Getting Better with Jonathan Van Ness

We’re back with the second half of our special two-part episode about algorithms and artificial intelligence, featuring returning guest Meredith Broussard. Yesterday, we got the T on ChatGPT, and learned why we can’t trust algorithms to be fair or objective. Today, Jonathan and Meredith get personal about their encounters with algorithms, and consider what an equitable tech industry could look like. Plus, deepfakes, TikTok, the Supreme Court, and Jonathan’s take on M3GAN!

Meredith Broussard is Associate Professor at the Arthur L. Carter Journalism Institute of New York University and Research Director at the NYU Alliance for Public Interest Technology. She is the author of Artificial Unintelligence: How Computers Misunderstand the World (MIT Press). Her work has been featured in the New Yorker, the New York Times, the Atlantic, BBC, Wired, the Economist, and more. She appears in the 2020 documentary Coded Bias and serves on the advisory board for the Center for Critical Race & Digital Studies.

Make sure to check out Meredith’s new book More Than A Glitch, out now from MIT Press.

You can follow Meredith on Instagram and Twitter @merbroussard, and at meredithbroussard.com. MIT Press is on Instagram and Twitter @mitpress.

Curious for more? Here are some people, projects, and other resources mentioned in this episode, all linked in the episode entry on jonathanvanness.com:

Algorithmic Justice League (Joy Buolamwini)

Algorithms of Oppression (Safiya Noble)

Blueprint for an AI Bill of Rights

DAIR Institute (Timnit Gebru)

Deb Raji’s work

Design Justice (Sasha Costanza-Chock)

Mimi Onuoha’s work

Race After Technology + Viral Justice (Ruha Benjamin)

Rumman Chowdhury’s work

Take My Hand (Dolen Perkins-Valdez)

The Gender Shades Project

The Markup (Julia Angwin)

Under the Skin (Linda Villarosa)

Weapons of Math Destruction + ORCAA (Cathy O’Neil)

Follow us on Instagram @CuriousWithJVN to join the conversation. Jonathan is on Instagram @JVN.

Transcripts for each episode are available at JonathanVanNess.com.

Find books from Getting Curious guests at bookshop.org/shop/curiouswithjvn.

Our executive producer is Erica Getto. Our editor is Andrew Carson.

Our theme music is “Freak” by QUIÑ; for more, head to TheQuinCat.com.

Curious about bringing your brand to life on the show? Email [email protected].

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Every time you interact with a targeted advertisement, use a drop-down menu, or scroll through TikTok, you’re engaging with an algorithm. And these algorithms are anything but objective. This week, Meredith Broussard returns to the show for a special two-part episode about algorithms and artificial intelligence—and how they shape our daily lives.

In part one, we’re learning all about chatbots like ChatGPT, the origins of algorithmic bias, and WTF Francis Galton has to do with all of this. Join us tomorrow for part two, featuring an in-depth discussion about gender and racial bias in algorithms, the current state of the tech industry, and the future of AI.

Meredith Broussard is Associate Professor at the Arthur L. Carter Journalism Institute of New York University and Research Director at the NYU Alliance for Public Interest Technology. She is the author of Artificial Unintelligence: How Computers Misunderstand the World (MIT Press). Her work has been featured in the New Yorker, the New York Times, the Atlantic, BBC, Wired, the Economist, and more. She appears in the 2020 documentary Coded Bias and serves on the advisory board for the Center for Critical Race & Digital Studies.

Make sure to check out Meredith’s new book More Than A Glitch, out now from MIT Press.

You can follow Meredith on Instagram and Twitter @merbroussard, and at meredithbroussard.com. MIT Press is on Instagram and Twitter @mitpress.

Curious for more? Here are some people, projects, and other resources mentioned in this episode, all linked in the episode entry on jonathanvanness.com:

Algorithmic Justice League (Joy Buolamwini)

Algorithms of Oppression (Safiya Noble)

Blueprint for an AI Bill of Rights

DAIR Institute (Timnit Gebru)

Deb Raji’s work

Design Justice (Sasha Costanza-Chock)

Mimi Onuoha’s work 

Race After Technology + Viral Justice (Ruha Benjamin)

Rumman Chowdhury’s work

Take My Hand (Dolen Perkins-Valdez)

The Gender Shades Project

The Markup (Julia Angwin) 

Under the Skin (Linda Villarosa)

Weapons of Math Destruction + ORCAA (Cathy O’Neil)

Follow us on Instagram @CuriousWithJVN to join the conversation. Jonathan is on Instagram @JVN.

Transcripts for each episode are available at JonathanVanNess.com.

Find books from Getting Curious guests at bookshop.org/shop/curiouswithjvn.

Our executive producer is Erica Getto. Our editor is Andrew Carson.

Our theme music is “Freak” by QUIÑ; for more, head to TheQuinCat.com.

Curious about bringing your brand to life on the show? Email [email protected].

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When a train carrying hazardous materials derailed in East Palestine, Ohio, just over a month ago, the team at River Valley Organizing sprang into action. River Valley Organizing is a multi-racial, multicultural working class organization that radically builds community throughout the Ohio River Valley—and they’ve been calling attention to the possibility of a train derailment like this for years. Since this catastrophic incident, they’ve been advocating for residents’ health and safety, holding political and business leaders accountable, and getting the word out about what’s going on in Ohio.

Today, we’re releasing a conversation Jonathan recorded on Instagram Live with Emily Wright and Justin Garner from River Valley Organizing. Listen in to learn more about this environmental and public health disaster, and what the future could look like for residents of Columbiana County.

This is still a fast-developing situation, so make sure to follow River Valley Organizing for the latest. They’re on Instagram @rivervalleyorganizing, Twitter @RiverValleyOrg, and Facebook @rivervalleyorganizing. Their website is rivervalleyorganizing.com.

Emily Wright is the Development Director for River Valley Organizing.

Justin Garner is the Communications Director and LGBTQIA+ Rep for River Valley Organizing.

Follow us on Instagram and Twitter @CuriousWithJVN to join the conversation.

Jonathan is on Instagram and Twitter @JVN and @Jonathan.Vanness on Facebook.

Transcripts for each episode are available at JonathanVanNess.com.

Our executive producer is Erica Getto. Our associate producer is Zahra Crim. Our editor is Andrew Carson.

Our theme music is “Freak” by QUIÑ; for more, head to TheQuinCat.com.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

A pastor, a president, and a foreign political leader step into a National Prayer Breakfast. What happens next? A whole lot of mingling between church and state. This week, Dr. Lauren Turek joins Jonathan to explore how evangelicals have influenced American politics—domestically and abroad—over the last half century. It’s a story of televangelism, missionary trips, and politicking of biblical proportions.

Lauren Turek is an associate professor of history at Trinity University in San Antonio, TX, where she teaches courses on modern United States history, U.S. foreign relations, and public history. She is the author of To Bring the Good News to All Nations: Evangelical Influence on Human Rights and U.S. Foreign Relations, published with Cornell University Press. Lauren is currently at work on a book about the Congressional debates and alliances that shaped U.S. foreign aid funding during the twentieth century and is co-editing a Routledge Handbook on the history of religion and politics in the United States.

You can follow Dr. Turek on Twitter @laurenfturek, on Instagram @laurenturek, and at laurenturek.com.

If you’re curious for more, Dr. Turek recommends the following:

Anthea Butler's White Evangelical Racism: The Politics of Morality in America

Kristin Kobes Du Mez’s Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation

Melani McAlister’s The Kingdom of God Has No Borders: A Global History of Evangelicals

Jeff Sharlet’s The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power

Follow us on Instagram and Twitter @CuriousWithJVN to join the conversation.

Jonathan is on Instagram and Twitter @JVN and @Jonathan.Vanness on Facebook.

Transcripts for each episode are available at JonathanVanNess.com.

Our executive producer is Erica Getto. Our associate producer is Zahra Crim. Our editor is Andrew Carson.

Our theme music is “Freak” by QUIÑ; for more, head to TheQuinCat.com.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sports are about so much more than competition. Through athletics we learn life skills, we move authentically, and we find community. This week, Verity Smith joins Jonathan to discuss the importance of trans inclusion in sports, his personal experiences on the rugby pitch, and how we can stay resilient in this critical moment for LGBTQIA+ rights.

Verity Smith (he/him) is the Mermaids’ Trans Inclusion in Sports manager. Verity is a gay trans man and has a disability. He played elite women’s rugby in both codes for 26 years and now plays for the Leeds Rhinos in the wheelchair rugby league  superleague. He also supports D&I for the International Gay Rugby and World Gay Games. 

Verity believes that all young people should have access to sport, believing in education, not discrimination.

Mermaids is a UK-based organization that supports transgender, nonbinary, and gender-diverse children, young people, and their families.

You can follow Verity on Instagram @smithverity and on Twitter @VeritySmith19.

You can follow Mermaids on Instagram @mermaidsgender and Twitter @Mermaids_Gender, and at mermaidsuk.org.uk.

Curious for more? Revisit our episode with Lui Asquith about trans rights in the UK here, and check out our full collection of episodes about LGBTQIA+ rights and representation at jonathanvanness.com/topic/lgbtqia.

Follow us on Instagram and Twitter @CuriousWithJVN to join the conversation.

Jonathan is on Instagram and Twitter @JVN and @Jonathan.Vanness on Facebook.

Transcripts for each episode are available at JonathanVanNess.com.

Our executive producer is Erica Getto. Our associate producer is Zahra Crim. Our editor is Andrew Carson.

Our theme music is “Freak” by QUIÑ; for more, head to TheQuinCat.com.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Gorillas. Orangutans. Bonobos. Chimpanzees. Humans. Can you name a more iconic Fab Five? This week, Dr. Laura Simone Lewis joins Jonathan for an episode all about our beautiful primate family tree! Listen in to learn how we’re related, what makes each species unique, and why we need to step up conservation efforts for our closest living relatives on the planet.

Dr. Laura Simone Lewis is a postdoctoral fellow at the University of California, Berkeley, and earned her PhD from Harvard in the department of Human Evolutionary Biology. Laura studies how social cognition has evolved in chimpanzees, bonobos, and humans. Besides hanging out with great apes, she loves swimming in the ocean, making pottery, and going on solo travel adventures around the world.

You can follow Dr. Lewis on Twitter @LauraSimoneLew.

Here's a link to the chart on human evolutionary pathways. And here's a link to the great ape family tree, with a photo of Jonathan at the center!

We have so much more ground to cover with Dr. Lewis, and we’re already planning a follow-up episode about social cognition in chimpanzees and bonobos. If you have a question for Dr. Lewis, leave us a voicemail or text message at (917) 960-2980, or share your message with us at jonathanvanness.com.

Follow us on Instagram and Twitter @CuriousWithJVN to join the conversation.

Jonathan is on Instagram and Twitter @JVN and @Jonathan.Vanness on Facebook.

Transcripts for each episode are available at JonathanVanNess.com.

Our executive producer is Erica Getto. Our associate producer is Zahra Crim. Our editor is Andrew Carson.

Our theme music is “Freak” by QUIÑ; for more, head to TheQuinCat.com.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dust isn’t just something that accumulates between our couch cushions. Dust is ALL OVER Earth—there are 20 trillion grams of it!—and it plays a critical role in weather events, climate change, and how we understand Earth. This week, Dr. Sarah Aarons joins Jonathan to discuss her research on mineral dust, and her research trips to Antarctica. Plus, Jonathan asks hard-hitting questions, like: Is household dust really just dead skin cells? Does flushing your toilet make an aerosol mess? And how do you stay caffeinated near the South Pole?

Sarah Aarons was born and raised in Alaska. She is an Assistant Professor of Geosciences at Scripps Institution of Oceanography at UC San Diego.

Follow us on Instagram and Twitter @CuriousWithJVN to join the conversation.

Jonathan is on Instagram and Twitter @JVN and @Jonathan.Vanness on Facebook.

Transcripts for each episode are available at JonathanVanNess.com.

Our executive producer is Erica Getto. Our associate producer is Zahra Crim. Our editor is Andrew Carson.

Our theme music is “Freak” by QUIÑ; for more, head to TheQuinCat.com.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Roses are red, violets are blue, we have a Valentine’s Day episode for you! This week on Getting Curious, we’re learning all about the history of Valentine’s Day, with returning guest Dr. Sally Holloway. Was the holiday always about love and romance? When did roses and chocolates become go-to gifts? And what would people living in Georgian England think of celebrations like Galentine’s Day?

This episode is a perfect match with Dr. Holloway’s first conversation with Jonathan, all about love and courtship in Georgian England! Here’s a link to listen.

Dr. Sally Holloway is a historian of gender, emotions, and material culture in 18th and 19th century Britain. She is a Vice Chancellor's Research Fellow at Oxford Brookes University, and the author of The Game of Love in Georgian England (2019).

You can follow Dr. Holloway on Twitter @sally_holloway.

Looking for a Valentine’s Day treat? Grab a copy of The Game Of Love In Georgian England, now in paperback.

Follow us on Instagram and Twitter @CuriousWithJVN to join the conversation.

Jonathan is on Instagram and Twitter @JVN and @Jonathan.Vanness on Facebook.

Transcripts for each episode are available at JonathanVanNess.com.

Our executive producer is Erica Getto. Our associate producer is Zahra Crim. Our editor is Andrew Carson.

Our theme music is “Freak” by QUIÑ; for more, head to TheQuinCat.com.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dogs. We snuggle up with them on the couch. We pamper them with treats and toys and songs. We even give them prime placement on our dating profiles! But how—and why—did we become BFFs with canines? And what does our love for dogs say about us? This week, anthrozoologist Dr. maythe han and her dog Frank join Jonathan to explore this special bond between humans and dogs.

maythe han is an anthrozoologist of more-than-human kinship with dogs. Addressing the question ‘how can we live a good life together?’, her research foregrounds embodied imagination and creativity in exploring how dogs and their humans become-with one another. She uses art and music to understand and communicate the ways in which dogs and their humans co-produce and re-produce systems, structures, and sensibilities involved in multispecies experiences and environments. She lives with her border collie, Frank, who is a very good boy. 

You can follow maythe on Instagram and Mastodon @odetodogs for her artwork, on Twitter @maythehan, and at maythehan.com. And make sure to check out her gorgeous custom animal portraits—she’s taking commissions!

Follow us on Instagram and Twitter @CuriousWithJVN to join the conversation.

Jonathan is on Instagram and Twitter @JVN and @Jonathan.Vanness on Facebook.

Transcripts for each episode are available at JonathanVanNess.com.

Our executive producer is Erica Getto. Our associate producer is Zahra Crim. Our editor is Andrew Carson.

Our theme music is “Freak” by QUIÑ; for more, head to TheQuinCat.com.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Starting in the late 1800s, a group of Syrian immigrants settled in America. Many of them took up peddling as a career. When American newspapers described these peddlers, it was often in derogatory ways—and through terms of queerness. This week, Dr. Charlotte Karem Albrecht joins Jonathan to explore this moment in Arab American history, how it's been remembered, and what it reveals about “the sexual, racial, and gender machinery of American society.”

A note from Team JVN: In this episode, Dr. Karem Albrecht and Jonathan discuss how Arabs and Arab Americans were understood by white Americans. As part of that discussion, we reference various historical documents that include anti-Arab and anti-Semitic language. If you'd like to pre-screen those moments, you can find them in the transcript at jonathanvanness.com.

Charlotte Karem Albrecht is an Assistant Professor of American Culture and Women’s and Gender Studies at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, where she is also a core faculty member in the Arab and Muslim American Studies program. She is also an avid lover of plants and mushrooms and her five fur babies.

You can follow Charlotte on Twitter and Instagram @CKaremAlbrecht. You can learn more about her work at www.charlotteka.com. 

Make sure to check out her new book Possible Histories: Arab Americans and the Queer Ecology of Peddling, published by University of California Press.

A free ebook version is available through Luminos, University of California Press’s Open Access publishing program. Head to www.luminosoa.org for details.

And if you’re curious for more, Dr. Karem Albrecht recommends:

Alixa Naff’s Becoming American: The Early Arab Immigrant Experience

Mejdulene Shomali’s Between Banat: Queer Arab Critique and Transnational Arab Archives

Susan Schweik’s The Ugly Laws: Disability in Public

Sarah Gualtieri’s Between Arab and White

Randa Tawil’s work on Syrian interpreters

Vivek Bald’s work on Bengali migrants

Follow us on Instagram and Twitter @CuriousWithJVN to join the conversation.

Jonathan is on Instagram and Twitter @JVN and @Jonathan.Vanness on Facebook.

Transcripts for each episode are available at JonathanVanNess.com.

Our executive producer is Erica Getto. Our associate producer is Zahra Crim. Our editor is Andrew Carson.

Our theme music is “Freak” by QUIÑ; for more, head to TheQuinCat.com.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices