Kiki Smith says she didn’t really start making drawings of people until she was 40. Once she had aged a little, she looked in the mirror and saw lines— something “to hang onto” as an artist. At 70, she says it’s the hags and witches who attract her most.

In this episode, Kim speaks with Kiki about portraying older women’s bodies and how aging has influenced her work. Kiki’s female subjects sometimes evoke biblical figures or characters from fairy tales, and they’re often connected to nature— to wolves and birds and stars. “Society is always trying to shrink people’s sense of self or possibilities,” she says. “How they experience the world is much larger.”

This episode was inspired by a self-portrait of Alice Neel, who painted herself at her easel, naked, when she was 80 years old.

See the portraits we discussed:

Alice Neel self-portrait

Cradling Dead Cat (1999-2000), by Kiki Smith

Poisoned Witch (2012), by Kiki Smith

Free Fall, by Kiki Smith