna, I’m gonna redo ’em and, and put ’em back up again. So I just did them and kind of, I saw the one you did about Johnny. Green. Johnny Green. Yeah, I just, he was killed with two guys. I tell you what, these two guys, they do, [00:29:00] they wanted to take out Johnny Green.
He lived about a block from Nick Zabella, the boss, and, and they wait for him to come home at night. He had a joint and he comes in late at night. And he has a garage door opener and he opens the garage door and they’re standing right around the sides of the garage where you can’t see him to this day when I pull in my garage, I go ahead and shut the garage door as soon as I get clear inside because they just step inside and blast him in the shotgun.
I mean, you got him trapped right there inside of his car. He can’t do anything. Guys, that’s a scary thing. So yeah, I don’t know. I just did a couple. I’ve got two I just put up about Springfield, Massachusetts. There’s a guy named Nick Parisi that wrote a book. And then there was a lady, Pasqualina, about Pasqualina Albano, who was married to the guy who has a different name, the king of the bootleggers at one time.
He got killed by, by this Nick Parisi who wrote his own book. He got killed by Parisi’s ancestor Joseph, I think, [00:30:00] Joseph Parisi. So I’m doing the spring, the old days of the Springfield mob here in the next couple of weeks. So Springfield’s really interesting. Yeah. Yeah, it is. And you know, I found out how come it’s still kind of influenced by the Genovese families because of this Pasquale, Pasquale, Pasqualina married a guy from the Genovese family, but he was a weak sister, but he brought some of his relatives out and he died actually of natural causes, I think, but the Genovese influence never left Springfield, Massachusetts.
There’s a gal on the MobBeat reporter, I’ll talk to you offline, but yeah, it’s really, she does a great, yeah, does a great job on the MobBeat up there. I’ve recommended everybody, I’ll have to dig her name up, but that, you know, there’s some great mob, mob journalists that are still around.
And if y’all, if y’all dig a little bit, you can find them. There’s some, there’s some good mob writing still, and it’s been going on for a while. Yeah, really. I’d tell you the guy that I’m always impressed by. [00:31:00] And he only does New York stuff. A guy, he writes under Ed Scarpo. Yes. He is really, really good and really detailed.
He knows a lot of people. He’s the one that really hooked me up with Michael DeLeonardo out of the Gambino family when I got the chance to interview him, but this guy’s got sources like you can’t believe. I’m always impressed with him. Yeah. All right, Cam. All right, brother. I really appreciate you finish this off, guys.
You know that I like to ride motorcycles. So be sure and look out for motorcycles when you’re out there. And if you have a problem with PTSD and you’ve been in the service get on the V. A. And Get that hotline number and hand in hand with PTSD comes problems with drugs and alcohol. Well, we’ve got Anthony Ruggiano, former Gambino soldier that is has a drug and alcohol.
Well, he actually works in a drug and alcohol place down in Florida and he’s got a hotline on his Facebook or his website. So be sure to like and subscribe and give me a [00:32:00] review and do all that kind of stuff. Tell your friends about the podcast and you can’t check out the gangland wire podcast group anymore.
So find me. On Facebook, if you’re interested, and I’ll invite you to join, we had to go private. We got too many, too many too much stuff going on. I just couldn’t take it anymore. It’s a big podcast group. It’s got a lot of really interesting discussions from people who were, you know, grew up in the neighborhoods or had relatives that were involved in different families, whether it’s Chicago or, or New York, Kansas City or whatever.
I even had a Kansas City mob guy on there who ran another Kansas City guy that’s kind of a periphery guy off because he posted up some pictures. So I got a Kansas City mob guy on it too. Yeah. All right, Cam. Thank you. Let me do a quick plug. I’ve got my book Swan Song with Frank Calabrese Jr’s wife Swan Song, sort of a real Chicago mob wife.
It’s a, [00:33:00] it’s a. Great, great great story of a different take on the story for Mob Wives telling how a strong woman dealt with a hitman as her father in law. And I really, I really think everybody should check it out. It’s a good look inside a mob family from from A view that you don’t see very often.
So yeah, it’s a great book folks. I’ve read it. We’ve got, if you look up, I’ve got an old interview somewhere in the last year or two years. I don’t know. You can find it on the just search for Lisa Swan, Camillus Robinson, Gangland Wire. You’ll find that interview too. But yeah, it’s a really good book. I hear she might go out and do a show in Las Vegas with Frank Calabrese.
Her husband, her ex husband is out there permanently. He’s pushing for it. I was out there last week. I went to the Ma Museum and you know, Gary, you, you hooked me up with the guys out there and I talked to them and they were there. All about it. And like I said, you know, Frank is their [00:34:00] mobster in residence.
You know, universities have their writers in residence and the mob has their mobsters in residence. He’s out there and he’s pushing for it. And I talked to her and she would be really excited about going out there. So I think it’s a, I think it would really be a great opportunity to have this husband and wife talk about how they lived the life.
And, and what went on behind closed doors in the, in the world of hit man, loan shark, all around horrible guy, Frank Calabrese senior. Yeah, I just, it’s, it’s her description of that guy. So I tell you what, I guess you just live through things. You don’t know when you live in that life, you don’t know the danger and, and what you’re really dealing with.
I mean, she knew, but. You know, part of it, you know, it’s just, it’s a fascinating book and, and I hope they can get those guys together out there. Plus it’ll give them a big plug for your book too. So I always want to make that money, [00:35:00] you know, give me that money, baby, make that money. All right, Ken, thank you.
Take care, Gary.
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36min
April 03, 2024 What Happened to the French Connection Dope?
Retired Intelligence Detective Gary Jenkins brings you the best in mob history with his unique perception of the mafia. In this episode, I delve into a fascinating tale involving corrupt individuals like Gaspipe Casso, a New York police cop named Vinny Albano, and a drug dealer named Herbie Pate. Albano, engaged in taking down the French Connection, conspires with Pate to steal French Connection heroin from the police property room. The duo starts selling the stolen heroin on the streets, making millions of dollars, with Gaspipe Casso taking a cut. However, tensions rise between Albano and Pate over money, leading to a lethal confrontation where Pate shoots and kills Albano in self-defense.
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Transcript
[0:00] Hey, all you wiretappers out there, I got a fun little story here about Gas Pipe Casso, a corrupt New York police cop named Vinny Albano, not one of the two mafia cops, Caracapa and Esposito, and another Lucchese associate drug dealer named Herbie Potte.
That’s P-A-T-E, I believe.
Yeah, P-A-T-E, Herbie Potte or Potte.
[0:29] Albano was part of the crew he worked narcotics and was part of the crew that helped take down the French connection so he knew about the dope and they knew about it being in the property room there was like what uh 70 some kilos in the property room at one time and so he got this Herbie Pott they both had been involved in a lot of crooked stuff and and with Gas Pipe Castle So he instructed Herbie Pate just how to to put on a police uniform and got some forged papers and access the property room.
Well, well, this Herbie Pate goes in, he’s cracking jokes and he’s making the property room clerk laugh and that kind of thing.
And he goes in and he walks out with all this French Connection heroin.
Well, he and Vinnie, Vinnie Albano, they start selling it on the streets over the next.
[1:17] Few weeks and months, and they’re making a lot of money. I mean, this was millions of dollars worth of heroin.
Millions in Heroin and Betrayal
[1:23] I mean, millions of dollars worth. And Gaspipe Castle was getting a piece of that action all along because they were associates in the Lucchese family, and he helped facilitate all this. So he always gets the action.
Well, Albano was kind of a, he had a bad temper, shall we say, and he was suspicious.
And Pate, he was like, you know, know he was a crook he no there’s no honor among thieves in this world and so they get arguing about money and albano is accusing pate of stealing from him albano drives to pate’s work and tries to run him down the car one evening and i don’t know what the work was but there must not have been anybody around he avoids him they albano gets out and he’s a tough guy but so So says Pate.
Pate had gone to gas pipe and said, you know, I’ve got this problem with this crazy ass cop.
[2:16] I need a gun. So gas pipe had given him a little 38, a little, I think it was a little chief air weight, I believe.
And they’d given him a gun. So he’s got a gun stuck down his back pocket while they’re wrestling around.
Pate was able to reach around and get that gun out and start shooting.
Deadly Confrontation on the Street
[2:32] And he shoots and he kills Albano right there on the street.
Well, he’s not really that guy particularly. you know he’s a heroin dealer and a drug dealer and an associate but he’s not really that guy and and so he calls gas pipe casso who is that guy and casso said okay just wait right there i’ll be there casso runs over to where they are together they take albano’s car and they put his body in it and one of them drives it down to by the ronzos underneath the veronzo bridge and leaves it down there with his body in the car knowing it’ll be found probably later that night or the next day and takes him back home and and they say caspo we know a lot of this because casso if you remember, He came in for a period of time, then he went back out. I’d have to do a whole story on that whole ending of Gas Pipe Castle career.
But he did talk about this to the law enforcement and explained this story out.
And so he said when he got back home, he said he felt really bad because Albano had really been a big help to him.
[3:38] Albano, this former, I think he’s a lieutenant or something, he had even taken a big magnet into the courtroom.
A courthouse where they had some tapes stored that were going to be incriminating for Casso and ran this magnet over these stored tapes and you know that straightens out all the little little electrons in a digital tape or whatever kind of analog tape either one I think a big heavy magnet will ruin those tapes and he’d done that for him but you know he I mean, Casso was like he kind of could disassociate himself from any real personal feelings about this.
He felt like he was kind of a CEO or a boss of a big organization.
And whatever they did and whatever they needed to do to survive and to make money and to prosper was okay.
Not unlike a lot of big corporations today. The tobacco corporations, think about that. They stand up there live like hell in front of the national media, in front of some Senate investigating committee.
So, you know, not much difference, you know, two sides of the same coin there, I would say.
So thanks a lot. Just a little story I happened to run across and I thought you guys would be interested in.
...more
5min
April 01, 2024 Beneath the Bathrobe: The Dark World of Vincent Gigante
Retired Intelligence Detective Gary Jenkins takes you on a riveting journey through the dark corridors of mob history. Step into the shadows with Gary as he sits down with an esteemed reporter and author, Larry McShane, to unravel the enigma that was Vincent “The Chin” Gigante, a man whose life reads like a gripping crime novel. Larry McShane, a seasoned veteran of the city beat, delves deep into his book “Chin: The Life and Crimes of Mafia Boss Vincent Gigante,” shedding light on the man behind the myth. Vincent Gigante’s story is one of intrigue and terror, a tale of a professional boxer turned merciless assassin whose very name struck fear into the hearts of his enemies. Handpicked by the notorious Vito Genovese to lead the Genovese Family, The Chin amassed a fortune of over $100 million, all while evading the relentless pursuit of federal investigators. But beneath the facade of power and wealth lurked a mind shrouded in darkness. Gigante appeared as a madman to the outside world, roaming the streets in a tattered bathrobe, playing games in storefronts, and hiding a second family from his wife. Despite his bizarre antics, Gigante’s cunning and ruthlessness knew no bounds, as he controlled an underworld empire of nearly three hundred made men. It took decades of intense FBI investigation by federal authorities to bring down the man who seemed untouchable finally. We learn they not only sent The Chin to prison but also forced him to admit he had been acting like he was crazy to avoid prosecution for many years. Join Gary Jenkins and Larry McShane as they peel back the layers of myth and legend to reveal the chilling truth behind one of the most notorious figures in mob history.
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Transcript
Welcome all you wiretappers. Good to be back here in studio gangland wire. I have a really interesting guy today. You may have all heard of him. He wrote the book on the chin Gigante. I have Larry McShane. Welcome Larry. Hey, good morning. Thanks for having me. Well, Larry, start out talking a little bit about your book, you know, how you got into it and, and, you know, because we can always get it on Amazon.
I’ll have guys, I’ll have links to the book in the show notes. So tell us about getting into your book. Yeah, I’d covered a lot of organized crime stuff in New York. I worked for Associated Press for a long time. And You know, I guess it’s, it’s the kind of thing where I looked around at some point and, you know, there had been guys were writing their own books, right?
Sammy the bull, for example, there was a whole book about little Al DiArco and yet nobody had really done any kind of a project involving a Gigante [00:01:00] who I found as kind of the most compelling mob figure. Out of that generation and that time when the mob was finally kind of brought down by the FBI. He was interesting.
And guys, the name of the book is The Chin. Let me give you the tagline on it. It is The Life and Crimes of Mafia Boss, Vincent Gigante. So by Larry McShane, like I said, I’ll have the the title, I mean, the link to the Amazon and the show notes. So how did you start out? Writing this book, did you like go to the FBI to do FOIA?
Did you get, did you have some mob sources or just agent sources? Tell a little bit about the process of doing a, on a guy that’s so secretive that he put on this act, this crazy act all those years and so secretive that we’ll get into later. He stayed in the background and pretended like fat Tony Salerno was the boss when he really was.
I mean, this guy was an enigma. Yeah, there was I mean, by the time I started doing the book, [00:02:00] Giganti had been in jail for some time at that point. And, and so there was some, some lapse of time between the whole story and, and and my decision to try and find somebody to, to buy this book, which they did.
And the timing was such that there were a lot of people still around who were involved in the whole prosecution. Lawyers. And I, I would say almost everyone I reached out to was, was eager to cooperate and gave me tons of stuff, you know because even though Giganti had been such a high profile boss, you know, his whole dodge of feigning mental illness for three decades and also made him a guy.
Who was very mysterious, although the most powerful mafia boss in New York, he was, he was something else. So you know, let’s talk a little bit about this this [00:03:00] enigma of, of him and the Genovese family would go all the way back. I was doing a little research on him about how they had this. This habit of having a real boss and then a guy that’s out on the street that everybody seems to know is a boss and, and plus they had all the, like, just the fact that he pointed the chin, you know, you didn’t say his name, you pointed at your chin and, and some of the other guys had those same kind of codes to avoid their names being heard on a wire tap or anything.
So talk a little bit about that out front boss and then the real boss back behind in the Genovese family. Yeah. When, when the chin took over I believe Tony Salerno was the boss at that time, fat Tony. And it was just agreed that he would be the face of the, of the family for lack of a better term.
And Gigante would actually be running the family. You know, and it worked so well that Tony got indicted in the commission trial and convicted on that while, [00:04:00] you know, the chin avoided. Prosecution until 1997, you know, almost two decades later. That was that, that was pretty slick. And like I said, they pointed to the chin I believe quiet Dom Shrello, they pointed at the lips.
There’s another guy that made the sign of like bull horns. And the pointing at the chin was always the big one. Don’t speak. Just, just point to your chin. I even, I even met kind of Periphery mob guy who connected back to New York. And I mentioned, I just kind of was trying to engage him. He was, we would, what you’d call associate and he was living in another city, but he connected back to New York.
And I mentioned you to Gante and he just started pointing at his chin. So yeah, pretty well known. And apparently people were still obeying that order, huh? This guy did. [00:05:00] Yeah, right. That was just like two years ago. So interesting. That’s funny. You know, when, when he. As he came up, you know, we start off with the famous Frank Costello screwed up hit and he, I believe he was Vito Genovese driver at the time and, and, and, cause he could talk a little bit about, did you go back that far about that, those first years as, as he came on up the, the chain of command, shall we say?
Yeah, well, he had been, he had been working as a, not working. He was fighting as a, as a professional boxer for a little while. And you know, he grew up in Greenwich village, which was you know, a place where there were a lot of guys who were in the life living around. And you know, he came into the family and then really, as, as you just referenced his, his big break, if you want to describe it, that was that he is he has given the Costello [00:06:00] shooting which was in May, 1957.
Fido Genovese is looking to take over the family. And and so Chin gets the job and it’s in May of 1957, I believe. Costello has just come home to his apartment on the Upper West Side, he’s in the lobby after a night on the town, and Giganti shows up, pulls a gun, and he delivers his famous line, this one’s for you, Frank, and then misses.
He just grazes, he just grazes Costello’s head, and Costello survives, and Chin goes. So, you know, I think that’s what’s interesting. Another interesting thing about the Chin Gigante is he bridges the mob from the Prohibition era, really, which Costello, Lansky, and everybody came out of the Prohibition era and the first organization.
[00:07:00] He bridges that. Divide between there and he’s an important mafia figure all the way up to the commission. And after, you know, like you see 10 years after the commission case before he finally goes down. So he just, he is the mob in New York city, but he’s one of the lesser known guys. Everybody knows Gotti and Sammy the bull and all that, but they don’t know Gigante hadn’t really been that much written about him either.
Yeah. I mean, Gigante. You know, it was not a guy who was a fan of, of bosses like John Gotti. You know, he was, he was not on board with the killing of Paul Castellano in 1985 you know, outside Sparks Steakhouse. That’s an unsanctioned hit of a mob boss, which, you know, the other mob bosses don’t want to see that become a trend, right?
No. Yeah. And I mean, it’s funny that this just came up. I, that the first big mob story I covered was that murder, which was in December of 1985. It was [00:08:00] Christmastime and Castellano got killed by the Gotti hit squad outside Spark Steakhouse on 46th Street. And I got sent over from I worked at Associated Press at the time.
I got sent over from our office to the steakhouse and you know, I’ve never seen anything like it before. Since the, the two bodies are laid out in the street, the doors of their, of their town car are wide open. The FBI has Klieg lights set up all over the place. I mean, I, I didn’t plan for this coming up, but I can recall almost every detail of it because it was I guess it’s one of the first big stories I got to cover and the scene itself was just so impossible to forget.
I can imagine that was, I mean, right in the middle of Manhattan around Christmas time. Yeah. All those people on the streets. Did you look across the street and see Gotti and Sammy the Bull sitting there watching? We only learned about [00:09:00] that later. And then, of course. You know, now, if you want to speak to Sammy about something, you can just call him on the phone.
He’s I know he’s available to chat. I’m sure you’ve spoken with him, right? Yeah. For 500 bucks. He’ll talk to you.
Hey guys, I’ll talk to you for free. But that guy, he wants money. As they say, Sammy was always an earner, you know, He was always a nerder. He’s still a nerder. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, Gigante, another thing I, I found interesting is the the music business. And, and he was kind of involved with that Morris Levy and Roulette Records.
And, and it seemed like there’s a famous story where they held one artist out of a window, the mob guys did, and threatened to let him drop if he didn’t succeed to something. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Did you, could you touch on that in your book? Sure. Yeah, yeah. Horace Levy, as you mentioned, was the guy who who ran Roulette Records which was kind of [00:10:00] a smaller label, but still managed to have a lot of a lot of hit records back in that era.
Now he was friendly with, with Chin’s brother, too. You know, his brother was a priest, and the two of them paled around a little bit. And, and it was certainly you know, they say an artist friendly label. This was an artist unfriendly label. You know what I mean? Yeah. When, when I wrote the book I got a chance to speak with Tommy James of Tommy James and the Shondells.
They’re big. Well, you’re, you’re as old as I am. They’re a big, a big hit group in the sixties. You know what I mean? Had a lot of, a lot of hits. And You know, he basically told me that all the chart topping in the world did not change the arrangement financially, which was, you know, Morris Levy’s getting a lot and the performers are getting a little, you know what I mean?
And the label hung around for a while when, when Chin took over, you know, it, it was still a, still an operation where they could get money [00:11:00] from. But you know, at that point the industry was changing and Morris Levy was an old guy. You know, his time, it’s sort of come and go, but he He made a lot of money almost to say he stole a lot of money from artists who deserved it for the work that they did and he profited from.
Yeah, he did, and it was, I think Tommy James even has his own book out there. I tried to get him to give me an interview. I don’t know if I ever even got the message or not, but but I thought that would be interesting, you know, the, the movie, the was, I mean, the series, the Godfather of Harlem depicted the chin in that.
Did you happen to see that? No, I haven’t seen it. And You know, I, I won’t comment. I won’t comment on it. It wasn’t even close to, okay. It wasn’t even close to reality. Did kind of touch on the music business a little bit, but but that I tell you what, this guy was one of the kind of rackets was, that he liked, that he seemed to [00:12:00] like, he being Gigante.
Well, I mean, the, the Genovese family really had Had its hands into sort of everything. You know what I mean? There was a, they called it the concrete club in Manhattan, where the mob was getting a percentage of all the concrete used at different buildings under construction. You know, they were by all accounts, deathly against drugs, you know they had other businesses, other industries, construction and, you know, just kind of a steady flow of income from a variety of, of places, you know, they were, you know, with chin there, they were the number one operation.
Although Giganti had a reputation as a fair guy who didn’t want more than his fair share, you know,
Now, when, when did that whole act start, the whole crazy act? Was there like a genesis, there was [00:13:00] a, an event, I’m not, I’m not real clear on that. Was there an event that started that whole crazy act? Yeah, he’s he’s arrested, I should start at the beginning. He for a brief time in the early 70s. He’s married, and he moves out to suburban New Jersey.
He leaves the village, and while he’s there, he sends Christmas cards to the local police officers with some money inside. Not, you know, not like a thousand dollars, like five bucks. Sort of like a Christmas gift more than a bribe. But then this becomes known, and now all of a sudden, you know, there’s, there’s a whole to do.
And this is, this is when Giganti first brings out the crazy act. There was a 1971 meeting where he’s going to be interviewed with a psychiatrist. And he doesn’t like ease into it, you know, he just shows up the first day with the, the, you know, [00:14:00] the whole outfit, right? The ratty bathrobe, unkempt.
Unshaven. The hair is sticking up. And, and when the the psychiatrist arrives, rather than sitting there to greet him, he’s lying asleep in his bed. So that’s kind of the first incident where, where this came out, you know what I mean? And then it, then of course, it just became You know, it’s like he won the Oscar every year for best mob fake sick guy.
You know what I mean? Every day he’d go out and wander the streets of Greenwich Village in his bathrobe talking to himself. Well, I mean, that’s the thing is that you know, for a guy that had so much power and, and such a long reach within organized crime especially at first. But still even later on, you know, he didn’t really get out beyond the village much.
You know what I mean? His, his social club was right across the street on Sullivan street in the, in the village [00:15:00] from where his mom’s apartment was, which is where he wound up living. And so you would see him wandering the streets or you would not see him once he got inside the the triangle social club, his operation down there.
And you know, it’s, it’s funny. There was, I think one of the most famous stories is he was, he was walking through Greenwich village and the, the fed showed up. You know, they’re telling him to look and he sees the agents and immediately drops to his knees and folds his hands and begins acting as if he’s praying outside the church.
You know what I mean? And the other, the other great one is, of course, he’s living with his mom and the feds come to arrest him. And when they come in that house, they can’t find him and they go into the bathroom and he’s. Buck naked in the shower with the water coming down. Yeah. So, I mean, he played the role to [00:16:00] the Hilton and to the end, right?
Almost to the end. Almost to the end. We’ll get to that. Yeah. Let me tell you something, Larry. There’s nothing worse than to have to wrestle around and naked guy. Not absolutely nothing worse. I’ve had to do it. There is nothing worse. I’m just going to take your word for that.
Especially if it’s three o’clock in the morning, it’s about still about 95 degrees. Yeah. So, you know, it’s interesting that Genovese. You know, he was big into narcotics. That was one of his things. By now, by this time, they’re, they’re, the Genoveses are really against it. Is that what I understand? Yeah, that’s right.
Chin for sure was was an anti drug guy. You know, I think at that point they were pretty much Unquestioned at the top of the mob food chain in, in New York. And there were other ways to make money. [00:17:00] You know, they, they, again, they had a lot of power. They had a lot of connections and yeah, he just decided, you know, our family is not going to get involved in this.
Yeah, he’s probably smart on that. Keeps a lot of heat off. You know, they Tony Salerno, that big moneymaker, they got in the construction business. They figured out that that’s where the money was. Just like Sammy the Bull did in the in Paul Castellano did. The Gambino, they got and figured that construction business.
Manhattan was a huge moneymaker. And Tony Salerno, he fell on this windows case. Do you know any much about that windows case? Yeah, the windows case was well, as it sounds, the mob had figured out a way to take over the installation of windows in city housing developments, I guess, as they were being put up and, you know, like any other mob operation, the cost of the windows went up and then they skimmed off the top and that [00:18:00] was a really, really lucrative operation for the mob. You know I mean, it was, it was, when I say like, you know, this is a big deal, we’re talking about organized crime taking a cut of, you know, every window installed in every city housing project.
You know, that’s how, how deeply involved federal prosecutors said they were in this operation, you know, wow, that took a lot of organization and management and paying people off. And so, but I understand they made a ton of money out of it. I was going to say, I think it really illustrates, you know, the, the grip that, that the five families still had on, on the city at that point.
And you know, it really, I guess, started with. With Rudolph Giuliani taking over as U. S. prosecutor, you know, and then trial after trial after trial, and they won, they won them all, you know, yeah, they really want them all. Yeah, the mob can’t fight the [00:19:00] wiretaps and Rico. Right, exactly. And those draconian sentences that you could get on money laundering or a Rico case, you get these, you know, 40, 50 year sentences, you could.
I used to say you, you can make anybody tell on their mother when you’re, when they’re like a 60 year old guy looking at a 50 year sentence or a 30 year sentence, even it’s just, you know, before, you know, like guy said, well, I can do a trace down in my head. I can do five years, you know, easy, but not 50.
Well, I mean, everything started out with you know, two counts, 20 years each. And then they went from there. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yes. I knew that. Yes. They got tough. They really got tough. So talk about this. Let’s start talking a little bit about the beginning of the end here. He goes to the penitentiary on something and he continues to run his family through his son.
I think his son’s name was maybe, was it Andrew? [00:20:00] Yeah. I believe that’s right. Was he like running messages back and forth then, I guess from the Yeah, he was more of a messenger as opposed to like the head of the family, you know what I mean? Right. I I didn’t mean you sound was running, I guess, but he was right.
Relaying his dad stuff. And you know, it’s funny because this, this is not how the chin ever did things, you know? There, there’s sort of a famous. Mob story where, where John Gotti tells Gigante that John Jr. has just been a maid, become a maid guy. And Gigante’s response was, I’m sorry to hear that.
Yeah. You know, he did not want his family involved, but. By the time we’re in the 2000s, right? He’s, he’s in prison. He’s going to die behind prison. He’s still trying to keep some level of his fingers in, in the pie back in Greenwich Village. And you know, the game had completely changed by then, you [00:21:00] know the mob had no leverage.
If the government wanted to get you, they could get you. And in this case, there was There was a young mobster, a young Genevieve mobster who would flip and and start testifying against all sorts of, of people within the family. That was kind of the first for that family. One of the first guys that flipped then sounds like.
Well, I mean, yeah. He, he was one of the I guess I should say this, the core group within the Genevieve family never, you know, never Did you know what I mean? Right. There was no gravano. Or D’Arco, or, or, you know, other families had bosses who flipped and testified, right? Yeah, I’ve seen them. Yeah, there’s a perfect example.
That was that Cookie Durso, I believe, was a guy that, that flipped over some kind of killing of a relative, I can’t remember the exact story on that. Yeah, give me one second here. Okay. [00:22:00] Alright, I gotta just do one thing.
I apologize, my computer froze up, which I had some notes on. Okay, alright. Yeah. I see you got an Elvis Presley Boulevard sign back in the up behind you. I used to have one of those in my, when I had a house in the driveway. Elvis Presley Boulevard. I went, I went down there, God, ages ago, ages ago. Had a great time.
Memphis is a great city. Oh man, my son lived there. He was with the railroad down there and I went, I don’t know how many times I was in Memphis and did everything there was to do and then some. It was a great city. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it really was. But so yeah, the. The first prosecution or the second prosecution, I should say, of, of Gigante which is where he actually was compelled in court to acknowledge that, you know, [00:23:00] the whole Bathrobe Act and the other bizarre behavior was all phonied up, you know, to avoid prison.
But that was in, in a lot of ways. engendered by a guy named named cookie Durso, Michael Durso who went inside the, the family and you know, recorded, I think it’s like thousands and thousands of hours of conversations with different guys in the family, which you know, basically at some point ends up leading to You know, Giganti giving up the ghost and, and taking this second plea after his, you know, other conviction.
You know, I heard a story about him after nine 11, him calling some family members and, and dropping the crazy act. And they were able to to record that and confront him with that. You heard that story? Yeah. You know you know, the prison phones are [00:24:00] obviously, and yeah, he was certainly very rational.
About what was going on in his hometown from his jail cell for sure. You know, and yeah, I guess, you know, it’s, it’s sort of odd too, that that that’s the thing that after all he’d been through that, that, you know, it was this thing that got him to break character. But on the other hand, you know, we, we think of these guys as mobsters.
He’s also the father, the son, he’s got siblings. His mom lives in the village, you know, which is not far away from where from where the trade center was. You know, and he was, I guess on that day, he was just another guy concerned about his family. Interesting, you know, this guy was he illustrates what, what I find fascinating about the Mafia, the, the, the Cosa Nostra American Mafia families is that they have this dual existence almost, if you will.
They, they. Go home to the [00:25:00] suburbs many times, or he didn’t go to the suburbs, but, but they go home and they have these families and the families go, you know, and they show up at the kids school plays and the kids school functions. And they have Sunday afternoon dinner, a bunch of extended relatives, maybe come in just like they showed on the Sopranos and they have this life.
And then they go over to the city and they have this gangster life. So it’s, it’s fascinating to me. And he was, he was really the epitome of that. He was like what you, the story you told about the his son, he told Gadi and I’m sorry that your son, you know, is now in this thing of ours. But of course then Chin does the same thing himself eventually.
Right. Yeah. You know, so what are you going to do? What are you going to do? Yeah. Yeah. You know, you would think hard to figure out. Yeah. Again, you know, this is a guy who had as we discussed, said to John Gotti wouldn’t do it. Then in the end, he wound up doing it you know, just so that he could keep his piece of, of [00:26:00] the Genevieve’s family income, you know, there, there was certainly no prestige in having the title when you’re in prison.
Right. Right. No, no, it’s interesting. So you were in courtroom in the courtroom the day that he had, he, I understand he had to admit out loud in court and you were in courtroom that day. Can you, can you set that scene and describe that for us? And it had to be quite a, quite a scene that day. Yeah, it was quite a scene that day.
You know I think it was in 2003, April, 2003. And so at that point, you know, if you want to go back to Castellano, You know, I’d been covering, covering organized crime for a long time, you know, and you know, I’d been to different hearings and different things, but, you know, this was completely unlike anything else.
There was a, there was a big buzz beforehand because the word was sort of out that he was going to be saying this. And you know, [00:27:00] of course it’s on the court calendar. So, you know, you know, that at the very least, you’re going to see him in the courtroom at this point, which was increasingly rare. His son his son Andrew was in the courtroom as well.
He was being sentenced on on his own charges. But yeah, I, I mean, I saw Giganti in court before and he would do even something as subtle as this. He would act like he had a leg tremor. And so he would just, his leg would twitch the whole time, you know what I mean? As part of the sick act and a federal prosecutor once told me that Giganti was doing the twitching thing with his, with his right leg.
And at some point he looked over and he was, Giganti had switched to doing it with the left leg and the prosecutor said, he told him, Hey, wrong leg,
but, but yeah, on, on the day of, of when he drops the act, he comes in, he elder enters a guilty plea, he’s seen chatting with his son Andrew, he’s sipping a glass of water at the defense label table you know, he’s shaking hands and [00:28:00] greeting his lawyers you know, at one point I believe he was kind of laughing a little bit at the defense table, you know and then Judge Glasser the federal judge out in Brooklyn I asked Giganti if it was true that he had you know, for more than a quarter century done this whole thing, misleading all these doctors simply to you know, assure his continued success within organized crime.
And Giganti just says, yes, your honor you know and yeah, it’s funny after all those years, that’s just how it. Comes to an end, you know, federal judge answers a question and he just says, yup, that’s right. You know, I, he he also he also, when he showed up, you know, he didn’t show up in like a suit or tie, you know, it wasn’t like that kind of thing, you know, Gotti, the dapper Don, you know, he was still you know, the hair was a little out there and he had a prison pullover shirt over a t shirt.
And he I mean, he’s an [00:29:00] old man at this point. He looked he was 75, I think, and you know, he looked like he was having a little trouble getting around, walking kind of gingerly as he came into the courtroom, you know?
Well, he was he was an interesting guy. How much longer did he live? I can’t remember. I want to say he died in 2005 at a prison in Texas. Oh, okay. He must not have gone to Springfield to the medical place, so. No, he just, right, he did not, I mean, you know, I guess they all have health problems, but he wound up they had Gotti, I guess, is the one I always think of who wound up in the dying in the federal.
Yeah, exactly. Down Springfield. Yeah. At one time I know a guy that was down there and kind of sent him down as a little bit of punishment. There’ll be a helper down there. And he had fat Tony Salerno was down there. And what’s his lefty Rogerio was down there. Oh God. Yes. They were all dying. Of course.
Yeah.
. All of a sudden, I forgot his first name. Carmine Benson. Benson Gigante. God, I can’t. I don’t know why all of a sudden I lost his [00:30:00] first name. Benson Gigante. He had quite a life. He was he was the ultimate Mafia boss.
It seems to me like the life of secrecy, which there any other stories you remember particularly about him that kind of struck you? Well, I mean, I remember this one. One of the things about him was that there was a lot of loyalty to the chin in his neighborhood. You know, it was a heavily Italian neighborhood.
In Greenwich Village and at one point the FBI came in and they went on the roof of of one of the buildings to set up a shed where they could do surveillance. And so they go up there at night in the dark and set this thing up and disappear. And when they come back the next day, it’s just been torn apart and left in rubble up there by, by the locals.
You know what I mean? You know, that’s always one of my favorite ones, you know yeah, yeah. You can’t get away with anything in those neighborhoods, those Italian neighborhoods. I know, I know you gotta be so sneaky. [00:31:00] It’s just, you’re going to be seen whenever you’re a stranger in the hood. Shall we say, yeah, I mean, he was You know, like almost like having some Hollywood star pop into your neighborhood if the Hollywood star was dressed like a bum, you know what I mean?
It’s crazy. All right. Well, Larry McShane, the book is. Chin, the life and times of mafia boss, Vincent Gigante. Look for that in the show notes, guys, you need to get that book. I know there’s not much out there on the social media and the articles and stuff about Gigante because he was so secretive. And I can imagine, Larry, it was really hard to get information.
Were you able to get hold of like this cookie Durso? Could you talk to him by any chance? No The guys that I talked to were mostly people who flipped like Gravano, for example. Yeah You know, or there were I mean, he, he was a guy that left behind a trail of a lot of court cases too. And I was also able, I was working at the daily news [00:32:00] to go back into the archives and find like a lot of stuff about, for example, the Costello hit.
So if you did a little digging, you could come up with a lot of stuff in spite of his efforts to ensure that nobody would hear much of this stuff. Interesting. So what are you doing now, Larry? You’re retired from being a newsman. I am. Chasing down sirens and ambulances, trying to get a story, running the scenes of mob hits.
I’m trying I’m trying to finish up another mob book on the Colombo Family War of 1991 through 93, which was kind of New York’s last big mob war. Yeah a little something, not much. I have to get you back on for that when you get that book out. Let me know. Oh yeah, I’ll let you know for sure.
I’ll let you know for sure. It’s my deadline is coming up, so. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. You know, but it’s been good. I, I, Vic Arena, who was the was the acting boss in one of the, the head of one of the [00:33:00] two families in this war his two sons are kind of cooperating and helping me with the book. So yeah, so far, so good.
Hopefully I’ll get it done. And yeah, I’ll let you know. I’d love to come back on. Thank you so much for having me. All right. Well, thanks a lot for coming on. Larry, you you are one of the I don’t know, to me, you know, like one of the big names in this business, you got to get some bigger names. I had Gus Russo on one.
See, there you go. I’m talking about like, like people that really take a legitimate. You know, newsman’s look at the mob, you know, kind of the whole thing, not just some guy that’s telling his personal life story from his, from his view, making himself look good. Look how generous and confident I was when I killed this guy
all right. Well, guys, don’t forget, check the show notes. For links to get this book, you need to get this book. And don’t forget, I like to ride motorcycles. So watch out for motorcycles when you’re out there on the [00:34:00] streets. And if you have a problem with PTSD, you’ve been in the service. Be sure and go to the VA website and get that hotline number.
Or if you happen to have a problem with drugs or alcohol, you don’t have to be in the former serviceman to get some help and. Former Gambino soldier, Anthony Ruggiano has a hotline number on his website and he’s a drug and alcohol counselor down in Florida. So maybe you could have Anthony Ruggiano be your drug and alcohol counselor.
If you have a problem, let me know. If you do that, I’d really like to hear that story. I won’t reveal your name. I promise. So be sure and like, and subscribe and. Tell your friends about the show and share on social media and all those kinds of things. So thanks a lot, guys.
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