Give and Take

In this conversation, Scott Jones and J Kameron Carter explore the complex themes of whiteness, authoritarianism, and the historical context of race in America. They discuss how whiteness is not just a racial identity but a civilizational logic that has shaped political structures and ideologies. The conversation delves into the implications of Trump as a revelation of underlying authoritarian tendencies in American democracy, the role of W.E.B. Du Bois in understanding these dynamics, and the intersections of political theology with contemporary issues. They also touch on the importance of the Black church's perspective and the need for a deeper understanding of history to navigate the current political landscape.

Special Guest: J. Kameron Carter.

On this episode of Give and Take, I talk with Topher McDougal, author of Gaia Wakes: Earth's Emergent Consciousness in an Age of Environmental Devastation. In the book, McDougal explores the provocative idea that the planet itself might be waking up—that Earth, long treated as a backdrop to human drama, is revealing itself as a conscious, responsive system in the midst of ecological crisis.

We talk about what it means to think of the Earth as a living, even sentient, entity; how this vision challenges modern science and philosophy; and why embracing a more relational way of seeing our world could be key to surviving the environmental devastation we face. It’s a wide-ranging conversation about philosophy, ecology, and the deep stories we tell about our place in the cosmos.

Special Guest: Topher McDougal.

My guest today is Coltan Scrivner, a behavioral scientist who has spent years studying the psychology of why we’re drawn to the dark, the eerie, and the unsettling. His brand-new book, Morbidly Curious, takes us deep into the strange territory of horror films, true crime, haunted houses, and all the things we’d rather pretend we don’t think about—but secretly can’t look away from.

In our conversation, we explore why being curious about the morbid isn’t a flaw—it’s a fundamental part of being human. From evolutionary survival to modern entertainment, Coltan makes the case that leaning into our fascination with the macabre can actually teach us something about ourselves and the world around us.

It’s a provocative, fascinating, and—yes—morbidly fun discussion.

Special Guest: Coltan Scrivner .

For our 300th episode of Give and Take, we’re doing something different. Instead of hosting, Scott Jones steps into the guest chair. His friend—and former guest of the show—Jane Rosenzweig takes the reins as interviewer. Together, they look back at the journey of Give and Take: the conversations that shaped it, the surprising turns along the way, and what Scott has learned from asking (and sometimes dodging) big questions over 300 episodes. They also talk about what it’s like to live out loud on a podcast, the art of listening, and where the show might go from here. It’s a candid, celebratory, and reflective conversation you won’t want to miss.

Special Guest: Jane Rosenzweig.

On this episode of Give and Take, Scott Jones sits down with author and pastor Mandy Smith to talk about her new book Confessions of an Amateur Saint. In it, Mandy offers an honest, grace-filled exploration of what it means to stumble faithfully toward holiness in an ordinary, imperfect life. Together, they unpack how spiritual growth often looks less like polished sainthood and more like vulnerability, struggle, and deep dependence on God. It’s a conversation about embracing weakness, finding freedom in honesty, and learning that sainthood is less about striving and more about surrender.

Special Guest: Mandy Smith.

On this episode of Give and Take, Scott Jones talks with Beatrice Marovich about her provocative new essay, “Is Theology Dying?”, published in the Spring 2025 edition of The Other Journal. Marovich, author of Sister Death: Political Theologies for Living and Dying, reflects on the state of theology in our contemporary world—its dwindling institutional presence, its surprising resilience in unexpected places, and its evolving role in public discourse. Together, they explore whether theology’s apparent decline is a death knell, a transformation, or something stranger altogether.

You can find "Is Theology Dying?" here.

Special Guest: Beatrice Marovich.

In this episode Scott is joined by historian and freelance journalist Molly Worthen. Her newest book is Spellbound: How Charisma Shaped American History From The Puritans To Donald Trump. They explore the themes of charisma, storytelling, and personal belief. They discuss the complexities of faith, the journey from observer to practitioner, and the role of charismatic leaders in shaping cultural narratives. Worthen shares her personal experiences of conversion and the challenges of reconciling faith with reason, while also reflecting on the importance of community and the need for meaningful stories in a chaotic world. The discussion touches on historical figures, modern political charisma, and the ongoing search for understanding in both religious and secular contexts.

You can find out more about Molly and her work at her website: https://mollyworthen.com.

Special Guest: Molly Worthen.

In this episode of Give and Take, Scott Jones sits down with pastor and author Jack Haberer to discuss his new book, Swimming With the Sharks: Leading the Full Spectrum Church in a Red-and-Blue World. As political polarization increasingly shapes—and often divides—American congregations, Jack brings hard-earned wisdom, theological depth, and pastoral sensitivity to the challenge of leading churches across ideological lines.

Drawing from decades of ministry in diverse settings, Jack shares real-world stories, practical insights, and a hopeful vision for what it means to shepherd a church that refuses to split down party lines. The conversation explores how pastors can stay rooted in the gospel while navigating cultural landmines, how churches can become spaces of faithful disagreement and spiritual growth, and why unity doesn’t have to mean uniformity.

Whether you’re a church leader, a congregant, or just someone curious about faith in a polarized age, this episode offers honest reflections and tangible guidance for engaging the tension with grace and courage.

Listen in and discover how to swim with the sharks—and lead with love.

Special Guest: Jack Haberer .

On this episode of Give and Take, I talk with Lauren Jackson, writer of The Believing Project at The New York Times. Lauren explores the strange, beautiful, and sometimes baffling terrain of American religious life—what we believe, why we believe it, and how belief shapes the way we live. We talk about the origin of her project, the state of faith in an increasingly secular age, and why the stories we tell about belief might be more important than ever. From revival tents to deconstruction TikToks, Lauren brings a literary and deeply curious lens to the spiritual landscape. It’s a conversation about belief, doubt, devotion, and the stories that make us.

In this conversation, Lauren shares her experiences growing up in the Mormon Church in Arkansas, exploring the complexities of faith, identity, and the search for meaning in a secular world. She discusses the challenges of navigating religious beliefs in modern society, the role of religion in politics, and the cultural shifts surrounding spirituality. Lauren reflects on her personal journey, the longing for connection, and the importance of understanding diverse belief systems in today's world.

Takeaways

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Personal Background

Special Guest: Lauren Jackson.

My guest is David Litt. His newest book is It's Only Drowning: A True Story of Learning to Surf and the Search for Common Ground. Litt, a former Obama speechwriter moves to the Jersey Shore and learns to surf with the help of his brother-in-law: a tattooed, truck-driving Joe Rogan superfan. David, the Yale-educated writer with a fear of sharks, and Matt, the daredevil electrician with a shed full of surfboards, had never been close. But as America’s crises piled up and David spiraled into existential dread, he noticed that his brother-in-law was thriving. He began to suspect Matt’s favorite hobby had something to do with it. David started taking surf lessons. For months, he wiped out on waves the height of daffodils. Yet, after realizing that surfing could change him both in and out of the water, he set an audacious goal: riding a big wave in Hawaii. He searched for an expert he could trust to guide and protect him—and when he couldn’t find one, he asked Matt. Together, they set out on a journey that spanned coasts, and even continents, before taking them to Oahu’s famously dangerous North Shore. It’s Only Drowning is a laugh-out-loud love letter to surfing—and so much more. It’s an ode to embarking on adventures at any age. It’s a blueprint for becoming braver at a time when it takes courage just to read the news. Most of all, it’s the story of an unlikely friendship, one that crosses the fault lines of education, ideology, and culture tearing so many of us apart.

Takeaways

Summary

In this engaging conversation, David Litt discusses his experiences during the COVID pandemic, reflecting on themes of workaholism, personal growth, and the importance of embracing fear. He shares insights from his journey of learning to surf, using it as a metaphor for navigating life's challenges. The discussion also touches on the cultural dynamics of Washington, the need for joy in political discourse, and the significance of empathy in understanding others. David emphasizes the importance of trying new things and finding balance in a chaotic world, ultimately inspiring listeners to embrace change and seek personal fulfillment.

Chapters

00:00 Navigating Life Insurance and Pandemic Blues

Special Guest: David Litt.