In this episode Joel, Steve and friends explore how attempting to help people can sometimes cause harm. Steve lays out four types of people that cause harm. We explore the potentially side of toxic empathy and sympathy. The importance of informed practice. We also begin a conversation on: How much MI do people actually need to know to be helpful? Thanks the guests Brendan Murphy, Shaun Shelly and our host at Florida State University Heather Flynn for sharing your wisdom and experiences.