Hardly Working with Brent Orrell

With automation changing the nature of work before our very eyes,

it is more important than ever that we begin to re-think our approach to

education, the workforce, and yes, even thinking itself.

In this episode of Hardly Working, Brent is joined by journalist

and acclaimed science writer Annie Murphy Paul to discuss how we can tap into

our bodies, surroundings, and other people to think better in an increasingly

complex economy and society. We discuss some of the insights from Murphy’s

latest book The Extended Mind, including why thinking of the brain as a

computer is problematic, the inherently social aspect of learning, and how to

shape a world that works for the kind of thinking our brains evolved to do.

Mentioned During the Show

The Extended Mind – Annie Murphy Paul

Origins: How the Nine Months Before Birth Shape the Rest of Our Lives

The Cult of Personality Testing

The Extended Mind – Andy Clark and David Chalmers

How Our Brains Make the World - Iain McGilchrist

Stanford University – Human-Centered Artificial Intelligence

The Master and His Emissary – Iain McGilchrist

St. John’s College

The Liberal Sciences and the Lost Arts of Learning

When we hear the word “vocation”, many people think vocational training and technical education. But, the word “vocation” has deeper roots in the idea of a calling or an occupation to which a person is especially drawn, suited, trained, or qualified. By no means is this calling obvious, and in fact finding vocation often means a series of unpredictable twists and turns until one finds themselves in a career they would never have imagined at the beginning of their journey.

For this episode of Hardly Working, I am joined by Andrew Donaldson to discuss his own vocational journey. He is a writer at Ordinary Times magazine and “Yonder and Home” where he ties together politics, history, culture, food, faith, and place through words and stories. We discuss Andrews upbringing in West Virginia, his military career and vocational transition out of the military, the ongoing crisis of opioid addiction in Appalachia, and of course his writing on everything from Waffle House to the bifurcation of conservatism. Donaldson’s story reflects relentless perseverance, profound sense of place, and the sorts of connections – to family, food, and faith – that sit at the heart of what it means to be human.

Mentioned During the Show

Ordinary Times

Glenville Extension (State College)

VA Tuition Assistance

GI Bill Benefits

Yonder and Home- History of Waffle House

Waffle House Index

Hillbilly Elegy

JD Vance

Christmas in Appalachia (video)

Study on Opioid abuse in coal and non-coal producing counties

Midnight Mass: Nearer my God to Thee

Logan Lucky

Yonder and Home- A Poem, A Prayer & A Promise: The Power of Take Me Home, Country Roads

Hallelujah Chorus (not in WV)

Andrew Donaldson Twitter

Heard Tell Podcast

In the 1960s, President Lyndon B. Johnson began the so-called War on Poverty, expanding the federal government’s role in reducing poverty in the United States. At one level, this effort has been an overwhelming success: consumption poverty (the number of people who cannot afford basic goods and services) has fallen from 30 percent to 3 percent. At another level, the War on Poverty has failed, severe poverty continues to persist especially in terms of social dysfunction like unmarried births, educational failure, addiction and incarceration. 

The U.S. last reformed its welfare system in 1996, bringing significant new reductions to welfare dependency and child poverty. Some policymakers have begun to suggest that a new round of reform that seeks to shift public benefit programs more toward empowerment rather than maintenance of individuals and families.  They hope to create opportunities for Americans by strengthening communities, increasing social capital, and spurring economic growth.  

On this episode of “Hardly Working”, I am joined by Paul Ryan, former speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives and founder of the American Idea Foundation. We discuss how Ryan reconciles his commitment to the free market with his Catholic faith, his efforts to advance evidence-based policies to fight poverty, and modern-day populism and the future of conservatism.  

Mentioned During the Episode:

Jack Kemp

Chicago School of Economics

Austrian School of Economics

Theory of Moral Sentiments by Adam Smith

AEI’s Adam Smith Seminar

Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam

Nurse-Family Partnership

Raj Chetty

American Idea Foundation

The Evidence Act

Study on Upward Mobility and Geographic Indicators

Office of Management and Budget

Many Americans Make More on Unemployment

Expanding economic opportunity for working and middle-class families has been a policy priority for decades, but there are better and worse ways to approach this end-goal. In fact, policies of the past have at times ended up being counterproductive, putting further constraints on working-class families or discouraging healthy behaviors like two-parent child rearing. Understanding the interplay between policy prescriptions and incentive structures on the one hand and family formation, social capital, and intergenerational mobility on the other hand, is a key part of supporting workers and working families.

AEI director of poverty studies, Scott Winship’s recent report, Reforming tax credits to promote child opportunity and aid working families, explores just this interplay when it comes to tax relief for families. In this episode of “Hardly Working”, Scott Winship and I discuss his recent findings, his policy proposals for tax credit reform, the current state and history of safety net programs, as well as how to support social capital development. The discussion centers on constructing a safety net that offering low-income families the support they need to achieve upwardly mobile life paths

Mentioned During the Episode:

Reforming tax credits to promote child opportunity and aid working families

How Did the Social Policy Changes of the 1990s Affect Material Hardship among Single Mothers? Evidence from the CPS Food Security Supplement

Democratic Strategist Magazine

Pew Charitable Trusts – Economic Mobility Project

Scott Winship Twitter

$2.00 a Day: Living on Almost Nothing in America

The Anti-Poverty, Targeting, and Labor Supply Effects of the Proposed Child Tax Credit Expansion

Opinion: Why extending the current child tax credit would do more harm than good

The Demise of the Happy Two-Parent Home

Joint Economic Committee - Social Capital Project

Love, Marriage, and the Baby Carriage: The Rise in Unwed Childbearing

Zoning, Land-Use Planning, and Housing Affordability

Long shadows: The Black-White gap in multigenerational poverty

Neighborhoods and the Black White Mobility Gap

When the Federal pandemic-related UI programs ended on September 6th, 2021, many Americans became aware of what low-income, government program-dependent Americans have long been aware of – a benefits cliff. This cliff occurs when public benefits taper off or phase out quickly, forcing beneficiaries to choose between earning more or maintaining what is often a vital subsidy. It is a classic Catch-22. These cliffs impact both short-term work incentives and long-term opportunities for growth in wages.

On this episode of “Hardly Working”, am joined by Dr. Alex Ruder, the principal advisor of Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta’s Community and Economic Development team. We discuss Dr. Ruder’s vocational journey in workforce development policy, the Career Ladder Identifier and Financial Forecasting (CLIFF) tool that he helped develop, and the future of federal benefits and benefits cliffs post-pandemic.

Mentioned During the Episode:

AEI’s upcoming event on UI Reform 

St. Louis Federal Reserve Publication on 1918 Influenza

Brent Orrell on how “Learning to Code” Isn’t Enough

Alex Ruder on Understanding and Overcoming Benefits Cliffs

Alex Ruder on Benefit Plateaus

Childcare Benefits Cliff Florida Case Study

Effective Marginal Tax Rate Series on Effective Tax Rates

Alex Ruder on Benefits Cliffs and Career Pathways

Entry-Level Healthcare Workforce Report

Programs on Smoothing Out Benefits Cliff Effects

Economic Self-Sufficiency Measures as a State Goal

MIT’s Living Wage Measure

UW’s Self-Sufficiency Standard Measurement

St. Louis Federal Reserve’s Cost of Living Index

Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) Programs

World Economic Outlook (WEO) Metrics

The Atlanta Fed on the Affordability of Childcare

Mason Bishop on Utah Dept. of Workforce Services

Brent Orrell on Unemployed Worker Incentives Survey

In March of 2020, the remote workforce skyrocketed from just 7 percent of the working population to nearly 40 percent at the height of the pandemic. The pandemic is winding down but it appears remote work is here to stay.

In this episode of Hardly Working, I’m joined by Stanford economist Dr. Nicholas (Nick) Bloom to talk about the future of remote work, the worker-employer contest over returning to the office, and the productivity gains from different work arrangements: entirely remote, in-person, or some form of hybrid work. After nearly a decade of researching remote work, Dr. Bloom brings with him extensive quantitative knowledge of the subject and a clear, logical framework for understanding what remote work means for workers and businesses.

Mentioned During the Episode:

Dr. Bloom's Personal Website

Brent’s Recent Report: Looking back on a year of remote work to see the way forward

Institute of Fiscal Studies (IFS)

Who Can Work from Home?

The Productivity Boost from Remote Work

Workers Would Take a 6 Percent Pay Cut to WFH

J.P. Morgan Requires Employees to Return to the Office

Deutsche Bank Unveils Hybrid Work Model

Patent for Technologies that Support WFH Increased during COVID-19

Michael Strain: COVID-19 Taught Me to Stay Home When Sick

Bloom: Don’t Let Employees Pick Their WFH Days

COVID-19’s Impact on City Centers

Companies Raising Wages during COVID-19

AEI Survey on Remote Work Preferences

In the age of rapid economic development and changing workforce demands, noncognitive skills are “master skills” which serve as a foundation for and amplify cognitive and technical skills. Communication, integrity, and organizational soft skills are in top demand by employers, and building and strengthening these characteristics is an essential part of preparing a strong workforce for the future.

This episode of "Hardly Working" is a rebroadcast of an event surrounding the publication of AEI’s recently released edited volume “Minding our workforce: The role of noncognitive skills in career success.”

This is Part II of a two-part podcast series of this event. You will hear from Harry J. Holzer of Georgetown University on the application of noncognitive skills to the labor market and the limitations of what we know about noncognitive skills and noncognitive skill development. Then, Elisabeth Babcock of Economic Mobility Pathways will discuss noncognitive skills, mentoring, and coaching for low-income, welfare-dependent families. Part I featured Albert Cheng of the University of Arkansas and Diane Whitmore Schanzenbach of Northwestern University.

Mentioned During the Episode

Minding our workforce: The role of noncongnitive skills in career success

Minding our workforce live event at AEI

Episode 54- Minding Our Workforce, Part 1

Harry Holzer

Elizabeth Babcock, MCRP

Diane Schanzenback on Noncognitive Skills

Becoming a Man Chicago

EMPath Leadership Network

In today’s rapidly changing economy, noncognitive skills development is the key to building a flexible, resilient, and strong workforce for today and in the future. Such skills include communication, integrity, and organization. They are in top demand by employers today, and uncovering how to develop them is an essential workforce policy area.

This episode of "Hardly Working" is a rebroadcast of an AEI event on noncognitive skills this past summer. The event served as a follow-up to AEI’s recently released edited volume “Minding our workforce: The role of noncognitive skills in career success.” This is part I of a two-part podcast series of this event. Stay tuned for part II. Part I features several of the contributing authors to the volume, including Albert Cheng of the University of Arkansas and Diane Whitmore Schanzenbach of Northwestern University.

In part II, you will hear from Harry J. Holzer of Georgetown University and Elisabeth Babcock of Economic Mobility Pathways.

Mentioned During the Episode

Minding our workforce: The role of noncognitive skills in career success

STEM without fruit: how noncognitive skills improve workforce outcomes

Stem perspective: Attitudes, opportunities, and barriers in America's STEM workforce

Elisabeth Babcock

Albert Cheng

Harry Holzer

Diane Whitmore Schanzenbach

Twenty-first century automation is fueling an ongoing debate around the future of work. Is the end to human labor around the corner? Will robots replace us? The short answer is no. The longer answer is that work is changing fast and will likely require the capacity to adapt and constant upgrading of skills.

In this episode of "Hardly Working", I was joined by Jamie Merisotis, president and CEO of the Lumina Foundation to discuss what automation means for work. We discussed his most recent book Human Work in the Age of Smart Machines, the connection between education and employment, the value of human abilities, and what the future workforce may look like and require of us. 

Mentioned During the Episode: 

Jamie Merisotis’s Website 

Human Work in the Age of Smart Machines

American Needs Talent

Twitter: @jamiemerisotis 

Lumina Foundation Website

On Automation of Repetitive Tasks

Minding Our Workforce: The Role of Noncognitive Skills in Career Success

On Technology Creating Jobs

Brent Orrell on the Real Value of Work

Brent Orrell on “Soft Skills” and University Education

Ken Goldberg on Human-Machine Complementarity

Jamie Merisotis on Human Work

Hardly Working on Restoring the Dignity to Work

Gallup Poll on Work That Matters

James Merisotis On Universal basic income

On the Garbage Collector Staying Optimistic During COVID-19

NY Times on Home Care Aides During COVID-19

Photo of Domino’s Pizza Workers in Texas

Jamie Merisotis on Hybrid Work Models

James Meristis on Preparing People for Career Adjacency 

Rachel Lipson and David Demming on Worker Transitions

Lumina Foundation on Credentials and Pathways

Fed Chair Jerome Powell Speech on the Labor Market

On Northern European Models for Retraining

AEI on Workforce Recovery from COVID

IBM on Soft Skills

The liberal arts are a frequent political punching bag for partisans on both sides of the aisle. Progressives have gotten used to “deconstructing” the “dead White males” of Western classics, leading populists to view them as either irrelevant for finding work or an actual threat to students’ well-being. 

What if neither view was right? What if the liberal arts are more important and more beneficial than they get credit for? 

One place where this idea has been put into practice since the 1930s is St. John’s College in Annapolis, Maryland. St. John’s is famous for its great books curriculum, which takes the foundational texts of Western civilization seriously as the starting point for a life well lived and, somewhat surprisingly, a strong foundation for work and career. St. John’s president, Pano Kanelos, joined the podcast for a conversation about what the liberal arts are and why we need them more than ever.

Mentioned during the show:

Critical race theory debate

St. John’s website

About Pano Kanelos 

University Professors Program at Boston University 

Derek Walcott

Geoffrey Hill

Roger Scruton 

Saul Bellow 

University of Chicago Committee on Social Thought

Mark Strand 

‘The Life of the Mind: The Groundbreaking Investigation on How We Think

Know thyself

History of St. John's College

Brent Orrell’s visit to St. John’s

Machiavelli’s ‘The Prince’

St. John’s College winery

Pano Kanelos’ new funding model

Pano Kanelos’ farewell interview