GT Radio - The Geek Therapy Podcast

#364: Josué, Lara, and Link discuss traditions, from singing songs at camp, to watching A Christmas Story every year. We talk about why traditions stick around-or don’t. (We didn’t talk about Fiddler on the Roof, but we all thought about it.)

Josué (00:00)
Welcome to GT Radio on the Geek Therapy Network. Here at Geek Therapy, we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona and I am joined by Link Keller and Lara Taylor. Lara you’re up. What are we talking about today?

Link (00:10)
Hello?

Lara (00:12)
Hey!

I am up. I want to talk about traditions. So every year my family and I go to a YMCA family camp for Labor Day weekend. And this year and last year, some things were a little different. A lot of the traditions that had been so important to us were either not there or we had to fight to get them. And…

I think it made me appreciate when we did get to do the things like certain songs that we sing, certain programs that we run, made me appreciate those things a little more. So I wanted to talk about geeky traditions. So one of the things that I think about when I’m thinking of geeky traditions, Nina and I started watching Hamilton every 4th of July. That’s a thing that we do.

or you know my mom used to watch, we used to watch, what is it? Christmas story, every Christmas, those kinds of things. But also, I know of some other geeky traditions around here like going to Comic Con every year. And I think I’ve been missing that. And so, I don’t know, I just wanted to talk about traditions. Why we like them.

what we do when they’re not available to us, you know, and I don’t know, how we kind of pivot if we have to, or fight for things to come back. Because that’s another thing that happens in Geekdom.

Josué (02:00)
I’m curious when you talked about the family camp and how things were different this year. Did it feel like something was missing?

Lara (02:06)
Yeah, I did. I felt like, I don’t know, it felt less like community. Like we had no, there were less activities that brought everyone together to meet each other. It felt kind of bare bones. The one that really got me that we fought to get back this year was, there’s a song that we sing at the end of every campfire and have for, I think it’s like 30, 31

that a friend of mine wrote and he passed away last year. So I felt like it was really important. One of the reasons I went up to camp to volunteer last summer was to help Brink keep that tradition alive and sing the song. And so this year they weren’t gonna do it. And a bunch of our, bunch of people who had been there before were like, no, we need to sing this song, it’s really important. And so it got budged on and I got to sing the song.

and it felt really empowering to have a little bit of change and also frustrating that I had to, that I had to go through that and fight to keep something that had been around for such a long time. And was important, clearly important to a lot of people who were there.

Josué (03:22)
Yeah, yeah, for how many years was that song?

Lara (03:25)
30, like 30, 31 years, yeah. And it was written for the camp by a guy who went to the camp.

Josué (03:28)
It’s on.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, maybe we can maybe that’s a part of it too of like.

Lara (03:40)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (03:43)
How quickly? Like, why would you, how does that stop being a traditional all of a sudden so quickly? Yeah.

Lara (03:44)
Hehehe

Right? Yeah. And I think part of it is sometimes there’s like at this, it almost became a thing where it wasn’t something they did last year because they had so few people who had been there before who knew the song. But I also don’t know what’s in the minds of the people running it right now. So, who knows what’s going on and the reasons behind it. All I know is we spoke up.

and we got to sing our song again. And that was really nice.

Josué (04:27)
What does it mean to you though?

Lara (04:30)
What does it mean to me?

Josué (04:31)
Yeah, like the song, like having that.

Lara (04:34)
For me, and I think this gets into what traditions mean to people, I think that this song, one, it reminds me of home. I think of camp as my home away from home. It is a thing that connects me to it. We’ve talked before on the show about how music can bring back memories. Music can… I remember the first time I sang this song 28 years ago. So…

It’s a big thing for me. And I think more so now that my friend who wrote it passed away last year, it feels like a way of connecting to him and keeping his memory alive. But in general, like traditions, there’s like a, it depends on the tradition, but a lot of them are ways to know what’s gonna happen, to have some kind of connection and tether to structure how things are gonna be.

When somebody changes up the schedule at camp, like everybody’s like, Oh no, what’s going to happen next? I don’t know. Um, I don’t know. It’s, it gets so.

It gets to the point where I’ll even outside of camp, the drive up to camp. Um, I know this road, it’s a windy road in the Santa Cruz mountains. I know the road like the back of my hand, I can drive it really fast. But now one part of it is washed out and it’s one lane. And so it takes me a lot longer because I don’t know what to expect anymore because the road has changed. Um, but those are things that we have to kind of deal with because, you know, rainstorms wash out roads.

Um, I don’t know. It’s, um, things were different this year and it didn’t, it felt good, but not good. Like there were some cool things that got added that I liked, but also like. It was a mixed, a mixed weekend, I think. And so it got me thinking about the things that I try to connect with when I’m at home, um, to kind of tie me to the things that I love.

I don’t know.

Josué (06:47)
Yeah. Traditions are comforting, right? I think, I think that’s why we go back to them over and over again. And then that’s quite an experience to have all of those different parts of this one thing that you do every year. That for the majority of 30 years, so many pieces were the same, such and so many pieces were different. Sounds, I don’t know. Was it, I don’t know. Sounds almost like unsettling in a way.

Lara (06:48)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, it’s interesting because they even picked this year to renumber the cabins. They renumbered the cabins. And then we always stay in the same cabin, right? Well, and they, not only did this year we get moved to a different cabin, but then also the cabin that we got moved to was the same number as the cabin that we were in before, but a different cabin. So.

Josué (07:23)
Thanks for watching!

And you always stay at the same cabin. I’m assuming every year. Yeah.

Lara (07:49)
It’s the same, yeah, it’s just everybody was kind of thrown off because uh, people will show up and they’ll, oh, we’re in cabin one. I mean, uh, 12. Um, so things kind of shaken up. It, a lot of changes, good and bad. Uh, and I think, I don’t know. I have a different perspective on like, I feel like this year has given me a little perspective on how to take those things in stride, but also fight for things because

I think some of those changes might’ve broken me in past years and I’ve been like, forget this, I don’t want to be here anymore, you know?

Josué (08:28)
I mean does it feel like those traditions are still…

in place or like are some of them gone? I mean are they just different?

Lara (08:36)
I feel like the ones that are most important to me are ones that are that we’ve kind of established to stick around, I think. So I think that’s why I feel better about it. I’ve learned to let the other things go. Not everything always has to stay the same. And that is not something you would have heard me say 10 years ago.

Josué (08:48)
Okay.

Link (08:57)
Hehehehe

Josué (09:04)
I was gonna make an old joke, you know, but yeah, you know, I, yeah, I’m not, I’m not, I’m not.

Lara (09:07)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, don’t, don’t. I’m gonna, my birthday is next week. Come on.

Josué (09:13)
Your birthday? How old are you gonna be?

Lara (09:17)
Josué, you’re gonna be 40.

Josué (09:20)
But not before you turn 40.

Lara (09:22)
It’s true. It’s true. Thank you. Birthday traditions. Oh. When I was younger, it would be going out to dinner with my family. Sometimes it would be the same. For a long time, it was the same restaurant. Other times, it wasn’t.

Link (09:22)
I’m sorry.

Josué (09:26)
Happy early birthday, Lara. Do you have a birthday traditions?

Yeah.

Lara (09:47)
birthday party pretty much every year when I was younger. We went to, we went roller skating a lot. And then the Renaissance Fair is usually around my birthday. So that is, that’s a big deal. So I have no idea what my birthday traditions are, what we’re gonna do. So I don’t know if any of them are gonna get, Nina is planning the whole thing. So I have no idea what’s going on, which is kind of…

Josué (10:16)
But you always do something. Okay. I’m asking all these questions because I’m, I’m fascinated because I have, I have barely any traditions. I have a brilliant structure in my life, let alone habits or rituals or anything. Um, let alone tradition.

Lara (10:18)
Always do something. Yeah. Always do something.

Mm-hmm. I know you’ve got some traditions, like, I don’t know. What, not if you don’t go to San Diego, you’re watching all the previews that come out from San Diego Comic-Con, all the trailers. Because you’d be texting them to me.

Josué (10:46)
Kind of… Kind of…

I get, I mean, I got hyped about stuff. So it doesn’t matter what, when it happens. The only thing that the closest thing that I’ve had to, to a tradition was it was a geeky tradition, which was E3 every year. Like that was like a holiday for me. I would, I would make sure that those times, you know, I was watching every single press conference live. Like that was, we had a few geek therapy watch parties. Yeah, yeah. That was all to cater my own.

Lara (10:54)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Link (11:03)
RIP

Lara (11:03)
Mm-hmm.

We even had watch parties started at the in the Geek Theory Discord.

Mm-hmm.

Josué (11:19)
to have people follow along or join me on that. And when E3 stopped, I felt it. I still feel it. It’s like, it sucks now. Sucks so much.

Lara (11:29)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (11:33)
Yeah, that’s like the closest thing that I have to a tradition. But it was something that I looked forward to every single year. And it was honestly like my favorite time of year because it was the most hype that you can imagine about all my favorite things. Comic Con’s okay, but E3? Give me E3.

Lara (11:48)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

E3 has the game trailers and reveals. Comic Con, not so much on the games. Yeah.

Josué (12:01)
much so much good stuff and the terrible press conferences

like a terrible press conference to make me happy. I don’t know why.

What about you, Link? What do you feel about traditions? Do you have any? I’m sorry, Link.

Link (12:20)
Yes.

Josué (12:23)
Cool, thank you.

Lara (12:24)
Great. Podcast over.

Link (12:28)
Yeah, yeah, I think traditions are important as a way to build and strengthen and maintain social connections between people. I think it’s also a way to connect with ourselves as we move through space-time. It’s a way to reconnect.

with ourself in the face of our impending mortality, we know that a great big change will eventually come for us all and so the things that we can keep consistent, there’s a little magic in that. As far as my own personal traditions, I…

you know, this is, it’s hard to talk about because I feel like COVID impacted so much stuff that we’re touching on here. Friendsgiving was a very important tradition to me for over a decade, either, you know, hosting it myself or getting a friend to host it and doing all the, you know, the planning and everything, make sure everybody shows up. That’s always been important to me.

I more recently have been spending time with some of my friends who live up here who like to rewatch movies regularly and so that there are seasonal movies. When it’s 4th of July time, we watch Jaws. And then when it’s summertime, it’s time to watch all of the Pirates movies and stuff like that.

Lara (14:03)
Love it.

Josué (14:10)
All of them?

Link (14:12)
I don’t watch all of them, but they do watch all of them. I caught two this year, the first and the last, which I think is very funny. But stuff like that. They also do a yearly Tim Burton Fest in, historically in January as a way to cope with the end of the holiday seasons. It’s like, oh.

Josué (14:13)
Okay.

Lara (14:14)
But they do.

Link (14:37)
Tracey would get kind of depressed about it and be like, okay, I’m gonna watch Tim Burton is her favorite. She’s like, I’m gonna watch all the Tim Burton movies and make like bingo cards to play games with it. It was very fun. Though more recently she switched that Tim Burton Fest to summer instead of January because she was like, oh, I get more depressed in the summer. So maybe I should save it for then. And I was like, oh yeah, seasonal depression. Fun. Trying to think what else.

Lara (15:00)
Mm-hmm.

Link (15:07)
We watch Prince of Egypt, every Passover. I think that one’s very, very fun for me. I love that. I like to watch certain of my favorite spooky movies in the spooky season and Over the Garden Wall is of course very high up on that list of rewatches. I’ve already listened to the soundtracks twice.

Lara (15:12)
that was one of ours.

Link (15:36)
this month. So yeah, I like having movies that we’ve returned to because there’s a consistency in the story that we are consuming, but we change over time. And so the things that we care about and we respond to shifts over time, not necessarily drastic changes, but…

Lara (15:37)
heh

Link (16:03)
It’s always interesting to return to that stuff and get a little bit more insight on how we’ve grown as people compared to the static piece of media that we’re enjoying together.

Josué (16:20)
So your tradition is usually with other people, not solo.

Link (16:23)
Mm-hmm.

I think if I have any solo traditions.

Josué (16:31)
definition can a tradition be a solo thing? I don’t know.

Lara (16:34)
Yeah, I think so. If you do something like in a repetitive way.

Link (16:35)
Yes.

Tradition may not be the best word to describe it, but it can describe it.

Lara (16:45)
Yeah. I mean, I think you could. I think there are ways that traditions like I’m thinking about Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur coming up. And like there are things you do together communally, but there are also things that you do on your own self-reflection and like having a yearly time to reflect and decide what you want your next year to be. I think there are ways.

We mostly think of traditions as something that we do together or in a community, but there’s a way for traditions to be individual.

Link (17:24)
I think there’s also traditions that started out as a social thing and then that other person either is no longer available to share in that space with you, whether that’s distance or they died. Yeah.

Lara (17:38)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I used to watch the Rose Parade New Year’s morning with my mom every year. And before I dragged Nina into watching it with me, which apparently she watched it anyway, I would watch it on my own. Yeah. I think traditions can also, they can also morph, right? Into other things with other people, or like…

I’m trying to think of a good one of how my traditions have like, I mean, that is one. I watched with my mom and now I watch with Nina. And then this year, Nina’s mom, this is not going to be the yearly tradition, but we are going to actually go to the Rose Parade in Pasadena on New Year’s Day and watch it together. So it’s still continuing the tradition, but it’s different.

Josué (18:44)
One of the things about including other people in it, right, is like the passing of traditions or, are there any that you picked up from parents or other relatives or other people? Like it wasn’t something that you started, it’s something that you kind of, the torch was passed on to you or you kind of picked it up and kept going with it?

Lara (19:05)
uh, going to San Diego Comic-Con every year, uh, except for the last couple of years. I never went. And then Nina worked in the industry and so I started going and then it became a thing. Um, and since COVID we haven’t been, and that’s the first time, uh, like since for her, since like 2010.

Josué (19:10)
How does that work?

Lara (19:33)
she hadn’t been and for me since 2012.

Josué (19:37)
So that’s 30 years now, you haven’t gone to, is it still a tradition? Is it gone? Is it over? Ha ha ha.

Lara (19:39)
Yeah. I think it’s on a hiatus. I think, I mean, I think I’m more comfortable than she is. So I think who knows what’s gonna happen next year. But there are other things that I have friends who had the tradition of going to KublaCon a board game convention in the Bay Area every Memorial Day weekend. And so I’ve started.

picking that up. I went one year before COVID and then I’ve gone the last two years. And so that’s something that I’ve picked up on and wanting to try and go to every year.

trying to think other traditions. I mean, oh, Link thought of one.

Link (20:22)
Oh, I thought of one. I’m shocked. My stepmom, when I was a kid, one of the Christmas, New Year, Hanukkah season time traditions is she would make coquito That I guess she got that tradition via my sister’s… No.

from like an old boyfriend who was Puerto Rican. And I guess she really liked coquitos. So she started making it every year. And then I haven’t done it every year, but the past couple of years, I have made an attempt to make a big bottle of coquitos so I can bring it to whatever festivities I’m invited to and share in that. I think that’s a fun way to pass on. It’s a little weird because I’m not connected to the like-

cultural element of it at all. But I still think it’s valuable to be able to say, like, this is a Puerto Rican special drink, and it’s really yummy, and I want you to try it.

Josué (21:30)
you make it every year. That’s it’s your tradition. Yeah.

Link (21:32)
I make it most years. I’ve made it… I didn’t make it last year. I made it the year before.

Lara (21:34)
Mm-hmm.

Link (21:41)
And then I think I made it like three or four years in a row. And then COVID interrupted it. And then I tried to hop back on and then didn’t do it last year. I’ll probably try and do it this year. Yeah. Yummy beverage.

Josué (21:57)
Very sweet.

Lara (21:59)
Yeah, I think.

Link (22:01)
Well fuck you up.

Lara (22:02)
Similarly, like, yeah, also. Most of the traditions that I have kind of adopted are Nina’s traditions, because when you’ve been together in a relationship for a decade, you kind of, like, I sucked her into the Y camp stuff, and she sucked me into mostly her Jewish traditions, which include lots of good food, and good times with good people. We haven’t been able to have our.

yearly Hanukkah party since COVID. And now that we’re kind of ready to have that again, our kitchen is about to be under remodel. We’re really hoping, fingers crossed, that it’s done before Hanukkah this year, because it would be really nice to do that. And we’re planning on, when the kitchen’s done, also starting up our monthly board game night with friends to kind of have that tradition going and connect with people.

Um, that’s not one that we necessarily got. I got that. We just, we didn’t get it from each other. We just decided this is the thing that we want to do, um, to help build our community. So.

Link (23:15)
actually during COVID within my friend group we started a weekly zoom hangout and that was a really important tradition and especially that first I want to say year but it’s really more like that first 18 months real struggle and you know it sort of petered off after a while.

Lara (23:25)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Link (23:39)
I played some Jackbox games on Zoom the other night with some friends and I had this like real big feeling about it where I was just like, oh, I missed this. I didn’t think that I would like, obviously I missed the in-person socializing and I’m starting to get a little bit more of that now. But like I’m playing, sitting in my room.

on zoom playing on my phone typing in stupid little things for quip lash and I’m like, oh, I missed doing this. I want to wish I was still doing this a little bit, even though it does also deeply depressed me. There’s something kind of nice about having this consistent thing that we’re doing together, especially around gaming because you know, you know me, I love that shit so much. So yeah, that was that was an interesting realization the other day where I was like, oh, I’m

Miss Weekly Hangouts on Zoom? I hate Zoom. Why do I feel this way?

Josué (24:43)
Okay, I need y’all to convince me to get some traditions because I still don’t see the appeal. No, no, like the E3 thing, it was like, I don’t know, it’s happening every year, I’m hyped about it, I’m gonna just make time to make sure that I watch it. If it were 30 years ago, I would have at least, I don’t know, set the VCR to record it or something. Like I wanna make sure that I don’t miss it. So it’s like, I don’t consider watching a TV show.

Lara (24:49)
You still don’t see the appeal.

Mm-hmm. Traditions.

Mm-hmm.

Josué (25:12)
know when it comes on a tradition that’s kind of how it was for e3 in a way

Lara (25:16)
Hmm. But it’s interesting. Like it wasn’t just watching the TV shows. Also, like the hype and the communicating with other people, whether you realize it or not, you’re sharing it with the community. Hey, did you see this thing? Did you see that thing? I really want to play this game. What game were you most excited about that kind of thing? But traditions don’t have to be. Yeah, it is almost everyday.

Josué (25:40)
To be fair, that’s almost every day for me.

Link (25:42)
Hahaha

Lara (25:44)
But traditions don’t necessarily have to be a yearly thing. They could be a monthly thing or a weekly thing too. Like I haven’t, I haven’t like brought this up in a while, but like the weeks that we don’t record or the weeks that I miss my Friday night gaming with cast, Nina notices I’m more grumpy. The appeal is the connection with other people. The appeal is…

Josué (25:50)
What’s the appeal? What’s the appeal? Confess to me.

Is this why I’m grumpy all the time? Because I don’t have traditions. Damn. Okay.

Lara (26:15)
Maybe. So, do you want to be grumpy? Do you want to not be grumpy? Maybe you need traditions. Although, think about it. Recording with us, that is a tradition.

Josué (26:21)
No, I don’t want to re-grumpy all the time.

That was a job.

Is a job a tradition?

Link (26:36)
It can be.

Lara (26:38)
Is it a job though? You can have traditions at jobs. Yearly picnics at my, I have yearly picnics at a company I worked at. Yearly, um, like we would have, um, a yearly holiday get together in my office and everybody looked forward to it. And then there would be a yearly thing.

another holiday thing another few weeks later and we all bitched about having to go. So, yeah, you can have traditions at work too.

Josué (27:12)
I do, I do think, um, when you were talking about at the beginning about how, you know, like losing a tradition that can be, that can be really hard. And at least this year, I mean, you still went to the camp, things were different, but you still had the experience of going to camp. And I must mean that in some ways every year, it’s, it’s a little bit different. Different people come. Um, yeah, things are a little bit different, not as different as this year, but, uh, yeah.

Lara (27:29)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it’s true.

Not as different as this year, yeah.

Josué (27:41)
That’s part of the appeal as well, I’m assuming. It’s kind of like you were saying, Link. It’s like that one thing stays the same, but everything else changes. So there’s still that context around it, always. But it’s still kind of grounding, I guess.

Lara (27:44)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And this year, like, again, at camp, things change. There were a lot of good things. I got to see people that I only ever get to see this one time of year. I get to reconnect and watch their kids that I have known since they were like three or four. They’re now like in college and taller than me. And I’m like, oh, my gosh, what happened to these kids? But also I get to welcome new people in.

and share the experience and what made me love this place with them. And that’s also why I like when I took Nina to Disneyland for the first time, getting to share that experience with her. That’s a tradition for me that we also haven’t done since COVID started. We haven’t been to Disneyland. And that’s a thing that, like, I want to get back to. I feel like I can feel it in my bones that I need to go back.

But like being able to share that with her and kind of see it through a new person’s eyes, being able to share traditions is also a really cool thing to share something you love with somebody else and have them appreciate it and take what they’re gonna take away from it.

Josué (29:13)
We’ve brought up COVID a few times. I think that’s a big part. I know that was a big part of why it’s been so hard because so many of us lost that consistency, that, you know, and that consistency of the everyday. Um, but the consistency of like, Oh, it’s the holidays. Oh, it’s this event. Oh, this thing isn’t happening this year. And we’ve been doing it every year. Did you do camp in 2020? Still did it.

Lara (29:21)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. They didn’t do it the big one on Labor Day weekend. What they did was they spread families out throughout the summer. So it was definitely the weirdest experience I’ve had because I didn’t normally it’s me and Nina and my sister and her family and my dad all in one cabin. And our friends Anjelica and Doug used to come to and then they stopped when COVID and they haven’t been back with us. But like that year.

Josué (29:50)
Okay.

Heh.

Lara (30:10)
It was just me and Nina in a cabin and my sister and her family in another cabin. And they encouraged us to not really mingle too much except with the families that we really wanted to. So like all our activities were scheduled with my sister’s family, but like, we didn’t really see many other people that whole year. And then the next year they started back on the Labor Day weekend. And it was again, weird.

because it wasn’t quite the same, the activities were scheduled out differently. But yeah, COVID screwed up a lot of traditions. And also helped us build new ones, I think, too.

Josué (30:54)
So you tried to convince me on all the good reasons, all the good things about traditions. Have you ever had a client where you kind of encouraged them to kind of start some sort of tradition to either socialize more, connect more with friends or family?

to kind of celebrate or face some kind of situation or life event.

Lara (31:27)
Definitely. It always depends on the client, but I’ve definitely had clients who, especially around the death of a family member, need some kind of touchstone and some kind of way to connect with that person or the family that are still here. So I’ve done that. I think about for my…

And sometimes I use self-disclosure. So I’ve talked about the loss of a friend and how I’ve connected with people who I’ve lost. So my friend James, who passed away on his birthday, I make sure that I do something super geeky. And it used to be Comic-Con and I haven’t been in a while. So now it’s like, well, I’m going to watch some anime that he might like, or I’m going to make sure that I…

plays a Legend of the Zelda game, because that was his favorite thing. Making sure that I’m connected, I feel connected with him. And I think, I mean, I’ve had clients talk about wanting to eat a certain kind of food, because that’s their loved one’s thing. It was their favorite dish. I’m gonna go to their favorite restaurant on this day to remember them. Whether it’s an anniversary of a death, or a birthday, or…

even a holiday that was really important to that person. So, yeah, definitely it’s good to have that either on your own, right? These are traditions, some of those traditions are ones that I had on my own, or with family to kind of get together, or family or friends that knew the person to kind of remember them.

Sometimes it can be good to also mark, like you said, another kind of event, life event, like graduating from college, right? I finished this thing and remember having a tradition around that and it can spiral into other things. Or you can do what I do and just go to Disneyland for everything.

Josué (33:43)
Yeah, I don’t celebrate graduating because that just reminds me of student debt. And, um, yeah.

Lara (33:49)
True, true.

Link (33:50)
I think actually that’s a really interesting point we haven’t really touched on is that there are individual traditions that you repeat many times. And then there are traditions culturally that we have that we only do one time or a couple of times. But culturally, socially, we celebrate it in similar ways.

Lara (34:07)
Mm-hmm.

Link (34:14)
for each person, like having graduation parties, that kind of thing.

Lara (34:18)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (34:19)
True, true, true. That’s interesting, yeah.

Link (34:21)
or promotion at the job or new job, quitting a terrible job, turning 40, all of the things. I do think that’s cool. I mean, yeah.

Lara (34:24)
or weddings or retirements, 40th birthdays.

Josué (34:24)
Yeah, 40th birthdays.

is interesting yeah like what do i do for i’m getting a divorce what do i do have a divorce party that’s a thing yeah

Lara (34:39)
Mm-hmm.

Link (34:45)
divorce party. Hell yeah.

Lara (34:47)
the divorce party.

Yeah.

Link (34:52)
Yeah, so I mean, Josué, I think the benefit is, is it can be a way that you can use to frame the way that you think about moments in your life as you move through time. It can be a way to connect you to people and things that you care about. I think ultimately though, the important thing is it’s something that you are choosing to opt into or choosing to continue to share. Because what’s the saying?

Lara (35:18)
Mm-hmm.

Link (35:22)
traditions are just peer pressure from dead people. So if it’s a saying, so if a tradition is not working for you, don’t feel obligated to keep doing it. Make new ones, find ones that have meaning for you, because I think that’s what it comes down to, is it is a process of meaning making in our lives. That is the purpose traditions serve.

Josué (35:26)
is that a saying?

Lara (35:28)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I don’t think we’ve sold him on it.

Link (35:55)
Yeah, you know, he says that, but he’s here every week.

Josué (35:56)
Nah.

Lara (35:59)
I know. I know.

Josué (36:00)
Again, that’s not really a tradition.

Link (36:03)
You say that, but you also go boo hoo when we miss it too many weeks in a row.

Josué (36:04)
I am here voluntarily though. I am here voluntarily.

Lara (36:07)
You are here, voluntary.

Josué (36:13)
I get very grumpy when we miss it. Yeah. Because I’m afraid that if we don’t, if we skip too many weeks, we won’t come back. That’s one of my concerns. Yeah.

Lara (36:14)
Mm-hmm.

Huh, okay, okay. Like with COVID, if we skip too many years, we won’t go back.

Josué (36:35)
To what?

Lara (36:37)
to anything. Like I haven’t gone to Disneyland, to San Diego Comic Con, to E3. E3’s not thing anymore. Yep. It did.

Link (36:38)
to Disneyland.

Josué (36:46)
E3 died. E3 died of COVID. Yep.

Link (36:50)
Yeah, RIP. In peace.

Lara (36:55)
Yeah.

Josué (37:05)
Well, were there any other geeky perspective?

Lara (37:08)
We’re all mourning E3 right now.

Link (37:12)
It’s really sad.

Josué (37:16)
It’s just terrible. Everything that replaced it. Yeah.

Link (37:18)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Okay, well, let me let me submit to two out of three of my co-hosts. I would like for this spooky season to make into a tradition me giving you guys spooky movies to watch like I did three years ago.

Lara (37:45)
Absolutely, Link. I already have a list from you. You can give me another one. It’s fine.

Link (37:51)
What do you think? You in? You in, Josué? Hell yeah. All right. We’re, and we’ll, um, we’ll just say Marc agrees. He’s not here to, he’s not here to argue.

Josué (37:54)
I’m in. I’m in. Yeah.

Lara (38:01)
He’s not here to protest. Ha ha ha.

Link (38:05)
Ugh.

Josué (38:06)
So for the last few years you have given me a list of recommendations. Last year it was all shutter movies I believe.

I remember watching, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know. I remember, I remember Nicholas Cage movie last year.

Link (38:16)
Shudder has good stuff. I don’t know what to tell you.

I can give you guys some really bad ones from Tubi What kind of vibe are we going for? This tradition.

Lara (38:24)
No

Oh.

Listen, Link, right now, my mindset, I’m about to watch the last episode of the AMC’s interview with the vampire. That’s the headset I’m in right now. And that sounds actually pretty damn good.

Link (38:50)
Gay vampires, got it. Filing that away for later. Like that’s not already on my mind. I’m sorry.

Lara (38:53)
Love it.

I mean, honestly, that’s the link link. That’s not that hard to go to that leap with. I like vampires. I like werewolves. I like what? But like, yeah, gay up the horror. It’s fine. I love it.

Josué (39:15)
Any other geeky traditions you want to bring up, Lara? Or Link?

Lara (39:21)
Link already got the Prince of Egypt because that’s a big thing in this house too. And you have to sing it. You have to sing with the movie. Like that’s, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Link (39:31)
Absolutely. Very important. I have a tradition of every year complaining about how there aren’t enough Hanukkah movies. That’s a tradition. I do it every year.

Lara (39:42)
That’s a good one.

Um, I may be about to break a tradition of mine of never beating a Legend of Zelda game. I’m so close to beating Tears of the Kingdom, so close. So I’m gonna have to come up with a new tradition of beating all of them. No, not gonna happen.

Link (40:01)
Oh boy! New tradition!

Josué (40:12)
I think Dr. Who for like almost 10 years had a Christmas special every year.

Lara (40:22)
Mm-hmm, then one year they did a New Year’s one, right?

Josué (40:24)
Then they messed it all up. Then they got creative. And it was, and the community, and I remember the Doctor Who community being, it was not great. It was not great to just have that kind of thing. But I thought that was pretty cool. You know, like you look forward every year, you’re not rewatching the old one. You’re like, you get a new one.

Lara (40:27)
Hehehe

See? This is what happens when people get creative.

Mm-hmm.

Josué (40:54)
Nobody really knows what to expect, but on Christmas morning, all the Whovians get to watch the new Christmas special together.

Lara (41:04)
I feel like that’s similar to like, I really, I accept.

Josué (41:08)
Not too many shows are like, do that kind of thing.

Lara (41:12)
Except for this year, I have been looking for every year I look forward to when like the cable TV shows start up again, like network television to and

Josué (41:21)
Yeah.

Lara (41:26)
Yeah, this year that’s not happening. And I, for good reasons, good reasons. And yet I feel like I’m missing out on things, right? I’m missing my shows, I’m missing my, all those cliffhangers that all my procedurals left me on, I’m gonna have to wait. And some shows that I was looking forward to watching again have been canceled. Yeah, but this time of year is definitely.

Josué (41:47)
having cancelled. Yep.

Lara (41:54)
a time where I’m usually like, yes, my shows are coming back.

Screw the summer. Let me watch these fall premieres. And that is not… Screw the summer, fall premieres. Mm-hmm. Listen, Josué, it is 82.8 degrees in my office right now. Screw the summer.

Josué (42:07)
Screw the summer.

Not a fan of summer, got it. The fall premieres make you feel cooler.

Lara (42:25)
I’m not a child anymore. I’m not a kid in that it gets, or a college student with a summer break. So, I’m old.

Josué (42:31)
I know you’re not a kid anymore. I know.

Lara (42:36)
But yeah, it doesn’t necessarily have to be a holiday season, but like different seasons we go into, like yeah, different things happen. We expect different things.

Josué (42:49)
Yeah. Yeah, again, my life has been consistently inconsistent. So I don’t really have anything like that. The closest thing to a tradition is getting movie recommendations from Link around Halloween. The closest thing. I have to really try hard to make it a thing. Send me the list now.

Lara (42:57)
Mm-hmm.

Link (43:05)
Hehehehe

Lara (43:07)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Link (43:16)
Hahaha!

Lara (43:18)
Yeah.

Josué (43:19)
forever again.

Link (43:22)
It’s going to take me at least three business days to fully make you guys bespoke recommendations the way that I like to.

Lara (43:22)
Yeah, I-

Josué (43:31)
Mm-hmm. Gotcha. I have to fill out a survey first just to see where my interests are. Yeah.

Lara (43:32)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Ah. Heh.

Link (43:35)
Yeah, to our listeners, if any of you would like this service, please reach out to me on Discord. I’m available.

Lara (43:40)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

But yeah, Josué, I don’t even think there’s like a game that you… I mean, with Destiny, when there was a new like patch or whatever, a new expansion for a while there you wanted to play. But yeah.

Josué (44:01)
Yeah, those are, yeah, some of that is hype, right? Like, with Genshin Impact, with Genshin Impact, I remember every three months there would be an update and me and Gian we would even like have wishing parties together. We’re, you know, it’s like, you’re like wishing for the new characters and all this stuff. And I don’t know, but that was like, that was like one year every three months.

Lara (44:05)
Traditions can be hype!

Mm-hmm.

Josué (44:32)
doing that it doesn’t didn’t feel we’re playing loose with the word tradition here which is okay which is okay but I don’t I don’t really think I have any again I’m not against them just it’s been it’s been hard it’s been hard to do that yeah

Lara (44:36)
Didn’t feel like a tradition to you.

It’s just not for you so far.

Well now you’re gonna have a spooky time tradition.

Josué (45:00)
The one tradition. I didn’t realize I already had this tradition.

Link (45:06)
I think you should start a new tradition, just for you, where every-

other month or every three months you buy yourself a new plant.

Lara (45:19)
Oh.

Josué (45:20)
No, I’m done with plants. I’m done with plants. You have no idea. I took it too far. Now I’m scaling back. Yeah.

Lara (45:23)
hahahaha

Thanks for watching!

Link (45:30)
Mm.

Lara (45:31)
I’m guessing the same with your Gundam models. Are you done with those?

Josué (45:34)
Exactly the same. Went, I took it too far. Yep. A nice tradition with like, you know, one every now and then would have been great. Yeah. Would have been a lot better.

Link (45:45)
I do think there is something about being neurodivergent and talking about traditions conceptually is meaty as an idea.

Lara (45:57)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (45:58)
I don’t understand. They don’t make sense to me.

Link (46:01)
I mean, I think just from the perspective of the way that many neurodivergent people process time and then applying that to the way that traditions are often chronologically based, it makes sense that maybe they don’t always match up very well.

Lara (46:01)
Mm-hmm

Josué (46:12)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I do like what you’re saying of like, every month as a reward to yourself, you know, like you do X, Y, or Z thing. Little things like that. Like I think that sounds wonderful.

Lara (46:38)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (46:40)
I can’t imagine myself doing that.

Link (46:42)
For a while, every Friday, I would post on my group chat a picture of a big alligator and write, it’s flat fuck flatfuck Friday. That’s a fun tradition. I could start that one up again. Would you enjoy that? Would you enjoy weekly pictures of alligators? Crocodiles occasionally.

Lara (46:42)
No.

I’m sorry.

Josué (46:58)
There you go.

Lara (47:01)
hahahahahahahahahahahahah

Josué (47:04)
It’s Adri.

Is it, if I’m on the receiving, if I’m in that chat group and I’m just receiving them, is, am I part of the tradition? Am I, is it a tradition for me if I’m just a recipient? I’m not partaking.

Lara (47:15)
Yeah.

Link (47:19)
If you are receiving it in the literal sense of you are looking at it and thinking about it for more than a millisecond, I think that counts. I think that totally counts.

Josué (47:28)
Okay.

Lara (47:29)
Yeah.

Josué (47:33)
All right, ciao. Add me.

Link (47:33)
Traditions are not always in actions. Sometimes they’re just about presence. Not gifts, presents but physical presence. Fuck. You get it. You guys get it.

Josué (47:38)
Okay.

Lara (47:38)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Josué (47:48)
Listeners recommend traditions for us, especially me, or include me in yours. Yeah. Include me in your.

Lara (47:54)
Especially this way.

Josué (47:59)
weird group chats so I can be a part of some tradition. Yeah, as long as I don’t have to be the one doing something, I think it’s much more likely.

Lara (48:03)
get a tradition.

That’s why I think…

Josué (48:14)
What do you think?

Lara (48:15)
I think you have been part of a tradition. TAGGS

Josué (48:21)
That’s not a tradition. It’s a tradition for people who like, it’s like, oh, like they wanna go every year. And it’s like, you know, that’s not, it doesn’t count.

Lara (48:22)
It is a tradition.

You’re still there!

Link (48:31)
I don’t think that the event counts as a tradition, but I do think that your emotional reaction to it is a tradition, and that it’s the six weeks before TAGGS time to lose my mind. I also participate in that.

Lara (48:37)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

That’s the tradition. Josué’s traditional pre-TAGGS. Bra- mental breakdown. Hehehe.

Josué (48:56)
But is it a tradition when you lost your mind and you didn’t get it back? I mean, you’re supposed to, it’s supposed to be cyclical, right? It’s supposed to be like turn it on and off.

Link (49:03)
Ha ha

Lara (49:03)
I mean, if it just keeps getting broken and more broken, then that’s what it is.

Josué (49:09)
And that’s the tradition, it’s just more broken. I think it’s been consistently, equally broken. Yeah. Nice try, Lara, but no, I don’t agree.

Lara (49:20)
Josué just because it is not your tradition, you are part of people’s traditions, right?

Josué (49:27)
Yes, yes, but it’s not like a tradition for me again. Like it’s not, yeah. But I do think it’s cool that it’s becoming a tradition for like, oh, like it’s tagged this year. Like I want to go, I’m going to make it, you know, going to make time for it. It’s become the thing. Yep. I don’t have that luxury.

Lara (49:30)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Josué (49:46)
Yep. I’m gonna be there. Loosely blues on mind.

Lara (49:53)
The Apple events aren’t a tradition for you anymore either, huh?

Josué (49:57)
I mean, I took the time off, but this one I couldn’t even watch the whole thing. I couldn’t even finish it this time. I think I’m done with them.

Lara (50:01)
If you are taking time off for something…

Josué (50:10)
I think I’m done. If that was a suggestion, it’s over. It’s done. No more.

Lara (50:15)
Okay. Folks, help Josué find a tradition that he’ll enjoy. Please.

Josué (50:22)
Please, please. Lara, any closing thoughts.

Lara (50:27)
Traditions are important if they matter to you. Yeah, I look forward to building new traditions with the people I care about. So, yeah.

Josué (50:45)
Link closing thoughts.

Link (50:47)
Uh, the rules are all made up. Do what brings you joy. And, uh, memento mori, baby.

Josué (50:56)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (50:58)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (50:58)
And then, yeah, just send traditions my way. You can send them through any of our community channels, which are in the show notes.

Lara (51:04)
Hehehe

Josué (51:09)
For more geek therapy, visit geektherapy.org. Remember to geek out and do good. I’ll be back next week.

Link (51:17)
mmBye!

Conversation Topics:

* Change
* Consequences
* Cultural representation
* Death
* Difficult emotions
* Family
* Finding Oneself/Identity Development
* Resilience
* Working with others
* Tradition

Relatable Experience:

* Meaning-making
* Blended Family
* Coming of age/Getting older
* Death
* Loss (other than death)
* New Life Event (New Rules)

Questions? Comments? Discuss this episode on the GT Forum.

—

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Find us at www.GeekTherapy.org | @GeekTherapy | Lara: @GeekTherapist | Link: @CHICKENDINOSAUR | Josué: @JosueACardona

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The post Traditions appeared first on Geek Therapy.

#363: The crew dives into a discussion about Babel: colonization, oppression, propaganda, and wanting to burn down the system.

Josué (00:01.444)
Welcome to GT Radio on the Geek Therapy Network. Here at Geek Therapy, we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona. I am joined by Lara Taylor, Link Keller.

Lara (00:13.164)
Hey.

Link (00:14.944)
Hello.

Josué (00:16.62)
And today’s Master of Ceremony topic picker and my favorite colonizer, Marc Cuiriz

Lara (00:28.77)
Wow.

Link (00:29.349)
This is how we’re going to start? Okay.

Marc (00:29.712)
I… Wow, he just came out and straight attacked me like that. Oh my goodness. Okay.

Josué (00:36.348)
Yep, yep, yep.

Lara (00:38.046)
Now I know what kind of episode this is gonna be.

Josué (00:40.464)
Mm-hmm.

Marc (00:42.206)
You know, I actually take the time and actually read a book. And by read, I mean, listen to a book for the first time in years. And this is how he treats me. And it was a book that he was talking about reading.

Josué (00:46.62)
Yeah.

Josué (00:54.716)
Which book is that? Babel.

Marc (00:58.7)
Babel You know, I don’t even know anymore.

Josué (01:02.224)
It’s babel It’s babel. But in the book they call it babel, right? When you in the audiobook, when you heard it? No. You don’t. Okay.

Marc (01:08.837)
I think… No, I think they said Babel. No, they didn’t. They said Babel. I’m thinking about it wrong. Yep, they said Babel.

Josué (01:17.841)
Why do you want to talk about Babel

Marc (01:19.765)
Oh my goodness. So there’s quite a bit and I had thoughts about it. And there’s two big things, two big things. Yeah, two main things that I really drove from it aside from just literary critiques. One was the idea of translation and how when oftentimes work, literary works or

Josué (01:29.288)
Feelings?

Marc (01:49.673)
things are being translated from one form of media or writing to another, a lot of the times the meaning behind the original piece can get misconstrued, misinterpreted, I can’t even form words anymore. There you go. Or, like, they just, the meaning gets lost altogether and it takes on a completely different form.

Lara (02:07.705)
interpreted.

Marc (02:18.773)
And so I wanted to kind of talk, yeah, which is like the main focal point of the whole entire book. So that’s something I wanted to talk about. And then the other big thing that the book kind of talks about and addresses is good old colonialism and how it’s bad. Don’t do it. Don’t colonize things anymore.

Josué (02:19.141)
which is a big part of the book.

Josué (02:41.32)
Okay, sounds good. Who are you speaking to in particular?

Marc (02:46.045)
everybody. This is a side tangent just to just to already get out of the gate. So there was a TikTok that I came across a while ago. I think I sent it to you guys where it was this woman who talked about how the new American dream is to leave America and go to a small village in like

or in like Asia and just kind of immerse yourself into their culture, you learn their things, and you often find that, you know, how their systems are run are, at least to this particular

per TikToker that it benefited them. Like healthcare was more easily accessible, all these other things. And as I was listening to it, I was like, so the new American dream is colonization. That was my initial thought. I was like, so what you’re saying is we want to leave America because our conditions are not suitable for us because of all sorts of different factors.

and instead move to a rural town in a foreign country, utilize their resources for your own benefit.

Josué (04:15.208)
make you feel.

Marc (04:16.681)
I was like, it made me question, like, how is it that we’re not realizing that things are becoming, are coming around full circle again? Where we as a younger generation can highlight all these terrible things that have happened and how we want to put a stop to things, we want to make a change for it. And then we are essentially doing the same thing, but we’re changing. We’re…

changing the language of it. So to people, it has a different meaning.

Marc (04:54.157)
which kind of ties both themes together. But that was like one thing that like stuck out to me. And so then reading Babel, that was like that theme of like, you know, utilizing the resources of other countries for the benefit of either yourself as an individual or in Babel’s case, it’s to benefit Great Britain.

Josué (05:20.924)
Yeah. I mean, I get what you’re saying, right? The book, it’s very, it doesn’t, I mean, colonization is probably the central theme of the book. And it shows how the UK just is an oppressor of different countries. And then even though it’s kind of a, you know, it is historical fiction in this book, there’s a magic system and there’s all this other stuff.

but it’s based on a lot of truth. And there’s a difference between like going and joining a community versus going and exploiting its resources and its people. And in the case of the book, right, then using those same resources.

from those countries to train them to then continue to exploit the resources of the same countries and others. So yeah, I think there is a big difference between just like, oh, we’re coming over to join your community versus, yep, I’m just going to take advantage of everything you have. That’ll be great.

Lara (06:31.682)
Let me take that healthcare and all the food that you have in the area and all of that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Very different. It’s different if you are going to also bring something to the community.

Josué (06:38.004)
Mm-hmm. Just take it. Just take it.

Josué (06:46.64)
Yeah, I mean, but that and that’s part of the argument, right? Like the colonizer will always think that they are contributing, that they’re doing some sort of good.

Lara (06:52.063)
Oh.

Lara (06:57.73)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (06:58.96)
Yeah.

Marc (06:59.51)
Mm-hmm. And I’m sure for a lot of people, this isn’t always the case, that if they do emigrate from America and they choose to reside in a different country, I’m sure there’s plenty of people out there that are contributing, that are doing what they can to actually try to integrate themselves into the community.

and try to be productive rather than just kind of utilizing their resources simply because it’s more accessible or it’s more affordable or whatever the reason might be. But I also think that for every person that is doing it with that, with those good intentions and that are able to actually carry out those intentions, there’s also just as many people that are using that as an excuse to go and exploit.

these different communities simply just because, you know, they can. And then they kind of like, then they’re able to kind of capitalize off of it by making, you know, either Tik Toks or other forms of social media posts, becoming an influencer and trying to promote this lifestyle. So they’re capitalizing and gaining from it without really contributing or, you know, doing anything.

that’s worth of value to that community.

Josué (08:26.352)
Now, a colonizer mindset does not make necessarily a colonizer, I think, right? Like there’s, there’s a matter of like power and oppression and a whole bunch of other stuff that I think goes into, into that.

Marc (08:38.361)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (08:43.068)
But yeah, it’s just kind of disgusting to see those influencers and they’re like, oh, this is, for example, Puerto Rico gets it in multiple, in multiple ways, right? Like I was born there and Puerto Rico is, if you look it up, it’s considered one of the last colonies in the world. And the United States has a couple where

they don’t have the same rights as all the other American citizens in the country, which is pretty fucked up. And then, but then you also have, you can look up videos like here’s how to go and like live tax-free in, in Puerto Rico and like take advantage of all of these benefits that the actual residents of the island don’t get, but that you can get if you come in with that mentality of, we can call it exploitation for sure.

Yeah, it’s, uh, it’s frustrating.

Marc (09:46.389)
Yeah, and like you said, like, yeah, and it’s like you said, where it’s not necessarily so much of like, the colonizer mindset doesn’t, you know, make a colonizer or, you know, anything like that. But I do think that it’s kind of a dangerous game that’s being played because it’s opening that door for potential further action to take place where it’s like, well,

Josué (09:48.068)
and even at that scale.

Marc (10:16.049)
so many people are, you know, moving to this particular country, let’s just try to work with them. And then, you know, then it’s like kind of strong arming or, you know, there’s all sorts of potential scenarios that could potentially play out that could then create or recreate colonization and that colonizer mentality and actions. So like, that’s just kind of one of the things that like I’ve started noticing a lot more.

on all forms of social media and I kind of have that hesitancy and I have that kind of like, you know, that doesn’t seem or doesn’t feel right to me.

Josué (10:56.496)
Yeah. Well, and it’s, um, the actual location has a lot to do with that as well. Because if they’re incentivizing it, that’s, that’s the real, like a country in a city can, can control these things. Like when we talk about gentrification at the, at the local level, like cities are encouraging this kind of stuff.

Marc (11:04.173)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (11:20.726)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (11:21.596)
You could put a stop to a lot of this, including, you know, there’s immigration policies in different countries and things like that can kind of stop that. But in the book Babel, right? Like the thing is that there’s the UK has so much power because basically they control, there’s a magic system in this world and they control the source of the magic almost entirely.

And so they really are an oppressor, right? Like they go in and they take whatever they want because they can, they are literally more powerful than any other country. They have the biggest military, but they also have magic powers on top of everything else.

Marc (12:07.429)
Yeah, which is, which they, they take from the countries that they’re, they’re trying to, to strong arm and trying to, you know, colonize or they’re trying to just take over by force because they’re utilizing their resources, their language for the betterment of purely themselves that they then turn back and use on the very people.

Josué (12:36.056)
I saw a TikTok from the author, Rebecca K.F. No, Rebecca F Kuang is that correct? And she had just won an award for novel of the year or like fantasy novel or something like that of the year in the UK. And she was like, how is this possible? Like, this is such a huge critique of the UK and its history.

Marc (12:44.172)
Yeah.

Lara (12:55.267)
Hmm.

Marc (12:58.453)
I’m sorry.

Josué (13:03.852)
How is this possible?

Lara (13:06.998)
That is like the ultimate like obliviousness, right? Like there are so many we can talk about how people don’t see themselves like in the empire or whatever in Star Wars or.

Josué (13:11.588)
Right? Right.

Josué (13:19.452)
Link? What?

Link muted.

Link (13:26.084)
I’m unmuted. What happened to Lara?

Josué (13:29.82)
Oh, she’s frozen.

Marc (13:30.015)
Oh no.

Lara (13:31.51)
I don’t know. I think it’s frozen.

Link (13:33.924)
Uh oh. I was, but now I’m.

Josué (13:33.936)
I thought you were going to say something.

Josué (13:39.156)
Did you forget?

Link (13:40.553)
Yes.

Josué (13:41.851)
I’m out.

Link (13:45.252)
I’m going to respond to what Lara was saying when she disappeared, so now I don’t know.

Marc (13:45.401)
This is going to be a fun episode dude.

Lara (13:49.646)
Well now I’m frozen, or you’re all frozen.

Marc (13:51.585)
This is gonna be fun.

Josué (13:51.792)
you were you were you were reacting to

Josué (13:58.056)
I don’t remember now either.

Link (13:59.357)
Hahaha

Marc (14:01.621)
Yeah, I couldn’t remember what it is Lara was trying to say.

Lara (14:06.418)
I was saying…

Marc (14:07.905)
This is gonna be fun to edit.

Josué (14:09.088)
Oh, the obliviousness. She said that it was like the ultimate obliviousness that the country could not remember, could not like see that the entire novel is a critique of. Yeah, I don’t think so either. What do you think it is? What would you call it?

Lara (14:10.814)
The obliviousness.

Link (14:21.472)
Yeah, I don’t think that’s obliviousness.

Link (14:27.236)
It’s another tool in the tool book of control. If you give awards to things that critique you, then people are like, well, they’re listening to critiques and now people won’t do a violent revolution.

Josué (14:47.965)
To be fair, that award was not given by like the monarchy or the government, right? It was just a literary organization.

Marc (14:48.033)
Yeah.

Link (14:53.028)
No, but the point stands, right? It’s literary organizations and publishing companies, like they own the means of production.

Marc (15:05.625)
Yeah, and I mean, we kind of see that with all sorts of different companies nowadays. Like I just heard on the radio this morning about PETA trying to basically capitalize off of this phone call that Pete Davidson had made to them where he was like cussing them out and they made a costume about it. And then they’re like, oh, you know, like we’re making this costume about it. Haha. So funny.

but also buy the costume. And every time you buy the costume, like all the proceeds go to this organization. It’s like a hundred dollar costume, but like it’s their way of kind of like trying to exercise that control because here’s someone or, you know, people providing a critique and they’re like, well, let’s, let’s spin this. We’ll capitalize off of it. Haha, this is so funny. But also like, let’s do something about it so that way we can.

retake control over the situation.

Link (16:06.268)
Yeah. Basically, it’s just, it’s not obliviousness. It’s very calculated.

Josué (16:08.145)
Why do you think that?

Josué (16:12.9)
Yeah. So why has this stuff been bothering you so much Marc? It’s in the book. It’s on your tiktok

Marc (16:20.21)
Yeah, I-

Josué (16:21.78)
It’s on your PETA.

Marc (16:24.385)
You know, I think what it kind of like, what kind of really sticks out to me with it is it kind of goes back to a topic and a conversation that I know we’ve touched on plenty of times before in different episodes about this idea of being a third culture kid. Where, you know, for me in particular, you know, as I’m a first generation Mexican American,

My dad came here from Mexico when he was a little kid, things like that. But for me, growing up being born and raised here in America, I was always one of those kids where I was too white to be Mexican, but too Mexican to be white. And like, I don’t speak Spanish. I don’t understand Spanish. So that just further ostracized me. And so looking at the idea of, of like,

the colonialism factor and sort of the struggles of colonialism and how it’s relating to the main character Robin because he himself identifies as that third culture kid because he can’t relate to his native culture and he also can’t relate to, you know, the UK society because he’s

half and half.

Josué (17:55.504)
Yeah. Robin is somebody who, who right in the novel, he is taken from his city in China as a child and raised in the UK.

But he’s… How do they describe him? He’s like… White passing enough. Enough.

Marc (18:15.093)
He’s white passing. Yeah, he’s white passing enough where like, if you look at him from afar, you could think he’s like any other typical white male, but it’s when you’re like, you’re actually up, you know, you’re up close and personal, you’re actually talking to him, you can clearly make out his Asian features and things like that. Um.

Josué (18:40.777)
I don’t think this is messed up, but you could play Robin in a movie, in the movie version. Ha ha ha.

Lara (18:45.852)
Hehehehe

Marc (18:46.173)
You know, and that’s the other thing too, is that I think that that’s another reason why the colonialism thing also kind of like is sticking with me because that’s another main thing, is that I’m often misidentified. Like I cannot tell you how many people just assume that I’m Asian or that I have some sort of Asian heritage. Like, and there are some people that

Lara (19:02.207)
Mm-hmm.

Marc (19:15.677)
even when I explain to them my heritage and everything, they don’t believe me. They’re like, no, that doesn’t sound right. No, no, you have to be Asian. And people will refuse to acknowledge the fact that I’m not and they’ll continue to misidentify me. And that’s something that like growing up, I at first I kind of took offense to it and then I kind of started to own it a little bit, you know, it was a ha funny joke and.

Josué (19:25.62)
I kind of love it.

Marc (19:43.697)
you know, I played around with that title, but I was also unsure of myself because my mom also has some unsure origins from her dad’s side of the family. But I think that like, you know, it’s one of those things where if you’re in a culture that is much more dominant, so like for me being in America, being a minority, they have that power.

People have that power to say, mm, no, I don’t believe you. I think you’re this, so that’s how you’re gonna be to me.

Josué (20:23.732)
takes a special kind of person to say that. But yeah, I’ve met them, many of them. Yeah. Yeah, no, they’re around.

Lara (20:25.471)
Mm-hmm.

Marc (20:29.465)
Mm-hmm.

I still meet them.

Mm-hmm.

Josué (20:37.492)
They’re here. So how does that? Yeah. So how do you how does how does that make you feel?

Marc (20:39.001)
That was a very roundabout way.

Marc (20:48.577)
Like I said, it’s one of those things where when I see it in social media or when I start seeing it, sort of, I see little bits and pieces of it playing out. I’m like, eh, ah, you know, it just gives me the ick. That’s kind of the simple way I can put it, is that it gives me the ick. I just, I don’t like it. I can understand that for a lot of people,

the situation here in America is not the greatest. But I also don’t think necessarily the solution is how about you just get up and leave and take advantage of another community’s resources for your own benefit.

Josué (21:31.752)
Got it.

Josué (21:35.08)
Do you think about the relationship between the United States and Mexico and how messed up that has been as well? Like there are people who were living in Mexico and all of a sudden, because the United States said so, they were suddenly living in the United States. Right. Because like they just redrew the borders and took over parts of Mexico. Do you think about that stuff?

Marc (21:51.256)
Mm-hmm.

Marc (21:57.397)
Yeah. Or like, I don’t, yeah.

Lara (22:00.515)
And multiple times too. Why? California? That’s still part of Mexico. Oh, sorry. Nope. Now that’s the US.

Josué (22:03.59)
Probably, yeah.

Marc (22:11.921)
You know, I don’t think it’s necessarily that piece of it that I so much as like I think about more often, but I think more about just my own lineage. Like my dad’s side of the family traces back to the indigenous people in Mexico. And then obviously when, and then, you know, I’ve done like the ancestry.com stuff to kind of view my heritage and things like that. And aside from, you know,

taking out my mom’s side out of the equation, if I’m looking at just my dad’s side, there are so many other things that were intermingled in addition to the indigenous people. So like, obviously they came colonized Mexico and that European bloodline then mixes in with the indigenous peoples, all that sort of stuff from whatever means.

And then, you know, that ultimately led to where I am today.

Josué (23:17.64)
Chicago

Marc (23:19.893)
Basically. Looking like I’m Asian.

Josué (23:29.712)
no comment for that yeah

Marc (23:32.929)
Well, what are your thoughts, Josué on the ideas of colonization

Lara (23:39.564)
I just want to before Josué starts talking, I want to point out that anytime Marc picks a topic, it’s like therapy for Marc Always.

Josué (23:46.733)
Always, always, always.

Marc (23:48.119)
Okay, but I didn’t go this way, okay? He’s the one who came out of the gate swinging, calling me a colonizer, and then proceeded to say, well, how does this make you feel?

Lara (23:58.103)
I feel like that’s kind of not quite, I don’t know if Josué would call a client a colonizer, but I feel like he’s pretty confrontational. Right, right, right. In service of the client, right?

Link (24:09.186)
Ha ha ha!

Josué (24:09.72)
Only if I thought it would get us where we, where we wanted to go. In service of the client in service of the Marc of course. Yeah. No, this, this topic infuriates me for a number of reasons. Um, I don’t think I cared as much when I was younger, but as I got older, I definitely did the, the idea of the, of the colonization, like one, one example that I give people is that if you’re a resident of Puerto Rico, and it doesn’t matter if you were born there and that it doesn’t matter if you’re Puerto Rican.

Marc (24:12.345)
I’m sorry.

Lara (24:20.535)
Anyway.

Josué (24:38.428)
But just by living there, you lose the right to vote for president, for example. And it’s such a weird thing, you know? Um, silly U.S. citizen, but also like, I don’t know. I think that’s really important. Like the fact that you lose the, this, this ability and it’s again, it like, doesn’t have to be that way. Like Washington DC couldn’t vote for president until the seventies.

Lara (24:42.771)
Mm-hmm.

Cause you’re still as a US citizen.

Lara (25:00.315)
Mm-mm.

You know who else loses the right to vote for president? People in jail. And that’s really fucked up.

Josué (25:10.068)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, and there’s different reasons why all those things

Link (25:15.844)
It’s almost like the ruling class benefits from that situation. It seems kind of like that maybe.

Josué (25:22.448)
Yeah, you think so? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so, again, but that’s because of the special relationship that the United States has with Puerto Rico. As a as a colony where things just like, you know, like the people there do not even have the right to like they have they literally have no representation in Congress, so they can’t even advocate for the changes that they

Marc (25:27.202)
Just a little bit.

Lara (25:48.539)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (25:52.072)
Like the people can’t who live there.

Lara (25:54.299)
Right. They can’t advocate for like, hey, how about this voting rights?

Josué (25:59.364)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, from that perspective, it upsets me. As a person who just, you know, reads and knows people from different parts of the world, I have all sorts of opinions that I won’t get into necessarily here. But a lot of the stuff that you’re talking about, Marc I agree that this is one of those novels that touches on all of them very explicitly. Like nothing about…

about colonialism in this novel is…

Josué (26:33.464)
implied right it’s all it’s all very explicit um and the main character you kind of goes on this journey where he’s and i would say it’s probably similar to mine as well it’s like as a kid like you start you start buying into the positive reasons why you’re like and you’re like i’m not part of the problem you know and then and they all struggle with it

Marc (26:35.562)
Yeah.

Link (26:58.296)
The propaganda, it’s so good. Yum, yum, yum.

Marc (27:01.374)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (27:01.592)
Yeah, and they all struggle with it, right? Because especially when you’re benefiting from it, it’s hard to criticize it. But as he gets older, as he sees the things that are going on, and I mean, and then in the story, they push him hard to basically go to China and screw people over, it’s harder for him to keep playing that game. So I think that that…

that story resonates or would resonate with a lot of people. We haven’t even talked about translation piece, like how language plays a role in the novel either, but yeah, that’s one of those stories that, yeah, pisses me off. Pisses me off a lot, yeah, yeah. I mean, of course, this isn’t the only story that touches on colonialism in that way, but it is a historical fiction.

It’s great, yeah. And the author seemed like, I would say, very angry while I wrote the whole thing. It was great, it was great. It’s like it was very purposeful.

Link (28:12.5)
Josué you read this book a while ago at this point, but what was your emotional response to reading this story?

Josué (28:21.296)
Yeah, pretty much what I was just saying now, like it was, it was infuriating because it reminds me of all that stuff. Like it resonated on multiple levels. But I also, I also loved the, like I wanted to read it because of the translation piece, like because language was a big part of it. And, and I like to study languages. So that part was really interesting to me. But yeah, again, like I saw myself in that story where I’m.

Link (28:30.217)
Did you?

Lara (28:38.824)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (28:51.268)
I remember being younger and believing different things and my beliefs have changed over time.

to where I’d burn it all down now. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Marc (29:02.973)
You just tear it all to the ground? I also think that the book itself also touches on like even the difficulty of even of having that conversation of like, yeah, okay, like all this propaganda that we went through, all the benefits that a person might have experienced because of colonialism, like, yeah, sure. That was all cool. Fine and dandy.

but it doesn’t take away from the bigger picture. And I think like the book really highlights like just how difficult it is to kind of have people realize just how detrimental the system actually was. You know, like the, you know, like the main group, there’s four, you know, four people that are in the cohort with the main character, and they’re the ones going through school together. And three of them are, you know, from…

different cultures from different countries. And they were brought to either the UK or one of them is France, and then ultimately to the UK to study. And one, she was born and raised in Great Britain. You know, she’s just really good and really adept at languages and translations and things like that. And when they tried to explain to her, like,

the reasoning why that they have these emotional responses to kind of the situations that they’ve experienced throughout the book. And her just being so completely dumbfounded and flabbergasted like the entire time and then falling back on the defense of like, well, look at all the benefits you guys get received. Like, look at all the good you guys got. Like this is, like, why would you want to throw all that away? Like, just use it and then.

in turn, try to go back to use the system. But, you know, like, again, it’s like, like having that round and round and round conversation of trying to explain that to people and, and sort of like the difficulties it is of, of having to have that conversation of like, yes, the system might’ve been beneficial or it might’ve benefited me specifically. And there for every person that benefits. From the.

Marc (31:25.801)
oppressed culture, country, wherever, there are at least like 10, 15, 100 different people or more that are suffering because of it. And that does, that’s just not right.

Josué (31:42.192)
One of the things that the book reminds me of, and I think about this constantly, is that even though, and I said, oh, I would burn it all down. The truth is, I mean, the four of us haven’t done shit to make any of this better, right? Like we’re all part of the problem and we all kind of live in it and it’s part of the machine, right? Most of us are benefiting from it and we’re all just here. And that part of it in the book is very…

Right? It’s like, it’s an, these are intimate conversations between the four people, a few more later on that are going on. And it’s exactly what you were saying. It’s like, what is, are we part of the problem? Are we benefiting from it? Should we do it? And if we do something, how much should we do? How far do we take it? Are we actually going to make some sort of change or are we going to, how much are we going to do to our detriment? Because to, to actually do something about it, we’re going to have to take it to an extreme. And.

Marc (32:26.954)
Mm-hmm.

Marc (32:39.761)
Yeah, and even then, yeah, and even then, like even if you do take it to an extreme, there’s not necessarily a guarantee that it’s even going to be effective or that it’s even going to create that change, because it can just as easily be spinned and twisted into extremist ideals, radical beliefs, things like that. And then in turn, you’re just providing…

Josué (32:40.932)
And the truth is, we’re a part of it.

Marc (33:08.429)
fuel for more propaganda to be created, which then further drives people into the very system that you’re aiming to destroy. Or change.

Josué (33:18.612)
At least this book in particular, it does take it, right, because of the way that it sets everything up, it does take it to that, like, if they take it just far enough, they do literally change the balance of power in the entire world. Like, they do, they are able to take away a huge piece of power from the UK. But to do that, they need to sacrifice a lot. Right? A lot of everything.

Marc (33:42.217)
a lot.

Josué (33:46.16)
Right, they need to make some sacrifices and The real world is in that is in that clear cut, but the novel actually sets up that that’s an area where it’s where it is possible

Lara (33:57.487)
And that kind of makes sense because the real world, we end up in these situations where colonialism, capitalism, I mean, it’s all intertwined, but all the different things, all these systems we have that are broken are so ingrained and like, there’s little web tendrils everywhere and we try to fix a problem and we create another bigger problem and then we fix that problem and we create another bigger problem. And so…

In a book like this, you can go just far enough and sacrifice things. And I’m guessing burn the whole thing down. I haven’t read it, but from what I’m hearing is then they do a lot of damage. In a good way.

Josué (34:37.091)
There’s a lot. Yeah.

Yeah.

Josué (34:45.22)
Yeah. And again, I think that’s what makes stories like this, right? That’s what makes them a fantasy. Because, is it? Is what?

Lara (34:52.145)
Mm-hmm.

Link (34:53.608)
Is it?

Link (34:57.3)
I mean, history has shown that violence can change a lot of things. The problem is people often don’t want to do violence.

Josué (35:04.18)
Yeah, yeah, but

Josué (35:08.248)
Exactly, exactly. Yeah, that’s what I mean. Like, how far do you take it? And how much violence is necessary to do it?

Lara (35:09.4)
Mm-hmm.

Link (35:14.472)
I haven’t read this book. I did read a synopsis of it before we recorded, but it seems to me to very much take the stance of you cannot change the system from the inside. You must destroy it. How do you guys feel about that story idea, that narrative?

Josué (35:33.008)
Yeah, yeah, that’s definitely what it is, for sure.

I mean, they debate that as they go through.

Josué (35:44.444)
Is that your question, if that’s what happens in the book? Yeah.

Link (35:45.098)
Yeah, the book takes the stance that you can’t change it from the inside and you must destroy. How do you guys feel about that?

Marc (35:45.918)
Mm-hmm

Josué (35:51.774)
Mm-hmm.

Oh, yes. Yes, I agree. I agree. Because it depends on the machine. The machine is too big, right? Like, again, I mean, just to use another

Lara (36:04.351)
Mm-hmm. Smaller machines you can break from the inside, right?

Marc (36:05.031)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (36:08.944)
I mean, there’s, what is it? There’s like the United States, that one feels hard. That one feels hard to change from the inside. Maybe there’s other ones, but there’s, this one feels really hard. It’s designed in a way that is to, yeah, everything about its design is meant for it to.

to continue. There’s a TV show, it was starting, Kiefer Sutherland, where there’s a terrorist attack and they basically, like, they destroy the house, the house and the Senate. Like every, I believe that’s what happens. They kill everybody. And then, no, this isn’t 24. No, no, but Kiefer Sutherland, I think is the, like, the undersecretary of education or something like that.

Lara (36:49.531)
Is this 24? No. I was like, wait, wait.

Lara (36:57.911)
Oh, is it like the sole survivor or whatever? The yeah. Or designated survivor, designated survivor.

Josué (37:00.28)
Yeah, yeah. So he ends up being president because he’s like, I don’t know. And in what is it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Which is, which is the whole thing, right? Like even, even when they meet, they’re like, we got to have one person in this room just in case. Just in case. In Battlestar Galactica, right? It was like, it was also the secretary of education. And maybe I’m mixing them up, but she was the secretary of education. So she was 234th in line for the, for the presidency. But like the system, the system stayed intact.

Lara (37:11.487)
One person who can be president has to not be there, yeah.

Lara (37:30.117)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (37:32.024)
Cylons tried, but even destroying half the world couldn’t bring down that government.

Lara (37:39.239)
some of these systems and especially we’re talking about the book is about the UK like Nina didn’t even realize until a month ago that Canada is still a colony of the United Kingdom Just because It is and you don’t it just that’s the way it’s been since we were born, you know

Josué (37:51.24)
Yep.

Josué (37:56.083)
It is.

Link (38:00.56)
And our American education system is very much of the belief that we don’t like colonies are a term from ye olden times and not applicable to current events. It’s just when we talk about pilgrims, not when we talk about your neighbors.

Lara (38:11.099)
Yeah, we don’t have colonies anymore.

Josué (38:11.124)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lara (38:19.656)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (38:19.848)
We had 13 original colonies and that story is…

Link (38:23.882)
We never talked about him again

Marc (38:26.394)
It’s like, you know what? They disappeared. They became the United States. No more colonies. Never again.

Link (38:31.264)
No more questions.

Lara (38:31.955)
Mm-hmm. No more.

Josué (38:33.588)
But it’s also like glamorized, right? It’s like this wonderful story of independence and liberation. Hypocrisy is what it is.

Link (38:44.653)
Ha ha.

Lara (38:44.828)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (38:48.228)
Yeah, but yeah, so there’s that piece. And then you brought up the translation piece, right? Like kind of, so the magic system in this book is all about how there are things that are lost in translation. And what is lost in translation in this book is harnessed as power, energy,

it can be applied in different ways. So for example, if you take two words from two different languages that mean either bomb or explosive or something like that, depending on how far one word is from the other in terms of meaning, if you put those two words together on a piece of silver, you can, by reciting the words,

the energy in between the translation, what is lost, can create an explosion. So that’s how you would create a bomb in this particular story. And it’s really, really cool. And they play with this idea a ton. And they use it for health, they use it for reinforcing steel, they use it for electricity, they use it for a whole bunch of stuff in the story. But Marc, you said it, you mentioned that at the beginning as like, it made you think about how

Often, even changing from one medium to another, you lose a lot of the meaning in it. Why was that on your mind?

Marc (40:26.893)
I just kind of think back to…

Marc (40:32.345)
So the big thing that I can kind of draw from is like when there are movie adaptations of books, right? Where sometimes the particular the author writes the book that has like they’re trying to convey a specific message or they’re trying to tell us a certain story. And then when you try to adapt it to a film.

Marc (41:03.061)
If you try to be completely faithful to the source material, depending on how long the book is, you’re looking at a five, six, seven hour long movie, if not even longer, depending on what details are even provided within the book. And so part of the job and the process is to do their best to try to retain what the central points and the central themes of the book are.

while still making it an enjoyable experience for the viewer to watch, right? And in some cases, it can still do it, like there are directors, there are films out there that can do it pretty well. I don’t ask me for examples, because I cannot name any off the top of my head. But I just know that there are some adaptations out there that, you know, for the most part, they’re pretty faithful. But there’s still some lost meaning,

feelings. I feel like it’s almost like a different story that’s being told, no matter how faithful it is to the source material. And then there are some cases where it’s just so bad, you know? And it creates its own different meaning, it becomes its own separate entity, but the true meaning behind whatever that material was just gets lost.

Lara (42:30.095)
I can see that Marc. I think about books where if you for time, because there’s so many different things you squish two characters together into a movie and make them one. And some other things like if you pull Something a character does in this important scene in the book out because it doesn’t make sense in the movie.

you lose, but then later events happen, you lose that motivation and the understanding of why that character did that thing. Again, can’t really think of specific examples, but I’ve read a million different memes and posts recently about like, well, this is a thing in this source material that didn’t end up in this show or this movie, and it changed how we saw the character and how…

Lara (43:26.147)
not noble, their motivation behind their actions were. I can think of one that is fairly, like it honors the source material, but has some differences. The Last of Us, the game going to a show, it feels like the game, but there are some key things that are very different. I mean, they changed the transmission of

the virus or the fungus. And that made for different things that had to happen that couldn’t happen in the game. But it still felt, there were some things lost, but it still felt, at least to me, like the same meaning behind it and the same kind of story behind it.

Josué (44:19.796)
I think there’s a difference between like trying to translate something and have something be lost and making deliberate decisions. Because like when you’re trying to condense something, you have to cut corners and you have to change it. But sometimes we deliberately, you know, make changes. But then in other cases, we just like the medium is so different or the language is so different if you’re using actual languages.

Lara (44:28.147)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (44:48.112)
Like there is no word equivalent, but there is no way to do what you did in the book in a movie. So you need to find a different way to try to do it so you can try to get close. Your intention can be similar, but sometimes it’s impossible to translate from one medium to another, from one language to another. It’s a…

It makes it hard to have like a universal language or universal medium, things like that.

Link (45:24.18)
I say it all the time, the medium is the message and that applies to the language that we use as well. That is also a medium through which we communicate ideas.

Lara (45:24.487)
Yeah, when I was watching-

Lara (45:31.231)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (45:35.443)
Mm-hmm. When I was trying to catch up on watching Steven Universe, I was watching it in like 10-minute chunks or whatever on, or three-minute chunks on YouTube, and it was translated, it was in English, but there were Portuguese subtitles at the bottom, and they had to explain the puns to people because, and that’s one thing that puns are very language-specific, and there’s a few…

There’s a, I can’t remember the exact joke, but there’s something about cats and purgatory, and that can translate to several different languages, that pun. But otherwise, most puns don’t make it through. Humor can be really language specific, so.

Josué (46:24.161)
Even cultural references there.

Link (46:24.965)
That’s why we love localizers, yay!

Lara (46:27.888)
Yay!

Marc (46:28.779)
Mm-hmm

Josué (46:30.9)
It’s a hard job, but even sometimes even culturally, like within Geek Therapy, we talk about having a shared language, right? Because even the cultural references, we can both speak English, but it doesn’t mean you understand, doesn’t mean you get the memes, doesn’t mean you get the references, because those are culturally specific. Steven Universe is full of those.

Lara (46:32.522)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (46:45.734)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (46:56.763)
Yeah. A lot of them.

Josué (46:59.849)
Yeah, yeah

Link (47:02.312)
And temporally specific. Specific. In time. Yes, temporally.

Josué (47:08.838)
Did you say temporarily? You’re far from the microphone.

Marc (47:11.853)
Hehehe

Lara (47:12.336)
Mm-hmm

Josué (47:14.268)
Yes, also temporally specific.

Link (47:18.729)
Well, you guys got any other media examples? I came with a couple.

Marc (47:19.257)
Yeah. Well, you know, and not to get, not to get too religious, but I feel like this, this is like one of the big things that like, when it comes to translations, like, I feel like this is something that will inevitably come up is that, you know, when you look at a lot of these holy texts, like, you know, the Bible or the Quran and stuff like that, the original languages that

they were written in, for the most part, like, or at least as far as I’m concerned, no one can decipher that original language. And that’s to even say, like, we have the original texts of those said scriptures or whatever. And so everything that we’ve had up until this point has been a translation. It’s been an interpretation of it.

And so who’s to say that the stories that we read now are truly the stories that were being documented and recorded when those particular passages were being written? Because as far as we know, we don’t know what those original texts say. And even now, we had to backtrack it. And by doing that, we’re basically having to

re-translate it using stuff that we’re already familiar with, but even then you’re losing more of the meaning and losing more of the… What’s the word I’m looking for? It really is just like the meaning and like the colloquialisms and the context of which those original stories were being recorded in.

Josué (49:04.18)
authenticity there.

Link (49:07.492)
context.

Josué (49:13.296)
Yeah, I mean, take it one step further. There are multiple translations of just the Christian English Bible in English. And depending on the church that you go to, they use, they use different translations because some are more convenient than others.

Marc (49:19.783)
Exactly.

Marc (49:26.621)
Exactly. So, you know, and that’s the point is that like these different translations are used to suit the needs of whatever it is that the organization is looking for, whatever church, whatever the Jewish specific church, whatever goals they’re looking to accomplish, they’re going to use what they view as in their eyes will be a more accurate translation, but really it’s just a more suitable translation to what it is they’re trying to accomplish.

Josué (49:56.2)
Maybe because sometimes it’s just like it’s just like that’s what you grew up with But then but then I think what happens is then all the other ones are wrong

Marc (49:57.094)
Yeah and

Lara (50:04.667)
Look, everyone should just read the Torah instead.

Josué (50:07.477)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Link (50:09.444)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Marc (50:10.445)
So like…

Lara (50:15.683)
Mm-hmm. So no one debates that. It’s interesting because leading up to the high holidays, Nina and I’s rabbi was talking about reading, you read the same psalm over and over again. And she said, you don’t read the same translation every time, you don’t have to. And so you can get the same story with very different meanings. I mean, there’s similar meanings, but some are written more beautifully than others. And there’s different.

Link (50:17.793)
Ugh.

Lara (50:44.711)
different wording, but it’s just very interesting because the Hebrew, it’s the same, but we can interpret it differently into English and other languages.

Josué (50:58.076)
Also, as a person who speaks multiple languages, it is extremely distracting to look at translations and understand both of them because holy shit are things different sometimes. It is so hard and distracting. It’s fascinating, but it is damn…

Josué (51:27.904)
This is why

So that we don’t even have the words to describe the way we feel, right? So, but we see it and we have a particular version of it that seems accurate, that seems representative of the concept or the idea or the feeling that we want to show. And it is hard if your therapist doesn’t understand, you know, that’s why we always talk about like, bring the actual media in if you can.

Lara (51:50.623)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (51:56.176)
And then, you know, and show it. Don’t just, because even just talking about it, is it the same thing?

Lara (52:01.299)
Well, even just someone coming to me and they’re glad I understand what Discord is and being able to understand what a server is and what a channel is and what… how to do a GIF in it and all these other things. They’re like, you get it, you understand the word mod, the word whatever. Or a client who… Almost exclusively, we have talked about life through the lens of…

The Legend of Zelda and being able to like show up in therapy and see me wearing I’m currently wearing my Legend of Zelda hat and like see that and be like, oh, let me tell you about this, this and this. Like it’s been exactly you understand what I’m saying when I say a Korok seed and how I’m collecting all the Korok seeds right now. And I’m like.

Josué (52:47.376)
You speak my language.

Lara (52:57.667)
That is perseverance right there, friend. That is perseverance.

Josué (53:01.515)
Yep, yep, yeah, yeah.

Josué (53:06.356)
Was there anything else about the book you wanted to cover, Marc? Or that, or that, or not necessarily about the book, but the ideas in the book.

Marc (53:15.081)
In terms of ideas of the book, no, I feel like these are like my two, the two biggest things. And I feel like they’re also the two main themes of the book. Um, there are things that I do want to just touch on the book, but I feel like since you and I are the only two that read it, that’s just something that I could just talk to you about afterwards. Yeah.

Josué (53:33.108)
Call me.

Josué (53:38.204)
Got it. Got it. Any closing thoughts, Marc?

Marc (53:42.273)
colonialism is bad and exactly don’t do it don’t do it it’s bad guys don’t do it and

Josué (53:45.468)
You said don’t do it, right? Is that, yeah, okay. Okay, okay.

Marc (53:55.525)
I think translation, and this is something that was touched on in the book, but I think that while it does pose its own issues and concerns at times, I do think that the art of translation is something that is to be admired. I think it is a beautiful thing to create meaning and doing, and especially when someone’s doing their-

Josué (54:16.424)
beautiful. Yeah.

Marc (54:23.837)
their best to try to retain the original meaning of whatever the original text is, and convey it in a different language.

Lara (54:33.707)
Not an easy job.

Marc (54:35.434)
No, not at all.

Josué (54:37.904)
I forget the person’s name, but on TikTok, I follow someone who goes through, and there’s a few people that do this, but they go through the history of a word and what it used to mean and where it came from and what the root was and how it changed. And over time, and then it meant this and then it meant that and then you’re like, oh, damn, that’s how we got here. That’s cool. That’s cool. Yeah. Yeah, it’s beautiful. Lara, closing words, closing thoughts.

Lara (54:56.249)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (55:06.511)
I got nothing.

Josué (55:07.432)
Cool, cool, cool. Link.

Marc (55:08.353)
Hehehe

Link (55:10.616)
Yeah, I have a couple of recommendations of other media to get into if you liked this conversation. On the anti-capitalist, anti-colonialist side, there is the movie Sorry to Bother You, which is…

fantastic and very funny and surprising and you will gasp and go, oh, what the fuck is happening? A great movie very much about what we were talking about earlier of changing a system from the inside versus its necessary destruction. And then more on the language side, also related to the Tower of

Link (55:57.728)
Snow Crash has a lot to do with the idea of shared language being…

a whole thing and its relationship to tech. You should read that book. I truly think that you are going to be so into it. Then also the movie Arrival, which is really cool. First contact movie about aliens and a linguist slash etymologist trying to figure out how to communicate.

Josué (56:10.644)
I should read that book.

Link (56:33.868)
with the aliens, both to communicate from us to them, but also to receive their communications to us. And there’s a whole lot of really juicy philosophical questions about how language shapes the way that we think about everything. And framing that in extraterrestrial stuff is really cool and interesting. But yeah, two movies and a book to go with Babel. Yeah.

Josué (57:02.229)
Yep.

Link (57:02.872)
Check them out at your local library.

Josué (57:08.496)
shouldn’t surprise you, but Arrival is my favorite sci-fi movie. For yep. Yep. And.

Link (57:11.172)
It’s great.

Lara (57:14.684)
It’s on the list of things to watch.

Josué (57:17.38)
It’s, I like it, I like it a lot. And again, I think this is a good example of just a story that made Marc feel something, made him feel a couple different things. And so we talked about it. So, you know, remember, use media in this way. That’s what we’re advocating for. It’s if it makes you feel something, whether it’s positive or negative, there’s something there and…

We get up with your therapist, with your friends, with your podcast. So start a podcast. Talk about this kind of stuff. It’s great. So thanks Marc for bringing this one up.

Marc (57:52.946)
of course.

Josué (57:54.42)
And thank you for listening, for joining us, join the conversation in any of our community spaces. You can do so by following the links in our show notes. Remember to geek out and do good, and we’ll be back next week.

Link (58:09.668)
MmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmBabel

Josué (58:13.704)
Nice.

Link (58:15.398)
Pfft. Hehehehe.

Conversation Topics:

* Colonization
* Oppression
* Translation / localization
* Change
* Cultural representation
* Death
* Family
* Fear
* Feeling alone
* Finding Oneself/Identity Development
* Guilt
* Etymology
* Moral dilemma
* Standing up for others
* Standing up for oneself
* Taking responsibility for one’s actions
* Media adaptations

Relatable Experience:

* Third Culture
* Clarity/Understanding
* Coming of age/Getting older
* Death
* Fear/Anxiety
* Fighting
* Loss (other than death)
* Guilt
* Moving
* New Life Event (New Rules)
* Trauma

Questions? Comments? Discuss this episode on the GT Forum.

—

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What are some media examples you enjoy that touch on the topics of colonization and/or the power of language?

The post Babel Babble appeared first on Geek Therapy.

#362: The crew discusses Baldur’s Gate 3 and The Dark Urge origin character, how they can be used as a metaphor for intrusive thoughts, and the severe lack of therapists and social workers in Faerûn.

Josué (00:01.95)
Welcome to GT Radio on the Geek Therapy Network. Here at Geek Therapy, we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona and I am joined by Marc Cuiriz Link Keller, and Lara Taylor. Everybody, what y’all playing lately?

Marc (00:12.497)
Hello?

Link Keller (00:14.667)
Yo.

Lara (00:16.879)
Hey!

Josué (00:23.242)
Anything? Anything good? Anything near? Tears of the Kingdom? Yeah? Pardon, Marc, what are you playing?

Lara (00:24.903)
Tears of the kingdom.

Marc (00:28.428)
Kitty Collector.

Link Keller (00:28.834)
Oh, I’ve been…

Marc (00:31.581)
I’m playing kitty collector.

Josué (00:33.09)
Kitty Collector Link?

Link Keller (00:35.63)
I’ve just been putting just, you know, a couple of hours into a little indie game that I’m sure none of you guys have heard of. It is a sequel. It is part of a series. Just a small, small little game nobody knows about called Baldur’s Gate 3 and… Whoaaaaa!

Link Keller (01:00.748)
Yeah.

Lara (01:00.899)
I mean, that’s also what I’m playing.

Josué (01:00.994)
I thought you were going to say moving out too. Yeah, but yeah, Baldur’s Gate 3. I think, have we all been playing it? Marc, are you playing? Yeah, for sure.

Marc (01:03.156)
Yeah.

Marc (01:08.32)
I am looking at my steam right now. I have played it for a solid 84 minutes because I literally bought it two days ago.

Lara (01:15.995)
I’m sorry.

Link Keller (01:17.01)
84 minutes that’s pretty close to the amount of time that I’ve put into the game which if I pull if I pull open My steam right now it says No, it says 227.9 hours

Josué (01:17.186)
That’s a bet.

Marc (01:21.605)
Oh yeah, I-

73.1

Marc (01:30.252)
Oh wait, hold on, I’m sorry, that says 73.1 hours played recently.

Link Keller (01:35.75)
Yes, because I had already put over 100 hours into this game when it was in early access and one might suspect that maybe I would chill out about it. No, not even a little bit. I’m going harder than ever. I can’t stop thinking about it. I’m constantly thinking about it. Right now I am thinking about it. Are we actually done? Can I go play?

Lara (01:43.21)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (01:44.081)
Oh.

Link Keller (02:04.043)
My babies.

Josué (02:04.214)
Before you go, can you tell us what the game is and what it’s about?

Link Keller (02:08.658)
It is a RPG. The first one came out in, I wanna say 96, 98 maybe? Late 90s, early 2000s. And I played those games, Baldur’s Gate 1 and Baldur’s Gate 2 a shit ton in my youth. And I have been excited for more Baldur’s Gate since 2007.

Josué (02:27.822)
same.

Lara (02:28.646)
Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (02:37.494)
when they started promoting Dragon Age Origins as the spiritual successor to Baldur’s Gate. I’ve been craving it. It did not hit that mark for me, but Baldur’s Gate 3, it is more Baldur’s Gate. It is a different game. It plays a little bit different. It plays a little bit more similarly to Larian Studios’ other games, Divinity, Original Sin, and that sequel, but it is still in its heart.

Baldur’s Gate game and so I am having so much fun playing. You get to make your little character. It is in the Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition rule set. So most of the basic Dungeons and Dragons stuff is in the game. And yeah, I made my little character and I collect my little friends and we go on little adventures and then we do mass murder and stealing and…

Kissing? Mmm!

Lara (03:41.187)
Mass murder and stealing? I haven’t done any of that. Well, maybe mass murder. Of goblins.

Josué (03:48.142)
So many goblins.

Link Keller (03:48.248)
Just a little light murder. So anyways, I’m having an absolute blast with this game. It’s been something I’ve been excited about for years. And it’s fantastic. I’m enjoying it so much.

Josué (04:04.138)
Well, I too have been playing Baldur’s Gate 3 and that’s not really what I want to talk about today. I picked the topic, it’s not really about Baldur’s Gate 3, but there is a character in Baldur’s Gate 3 that you can choose that I want to talk about and just to kind of set off the conversation. But I will say that Baldur’s Gate 3 more than any other game that I’ve played… maybe ever?

But you can tell me what other games do this. And I recently played Divinity Originals sin two. I’ve played, I think I’ve played, you know, a variety of RPGs. But this game feels like it has, it almost feels like anything is possible in the sense that you have many different, like you meet somebody and you’re like, oh, I could befriend this person or I could kill them or I could kiss them. Like, I don’t know, like, anything feels possible.

And so I’m very hesitant at some things because there are some games where you’re like, I’m just gonna say this to see what happens, but I don’t really expect there to be a consequence. And in this game, I’m like, attack? No, I’m not gonna attack because if I attack, I’m gonna end up killing them. Or I might die, yeah, yeah. It’s gonna be a whole thing. And so the game is a lot of fun and it feels like there’s high stakes because I know an epi-

Link Keller (05:08.89)
Heheheheheheheheheheheheheh

Lara (05:13.629)
Mm-hmm. You might die or you might die. Yeah.

Josué (05:27.978)
character can die and then that’s it. Like their whole storyline, they could have been on your party, in your party for 207 hours or however many.

Link Keller (05:37.53)
Hahaha

Lara (05:38.231)
and the one wrong statement and that person dies in a battle.

Josué (05:41.006)
Or you could have killed them at the beginning. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that I find impressive about the game. And I think that’s one of the reasons why right now it is beloved and getting very, very high scores in reviews. And so you can create your own character. How many of you created your own characters? All of you? Same. So I created a character of my own.

Lara (06:00.771)
I’m excited.

Link Keller (06:02.913)
Yes.

Josué (06:08.182)
Which is almost identical to yours, Lara, not surprisingly. Hahahaha

Link Keller (06:12.193)
Wow.

Lara (06:12.907)
Look, I’ve never played a Dragonborn. I wanted to play Dragonborn. I love Rangers. I want to be a Ranger. Yeah.

Josué (06:15.99)
Mine was a Dragonborn. Yep, yep. Yeah, yep, yep. So I created a character and then I saw, it wasn’t a review, there’s this YouTube channel called Fextralife where he does a whole bunch of coverage of the games and in a very technical way. Like this is one of those games that I’ve been studying. Like I watch hour long videos on every class before I decided what I wanted to do. And he made a video on this, one of them,

Link Keller (06:17.455)
Hehehehehehe

Josué (06:44.914)
Origin characters that you can choose. I think there’s 12, right, that are actual characters in the game that you can pick. And 12, is that too many? I think there’s 12 characters throughout.

Link Keller (06:54.362)
12? That’s way too many. There’s six companions which you can play as origin characters and then there’s the dark urge which would be seven.

Josué (07:03.111)
Uh-huh.

That’s it? Okay, then seven. Then half of what I said, then half.

Link Keller (07:09.326)
And Asterix, the Dark Urge one, is like, is your backstory that is provided to you. You still get to choose what class, race, what you look like, all of that stuff is still customizable as opposed to the companion origin characters, which look and are built the way that they are, though you can multiclass or reclass them through in-game. I don’t think so. I think they just look how they look.

Lara (07:17.884)
Mm.

Josué (07:29.918)
Oh, you can’t change the appearance of the other characters of the other originals. OK.

Lara (07:35.76)
Yeah.

Well, and when you think about this, game is pretty close to a direct port of D&D into video game form. And so that’s like getting a pre-gen versus building your own character. So yeah.

Josué (07:48.81)
Yep, yep, yep. And so there’s a dark urge. You just mentioned that character, right? So I see this video, this guy’s talking about the dark urge and he said something that was very GT to me. He was like, this character, what sets him apart from other characters is that he has these dark thoughts and I can really relate to that. Like sometimes I’m in a situation and I think something and I’m like, I’m not gonna do that, but I thought it.

And I’d never played a character, you know, in a game that had an experience like that. It’s like, wait, what, wait, what? How true is this? So I went and I gave up my character. I had only played a couple hours. And so I went and I switched over, started again as a dark urge. Literally that’s his name, the dark urge.

Lara (08:36.455)
Huh.

Josué (08:37.946)
And it is, I’ve never played a character like this. At least I can think of. I’ve played games that have morality systems where you can play as good or bad. And one that I really think about often is the Renegade and Paragon system in Mass Effect, where there’s like, as Shepard, I remember one option, right? Because I was pretty into the red, into the Renegade part. It was like, oh.

You can respond to this or you can punch him in the face. I was like, yeah, I’m going to punch him. There was an option to just pull the right trigger and punch him in the face. And I definitely just punched him in the face. But there were just two options. It was like, do this or now that you’ve unlocked this whole bad side, you can do things like that. But the dark urge is not like this. The dark urge has dark thoughts.

Lara (09:09.933)
I’m gonna go.

Josué (09:35.39)
really dark thoughts. And then the character does not want to have these dark thoughts. Without spoiling the experience for people who want to do it too much, the moment he wakes up, you realize he’s got amnesia. So he doesn’t know why he has all of these dark thoughts coming to him constantly. But those are options. And sometimes the option is just fantasize about ripping their head off, not actually ripping their head off. And

I saw it described by someone as like hard mode. It was like, it was some kind of hard mode where you’re like, even if you wanna play as a good guy, these bad choices are always there for you and they’re enticing you. And at times it almost seems like, it’s like you want to do them, right? Like your character.

Like you’re playing against what your character wants to do, because your character wants to rip their head off or eat their eyeballs or whatever it is that they want to do. So does that sound like another game that you’ve ever played before? I’m curious, because I’ve never played a game that has this kind of thing.

Lara (10:51.851)
Not this close. I think Knights of the Old Republic had light side, dark side, similar to the way morality system same way that you would in Mass Effect. But, but not anything quite like this.

Josué (10:56.854)
Yeah. Morality system. Yep.

Josué (11:01.91)
Yeah, same company too.

Josué (11:09.238)
Yeah. And there’s, and there’s games that you play where you’re playing, you know, like a bad character and they have and they’re they have an attitude, you know, and maybe their way of doing things is is. More of an antihero type of thing.

Lara (11:26.387)
Link and Kayla and I just talked about that kind of stuff not that long ago. Yeah

Link Keller (11:28.601)
Hehehe

Marc (11:29.364)
Hehehehehehe

Josué (11:30.314)
Oh, yeah, yeah. But very different to actually like have these dark thoughts there. And so I thought like this is such an interesting experience. And I thought of many different uses for something like this, right? Where it’s an experience that’s relatable to someone who, you know, has dark thoughts and is constantly fighting against them. But I also thought, and I’m curious what you guys think about this.

It gives me depression quest vibes. Where in depression quest, you have these different options. And sometimes there are options that you can’t choose, right? And you have good and bad options that are, you know, healthy and unhealthy options for you. And that’s what this feels like. It’s like, oh man, I don’t know if that’s what I should do or not. I can’t believe he even has this option. Like that’s crazy. That doesn’t seem like, I shouldn’t, right? Right? And then you look around and you’re all alone and nobody.

Link Keller (12:23.109)
Hehehehehe

Josué (12:28.802)
You realize you’re the conscience. You’re the conscience for this character. No, I mean like in real life, like you’re just like, I need somebody to like bounce this idea off of. Ha ha ha.

Link Keller (12:29.338)
No witnesses. Hehehe.

Lara (12:31.993)
Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (12:35.79)
Hahaha!

Marc (12:38.38)
Hehehe

Lara (12:40.24)
Yeah.

Josué (12:42.698)
Link, does this remind you of any games that you’ve played before?

Link Keller (12:45.582)
I think it’s pretty distinct. I think there’s some overlap with other games like Mass Effect. I think another overlap would be with something like The Last of Us, where the character makes choices that you, the player, do not agree with, and the emotional reactivity of that. But I think Baldur’s Gate III is sort of special in that way, in that it is

utilizing like is building off of like video game morality systems like the renegade paragon dichotomy there, but it’s also building off of Dungeons and Dragons morality system, which is sort of twofold. And there’s the good and evil, lawful chaotic cross alignment, but there’s also reputation, which is dependent on where you are.

where it’s like certain groups of people want you to do evil stuff and so you’ll get more reputation points with them for being a little bit naughty But other places you would lose reputation points for that and it’s like in Baldur’s Gate one and two those systems were there But they were very much under utilized under realized almost certainly because Computers can’t couldn’t handle that level of complexity, but they can now so it’s like so much more complexity

Lara (13:51.348)
Or a lot.

Marc (13:52.596)
Hehehe

Link Keller (14:11.714)
But what I think is the most interesting about the Dark Urge stuff is there are some of them that you are forced into doing. And some of them, it is an opt-in choice, right? When you get the little text, what your character is going to say, the next line in the conversation. Side note, Larian Studios has stated that they do not suggest people play the Dark Urge as their first play through.

And I think that this is part of it is because when you play through the first time and you have made your character, your character, depending on their race and class, gets special lines that are just for them. And so it’s like if you show up to the tiefling camp and you are a tiefling, you get to say different things than if you’re a drow or dwarf or human. And the same thing with like if you’re a barbarian, you get to show up and just be like, I’m going to sp-

split you in half with my big Axe and people are like, whatever you want, baby. But then if you’re like a rogue, which is what I’m playing as most of my rogue specific conversation pieces are just like, hey, I usually get paid for this, which I think is very funny. But it sort of creates this feedback loop where you’re playing this character.

you’ve invested in building it a certain way, you wanna click those options because those don’t show up in every play through. That’s special to this character. And so you wanna click them. And so when you have the dark urge, it’s like this extra layer of like, that’s the new option. I wanna pick the new one. And then it’s the, yeah. And so it’s this balancing act of like, well, like, do I…

Josué (15:49.922)
We have both. You have both now.

Lara (15:56.627)
I already played through in a nice way, maybe.

Link Keller (15:59.45)
I already did nice stuff, I’m ready to see the bad stuff, like what’s gonna happen, what are these consequences gonna be, are they gonna be like big consequences or are they gonna be- because sometimes like you build up this idea of like if I click on that things are gonna go sideways, like if I click that, if I click choice two instead of choice one, everything’s going to hell and you click it, you’re all ready and then nothing happens and it just is like-

Yeah, it’s a little spicier way of phrasing the thing I wanted you to say anyway is whatever and nobody responds to it. And you’re like, oh, okay. But we like the dark urge, it’s a whole extra layer on top of that. It’s like, is this the one? Is this the one? Is this going to have like huge repercussions? Is it going to, you know, get one of my characters killed? Is it going to completely close off a whole side quest to me if I click that option? But I want to click it because it’s got that special parentheses, dark urge around, like

I think that’s yummy, delicious brain stuff there.

Josué (16:57.566)
Yeah, yeah, it is. It is. It does add an extra layer of complexity. You’re like, oh, do I do the dragonborn one or do I do the kind of the twisted stuff?

Link Keller (17:07.354)
I do, and I do just want to say, like, as much as this game absolutely feels like a real tabletop Dungeons & Dragons game sometimes, it is a video game, and it has tools that tabletop games don’t have. Like quick save and quick reload. Please use them. They are vital to your game enjoyment. So you get that option pop-up.

Lara (17:25.339)
Hmm

Marc (17:26.653)
Ahem.

Link Keller (17:31.458)
I’m slamming that quick save button so I can click it and find out what happens. And if I don’t like it, I reload. And if I do like it, I keep playing. Maybe put a couple more quick saves down just in case. I actually, I remapped. My mouse has like a forward and back button on the side. I remapped the back button to be quick save. So I’m slamming that quick save button all the time.

Josué (17:57.549)
So I’ve been playing it as…

Josué (18:02.998)
I don’t have time to play four different versions of every interaction. And so I’ve started playing a while back, different games this way, where I’m like, fuck it, I’m just, this is it. This is whatever happens and I’m going to keep going forward. And so I mean, obviously I save a lot because just, I don’t want to die, but no, you know, you got to save in this game, but I haven’t really tried to play around with.

Link Keller (18:24.159)
Yeah, and it gets.

Lara (18:26.747)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (18:30.518)
So there are times when I don’t know what would have happened if he, if he did the thing. You brought up last of us. And that’s interesting because in the last of us, there’s this. Event that happens at the end of the first game that a lot of people disagree with. And I’ve, and I’ve, and I’ve read of people who just sat there because they didn’t want to do the thing that you had to do at the end. But that’s it. There was like, you had no choice. And the game kind of lets you just sit there. Really just.

Like, you know, whenever you’re ready, whenever you’re ready, you can press the button and do the thing.

Link Keller (19:03.886)
Just loop the soundtrack, we’re fine. Take your time.

Josué (19:06.278)
Yeah, and so the dark urge, for the most part, always gives you a choice. It’s more like there’s this voice in the back of your head. Also the narrator is fantastic. Like the narrator is constantly like, you fantasize about it, you know, like eating their eyes out or something. I don’t know. And you’re like, what does it, would you stop? And she makes it sound very enticing as well. And so that stuff is funny. There was one thing at the beginning that happened.

Lara (19:06.887)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (19:24.135)
Ha ha

Josué (19:34.786)
that was completely out of your control. And then, but then, then you get to react to it. And you get to decide like, I’m gonna own that shit or I’m going to feel bad about it. And I don’t, who am I as this character who has all these dark thoughts? Am I someone who embraces it?

Lara (19:56.299)
Am I, am I someone who doesn’t care or am I someone who does the thing anyway, but gives a shit?

Josué (20:03.662)
You can not care. You can absolutely care and show remorse. Or you can like double down and be like, damn right. And I do it again. Don’t cross me. And that kind of scope is, again, it is just, like you were saying, Link, it just adds this additional layer of like, I’m, I don’t know, there’s something that just feels more realistic about it. It’s like, you flip a switch that makes it.

Lara (20:08.848)
Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (20:32.714)
I mean it’s more realistic to like my internal thought processes while I am playing a video game. Where it’s like, ah I’m the hero of city and I’m here to save the day. I wonder what would happen if I shot directly into that big stack of exploding barrels.

Josué (20:33.326)
I don’t know.

Josué (20:39.678)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josué (20:54.602)
So here’s the thing, right? Like when I play a video game, I am the character, right? I’m like, okay, I’m making this decision, but this character is constantly telling me that it is struggling with the choices that are being presented in front of it. So even when I want to play a certain way, he’s still pushing back on me in a way. And that is fascinating. That is just such a interesting experience. Hmm, so interesting.

Lara (21:05.968)
Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (21:24.038)
Mmm. Yummy!

Josué (21:24.514)
So Marc, what is it? Does this make you think of anything?

Marc (21:29.672)
Hmm, you know When when you when you guys were all kind of talking about like, you know Knights of the last Republic the last of us, you know Mass effect. Yeah, right the game that came to my mind was fallout and the morality system with that game because in fallout like yes, you have certain dialogue choices that you

Josué (21:40.118)
games that came out before you were born.

Lara (21:42.undefined)
Mm-hmm.

Marc (21:58.524)
that you make and that can either, you know, gain karma, lose karma. And again, it’s like a reputation based thing, but it’s also, it also takes it outside of just the dialogue where certain actions you do. We’ll also cause you to lose or gain that karma, whatever it might be. So you can play the game as, and you can be the asshole and just be like, you know, I’m a steal from everybody.

I’m going to kill you, I’m just going to destroy this and then you risk losing certain quest lines. Or you could try to be the savior of the wasteland and just try to be a goody two shoes. You know, it kind of opens you up for those sorts of things. And you know, for me, this is my first time playing any game. Like Baldur’s Gate is like my first, like this is my first experience with the series. This is my first experience with

Any game that’s even in this format like I’ve never played a game like this before. I mean, I’ve played dnd before so It I have some familiarity with it Um, so like it’s not like i’m a complete stranger but like Hearing things like you know, the dark urge like a character like that I know that like you guys were saying where You know, i’m sitting there playing fallout and i’m like, okay. I’m talking to this person. I know I need to be

Josué (22:59.662)
counts.

Marc (23:18.78)
okay with this person I got, I would get them on my good side. But I’m like, I wonder what happened if I just took this, this mini nuke and just decimated the whole squad right now, just because why not? But then you kind of look around, you’re like, oh, maybe I shouldn’t do that. And so I was tempted to have my very first playthrough be the dark urge. And I decided against it just because I was like, you know,

It sounds very enticing just to see what those choices are and just to kind of see just like how messed up they can really be. But at the same time, I was like, well, this is also my first time sort of playing through this sort of game. I want to try and do it. And I’m very much kind of like you, Josué where I am the character. It’s me making those choices. So when it comes to me, like when it comes to like those big decision making things or when any game kind of has

Lara (24:06.403)
Mm-hmm.

Marc (24:16.244)
choices that can impact the story. I will pause, unless it’s like a quick time choice decision thing, like Telltale games, I will pause it or I’ll leave it exactly as it is and I will Google it. Because I always want to make sure that I am making the right choice to get the outcome that I want. Because I don’t even want to save it. I just want to just get it right the first time.

Josué (24:33.41)
Yeah.

Lara (24:35.802)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Marc (24:44.224)
So I’m like, OK, what’s the right choice? But I also understand with a game like this, like that’s kind of impossible because almost every choice you’re making in some way, shape or form.

Lara (24:45.019)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (24:46.39)
Oh, you would hate the way I’m playing now. Yeah, yeah.

Lara (24:49.484)
It’s…

Lara (24:55.975)
There are so many choices in this game, so many choices that have impact.

Josué (24:58.646)
Yep.

Marc (25:00.048)
So, so this game is one of those things where I have to kind of be okay with like, all right, you know what? Fuck it. I’m just going to full send myself and just I’ll make these decisions. However, I would like originally make these choices as if I was the character and just see like, is my decision making abilities, are they actually up to snuff or do I just suck and I need to start rethinking how I how I make decisions in this world?

Lara (25:27.532)
It’s interesting.

Josué (25:27.678)
in real life or in the game.

Marc (25:29.692)
I think the game will be an accurate reflection about the real world based on, because every decision I plan to make is like, this is what I would do. Like, this is legitimately, like, if I was in this situation, if you took me and put me in that situation and I had these choices in front of me, this is the choice I would make. And just see, like, is that gonna get my whole party killed? Am I gonna die? Let’s find out.

Josué (25:32.398)
Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.

Link Keller (25:36.534)
Bye.

Lara (25:38.427)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (25:47.675)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (25:53.455)
Marc, it’s interesting because you brought up the like, well, I know I need to be good with this person, so I’m going to pick this answer or whatever. And I mentioned earlier this game being close to a D&D like direct port, but it’s not quite because I think Kayla brought this up on the episode we did about anti-heroes, but we play a D&D game together. And one of our new players, first time playing D&D, doesn’t give a fuck. And like.

is playing, was playing a warlock, now playing a sorcerer. We came up against like, in the Hobbit with the spider webs around people and we were supposed to be rescuing people. And she saw us trying to rescue somebody and she just, Eldritch blast the spider web and almost killed this person, right? That we’re supposed to be saving. And so I think some people would like to just go in, play it differently.

go all in. In D&D you have a DM who can kind of shift, but like when you’re looking at this game, like, oh I know I need that person, I need to talk to them for something later probably so I’m going to avoid doing that. Because you don’t have a DM who can just pivot if someone dies.

Link Keller (27:04.63)
It’s like also in like tabletop, like when you’re playing with other players, like they are also real people who deserve to have, you know, moments in the spotlight and have choices that matter. And it’s not just you. But in a video game, it’s just you. You can’t this game does support multiplayer. We could play we could play co-op and it’s very fun to do. So I haven’t tried it in the actual game, but I played co-op in the early access a couple of times. It was.

Lara (27:16.796)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (27:21.195)
You can do whatever the hell you want. Yep.

Josué (27:23.382)
We could play co-op.

Link Keller (27:32.978)
a blast, but it is a very different gaming experience than when you are controlling your whole team.

Lara (27:40.675)
I think people at Larian have also suggested it’s a different game when you’re playing. You should play on your own and also play with people.

Link Keller (27:50.85)
It is a different kind of experience.

Josué (27:51.058)
I’ve only played Divinity Original Sin 2 with another person. And it’s if you’re going to play it with other people, you got to play it like a D&D campaign, I think. And you’ve got to kind of be on the same page. You can’t just play with somebody random. And they’re just they pick the dark urge and they’re just, you know, doing all this crazy stuff. I’m messing up the world for you. It’s good to be aligned. But a lot of the stuff that like a lot of the bad that you could play.

Lara (28:06.933)
Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (28:07.763)
Oh no, that sounds awful.

Josué (28:20.958)
Right? That you could attack everybody. You could, you can attack NPCs. You could kill a whole bunch of people. Like you can steal from, from people like you can still do that in the game.

Lara (28:24.39)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (28:28.964)
Oh yeah.

Link Keller (28:29.05)
The game is structured in such a way that the more evil choices you choose, the harder the game gets. The main way being… Yeah, I mean the main way being if you are aggro and violent, people fight you, so you have to do more fights than you would if you were being nice. But also your teammates can…

Josué (28:40.714)
And that’s true for the, my distinction is that that’s true for the dark urge as well.

Link Keller (28:56.058)
turn on you or leave, which means you have fewer resources gameplay wise and so it gets more difficult in that way as well.

Josué (29:04.778)
Yeah, those consequences.

Marc (29:05.492)
You know, I find that when I’m playing a game solo, I tend to try to be more of the good character. But when I’m playing with friends, I don’t give a shit. Like I will be, that’s where my chaotic energy just like reigns supreme. I would be the kind of person to be like, you know, when I’m with my party, try to convince them to just

Link Keller (29:07.482)
consequences.

Lara (29:19.313)
Hahaha!

Link Keller (29:20.639)
Time for chaos!

Marc (29:34.932)
go haggle somebody or hey, let’s go mug that one person or like, oh no, do this. It’s fine. No one, no one’s going to care. And then, you know, the whole town tries to chase us out. I’m also the kind of person that would just go into a room and just fireball the whole thing and just, you know, shoot first, ask questions later. But on my own, I’m like, no, let’s, let’s be the good guy. I don’t want to make any enemies. Let’s all just be friends. We’ll hold hands. We’ll, we’ll sing under rainbows. It’s fine. That’s what I want guys.

Lara (29:50.279)
Uh huh.

Link Keller (30:04.102)
I am the same way, Marc. Like when I’m playing by myself, I’m like, one, I want everybody to like me. I know they’re not real people. They’re just lines of code, but they have to like me. And I wanna collect all of them. It’s very much collection thing. It’s like, I have to collect all the little friends. I have to make everybody like me. Everybody’s happy. I get the happy ending, the credits roll. If I’m playing with other people, I’m like.

You know what I love more than anything? Experimentation. So I’m just gonna try throwing this exploding barrel and we’re gonna see what happens. It’s just, it’s the scientist in me. I don’t know what to tell you guys. And the people I’m playing with are like, please no, no. Oh.

Link Keller (30:43.642)
chaos.

Lara (30:44.283)
So you basically are saying that Josué should not play with you in multiplayer, because you have…

Link Keller (30:50.003)
I think we should all play together and it would be really fun, but I do want you to set your expectations where we will not be doing a serious run. We’ll be doing a silly goofy guy run.

Josué (30:58.686)
Yeah, we’re never gonna finish that game.

Lara (30:59.307)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Marc (31:00.76)
Oh no, 100% not. I think me and Link would just be the Shaggy and Scooby of the group who were just running around getting into hijinks and you guys just deal with it.

Link Keller (31:07.93)
Yes. ruh roh

Josué (31:14.034)
I’m the, I’m the, I don’t know what character this would be, but I’m the one who like, you turned around and he’s not there anymore. And then you hear an alarm or something because I pressed the button. I just pressed all the buttons. That’s me. Yeah.

Lara (31:23.067)
Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (31:23.59)
Oh, okay, so it’s two Velmas, Shaggy and Scooby.

Marc (31:26.572)
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Josué (31:34.238)
That’s what it would be like. Yeah. All right. So we can’t think of anything else. Again, I’ve never played like a tortured character that allowed me to play him as…

Tortured.

Josué (31:51.438)
I have no idea if there’s any redemption for this character. Like, I’m not, I’m not.

Link Keller (31:54.45)
I didn’t get into the end game stuff of either of the Divinity games, so I don’t know if… This may be a Larian thing, this is a thing that they are continuing to engage with, because the premise of that game is you are a bad guy and you do bad guy stuff. You don’t have to do bad guy stuff, but it’s like, you’re a bad guy.

Again, I didn’t get to the later game stuff, so I do not know how any of that stuff resolved. I could be completely off base here. But I feel like it might be something that Larian Studios finds this idea really engaging, and that’s why they keep delving into it. What makes people do these things? What is the urge within us that causes us to harm each other?

Josué (32:26.658)
Yeah.

Link Keller (32:48.066)
the planet we live on and the systems around us. Like, how does that work? How do we systemize that into a video game where we can play with the pieces and see, like, how can we change? Where is the space for, like, shifting the path, so to speak? I think that that’s intriguing stuff.

Josué (33:10.75)
Yeah, yeah. I don’t, I don’t, yeah, I recently played Divinity Original Sin 2. Maybe I’m, I’m not… It sounds like a different game than what you’re describing, but I think you played way more of it than, than I did.

Link Keller (33:21.23)
It’s been many years since I played, and I played the first one a little bit, and then I played the second one like more, but also not too end game stuff, so yeah.

Josué (33:34.174)
Yeah. Well, one funny thing to me is that Divinity Originals 2 and Baldur’s Gate 3 are practically exactly the same game for the first. I’d say for a good chunk of it, it’s exactly the same game, the way it starts. But so, yeah, I can’t believe there’s no like other real good comparison for it.

But what about in the sense of, so let’s say Lara or Marc, you’ve got a client, right, that comes to you and is, it’s like, hey, I’ve been playing this game. Right? And…

Lara (34:20.858)
That’s like my entire caseload.

Josué (34:22.878)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly, it’s like, hey, you’ll get there, Marc. You’ll get there. You just gotta, you’ll get there, you’ll get there. So Lara, right, somebody comes up to you and it’s like, hey, I’ve been playing this game. And I’m playing as this character called the Dark Urge. And he’s got some dark urges. He thinks some messed up stuff. And I kind of relate to that.

Marc (34:23.644)
wish that was my caseload.

Josué (34:51.05)
Right, like, where do you take that conversation from there?

Lara (34:58.047)
Um, usually when I take that conversation, because it has come up, not necessarily like this dark urge, but like people have thoughts that are just thoughts. Like, um, I don’t know, I hate my kids or what if I just like break this thing that is so important to my husband or whatever, you know? And most of the time people don’t act on those things, right?

Josué (35:26.099)
Yep.

Lara (35:26.939)
They’re just thoughts. All of us have them. So normalizing that piece and then like, explaining, well, what is it like to get to come up against these things and like be able to like act on it? A video game allows you, without real world consequences, to do things you can’t do in real life. Or you could do, but it would be really bad for you. And so, yeah.

Definitely have had conversations like this and they go very interesting places and people are usually relieved to know that like other people Have thoughts about hating their kids. Yes, most parents do That doesn’t mean you don’t love them too. Those kinds of things Yeah, so

Josué (36:15.724)
Yeah.

That’s one of the things I like about how I first heard about the character was that someone online was like, hey, I played this. I’m relating to this character because I never like maybe this guy never talked to anybody about the dark thoughts that he has. Just like your example of like, oh, other parents think these things too. Really? I had no idea. Other people play Paltress K3 and want to rip arms off people. Really?

Lara (36:34.928)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (36:39.356)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (36:46.415)
Listen, we’ve talked before on the show about villains and relating to villains and I think there’s like, I don’t know, those dark urges that people have, you know, it’s part of everybody. We just, some people focus on it more than others or some people ignore it more than others and some people talk about it more than others and yeah.

Everybody’s got those dark urges. We all have a shadow.

Josué (37:18.75)
And I know I mentioned depression quest before, but one of the things I like about depression quest is using it as a way to show people who have not experienced depression, some of the symptoms of it and some of what the experience is like. For those of you who haven’t played depression quest, it’s a narrative fiction game where you are a person who is experiencing depression.

And so you have options and sometimes the healthiest options that are available in the real world, supposedly, you can see them in the game, but you can’t actually select them. Meaning that as the character in the game, those options are not visible to you. Meaning that in real life, sometimes you don’t see the, like you don’t even think that it’s possible to do the healthy thing.

even though people around you might be able to see it, right? Like in the game, you as the player can see that option is there, but the character doesn’t actually have that as a real option. So I like the idea of using something like the dark urge to show people like what it’s like to have conflicting thoughts and thoughts that are really, really difficult to. To understand even because that’s one of the things about this character, this character is like.

Why am I thinking these things? Like, I have no idea. He has a backstory, but he doesn’t even know what it is. So there’s some reason, maybe, maybe he’s maybe he is a terrible, you know, evil character. But for some reason. Right now, he’s not. But that part of him is still left over and he is struggling with it.

Link Keller (38:50.606)
That is actually…

Josué (39:07.146)
And it’s my job to either let him, you know, feel good about it or not, or, you know, like a therapy simulator.

Link Keller (39:14.234)
I do not think that the actual game has gone into this topic with as much depth and care as we bring to it, but I do think that it is a starting point for discussing things like intrusive thoughts with OCD. This idea of like, you can’t.

Lara (39:32.581)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (39:32.935)
Yeah.

Link Keller (39:34.742)
Like it just keeps like every you’re having a conversation about something else completely and that thought keeps popping up anyways and you’re like, I can’t, I’m not going to say it. I don’t want to say it, but I keep thinking it. So I don’t, I don’t think the game obviously is not going for that kind of conversation. But I think that it is absolutely useful for us. Yeah. For us to use as a jumping off point for that kind of thing.

Lara (39:46.652)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (39:53.499)
That’s the kind of conversation we have.

Marc (39:56.268)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (39:59.722)
Yep, it sparks it. Yeah. I have not found a therapist that you can go to in the game for the darkers to go.

Link Keller (40:06.838)
Yeah, you know, honestly, there is a real lack of therapy and social work in Faerun. It’s an epidemic, honestly. They really…

Lara (40:19.759)
You might find a cleric that might be willing to listen, but sometimes they’re just too preachy about their god-

Josué (40:23.722)
Even a Baldur’s Gate? There’s nobody? Nobody?

Link Keller (40:27.226)
There’s a lot of cops, but they’re not gonna help ya.

Josué (40:29.43)
uh ouch yeah

Marc (40:30.644)
Hmm. I think they put those resources to the exact opposite.

Link Keller (40:38.582)
That’s it. This is the media reflecting reality reflecting media. I’m gonna start hanging up posters says fewer flaming fists, more therapists in Baldur’s Gate. Defund flaming fist. But really, we should. We should defund flaming fist. We should invest in the people, the communities.

Lara (40:43.327)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (40:52.423)
hahahahahahahahahaha

Josué (40:53.31)
More therapists.

Marc (40:53.526)
Hahaha

Josué (41:06.67)
So it takes 200 hours to get to Baldr’s Gate? Is that what I’m hearing?

Link Keller (41:11.858)
Um, okay, so on this, like on your character save, it tells you how long you have been playing that character as. So I got to Baldur’s Gate like 80 hours in.

Josué (41:28.002)
Good to know, good to know. All right, so I know I’m the only one who’s played as this character. Do you have any questions about it?

Link Keller (41:30.605)
I’m only…

Link Keller (41:35.702)
I did, my friend Remy, he played through, and he plays more like you guys do, where it’s like if you make a choice, you commit to it. So he has to reload a lot, but it’s because everybody dies, and so you have to reload. But if everybody doesn’t die, he just keeps going, whatever the consequences are. And so he obviously made it through his playthrough much faster than I did. And then he started over and he did the Dark Urge run.

Josué (41:44.983)
Yeah.

Josué (41:51.19)
Yeah.

Marc (41:51.872)
Hehehe

Lara (41:52.519)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (42:04.063)
Oh, what’d he say?

Link Keller (42:04.65)
And so I had him talk to me about it. But he was, he was, his main complaint was, is he had ideas about what he wanted it to be and it didn’t meet those expectations. And that is a common.

thing for him is he always like expands on the idea and he’s like think how cool it would be if they did this and they followed that thread to over here and the game’s like we can’t do all that that’s too much man and then he’s disappointed about it. But yeah so he didn’t he didn’t give me too many spoilers but he did say he was a little he loved that because the dark urge actually has a backstory that does make him unique in that when you make your own characters like.

Marc (42:32.855)
Hehehe

Lara (42:33.793)
Hehehehe

Link Keller (42:50.902)
it doesn’t have a game backstory. It’s like, you can make it up or not, that’s your call, who cares? The game does not care. But the Dark Urge actually has a past, and so that’s really interesting. But he thought that there would be a bigger payoff at the end, and it was very similar to how his first playthrough ended, and so he was a little disappointed in that. But to me, that makes sense, because this is not a separate game mode. This is just a different character within the same game.

Josué (43:17.758)
Exactly.

Exactly. Yeah.

Link Keller (43:20.866)
But yeah, how far are you? Are you in act two yet? Okay.

Josué (43:26.838)
No. Not at all.

Lara (43:30.343)
Oh, so you haven’t done the link you shared to us from IGN? You haven’t murdered every single NPC in Act 1? And stored them in one house? Yeah.

Link Keller (43:41.923)
I’m sorry.

Josué (43:42.05)
Nope, I have not. And shove them in the same house? Nope, nope, I haven’t done that. Like I said, I’ve mostly been playing the character as someone who is like really dealing with intrusive thoughts and is struggling with them. And at times does succumb to them, but other times, and is also apparently doing things unconsciously that doesn’t feel good about it. Actually, so there’s a…

Marc (43:43.82)
Hehehe

Lara (43:56.768)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (44:11.63)
There’s a character, there’s a murder that happens that you don’t do on purpose. And afterwards, when you realize that it happened, I took something of that person after they died and I wear it with me always, because to me, this version of the character is remorseful that happened, he didn’t want that to happen. So this is like in honor of the person that he did not mean to hurt.

is wearing this thing of them to remember them by. That’s my version of the dark urge

Link Keller (44:48.662)
That actually just reminded me of, I do have another example that’s, it’s not a perfect overlap, but, and also not a video game, but Dexter, his dark passenger is what it is referred to as in the book series and the TV show. And that’s his like urge to do murder. But then he, you know, his work around is he focuses it on.

Josué (45:11.551)
Yeah, yeah.

Lara (45:12.4)
Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (45:16.842)
enacting this violence that he feels compelled to do. He is enacting this violence against other violent people. But he also, like his thing is like he would collect, I think he was collecting blood slides. It was like a major plot point in the first season where he had to get rid of them so he wouldn’t get caught or whatever. But like that, it’s like, it’s kind of a serial killer move to be like, I’m gonna keep this object and I’m gonna carry it with me. But it is also.

Lara (45:31.483)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (45:35.338)
Yep.

Lara (45:41.413)
A trophy.

Josué (45:43.502)
I didn’t think of it that way. I didn’t think of it as a trophy.

Link Keller (45:44.926)
It is also absolutely a way of like, I am carrying proof of my shame and guilt and I cannot be relieved of it. So I must carry it on me with like a physical symbol. So I love that sort of dichotomy, mirroring moment happening there where it’s like, ooh, yum.

Marc (45:44.96)
Hmm

Lara (45:45.764)
Now.

Josué (46:04.938)
It’s true, I mean, I could have made the same exact choice and then just in my mind, because you can’t go into this much detail in the game, but in my mind, it would have been like, this is a reminder to everybody else, don’t fuck with me, or if not, I’m going to murder you, and I’m just gonna wear a piece of you around to remind the others again. But in my mind, I’m like, and every time it comes up, I’m remorseful of it. Also, I could have denied that it happened, and I didn’t. Right? So, like, people know

what happened. At least I think I know what happened. I’m not even sure. I just, I don’t know if I’ve told you, when I was in a car accident when I was like 20, no I was like 18. I was in a really bad car accident. I got hit from behind and then my car skid into the car in front of me. So there was a, it was a three car pile up. I was in the middle. And when the cops came, I was like, it was my fault. It was my fault. It was all my fault. The cops like, are you sure?

This is the story you want to go with? And I’m like, yeah, yeah. No, no, no.

Lara (47:04.199)
I’m sorry.

Link Keller (47:06.094)
that seems physically impossible and you’re like, no, it was all me, officer.

Marc (47:08.501)
Hehehe

Josué (47:10.474)
It was all me. It was all me. I did it. I couldn’t. Yeah. And I mean, obviously at the moment I remember it. I remember what happened. And I also remember being in this state of mind where I was like, no, it must’ve been my fault. Like my breaks did this. And then that’s why the guy behind me hit me. And then like, it was my fault that the guy behind me hit me and it’s, and therefore it’s my fault that I skid into the car in front of me. It took me hours afterwards for me to realize that like that made that logically made no sense.

Lara (47:28.165)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (47:37.733)
No sense.

Josué (47:41.47)
But it reminded me, like, that’s how I played the character. It was like, this thing happened. It was like, did you? Yes, yes, it was me. I think, I don’t know, I wasn’t awake when it happened. But yep, I’m sure it was me. Must have been. Damn. I assume responsibility. Also, I feel bad.

Link Keller (47:56.902)
I love that this is like in video games that makes sense because you are the actor. Like everything that happens is because of you moving through the game space. But for you it is a pattern of how you respond to things and also how you respond to things in the game. I love that.

Josué (48:09.727)
I don’t know actually.

Josué (48:20.118)
But also in the game I don’t know that it actually…

Link Keller (48:20.526)
You’re like, something terrible has happened. It must be my fault. I’m so sorry, everyone. How can I fix this? I’m so sorry. I’m gonna wear a little piece of this car for the rest of my days.

Josué (48:30.558)
Again, this thing that happened in the game.

Lara (48:34.709)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (48:35.526)
I don’t know that the character actually did the thing that I, that I, that he’s assuming responsibility for through me, but I just, it’s got, it’s gotta be. I mean, it’s got, it’s gotta be, of course. I mean, and he, yeah, yeah. Very much me.

Link Keller (48:45.783)
It’s… it’s you!

Lara (48:50.347)
I love that you’re playing it this way, Josué because if I play it, I’m just gonna double down. I’ll do it and I’ll do it again. Make it so different from me.

Josué (48:59.242)
Well, well, it depends, right? Like, I don’t know what the consequences would be if I did that. Like we were talking about before, like you can try to play bad, but then at what cost? Because I’ve already had my people.

Lara (49:06.332)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (49:09.655)
Right. But if it’s my second playthrough, I don’t care.

Josué (49:15.29)
True.

Marc (49:15.62)
I feel like for me I’d play it more like the cookie jar, but like who me? Couldn’t be, couldn’t be me. Why would it be me?

Link Keller (49:22.458)
couldn’t be, then who? It, the, the playing as not the dark urge, the game still has a similar ethical question that it is doing of like opting into more power versus not because it’s kind of suspicious. It does that same thing with the tadpole powers and

Josué (49:36.247)
system.

Josué (49:44.97)
Yeah.

Lara (49:46.567)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (49:50.871)
Yep.

Lara (49:51.363)
Every time I use that I’m like, ooh, maybe I shouldn’t have. Ah.

Link Keller (49:54.762)
I, okay. So the game starts, you get a tadpole There’s, there’s not a choice in that, but later on you get an option to unlock powers for it, which you can choose to do or not do. And then later on from there, you get another opportunity to increase those powers, which unlocks basically like a second tier of very cool, illithid powers. But it’s…

Lara (50:02.267)
Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (50:24.322)
very much feel like you’re like, is there going to be a consequence for this? Like if I if I opt into this at all, like, that’s the connection. It’s Bioshock. The first the first Bioshock game had a good ending and a bad ending, where you could only get the good ending if you saved every single little sister. If you if you ate even one of them, you got the bad ending. And so

very much that is informing the way that I’m playing Baldur’s Gate, even though I don’t think it’s going to be the same at all. Part of me was like, if I use even one time the worm power, I’m going to be full evil. I’m going to get the bad ending. Everybody’s going to hate me. So I really grappled with it for a while. But then I wanted the utility of the moves. I wanted to…

Lara (51:15.087)
Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (51:16.65)
And this actually loops back to Mass Effect. One of the second tier illithid powers is a black hole. And when I played Mass Effect, I played as whatever the magic user is called in that game. But black hole is one of their powers. And I would just spam that through all of Mass Effect. And so I’m like, ooh, I’m going to do it again. Black hole, black hole, black hole, black hole. I’m having a lot of fun.

I am still kind of worried that it’s, I’m going to have some big consequences for taking all the powers, but I’m committed to it at this point.

Lara (51:52.975)
Gotta commit to the bit.

Link Keller (51:54.443)
I’d commit to the bit.

Marc (51:54.76)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (51:54.783)
Well, an interesting thing is that you can choose or not to, but then your companions are also choosing whether or not they want to or not. So if they’ve chosen to do it, that’s another skill tree that you have for them. But if they don’t, they, and it’ll say like, they are not open to this. They are not willing to, although you can still persuade them. You can work on persuading them.

Link Keller (52:17.23)
It’s super funny. I’m running extremely high dex, high charisma character, and so with the bonuses that I have, if I roll a persuasion check, basically if I roll anything other than a one, I will pass it. There’s only been like two times that I’ve been like, oh okay, mathematically I can’t reach that one.

Lara (52:17.639)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (52:29.953)
Always.

Josué (52:36.61)
Yeah.

Link Keller (52:46.922)
It was very funny when I got to that part where you get the opportunity to increase your brain worm powers and your dream person encourages you to do it. And you can tell them no. And they get they’re like, I really think that you should. And I really think that you should convince your friends also. And I’m like, no, like, don’t get pushy about it. Like, I’ll think on it. And so I was like, I’m going to go to camp and I’m going to talk to everybody. I’m going to feel out the waters and every single person was like,

Absolutely not. That’s a terrible idea. I’m definitely not doing that. And then it’s like my responses either persuade them with like, come on, come on, don’t you, come on, don’t you wanna be powerful? And then just leave is the other option. And so I like walked away, but Wyll was the one person who said something kind of interesting that actually felt like responsive to me is that I went up and asked him about it. And he’s like,

I find it interesting that you’re asking me about it even though you haven’t accepted the powers. I was like, oh, he’s actually paying attention. That’s a really good point. So after I did accept the powers and I walked around to ask everybody, I was wondering if it would be any different, but it’s not really. It’s the same thing where nobody’s into it unless you can pass the persuasion check, in which case I assume they’re immediately like, yeah, okay, and slurp down a worm.

Josué (54:14.734)

[laughs]

Link Keller (54:16.45)
You don’t actually eat the worms, but you can. Ha ha ha.

Link Keller (54:25.162)
I love this game.

Josué (54:25.486)
Well, you said the thing about the endings. I know that the game supposedly has like 17,000 permutations or variabilities for the end. And I don’t know how many endings that actually is, but I get that you can have a bunch of combinations of people there and different things, but who knows what the decisions you’ve already made will do towards the end. I’m sure I won’t finish this game, so I’ll never see what happens in the dark urge anyway.

Lara (54:32.347)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (54:56.47)
Thank you for engaging in this, come on.

Lara (54:57.812)
Unless you watch it on a Let’s Play. Or Twitch, sure.

Link Keller (54:59.902)
Yeah, or watch the TikToks that come out in two weeks that are gonna be like…

Marc (55:00.588)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (55:01.035)
See you soon, what I do.

Josué (55:05.686)
But I’ll never know what my version of the guy would have been, what his ending would have been.

Lara (55:09.659)
Hmm, that’s true. It’s true. Maybe watch a few different endings and see, hmm, that’s the one he would have had.

Link Keller (55:11.302)
You just get to make it up in your minds.

Josué (55:18.862)
That’s the one. That’s the one. Yeah, could be. All right. Well, thank you for engaging with me in this conversation. I hope it was thought-provoking and, you know, it’s a little tool out there. It’s a conversation starter about some topics that I don’t think, at least I’ve never, again, I’ve never had them come up this way, maybe in books. It’s more, you know, more of a…

A theme that comes up more often, but still it’s not as interactive as this, where you have the options of actually following through. It’s up to you whether you want to follow through with some of those dark urges or not. Things are really cool experience and I’m glad that Larian put that in there. It’s pretty cool. All right. Any closing thoughts? Huh?

Link Keller (55:58.327)
Yeah.

Link Keller (56:06.326)
I do kind of suspect that originally the Dark Urge was built as that was the intended first experience. I want to say is they got to the point where they were letting some people test it and they realized when Larian Studios put out that first weekend launch and they did a whole bunch of stats. Which by the way.

I love that stuff so much, but they’re talking about like, generally speaking, players, all players from everywhere, like 70, 80% of them will be good. They will always choose the good option. Those numbers change when you get like replays and stuff where people are going back in to see the other stuff like I do. But generally speaking, people, people want to be good. They want to be heroic. And so I think

partway into development. They were like, we can’t have the dark urge be the main character. We have to… People aren’t going to like that. They’re going to be really upset with us. So maybe we’ll change that to like a bonus extra thing.

Josué (57:17.014)
I’m glad you didn’t have to unlock it by playing it like doing a first playthrough or anything like that. Yeah.

Link Keller (57:20.654)
I am glad of that because I don’t like things being locked, but yeah, I do think that that’s my suspicion, that it was originally planned to be the baseline and then they were like people are going to be really mad about it, we’re not doing that.

Josué (57:38.146)
Alright, any closing thoughts Link?

Link Keller (57:40.31)
Uh, I love Baldur’s Gate.

Josué (57:44.298)
Really? Marc, closing thoughts.

Marc (57:53.381)
I almost want to just create a new character and play the Dark urge and just let the intrusive thoughts run wild.

Josué (58:03.766)
Yeah, because in real life you can’t do that. Yeah, at bay, yeah, yeah.

Marc (58:08.828)
Exactly. I had to keep those in check.

Lara (58:09.681)
Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (58:11.544)
Aren’t you tired of being nice? Don’t you want to go ape shit?

Josué (58:15.246)
You

Marc (58:17.709)
One day.

Josué (58:17.846)
You say that, but you haven’t seen the kind of stuff that goes into this guys’ that the dark urge’s is thinking. It’s pretty messed up. Lara, closing thoughts.

Marc (58:21.966)
Hehehe

Lara (58:22.766)
Right.

Lara (58:29.135)
I enjoy any game that lets me have conversations with friends about, like, oh, you played it that way. I wish they had more stats, like Link said that opening weekend having the stats. I really liked how life is strange. I could compare myself to my friends. And I’m just throwing it out there if they want to do that for the PlayStation 5 for the console version. So that would be great. Let me see how my friends play. But anyway…

I think regardless whether it’s with your therapist, if you have a therapist like me, he’ll listen to you. Or with friends talking about what are the choices you made, whether it’s the dark urge or not. It’s kind of fun to get into that.

Josué (59:16.234)
Yeah, yeah, they do.

Lara (59:16.951)
Everybody plays differently.

Link Keller (59:19.242)
Okay, my final thought is I want to know who… Who are you guys gonna romance? Who are you gonna romance? I chose Shadowheart first.

Josué (59:32.406)
I already made out with Shadowheart.

Link Keller (59:34.066)
I… They’re… Okay. Every character is both my sweet baby princess and also a little shit who deserves what they get. Um… If I had met Karlach first, I would have chosen her. I feel like she was made for me. Um… But I’m full shadow heart in this run. I love her. I love her so much. She’s my little pastel goth girlfriend.

Lara (59:34.295)
I can’t stand any of the female characters so far, so…

Lara (59:47.032)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (01:00:06.91)
Alright, well, and you can tell us in the community spaces who you’re going to romance. And maybe some of your dark thoughts, but not all of them. Please do not share them all. Share them with your therapist, if you must, and friends and family and your support system.

Lara (01:00:16.644)
Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (01:00:20.899)
or journal.

Josué (01:00:25.811)
Um, links to the community spaces are in the show notes. Remember to geek out and do good. We’ll see y’all next week.

Link Keller (01:00:33.348)
Bye!

Josué (outro)
Geek Therapy is a 501 C three nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter, visit geek therapy.org

Transcribed by Riverside

Conversation Topics:

* Intrusive thoughts
* Change
* Consequences
* Death
* Difficult emotions
* Fear
* Finding Oneself/Identity Development
* Guilt
* Mental Health Services
* Moral dilemma
* Power struggle
* Redemption
* Taking responsibility for one’s actions

Relatable Experience:

* Intrusive Thoughts
* Clarity/Understanding
* Fear/Anxiety
* Guilt
* Trauma

Questions? Comments? Discuss this episode on the GT Forum.

—

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Find us at www.GeekTherapy.org | @GeekTherapy | Lara: @GeekTherapist | Link: @CHICKENDINOSAUR | Josué: @JosueACardona

Ask us anything through the Question Queue and we’ll answer on the show: geektherapy.org/qq

Have you played as The Dark Urge in Baldur’s Gate 3? What do you think about the portrayal of intrusive thoughts?

The post The Dark Urge appeared first on Geek Therapy.

#361: The crew discusses the Barbie movie!

Marc Cuiriz 0:11
Hello everybody, and welcome to this Barbie tastic episode of GT radio. Where we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about

Josué Cardona 0:26
the barbies you care about

Marc Cuiriz 0:29
the Barbies you care about. I am one of the Barbies here tonight. Marc Cuiriz, and joined with me is Josué Barbie.

Josué Cardona 0:42
Yep, yep, that’s me.

Marc Cuiriz 0:44
Lara Barbie.

Lara Taylor 0:46
Hey.

Marc Cuiriz 0:48
And Link Barbie.

Link Keller 0:51
Hey,

Marc Cuiriz 0:53
how we doing Barbies.

Link Keller 0:55
Hi Barbie

Marc Cuiriz 1:01
how’s everybody?

Link Keller 1:01
Really? Nobody’s gonna say it back? Wow betrayed immediately. I think the patriarchy is in here you guys I’m worried

Lara Taylor 1:12
it might be

Josué Cardona 1:12
Who’s a Ken in here?

Lara Taylor 1:14
listen,

Marc Cuiriz 1:14
I’m actually an Allan

Lara Taylor 1:15
I am Kenough, okay?

Marc Cuiriz 1:23
we’re all kenough

Josué Cardona 1:25
what a movie what a movie.

Link Keller 1:26
What a movie. That’s cinemaaa

Marc Cuiriz 1:32
I yeah, I was not expecting to Well, I was kind of expecting to like go into it with like, walking away with like, things to think about right? Because of like everything I saw on social media because I was kind of late to seeing the movie. But I was still thoroughly surprised as to how much this movie actually made me like, Huh. This is this is something I didn’t, like, I didn’t think about it. In in the way that it was being presented in the movie. Like, patriarchy.

Josué Cardona 2:04
Please elaborate.

Marc Cuiriz 2:05
So obviously, like I understood, like a lot of the themes, I saw a lot of things on Tik Tok on Facebook and just social media in general of like, how Barbie was a really a movie that got you to like, think about things and sort of view things in a different way. And so I was like, okay, like, I get it. This movie is more catered towards adults kind of with the messages that it’s presenting things like that. And as I was sitting there watching it, and listening to kind of what was going on. I was like, Huh, that’s really interesting. I didn’t really think about it this way. And that, it almost seemed like every, I shouldn’t say almost it was in the sense, like everything was reversed in Barbie land, where Barbies ran everything. And the Kens were just like, essentially the eye candy. But we’re also like, dismissed. Like they weren’t really, they didn’t, no one really paid much attention to them. And then there’s Allan Ken’s best friend that was even more so ignored. And then they go into the real world. And then Ken sort of sort of starts learning about patriarchy, and then he’s talking to other dudes, and they’re like, No, the patriarchy still very much alive. We’re just really good at hiding it now. Like, we just have all these fancy words to kind of sprinkle things over and I’m like, Huh, that like that makes a lot of sense. Like, it’s stuff like I already knew, but to have it just kind of be outright and just kind of like spoken in that way. I was like, yeah, like, wow, that’s, that is that is nothing but hard facts that they are spitting right now.

Josué Cardona 3:56
And how Ken’s like, your whole patriarchy is awesome. Like, it really benefits us. We should, we should we should do more of that we should bring that home. We should just embrace it. It’s all about horses.

Lara Taylor 4:10
Ken is just a horse girl Ken really just wanted to be a horse girl and the patriarchy kind of ruined that. There are so many wonderful things about this movie, but we’re on the topic of the patriarchy piece. And what I think is what the movie does really well is it shows how toxic masculinity and patriarchy also doesn’t work for men either. And how it puts them in boxes. And literally puts Barbie in a box like but I thought they did that beautifully. Most of the people that I know, present company excluded are that have seen the movie are like queer people, trans people, women and so it’s nice to hear Are somebody thinking about things differently? It’s good.

Marc Cuiriz 5:06
Yeah, I was honestly thoroughly surprised to like the patriarchy isn’t about horses? you know what? Screw the patriarchy it’s not about horses. I’m not into it. Let’s let’s just get rid of it altogether

Josué Cardona 5:24
funniest thing was to me that they call that the ken called his place exactly what you call your house. Mojo Dojo Casa House. That was such a coincidence.

Marc Cuiriz 5:34
Listen, I told you that in confidence Okay. Now I gotta change the name.

Josué Cardona 5:39
Oh, sorry.

Lara Taylor 5:42
Listen, Ken is such a horse girl that he put on his Mojo Dojo Casa house, he has a saloon the saloon doors and it’s like, Ken saloon or something like that on the front?

Josué Cardona 6:00
I am interested in hearing from you, Lara, you said that some of your clients brought up the movie. Very curious, in what context

Lara Taylor 6:11
so. And it’s not just clients that have brought this up to me. But I’m friends who and these are mostly trans friends. Talking about it brought up feelings of a lost childhood, especially trans women. And this feeling these feelings of like, I wish I could have played with Barbies like this. And also feelings of like, damn, the patriarchy sucks. But I’ve known that for a really long time. And I’ve been on multiple sides of this and it sucks for everybody. But it’s led to some good conversations about well, you can you can still have these things if you want. I mean, if you feel like you’re past the Barbie stage, that’s fine. You can still play with your video games and your other things. But yeah, it’s been it’s been good to talk about toxic masculinity, patriarchy. Things that I have talked about with clients before. But through this lens, I think it may it brought things up to the forefront that just didn’t naturally come to them as often. So yeah. Plus, we talked a lot about how Ken is a horse girl, and that we are Kenough

Josué Cardona 7:45
do you really think he’s a horse girl. I’m just I just wasn’t sure if

Lara Taylor 7:47
yes, I really believe that. That’s that he wanted to be a horse girl. Yeah.

Josué Cardona 7:56
Um, the toy thing is really interesting to me, because I hadn’t thought about that. I’m, I play more with toys now than I ever have before. Also, I had a Ken doll. By the way, there’s a story I don’t know if I’m just sorry, my sister. It was her birthday. And someone came over. She didn’t know us very well. I believe this is my how I remember it. And so she had a pilot Ken and stewardess Barbie for for my sister. Once you realize that she had that my sister had a brother. She kind of split the present into and then gave me the Ken. and gave my sister the Barbie. When I was a kid, we like my action figures and my sister’s Barbies. It was kind of like in Toy Story, right where they were like, the toys are all mixed up

Link Keller 8:45
they play together.

Josué Cardona 8:47
Yeah. Yeah. Like Bruce Wayne used to ride in that pink Ferrari. Because it was cooler than whatever. Like, there wasn’t a Ferrari that you could buy for Bruce Wayne, and he needed one. You know

Lara Taylor 8:58
he did

Link Keller 8:58
plus, if you’re in the pink Corvette, then like the black suit really pops.

Josué Cardona 9:03
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Again, I’m pretty sure he had a Ferrari. And also like

Link Keller 9:09
she’s had a lot of cars

Lara Taylor 9:11
she’s had a lot of cars, a lot of cars. I have a trunk

Josué Cardona 9:15
literal dream house.

Lara Taylor 9:16
I have a trunk in the other room full of my old Barbie stuff. And like, I think there’s one of the I think the convertibles in there. And like an ice cream truck thing, which I love. And a bunch of weird Barbies are in there too. Along with my Power Ranger toys, and my Ninja Turtles and all of that.

Josué Cardona 9:40
I know brought this up before but I don’t have anything from any of the toys from my childhood. I don’t have barely anything from like the first 20 years of my life and kind of sucks and I’m overcompensating now. Hard, which is a problem. Yeah, the level Like meta commentary in this movie was impressive. The layers on layers on layers like the fact that the Barbies believe that they represent something that is so obviously good that they fixed the real world. Right. And I thought that that was

Lara Taylor 10:26
one of the one of the things that came up for me when I was watching the movie was the commentary about how Yeah, they fixed the world. Barbie is a good thing. And it’s also really messed up, it gives us this picture of what women are supposed to look like. And the standard that no one feels like they can live up to it. There’s a lot of commentary on that. And after the movie came out, there was an article talking about the Geena Davis project or Geena Davis Foundation [note: it’s actually Geena Davis Institute on Gender in Media] and research on

Josué Cardona 11:00
if she can see it

Lara Taylor 11:00
if she can see it, she can be it and like how there was what was it? Like, there was a game design Barbie in a book. And it said that she had to have her friends Brian and Allan, or Brian and Steve or whatever, help her with the coding. She just did the design. And someone a game designer, she pushed back and was like, Listen Mattel this, this doesn’t work. And so they actually made a game design Barbie who sat down at a computer and coded her own stuff as as an action figure. So these are things that like, are both true at the same time.

Josué Cardona 11:42
Yeah. It’s like the welfare of like the welfare character, right? He’s like, literally, we’re empowering women. But you know, they can’t do this, or they can’t do that. But obviously, like, you know, we’re all about female empowerment here. I mean, there’s some funnier parts, right? I mean, more ridiculous parts, right? He’s like, Oh, we’ve had one or two female CEOs. Like we all have women in our lives. You know, but but as far as the toys are concerned, right, like he, he seems to believe it’s

Lara Taylor 11:50
that he’s doing good

Josué Cardona 12:13
doing. Yeah, yeah. But also that, like, realistically, there’s some things that she can’t code, obviously, but she can work in video games. She can’t code. Like, that’s weird. That’s crazy. But it’s true. Right? It was it was awesome to have like the America Ferrera character, and her perspective of the dolls and that her daughter representing that other view of like, Fuck Barbies.

Lara Taylor 12:40
literally called her a fascist.

Josué Cardona 12:43
Yep, yep. Oh, didn’t feel bad about it. So what is it

Link Keller 12:52
did you guys catch that the the four girls that were mean to Barbie. Their names are the names of the original line of Bratz dolls.

Lara Taylor 13:01
I did not get that is amazing.

Link Keller 13:04
isn’t that a fun little easter egg?

Josué Cardona 13:06
that is a fun little easter egg.

Marc Cuiriz 13:09
I saw the Tik Tok on that.

Josué Cardona 13:12
Oh, that’s good. So So what is what is your relationship with Barbies? Lara, let’s certainly you were talking about you have some in a box.

Lara Taylor 13:22
I have a whole bunch. I grew up. I had a bunch of Barbies. I used to play with them a lot. My friend my best friend Brian and I would play in the backyard with my Barbies and my Ninja Turtles and, and his GI Joes. I didn’t have too many GI Joes, but it was really funny having this really tall Barbie, and a ninja turtle that came up to like her hip and the GI Joes that came up to her knee.

Josué Cardona 13:44
yup

Lara Taylor 13:45
And we were Yeah, we would just like sit in the backyard and dig like pits for like moats around things and put like, and put like, like sticks and things in the yard to make forts and then we would put the Barbie Dream House next to it and then the car and the turtle and the like the Turtle Van. And everything was together. I don’t know like specifically what Barbies I had. Right? I probably had

Link Keller 14:12
okay, but I want to know which one was your favorite. And I want to know you I want to know your weird Barbie.

Lara Taylor 14:19
Um, so which one was my favorite? Like I said, I don’t know exactly how many like which Barbies I had. I had probably like a stereotypical Barbie and a

Link Keller 14:19
so just blonde barbie

Lara Taylor 14:22
blonde Barbie. I had a ken, which some of my friends were like, I don’t see that as ken and Ryan Gosling in the in the movie because my ken was brunette. And I’m like, mine was very blonde and had a collared shirt.

Link Keller 14:44
That was that was a choice when they first started doing screen tests.

Lara Taylor 14:48
Yeah.

Link Keller 14:49
Ryan Gosling had more of a like golden beachy wave look going for him and it’s just, he looked to what he just looked like Ryan Gosling and they were like, we really got to change Something so he reads as a Ken. it turns out, super platinum blonde was the move.

Lara Taylor 15:06
Yeah,

Josué Cardona 15:07
it’s a beach Ken

Lara Taylor 15:08
that’s a beach Ken whose only job is to be beach. His job. His job is beach. I know I had a Barbie that had the rollerblades that were in the movie and I love that Barbie. My weird

Josué Cardona 15:17
didn’t it like Spark? right like, like when you moved it forward didn’t do like, no, am I thinking of another doll?

Lara Taylor 15:32
They might have had some like that. Maybe, but I really want those. They make those rollerblades they’re selling them now I want those rollerblades now for myself. I and one of my favorite things to play with with the Barbies was the ice cream truck. Because it also came with like a little bowl that you could put your ice real ice cream in. It was really cool. And then also the chairs there were like little chairs you could set up that were like they looked almost like martini glasses, but they were supposed to be Sunday like dishes. But my weird Barbie. I think the weird Barbie weirdest Barbie I have was one that my friend my friend in high school started messing with after I did when I was a kid. So I had I cut her hair off. Not realizing that it wouldn’t grow back because hair grows back. And she’s got like a tramp stamp on the back in Sharpie. And some like tears drawn in black Sharpie down the side of her face. And

Josué Cardona 16:42
she was going through some stuff

Lara Taylor 16:42
she was going through some stuff she really was. Um, and I think currently because we just went through a bunch of boxes recently. I think she’s currently wearing Princess Jasmine’s outfit from one of the Disney. We also I also had like the Disney Barbies, like the the Princess Jasmine and the Prince and Ariel and Belle. But I wasn’t allowed to play with those. Because those were my mom’s. And those were on a display shelf

Link Keller 17:12
mmm the collectibles. Yes.

Lara Taylor 17:15
So yeah, those are those were, those are my favorites. I have yet to open the trunk in the other room, because it’s locked and I don’t have the key so we’re gonna figure that out. But it will be like a little time capsule of Barbie. So

Josué Cardona 17:34
I’m disappointed you didn’t bring Barbies, but I guess if you don’t the key

Lara Taylor 17:41
I don’t have the key. I don’t have the key

Josué Cardona 17:44
All right, so Link. What Uh, what about do you have a relationship with Barbies?

Link Keller 17:48
I do. As a person who was raised as a girl, I received many Barbies as gifts. I only recall like actually picking out like one or two myself. Most of them were gifts or whatever. But I was more of a Beanie Baby kid than a Barbie kid. But I do I

Josué Cardona 18:16
that movie also came out just now.

Link Keller 18:17
Oh, no, I don’t think I can handle that. Um, but, ya know, I had Barbies. And I had Barbie clothes and some accessories. I had the veterinarian Barbie, because when I was very young, that’s what I would tell everybody I wanted to be when I grew up. My grandmother, before I went to live with her, owned a hair salon, and did hair for her profession. And when she was in the height of that career, she would do hair for, like runway shows. So she’d be like flying out to Germany to do runway shows and stuff like that. And so one of the times that she did that she brought me back a special German Barbie, which was the prized Barbie for quite a while. Right up until I put her hair in a ponytail, high ponytail and chopped it off.

Lara Taylor 19:17
That’s kind of what I did.

Link Keller 19:17
And then I had I had that immediate realization of like, that’s not how you cut hair. I know better. I’ve seen my grandmother cut hair, you don’t put it all into a ponytail on the top of their head and then chop it off. It makes a very ugly haircut and it does not grow back and so I hid fancy German Barbie way back underneath my bed. Because I didn’t want to get in trouble for ruining my expensive fancy German Barbie which honestly probably was not that fancy or expensive. It was probably just literally a Barbie from Germany. But I hid it for a while and then when I finally got found out and I was like oh this is that I’m gonna get I’m gonna get in big trouble. Well, my grandmother thought it was just adorable that I was trying to cut her hair like Oh, you were trying to be a hairstyle is Oh, that’s so sweet. And I’m like, WOO got away with it? My crimes. but yeah, I had and I can’t remember exactly how she was related to me. I think she was my Grand Aunt. So my my maternal mom’s sister I think that’s how we were related. Anyways, a relative when I would go to North Carolina in the summers as a child, she made these gorgeous Barbie houses rooms furniture out of there’s probably a name for it. I don’t know what it’s called, but that you use like plastic grids. And then you do cross stitch over it with yarn. And then you can tie the pieces together and so she made like, she made me a house and a bed and a couch out of the you know, the plastic and yarn. And I thought that that was so cool. But at some points they got hand me down to somebody else without my knowledge and so they are hopefully still together in some loving home being played with but most likely they got thrown away at some point. But yeah,

Josué Cardona 19:23
They’re weird Barbies now

Link Keller 20:33
Weird Barbies. Yeah, don’t I don’t have any of my Barbies anymore. I didn’t keep any of those. I kept. I kept my American doll. And I kept my favorites of the many many Beanie Babies I had. But yeah, Barbie Barbie wasn’t as big of a thing for me. And I think part of that was the way that I liked to play with Barbies is just dressing them up and not so much of the imagination play. And I was not I did not come from a wealthy enough family to support the amount of clothes that I would have wanted for my Barbie. But yeah, I I still deeply resonated with the Barbie movie and I think it’s less to do with Barbie itself and more to do with Barbies story and her discovery of the way that patriarchy works and is harming her. And I think that’s, Many non binary people like me felt a very similar way towards that realization and then the sort of off characters of Allan and weird Barbie as being representative of the queer experience. And so I really resonated with that stuff. I love weird Barbie so much so so so much. I do. Kate McKinnon did an interview where she said when when she was talking with Greta Gerwig about being weird Barbie she said hey, you know if we’re going to do this right weird Barbie has to be naked, which in my experience is true weird Barbies. You’re not going to put the clothes on the weird Barbie. So I’m a little disappointed. Weird Barbie wasn’t naked.

Lara Taylor 23:38
they wanted to keep that PG 13 rating

Josué Cardona 23:42
I can’t believe her arms were where her arms are supposed to be and her legs where legs are supposed to be and yeah

Link Keller 23:47
Ooooh That’s my Okay, that’s my other weird Barbie that I didn’t mutilate but I did watch excitedly No, my, my slightly older boy cousin came over to hang out and we were playing and I showed him that I had just gotten one of the I don’t remember if it was McDonald’s or Burger King, but they were doing a Barbie line of gymnast Barbie and like her Her body was bendy.

Lara Taylor 24:15
Probably Probably McDonald’s. They usually do Barbie

Link Keller 24:18
probably McDonald’s but that is it was you know not full Barbie sizes like little Barbie size and the body was like soft plastic. Basically, he removed all her limbs in and burned off her hair and I kept her, in those pieces, for a While ummm

Josué Cardona 24:42
were you upset when he did that?

Link Keller 24:43
No, I was I was rapt. I was like I had never even occurred to me that we could do this. I’m sort of looking at my other Barbie is like, hmm, but then I was like, Oh wait, I don’t want to get in trouble because I got scottfree for the German Barbie. I don’t want to this one I can blame on Charlie. It’s not my fault. Oh, but yeah, I did. I did keep that tragic gymnast Barbie as you put her in a little box and cover her with a little napkin and now she’s sick Barbie and Dr. Barbie is coming to treat her

Lara Taylor 25:17
huh Mattel put out a weird Barbie that they’re selling after the movie.

Link Keller 25:28
[Link makes pained noises]

Lara Taylor 25:28
And it’s not weird it’s not weird enough her hair looks so normal and someone I know said that she looks like an eccentric art teacher. That’s about it. Yeah.

Link Keller 25:42
Art teacher Barbie,

Lara Taylor 25:42
but that that we also we also we also like Googled weird Barbie like just for images afterward because we were looking at what the weird Barbie that we’re selling looks like. And the next image was a Barbie shoved into a coor’s can.

Link Keller 26:03
Oh the one that’s flying around?

Lara Taylor 26:04
I think so. Yeah,

Link Keller 26:05
yeah, no tik tok has been showing me real choice weird Barbie videos. My favorite. Well okay, my two favorites. One is Barbies head and then a weird three pronged stick to her two legs so it’s just head and legs.

Lara Taylor 26:24
I feel like Toy Story did weird Barbie better.

Link Keller 26:27
Yes. Yes. absolutely

Marc Cuiriz 26:29
one hundred percent

Link Keller 26:30
But the other really good one. I may have sent it to you guys but a woman when she was a child, her house burned down. And so her uncle went back in and looked around in the wreckage and pulled out a Barbie that had been like underneath something plastic and the plastic melted down over the Barbie and he like cut whatever. It was like a desk that it was on top of any like cut the piece of desk out so she’s got this like what’s it what? I’m trying to make a star wars han solo

Josué Cardona 27:05
Han solo?

Link Keller 27:05
yeah,

Josué Cardona 27:07
carbonite

Link Keller 27:07
Carbonite. Thank you, I’m like adamantium is not the right one. Carbonite. So it’s like Barbie Carbonite is very funny. I was like, that’s a perfect weird Barbie actually. Um, but yeah, I am loving seeing people share their their Barbie stuff and talk about, you know, what the movie made them feel and how they felt, you know, connected and seen and loved. And I think that’s beautiful.

Lara Taylor 27:36
I think there was a lot of crying during America Ferrera’s characters, like, rant

Josué Cardona 27:42
monologue.

Link Keller 27:44
Yeah, I got teary eyed during that.

Lara Taylor 27:46
Yeah,

Josué Cardona 27:47
yeah, my sister hasn’t seen the movie but she told me she’s she’s seen the monologue.

Lara Taylor 27:52
It is the truth. Every word

Josué Cardona 27:56
Yeah

Lara Taylor 28:00
One thing I love that came out of the whole thing was red carpet questions. Someone asked America Ferrera what would what would you bring back from Barbie land if you could and she said all woman Supreme Court

Josué Cardona 28:19
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, at least those

Link Keller 28:25
I really, really love this movie. I do. Like there. There are some valid criticisms we sort of touched on. They focused on like, patriarchy and Barbie story of discovering the patriarchy and what that feels like and I think they succeeded very well on that but they did absolutely like sweep away the commercialism and consumerism aspects is like you get a one off joke and like we’re not going to dive too deep in that which I don’t love but I understand however my my one like legitimate annoyance criticism is I really did not like either of the the Mount Rushmore joke and the smallpox blanket. I don’t know if it was supposed to be a joke, joke has got quote air quotation marks on it, but I thought that was really important taste. I wish that they had just cut that completely.

Josué Cardona 29:24
What’s the smallpox thing I don’t remember

Link Keller 29:27
when the Barbies come back and discover the Kens have taken over and the they say that the other Barbies didn’t have any protection from the patriarchy. And then they analogize that to like the natives when the British came with the smallpox blankets. And it’s like, that’s really not the same vibe

Lara Taylor 29:58
No

Link Keller 29:58
at all and it feels was real weird and gross in like surrounded by all of these other really, you know interesting ways of engaging with intense topics in it’s just that throwaway line and then the Mount Rushmore is like that’s also not cool for indigenous people but I did love the music.

Lara Taylor 30:25
The soundtrack was on fire soundtrack.

Josué Cardona 30:28
Okay, well okay, okay on the thing on the music. Yes, this the the matchbox 20 song. Okay, afterwards I was like, I remember the song like what does that even mean? Like I was looking at I’ll look up the lyrics on genius and because the lyrics go, I want to push you around. Right? I was reminded as I want to push you away. But obviously the song is I want to push you around and that felt aggressive

Link Keller 30:55
are you getting a hint of sexual violence here?

Josué Cardona 31:03
A little bit? yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Link Keller 31:07
Truly the perfect song, though, for that scene of really nailing that like this is so uncomfortable and the playing guitar at a woman. I don’t know if any of you guys have experienced that. But that is not a rare experience. Yeah, I the Billy Eilish song. Yeah, that one that one is still floating around in my noggin. And then I’ve watched the video that they made to go with it a couple of times. I think that one’s really cool. People who haven’t seen it, Billy Eilish has a bunch of like, Barbie sized clothes, but it’s close from like Billy Eilish’s his music career and so from like music videos and stuff. I just think it’s a really cool detail. Especially within the context of this movie being you know, dolls and real women and the crossover and all that stuff.

Lara Taylor 32:07
Yeah, yeah. Indigo Girls closer to fine. The second I heard the first layer is like, lyrics to that singing every time it came up in the movie every single time. I know all the words to that song. And the Lizzo music in the beginning. So good. So good. I want someone to just sing about what I do every day, all day.

Marc Cuiriz 32:40
Yeah. And just kind of cutting it and be like, Hey, you good every time you like pick a stumble? Exactly.

Lara Taylor 32:47
Exactly. Like someone’s just watching. No, I don’t want that.

Marc Cuiriz 32:51
Are you Sure. is it what you really want?

Lara Taylor 32:57
No. But yeah, it was great. The soundtrack was so good. Yeah.

Marc Cuiriz 33:05
You know, one of the comments that I had made after walking out of the movie, was I was like, they could not have casted a better person to play Allan. And Michael Cera. I was like, he’s like, I was like, this is like the embodiment of an Allan honestly. And, and then my wife and I, like she was talking to some of her friends that had also seen the movie, and they called me and Allan and I was like, you know, I don’t know how to think about like, how I should how I should take that and like, I they’re like, no, no, it’s like, because Allan was like an ally. He was there. He supported all the stuff. Like he was all for it and everything. And I was like, okay, I can see that. But also, it’s it’s Allan. Allan, like, no one remembers Allan, I’m like, y’know. This is like a backhanded comment, like compliment right now.

Josué Cardona 34:05
That wasn’t a compliment.

Link Keller 34:07
no, it was a compliment. I love Allan.

Josué Cardona 34:10
So Alan is meant to be like, great. I mean, the joke is that he’s invisible. Right? Nobody knows who he is. Nobody remembers him. I don’t even remember. Any of the Kens acknowledging him.

Link Keller 34:22
Not really.

Josué Cardona 34:23
and He’s supossedly. Yeah, right.

Marc Cuiriz 34:28
best friend, but they didn’t acknowledge him at all.

Josué Cardona 34:30
Yeah. Just as a side note, right. I think I think Michael Cera. Like, is typecast as that. Right? Right. Yeah. Except in I, but I still remember him and Scott Pilgrim. Were like, he’s not like a great character. But like, he’s,

Link Keller 34:52
no he’s pretty bad. Scott Pilgrim is not a Cool Guy,

Josué Cardona 34:56
I know, but he kick ass, you know, and you’re that you’re still like that. That’s a quote that I liked the movie and he’s got, you know, like, he’s,

Link Keller 35:05
I will give you that Scott Pilgrim is more Ken than Allan.

Josué Cardona 35:08
Yes, yes. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Link Keller 35:12
No, I like hearing like trans masc people talk about Allan and as sort of representative of the trans masc experience where it’s like, so, so much of your identity is around conforming to and fitting in to Ken’s clothes. But then, you know, when it comes down to it, recognizing that you have more solidarity with the women specifically, but people who are oppressed under patriarchy is like i He’s like, I gotta get out of here. And so I really like that and then you know, with weird Barbie sort of representing like the queer women experience where you have all these similar experiences, but you are still held on like the outside the edges of womanhood and I think that the the gender the gender stuff is really yummy. Which is so I think it’s so interesting because there’s like very little like sexuality represented within this movie. But gender comes up a lot. I think that is really cool.

Josué Cardona 36:18
Yeah, yeah. The the Barbie world is so exaggerated, right? Both at the beginning when it when it’s Barbie land, then when it’s Kendom, right, it’s to its to complete extremes. And it’s so I don’t know, I kept thinking. From my perspective, it’s like, they just showed the things that most embarrassed me about other men. Like, like, right, like coming coming from right coming from from from a male perspective. It’s like, Ah, okay, so I saw I saw the movie at the Alamo. And there’s an Alamo right by which also, like, the alamo’s great, right? So like, at the beginning, they had all these old videos and all this stuff is fantastic. Always go to an Alamo if you can. But this Alamo theater is by Wrigley Field where the Cubs play. And I didn’t know that there was a game at the same time as the movie. So when I left the movie, everybody had was leaving the game. And I walk out and the theater is on a third floor and I look out onto the street and there’s people walking around. And there’s a bar right in front. And there’s a guy in shorts with his shirt off and like a backwards hat and glasses on. I was like, it’s like this guy came out of the movie. It was like he was just one of these douchebag Kens that just came out and

Link Keller 37:42
he was ready to do beach.

Josué Cardona 37:44
He was just doing beach. He that’s all he was doing. At the bar. It was so it was so funny. It’s almost like they hired somebody, like there were Barbies everywhere. And someone’s like we need some Kens in here too. And they they pay this guy but I on on the gender stuff and I mean it can be it can be also, it’s just interesting that so Barbies are the whole world revolves around them right Barbie land. And then Ken feels invisible. And then when he gets the chance to do it, to do like to flip the table, he completely fits the table like exactly the same. He treats them just like they treated him.

Link Keller 38:32
No. And I’m gonna push back against that claim.

Josué Cardona 38:34
Okay, okay, push back, push back do it do it do it

Link Keller 38:37
in the beginning Barbie lands. And this is true within the production of Barbie; Ken is an accessory.

Josué Cardona 38:44
Yes, yes, yes.

Link Keller 38:46
So he does not have the fullness of personhood that Barbie is given. Right. And so the Barbies do not mistreat the Kens, they don’t give them a ton of attention. And they don’t center them in any way. They’re mostly just ignored. Kens go do their own thing. When they flip it, the Kens put the Barbies in positions of servitude.

Josué Cardona 39:13
Yes,

Link Keller 39:13
and dress them specific ways.

Josué Cardona 39:16
This is a good point. I can’t argue with that

Link Keller 39:17
So so that switch is not is not a one for one. It is very much informed by the patriarchal world that Ken saw where women serve and dress the way that men tell them to. So I do i

Josué Cardona 39:36
Well, that’s good. That’s good. That’s a good clarification it Well, I

Link Keller 39:39
think it’s extra important to point out for us, but I do also think that I hope that lots of audience members did catch that because it would be so easy to just be like well yeah, Barbies did it first and then the Kens just copied them but that that violence and enforcing servitude and all of those aspects that is more correlated to our real life world. And less so the fantastical version of Barbie where the Barbies all have these amazing jobs and do whatever they want, and they Kens hang out and do beach. Not saying that there aren’t women who do beach in the real world. That obviously also exists, but you know, it, it is very much like I and I think that that’s been some of the pushback from people is like, in the way that it resolves the like solution to Ken’s patriarchy is to give him attention. And to tell him like, Oh, you are important, and you do matter. And I’m sorry, I didn’t make you feel that way before, which some people are pushing back against because it’s like, that sort of feels like oh, well, the reason like in the real world we have patriarchy is because we don’t we don’t tell men that we appreciate them enough. And it’s like, Oh, I hope that that is not the takeaway. Yeah.

Josué Cardona 41:12
Like, they’re not like intentionally, right. It’s like, they just activated they turned on patriarchy, and immediately the Barbies became subservient. Right. It’s not like it, just like in the opposite way. The kens were just accessories. But once they acted, because I guess it was just Barbie land. Right. It wasn’t it wasn’t representing Yeah, thing, in particular, and once patriarchy came in, they defaulted into. And

Link Keller 41:39
I think that that that is such a good opening conversation of the way that we socialized little boys within the patriarchy. And the ways is like, it’s most men who will absolutely utilize the patriarchy to their own benefit. Or like, rationalizing it in that way. They’re doing like that is what was taught to me when I saw and so I’m, they’re doing what they see.

Josué Cardona 42:05
So are the women’s, the women’s. Yeah,

Link Keller 42:09
yes. And so having that I, you know, it could have gone harder. But I think within the context of the Barbie movie, I think that that was a good way of showcasing both like the way that patriarchy gets passed between men isn’t necessarily this nefarious, like, secret cult of like, we’re now initiating you into the woman haters club is like, no, it’s like, no, you see a guy do a thing and you’re like, that worked for him. I’m gonna try it. And then it’s like, ooh, all society keeps supporting that pattern.

Lara Taylor 42:37
I think that leans into the if she can see it, she can be it kind of thing, right? Or she can like, the kens didn’t see patriarchy. And then they this ken saw patriarchy and was like, that’s what I’m gonna do I want that. Um,

Link Keller 42:53
well and I think it’s also really important that like Ken explicitly says he’s like, once I realized it wasn’t about horses, I lost interest. And I think that that is also like, reflective of a lot of real men’s experiences where they’re like, I thought like the patriarchy meant I was I was personally going to get a bunch of power and it doesn’t really shake out that way. And they’re like, Yeah, honestly, it kind of sucks. I don’t like this anymore. I thought I was gonna get more horses

Marc Cuiriz 43:22
you know, when when I think about like the the when you guys brought up the idea of like the switch between like how it is in the beginning of the movie with Barbie land, and then it switches to Kendom part of me was like, viewed Kendom is like the patriarchy like at its core. So like, you know, like when when Ken’s like talking to all the men in the real world? They’re like, No, no, it’s still around. Like we’re still very much like, this is how we want to do things. We’re just sneakier about it. And so I feel like with Ken he’s like, how about let’s just not make it sneaky? And just like it really just through like the blood through the patriarchy in your face it like it like shoved it down. Your gall. It was like here, you want patriarchy. This is what it will look like. Like this is essentially what it looks like. It’s like most exaggerated form but also in its purest form. I think I

Link Keller 44:12
do I do like the the joke of once Ken has become indoctrinated by the patriarchy, he goes to get jobs and he goes to all these jobs where he’s completely unqualified, and it’s just like, Yeah, I can get this job easy.

Lara Taylor 44:28
that’s not how it works dude.

Link Keller 44:30
That’s so funny. That’s sometimes is how it works. oh man Yeah,

Marc Cuiriz 44:37
yeah.

Josué Cardona 44:37
Cuz you need experience. And he’s like, do I though?

Link Keller 44:40
Do I though??

Marc Cuiriz 44:43
and the guy is like, no, but like, we have to, like, say these things because it’s just, you know, it’s to cover our bases and make sure that like, people aren’t just thinking it’s like a patriarchal thing, even though in reality, they’re like, no, like, we would probably give you this job if we wanted to. It’s just that we have to, like go through these things because we have to make it seem like the patriarchy isn’t around as prevalent as it used to be. And so, I don’t know, I just felt like that was like an interesting thing of like, it’s like, here you go, you want patriarchy. Here it is. And then just kind of like, having to experience like, the huge like, like the complete like I don’t wanna say 180 Because it’s not a 180 it’s more like a 270

Josué Cardona 45:34
Barbie land is like a like an amplifier or something like that right? It’s like introduce patriarchy and boom that’s what you got. You could do a sequel where you introduced some other system

Marc Cuiriz 45:45
oligarchy I don’t know I don’t know. I

Josué Cardona 45:49
don’t know you get you get you get install some other system right and it would just go to its extreme which is which is like that’s what Barbie land in a way is if you take you know if you take that concept to its extreme as well that any any any new ideas that you introduced to it would be could potentially take over? If the if the Barbies. Why did the Barbie do we know? We don’t get to see? Actually clarify this for me. How does Barbie land turn into kendom? Like how do all the Barbies just suddenly get brainwashed?

Marc Cuiriz 46:32
I think the way they interpreted like how they how they explained it was that the barrier between Barbie land and the real world was it was disintegrating basically. So because of that the influences of Barbie land and the influences of the real world they were entered in like a they were intermingling with each other. So if he brings over a real world concept, it’s now manifesting itself in this in this way, so if he comes in and proclaims this, and it’s like a because of that influence like that. It’s almost like a magic thing, I think, where it’s like, oh, we’re bringing because like once he made the Mi casa, dojo, whatever

Josué Cardona 47:17
mojo dojo casa house.

Marc Cuiriz 47:18
There you go. Then all of a sudden, they’re like, Yo, these mojo Dojo Casa houses are flying off the shelves

Josué Cardona 47:24
got it

Marc Cuiriz 47:24
because they were really influenced. Yeah, the real world influenced Barbie land to create kendom and then Kendom by that because of that influenced the real world by creating its own line of things.

Josué Cardona 47:41
Okay, okay.

Lara Taylor 47:43
Yeah, so it was like a magic thing, the same way that like, the deprogramming was literally her going off on this like, monologue and this rant and all of a sudden they snap out of it.

Josué Cardona 47:57
Okay okay I’m only somewhat satisfied

Link Keller 48:04
Well, I mean what the what you’re talking about is like what they tried to explain with that that line about the smallpox that that was what they were trying to cover that sort of plot hole

Josué Cardona 48:16
got it Yeah, yeah

Lara Taylor 48:17
yeah, yeah.