In this episode of the Held Podcast, I chatted with Abigail Dodds about the importance of developing a theology of suffering. We talked about what a theology of suffering is, how to develop one, and walked through some common thoughts and reactions to miscarriage that cause us to doubt God's goodness in the face of our suffering. What we believe about God shapes our experience of suffering, I hope this episode will be a true help in helping you to reconcile your hard experience with a good and sovereign God.

About Abigail:

Abigail Dodds is wife to Tom and mom to five great kids. She is a Regular Contributor at Desiring God, the author of '(A)Typical Woman' (Crossway 2019), an M.A. student at Bethlehem College and Seminary, a baking enthusiast, garden fanatic, and mediocre knitter. She writes at hopeandstay.com and on instagram @abigail__dodds .

Questions in this Episode:

Would you start off by just telling us a bit about your own experience with miscarriage personally?

Today's episode is entitled "Developing a Theology of Suffering." Can you explain for us what this means, and why it's so important to have?

I know that your miscarriage led to a much longer season of hardship. Can you tell us a bit about that and perhaps use that experience as an example to show us how what we believe about God and know about his word shapes our experience of suffering? How did that season challenge or shape what you believed about God? Or maybe how did what you believed about God impact your experience of that season of suffering?

I received a message recently from a woman who has miscarried who said that that was the first time she had had to deal with "senseless suffering" personally… and by that she meant, a situation in which there was no one or nothing to blame but… well, God. The intensely personal experience of experiencing death within your own body can raise a lot of theological questions, it definitely did for me! Let's think for a moment from the perspective of a listener who felt like they had a solid understanding of suffering but is suddenly feeling totally stumped by the problem of evil. If God is good, and in control, how can I reconcile the presence of evil, sickness, and death with his character?! What wisdom do you have for us here?

What are some practical ways that we can develop a theology of suffering even in the midst of it?

Maybe you could help us apply the truth to these real scenarios I have read online…

a. "I feel like God is taunting me, pregnant women and big families everywhere, even at church…"

b. I know God is trying to teach me something, but what is there left to learn? I mean really, four miscarriages?! Can we move on to another trial?!

c. For a women for whom the process is taking forever or is having a season of suffering after loss that won't let up… perhaps she's saying "I've heard the expression "refiners fire" but I feel like I have been forgotten in the kiln, maybe God is punishing me for something."

d. I've done everything I'm supposed to do! I waited until I was married to have sex, we were prayerful about when to start trying, we have served God and attended church and worked with the youth group! What more could he want from us?! How are these teen girls and drug addicts that don't even want their kids getting pregnant when I'm not?

e. "It's been a week since they told me the baby's heart had stopped. I'm still throwing up, still have this bad taste in my mouth, still so exhausted and having food aversions… The baby is dead, the least God could do is take away these symptoms!"

Questions for every guest:

What's one way God has used your experience of miscarriage to work in your heart and life?

If you could encourage a woman to meditate on or memorize any verse or short set of verses in this season, what would it be and why?

Noteworthy Quotes:

"When the miscarriage happened, I had all my theology ducks in a row. I knew what I believed about who God was— his goodness, his sovereignty— and I had all the boxes checked I knew were from his word. There was nothing lacking in that in a truly sinful or negative way. I had been well taught. And I believed what I was taught from the word. But as the scriptures talk about so often we are tested at times. And so what happens is those beliefs that are in one sense theoretical can't remain theoretical anymore. And that's what happened with my miscarriage was it was kind of that first 'I'm an adult, something bad has happened' that really impacted me personally."

"Theology is just our knowledge of God. And so a theology of Suffering would just be trying to understand what we know about God as it relates to our suffering. What does suffering mean when we believe certain things to be true about God's character. Is there a way to reconcile suffering with what we believe about the character of God? And so those are usually the types of things people are trying to sort through and work through, hopefully biblically, when they talk about developing a theology of suffering: What do we believe about God in relation to our suffering? It's often in regards to suffering that we can't relate to our own sin."

"Adam sinned. Sin entered the world through the one man, Adam. So if you zoom out, if you step back, sin still is the cause in some ways of the evil and the sickness and the death that we see in the world. There is a futility, a groaning, that has worked itself into creation that we can say is the result of sin. Not our specific sin that led to this miscarriage, but sin in general. And I think that's a helpful thing to realize and recognize. It's helpful because it allows us to grieve, and it also allows us to hate sin as we ought to, even original sin that has now gotten into everything in a way."

"God is in control. We serve a sovereign God who is completely in control of everything that happens. And if I stopped at "Oh, sin cause what happened." And if I didn't move past that or join with it that "no, that was God's plan. He planned it before the foundation of the world, he is sovereign over it,' and as a Christian we get to add 'And I know and trust that there is good in it.' And the best place I can take us to see this is the cross. Here you have Jesus, Gods own son, who is receiving the greatest evil. And yet at the same time we can read in Isaiah that it was the will of God to crush him. I don't know what to do with that. These are high thoughts. We don't go around sort of glibbly trying to reconcile them or easily fit them together in a puzzle, but what we do is we stand back and we look at this all powerful God who planned that reality of the cross, the reality of the greatest 'senseless' suffering to ever happen to happen to his Son, who did no wrong who was never deserving of anything bad to happen to him, and he worked the greatest possible of all possible goods for it—for his people."

"What was really helpful to me was to be given very small bite sized pieces of truth that I could affirm and that weren't too overwhelming."

"[We must] guard against making someone else's blessing our trial."

"Certainly God is teaching us, there is no doubt about it that he is teaching us through our trials, but not in that kind of a transactional way where if we just do X then he'll finally give us the thing we want. A Christian's deepest want is him. And so, we don't use God to get the thing we want, the thing we want is God. What's potent is that he gives us himself in the trials."

"What is there left to learn? There's left to learn the heart of God for you. [Even] if the trials don't let up, he is for you in the trials!"

"God is so much better than what you can use him for. He, himself, is the gift."

"We have a sense that there is a way things ought to be and when it doesn't go that way we can feel the futility and even that is a sign of God's purposes and plans because they will one day be as they ought."

"Go to the cross again and just keep looking to the proof, the absolutely irrefutable proof that God is for you. And the only way that you can keep reminding yourself of that reality, He's for you, He's for you, He's for you, is looking at the cross because the scriptures tell us that this is love. Keep reminding yourself of what love actually is."

"He has used [miscarriage] to help me trust his goodness and his ways more."

Scripture References:

The Book of Job

Psalm 145

Romans 5

The Book of Ecclesiastes

Psalm 131

Romans 8

Intro/ Outro Music:

My Soul Will Wait (Psalm 62) [feat. Stacy Lantz], Hilton Head Presbyterian Church

"Held" Book Purchasing Info:

purchasing link (discount code: heldpodcast10 )

(or order from amazon)

In this episode of the Held Podcast, I chatted with Irene Sun about help and service in the wake of pregnancy loss. We talked about everything from why it is sometimes difficult to ask for or receive help, to what we should do when the attempts of others to help actually end up hurting us, to where we can go when we feel like no one is offering to help us. Whether you're wrestling with pride, acutely feeling your need, or experiencing disappointment over the lack of help from your family and community, I pray that Irene's vulnerable reflections and biblical insights will be a help and a comfort to you.

About Irene Sun:

Irene Sun was born in Malaysia but has lived all over the world. She is the author of the picture book God Counts: Numbers in His World and His World. She studied liturgy and literature at Yale University (M.A.R.) and the Old Testament at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School (Th.M.). She now teaches her four boys at home with her husband Hans, is the pastor of a Chinese Church in the Pittsburgh area.

Questions in this Episode:

Would you start off by just telling us a bit about your own experience with miscarriage?

What are some of the ways that people cared for you in the wake of your loss that were really helpful and meaningful?

What do you think some reasons might be that people refuse to ask for help or decline it when it is offered after pregnancy loss or suffering in general?

What word does the bible have for women struggling to allow others to help them?

Are there good/ non-sinful reasons to refuse help?

Maybe we're overwhelmed by general offers of help like "let me know if you need anything" and even though we are overwhelmed and hurting, we don't know how to respond specifically. What help/ suggestion would you offer here?

Sometimes helping hurts. Maybe we feel violated or offended by the way someone helps us. How does God's word and the Bible offer comfort and help when this happens?

Maybe someone listening doesn't feel like anyone has offered to help or maybe feels disappointed by her husband, her family, or her church or community's response to her loss. What encouragement would you offer her?

Questions for every guest:

What's one way God has used your experience of miscarriage to work in your heart and life?

If you could encourage a woman to meditate on or memorize any verse or short set of verses in this season, what would it be and why?

Scripture References:

Psalm 73

2 Corinthians 1:3-5

Psalm 139

Psalm 84

Intro/ Outro Music:

My Soul Will Wait (Psalm 62) [feat. Stacy Lantz], Hilton Head Presbyterian Church

"Held" Book Purchasing Info:

purchasing link (discount code: heldpodcast10 )

(or order from amazon)

In this episode of the Held Podcast, I chatted with Courtney Reissig about pregnancy after loss. We talked about common struggles and temptations that women face in pregnancy after loss including fear, anxiety, cynicism, blind optimism, triggered grief, and feeling guilt over not enjoying the very thing they've hoped for. I hope it this episode will encourage you to run to the Lord with whatever you may be feeling or facing, and find that he is compassionate and trustworthy.

About Courtney Reissig:

Courtney Reissig is a writer and bible teacher living in Little Rock, Arkansas. She is the proud mom of four sons, happy wife to Daniel, and author of three books: The Accidental Feminist, Glory in the Ordinary, and Teach Me to Feel: Worshiping Through the Psalms in Every Season of Life. They are members of Immanuel Baptist Church. You can follow her on Twitter or Instagram (@courtneyreissig).

Questions in this Episode:

Would you start off by just telling us a bit about your own experience with miscarriage?

How did your experience of loss impact your own subsequent pregnancies? Positively and/ or negatively?

Let's walk through some of the common struggles or temptations that face a woman in pregnancy after loss. And talk about how the good news of the gospel and God's word offer help in that place.

a. fear

b. anxiety

c. cynicism

d. blind optimism (not thinking about negative outcomes)

e. triggered grief

f. guilt over grumbling

Practically speaking, what are some things we can do to fight this temptation/ remember the truth in those overwhelming moments?

Questions for every guest:

What's one way God has used your experience of miscarriage to work in your heart and life?

If you could encourage a woman to meditate on or memorize any verse or short set of verses in this season, what would it be and why?

Noteworthy Quotes:

"I always describe [pregnancy] as, if you're standing at the top of a black diamond mountain (and I hate black diamonds, I refuse to go down them), and you have no other way down. You're up there and you've gotta go down, like you have to do it, and you could get really hurt along the way, but the only way out of this is down. And I feel like pregnancy, for me, was like that. I'm pregnant, and I have to deliver this baby, but it could go really badly and I could get really hurt along the way."

"One of the things that I think the Lord did in my life with having hard pregnancies… What the Lord did in all of those was kind of rescue me from thinking I had any semblance of control over anything. I don't think I would have said, "Oh, i think if I do xy and z it's all going to work out fine." I wouldn't have told you that, but I know in hindsight 10 years later that that was kind of where my heart was."

"It was a real test for me to have open hands before the Lord and say, "I have no control over this. I can't keep a baby alive inside me. It sounds negative, but it's a positive!"

"I struggled to find joy in being pregnant. Instead of giving it to the Lord I would often just spin my wheels, look at message boards, look at articles, try to have some semblance of things are going to be okay… and the anxiety was just really hard for me at times."

"Another negative that it was hard for me to process was that I would feel guilty over the fact that I didn't like being pregnant."

"All of the difficulty we face in pregnancy is not how God intended pregnancy to be. So, it's all part of living in a broken world. And so in the same way that we grieve over the difficulties that this world brings us, throwing up in pregnancy is not how God intended pregnancy to be. [It's not a good thing.] And not being able to enjoy food, and being so fatigued that you can't take care of anything else. I think often-times we idealize and idolize what it means to be pregnant,..but feeling difficulty in pregnancy is just part of living in a broken world. And there's a place for grieving that and lamenting that and saying "I don't like this anymore than I like working outside in the heat without cold water. It doesn't mean you resent your baby, it just means you don't really like the process of getting your baby into the world."

"[We] as modern people may look at [the Psalms] and say "that sounds like grumbling to me," but it's also in scripture so…, that's the main distinction: are we taking our complaints and our hearts before the Lord primarily or are we airing our grievances all across the internet."

"The verse that was always at the forefront of my mind was in Psalm 20 and it says "Some trust in chariots, some trust in horses, but we trust in the name of the Lord our God." And we don't have chariots or horses to trust in today but we do have ultrasound machines and rising HCG levels and feeling the baby kick, [and sickness], and I was struck by that verse in my second pregnancy after loss that I was putting a whole lot of hope in that ultrasound showing a beating heart. And if I had that outcome, that that would remove my fear, and if I could just carry that with me to the next appointment then I could feel okay and I was just convicted and also reminded that the ultrasound's only telling me what's already there, it's not making my baby live. Only God can make my baby live."

"What I've been really convicted by lately is that when I struggle with anxiety, I have found in my own life that I don't obey Philippians 4. I just am anxious about all things. Instead of [taking] that to the Lord, I don't take that step. He's the only one that can sustain me and sustain the life of my unborn child."

"[Ask] what am I trusting in that's actually making my fear worse because it's actually something that can't save? And then where am I taking my fears and anxiety? Am I spinning my wheels or am I taking them to the Lord?"

"Part of living in a broken world is that we're vulnerable. If we love deeply we're vulnerable to pain and loss."

"I didn't handle cynicism well, but what helped me was that I had other people who hoped for me."

"We could at any given point be facing the reality of any impact of the fall. We have to be mindful of that because I think if we [aren't] then we root ourselves far too much in this world and this is not all we have."

"The heart behind that [mentality of] "I just believe this is my rainbow baby," the heart behind that is they want to believe God is good, they want to believe God loves them, they want to believe God is for them, and the only way that they can grasp and hold on to that is to believe that he's not going to let anything happen to them again. Because how could he? And I get that. It would feel cruel if your rainbow baby then becomes another miscarriage, it would feel incredibly cruel, and that's hard to work through. But it doesn't prepare you for those realities if you only think in terms of "God would never let that happen to me again." We just have to live in that tension of "I'm going to actively have faith here that God is good and that he is for me and that he's gunna do good in my life, and then I'm going to actively pray that he would let this baby live. And then I'm also going to ask God to sustain me and prepare me for whatever could come."

"I have always been comforted by Jesus's interactions with Mary and Martha in John 11. And the comfort that he provides them and the empathy he provides them in their grief– he grieves with them. And when you're having to walk through grief… you're having to go back to the same doctor's appointment, you're having to sit in the same ultrasound room, all of those things that are triggering all those fears and anxieties you had when you actually were miscarrying your baby, the nearness of the Savior and the comfort of the Savior and the fact that he's not far off; he's very near to his people, he's very near to the brokenhearted, and he tells all who are weary to come to him and find rest,... in those moments, the only way you get out of that spiral is to breathe deeply and ask the Lord to sustain you."

"To remove yourself mentally when you can't physically is sometimes what you need."

"The verses that were in my mind, and I didn't even know I knew them by heart, but they were in my mind all the time after our first miscarriage, were in Isaiah 43. And in verse 2 he says, "I will be with you, When you pass through the waters; and through the rivers, they will not overwhelm you; when not be scorched when you walk through the fire, and the flame will not burn you for I am the Lord your God." That was just in my mind all the time. I needed those reminders… I'm walking through fire here I'm walking through difficulty here and it feels like I'm being burned. It feels like I'm being burned alive and destroyed. But the Lord is with me. He's my God. He will be with me."

Scripture References:

Psalm 20

Philippians 4:13

John 11

Isaiah 43:2

Intro/ Outro Music:

My Soul Will Wait (Psalm 62) [feat. Stacy Lantz], Hilton Head Presbyterian Church

"Held" Book Purchasing Info:

purchasing link (discount code: heldpodcast10 )

(or order from amazon)

In this episode of the Held Podcast, I chatted with Gretchen Saffles about thinking and praying through "trying" after loss. We talked through some general struggles and specific scenerios that may confront a woman as she considers when to "try" or whether or not she and her husband should "try" at all after miscarriage. Gretchen shared her own experience thinking through this question, which she is still currently navigating, and helped us think through how to practice discernment about things that aren't clearly outlined in scripture. This episode is saturated with biblical encouragement and practical guidance. I hope it will encourage you as you think and pray through this question for your own family.

About Gretchen Saffles:

Gretchen Saffles is passionate about encouraging and equipping women to dig into the Word of God and find their identity and purpose in Christ. She is the founder of Well-Watered Women, an online ministry that reaches women worldwide. Through her online ministry she longs to meet women right where they are with the hope of the gospel and to ignite a desire in their hearts to know Jesus more. Gretchen lives in Atlanta, Georgia with her husband, Greg, and her two sons, Nolan and Haddon.

Questions in this Episode:

1. Would you start off by just telling us a bit about your own experience with miscarriage?

2. I know that you weren't necessarily "trying" for the baby that Greg lost to miscarriage, what was your experience like thinking and praying through growing your family after loss?

3. How do you know when the "right time" to try again is or if it's "right" to try again at all?

4. What are some practical things we should do as we consider "trying" or "trying again?" What are some specific questions we should ask ourselves or ask the Lord?

5. Let's walk through a few scenarios of pregnancy after loss and maybe you can share some wisdom with us for each one…

a woman wants to grow her family but is really afraid to lose another baby and doesn't feel like she's in a stable place emotionally or "ready" for that

a woman doesn't feel ready to try but her husband is really pushing to become pregnant again

a woman is eager to try again because she feels like it will take her pain away/ help her to heal

6. Obviously "trying" and "getting pregnant" are not synonymous. Perhaps a woman listening has decided they won't really "try" but they've stopped preventing, or maybe she and her husband are actively trying but the waiting is starting to get to her, what encouragement would you offer to the woman longing to be pregnant again for whom it is just not happening? Perhaps someone is listening who hasn't started trying again yet but is fearful of infertility. What would you say to her?

Questions for every guest:

What's one way God has used your experience of miscarriage to work in your heart and life?

If you could encourage a woman to meditate on or memorize any verse or short set of verses in this season, what would it be and why?

Noteworthy Quotes:

"We can make our plans, but ultimately it is God who brings life. It is God who is sovereign over every single little detail of our lives."

"A lot of times we can go to our planning stages without first praying, without first coming to God in humble submission to him asking him to fulfill in us the desires that he has, to give us his desires that are according to his kingdom and his will. So first, prayer."

"Seek wisdom. What is going on in our lives right now? How is our marriage? What has God called us to do?"

"What's really beautiful is the accounts in scripture that we have. Think about the story of Sarah who longed for a child, and yet we know that she was so past childbearing, and we see God's greater plan in that child, to bring the coming Messiah, to show the people that our God is greater, that he can work beyond any human means. So, we look back to scripture and we see these examples that God gave us to trust him with his timing. And you think of Hannah too… God heard her cry, and it says "in God's appointed time." And we also see in God's appointed time that he sent his Son. So we trust God with his timing. We surrender and submit to him who has always been faithful to his people."

"Our God is a God of trust and a God of peace. After losing a baby I quickly realized how easy it is for a spirit of fear to take over and for the "what if" questions to start going on repeat… You can bring those fears before God."

"God, in the form of Jesus, he suffered on the cross. He knows what it's like to suffer."

"Seek counsel. Seek out a christian counselor or your pastor or wisdom from an older woman at church. Seek wise counsel. Don't try to heal and to go through this all on your own. That's why we have the body of Christ, the church, to receive comfort and counsel from...seek counsel for that spiritual and emotional healing."

"Come to God. I'm saying this over and over again because a lot of times this is not our first response, to go to the Lord in suffering, in confusion, in trial. We go to other people, we go to google. we go to books, to doctors… and there's wisdom in seeking out that counsel, but first, press into the Lord."

"Anything that I look to for hope and healing in this life other than Christ is ultimately going to be short. It won't fulfill that desire. That pain can only be healed at the cross."

"When we think that God should remove the pain, we can also go back to Christ who submitted to God in that pain, and God brought ultimate healing and redemption through that."

"I think one of the deepest most important theologies that we should seek to learn and develop as a Christian is a theology of Suffering. God has never said that as a Christian you will never suffer. Never has he said that. And somehow we believe that. But we see in scripture that suffering draws us into a deeper relationship with Christ."

"We have to know who God is. We have to remember that hope we have in Christ. And that we have a helper in the Holy Spirit."

"Psalm 27:14 is so important for us to remember in seasons of waiting because it tells us how to wait, and what we wait for. It says, 'Wait for the Lord. Be strong and let your heart take courage. Wait for the Lord.' And in this we see this active waiting. It's not just saying, oh, go sit and don't do anything. [It's] this active waiting and pressing in and seeking the Lord, taking courage and confidence that his word is true."

"His word is our hope, it is our promise and our peace, and we wait for him. It's so easy to get that backwards and think "I'm just waiting for a baby, I'm just waiting for this pregnancy, and then everything will be okay." We have to be able to recognize those thoughts and bring them captive and fuel those thoughts with the truth of God's word." (ending at 29:45)

"Don't allow this season of waiting to steal the joy that you could have in your marriage. The opportunity to love your husband and to glorify God right where you are by serving others, by seeking him in the Word. What consumes your mind is what's going to drive your feelings and drive your actions, and so be consumed with Christ. Be consumed with his love. Be consumed with awe of who God is in the world and in creations. Let that be the guide that propels you in this season of waiting."

"One way [God has used miscarriage in my life] is to show me that he is still good when life is hard. He is still good when the floor beneath my feet seems to start quaking or my plans start crumbling, that he is still a firm foundation I can cling to and I can find shelter and hope in."

Scripture References:

Revelation 21

Proverbs 19:21

Romans 8:14-15

2 Timothy 4:7

Luke 22:42

Psalm 27:14

Psalm 13

Resources Mentioned:

The Reason for God by Tim Keller

Intro/ Outro Music:

My Soul Will Wait (Psalm 62) [feat. Stacy Lantz], Hilton Head Presbyterian Church

"Held" Book Purchasing Info:

purchasing link (discount code: heldpodcast10 )

(or order from amazon)

In this episode of the Held Podcast, I chatted with Kristen Wetherell about making the decision to share or not to share about your miscarraige, or how publicly to share if you choose to do so. Kristen and I made really different choices in this area. We talked about everything from reasons people choose not to share, to the benefits of sharing with a choice few or more publicly, to what to do if someone finds out about your loss later and feels offended you didn't share with them. Her biblical encouragement regarding decision making and conscience is a freeing gift. I hope you'll find it helpful as you consider whether or not to (or how privately or publicly to) talk about your own pregnancy loss.

About Kristen Wetherell:

Kristen Wetherell is a wife, mother, and writer. She is the author of Fight Your Fears and the co-author of the award-winning book Hope When It Hurts. Kristen lives in Chicagoland with her husband, Brad, who is a pastor. They have two children.

Questions in this Episode:

Would you start off by just telling us a bit about your own experience with miscarriage?

Tell us a little about you and Brad's personal decision regarding sharing (or not sharing) about your miscarriage?

What are some other reasons that you imagine might cause a woman to want to keep her miscarriage private? What are some of the cons of this?

What are some reasons or benefits to sharing about your loss with a few friends/ family members…. or even more publicly?

Can you walk us through a scenario where your miscarriage comes up in conversation and a friend is offended or hurt that you didn't share about this with them. What might be a wise and loving way to respond?

How can we discern if our reason for sharing or not sharing is sinful or if it is good/wise? (obviously this is a tricky question) How should we go about making that decision?

Questions for every guest:

What's one way God has used your experience of miscarriage to work in your heart and life?

If you could encourage a woman to meditate on or memorize any verse or short set of verses in this season, what would it be and why?

Noteworthy Quotes:

"Before I miscarried we made the decision to share about the pregnancy knowing that if anything were to happen, these were the people we would want to also weep with us if we lost the baby. We shared basically with our family and our extended family and our closest friends. These were people we knew we wanted to pray for us, and we knew we could entrust this to, and also who we knew would cry with us and walk alongside us well should anything happen. So when I miscarried we felt very surrounded by people who love us and truly care for us."

"God's spirit has given us the gift of conscience and guides us… and it just didn't sit well with us personally to share more publicly, say on social media or to have our parents sharing. It was a level of comfort or discomfort."

"Primarily, it feels so private because this life and then this loss has taken place in an unseen place. I could see a woman deciding not to say anything because it feels unseen. I think people may not share because it's just too painful. Every time we share,... we're revisiting and reentering the pain, and I think that women may not want to magnify it in that sense. Another reason I thought of is broken trust. I think if we've had negative experiences of sharing hard things with people and facing improper responses or insensitive responses, that could be with family or friends, it could be with the church [but] if we've been hurt by people I think we'll be less likely to share in the future. And then finally, I thought about shame. Whether we don't want to rehearse it again or we're afraid that people will judge us or think that we did something to cause it, I think that shame is a reason people don't share."

"In the realm of faith, I think we miss opportunities to proclaim our hope to those who don't believe. Where as if you have close friends who are unbelievers or if you decide to share this more publicly, I think we're able to display 1 Thessalonians 4:13 that we grieve as people with hope and we can display that to those who don't have hope and perhaps the Lord might even use that to draw them to himself."

"I think it's so fortifying to see brothers and sisters in Christ walking through intense suffering with faith in Christ."

"We want to be receiving the care of our friends and the care of the body of Christ whether it's through the words that people speak over us or the service that we receive when we're in a place of very obvious need and weakness."

"We're pretty burdened when we're hurting. And it's such a blessing to others to be able to bear our burdens and it allows them to serve us in that way (Gal 6:2) and it allows us I think a measure of healing."

"Having believing sisters in Christ encourage me to trust the character of God was a healing balm to my soul. It's so hard, because frankly, you become a little suspicious in times of suffering."

"Even Paul [in 1 Corinthians 1] felt utterly burdened beyond his strength, and so many women who go through a miscarraige feel that way, physically, spiritually, and I was so struck by this because he talks about the body of christ helping him by prayer and pointing that out as a particular ministry and so i think a benefit to sharing, whether with close friends or more publicly is that ministry of prayer. 'Please pray for us because this is the way that the Lord will uphold us if through your prayers.'" (21:56)

"When we share we open ourselves up to be comforted by those who have gone through miscarriage specifically [or] suffering in general, but I think we also love people because we let them in so that they know whats going on and can respond accordingly. And again, that's not meaning that you have to share [specifically], I think you can tell people, "We're going through a hard time, please pray for us." But there's a specific way to love people here in that you let them in and you allow them to minister to you in such a way that meets your specific need."

"If I waited to make any decision until my heart and my motives were perfectly pure I would never do anything… I don't think our motivations are ever sinless… but I do think we can act in faith, meaning that we can act in a level of comfort that we are being faithful to the Lord." (29:22)

"So whether you're sharing with close friends who know the Lord or with the world from a more public platform, it seems as though Paul is saying " I want my conscience to testify to what I'm doing. I want to move forward feeling really comfortable in my decision." And so I think that kind of has to be our motivator. We should absolutely pray for God's help, "Help me to know, should I share this more publicly? Less publicly? And help me to do whatever I choose to do with, as Paul says, with godly sincerity." But we can rest knowing that even though our decision will somehow in some degree be laced with sin, God's grace covers all of our wrong motives and he can use it."

Scripture References:

Romans 12:15

2 Corinthians 1

1 Thessalonians 4:13

1 Peter 1

Proverbs 27:6

Galatians 6:2

Psalm 31:14-15

Job 1:21

Intro/ Outro Music:

My Soul Will Wait (Psalm 62) [feat. Stacy Lantz], Hilton Head Presbyterian Church

"Held" Book Purchasing Info:

purchasing link (discount code: heldpodcast10 )

(or order from amazon)

In this episode of the Held Podcast, I chatted with Jessalyn Hutto about the way we relate to one another based on how long we carried the babies that we lost. Drawing from her own experience with both an early and a later gestational loss, Jessalyn explored the differences and similarities between those two experiences and the numerous other factors that impact the way we grieve. We talked about everything from the temptation to dismiss grief over earlier losses to the importance of not making the grief of others about our own. I hope you walk away from this episode with more insight into how to best minister to women who are suffering, drawing from the comfort you've received in your own suffering. Her reflection on the work of Christ and the hope of heaven were an encouragement to me, and I pray it will be to you as well.

About Jessalyn Hutto:

Jessalyn Hutto is the wife of a pastor, a mother to four children, and the author of the book, Inheritance of Tears: Trusting the Lord of Life When Death Visits the Womb. She lives near Houston, Texas where she serves as the women's ministry director at King's Church. You can find her occasionally blogging at JHutto.com.

Questions in this Episode:

1. Would you start off by just telling us a bit about your own experience with miscarriage?

1. Our episode today is called "degrees of grief." Since you have experienced both, I wanted to have you on to talk about the experience of loss at various stages of pregnancy, as well as how we relate to one another based on how long we carried the babies we lost. Would you mind sharing a bit about how your later loss impacted your view of your earlier loss? What was similar about the experience? What was different? I would love for you to help us think through this both emotionally and physically.

1. After sharing that they lost a life in the womb, women are often asked "How far along were you?" This question can arise just from a desire to give a woman space to process and tell her story, or to seek to understand, but it can also be used to "measure" or "compare" grief. I'd love to hear your opinion here, would you say there are "degrees of grief?" What factors make the experience of miscarriage different than say a "stillbirth."

1. In my experience, many women who have endured later losses wrestle with having grace/ understanding for women grieving early losses. Did you face this temptation in your grief? What counsel would you offer someone in this situation?

1. I've also witnessed those who endure early losses be dismissive of their own grief in light of the later gestational losses of others (or too quick to relate in a way that actually may feel dismissive of a later loss). What counsel would you offer a woman in this situation?

• Questions for every guest:
• What's one way God has used your experience of miscarriage to work in your heart and life?
• If you could encourage a woman to meditate on or memorize any verse or short set of verses in this season, what would it be and why?

Noteworthy Quotes:

"There are no many factors that go into a woman's grief. Every woman is so unique, and every miscarriage is so unique, that it's hard to just put into categories based on "early" or "later" miscarriages."

(9:49) "I think that with early miscarriages, the hardest part about them is what I call the invisibility factor. You don't have a baby bump yet, so people don't humanize your baby the same way they would if you did. And in reality, you may not have even told anyone that you're pregnant yet. So it's really hard for people to jump into your grief with you. In many ways the baby isn't "real" to anyone else besides you,... and so when you lose that baby, its just really hard because you feel really alone…" (10:35)

"...There's also the way that it feels like your baby just disappeared like a mist. You have very little to hold onto when your baby dies early on. You may have been given a little fuzzy ultrasound picture of an oblong shape that you will treasure for the rest of your life, but that ultrasound picture doesn't compare in any way to the depth of love or hope that you had for that child—of the future that you envisioned for them and for your family."

"On the other hand, with a late term miscarriage, the unique suffering that you face in that situation is that it's more visible both in your heart an physically. You've had more time to hope, to love, to plan. You've felt the baby moving inside of you. The baby is just more real to the people around you. And you might have even accumulated stuff for the baby. Physical stuff that will serve as terribly painful reminders of your loss for weeks and months to come. And if you have other children, they will be affected by that loss… so you will have to guide them through the grief just as you're figuring it out yourself… You have so many decisions to make… what to do with the body of your baby"

WAV QUOTE (17:00) "I would definitely say there are degrees of grief, but they're not always linear or logical. There are so many variables. How far along you are in your pregnancy may increase your grief, but it also might not. Things like how long you've been trying to get pregnant play a factor, how many times you've miscarried… whether or not you have been blessed with other children makes a huge difference, either before or after your miscarriage. Things like whether or not your husband is able to enter into your grief. I've talked to so many wives for whom that is one of the hardest things in their miscarriage…"

"I don't think that it is fair for us to look at the gestational age of a miscarried child and assume that someone who has miscarried earlier on experiences less grief."

"I think it's important for us as women when we miscarry or have a tragedy like that befall us, to give people the benefit of the doubt and to not assume the worst, because it's really easy to assume the worst when you are hurting and grieving. And, so just as we would hope that they would be as sensitive to us as possible, I think we have to guard against judging their feeble attempts to be able to enter into our pain."

(20:00) "I do think that there's a way in which after the 12 week marker you tend to forget how frail that life within you is and you start to assume that everything is going to go fine. I think from week 1-12 we know the risk, we know that it is very possible that baby could go through a miscarriage. But after 12 weeks I think that we think that we've got it made, and so in some sense I think that it can come as such a shock that it hits you differently than an early miscarriage does, but I would never say that it is more painful than an early miscarriage because I have had many friends that have miscarried earlier than either of my miscarriages and for whatever reason it hit them just differently than it hit me and it was more painful for them than it was for me. It's a very personal loss and so we have to be very careful not to make assumptions."

WAV QUOTE (22:04) "As long as we have our theology right on this matter, it will help us to be more careful in how we think about other people's losses. I mean according to Psalm 139, every human being is uniquely fashioned by the hand of the Lord. So from the moment of a baby's conception, that baby is a baby— a human being made in the image of God, by God. So it doesn't matter how long that baby has been developing within the womb of the mother, his or her death is tragic."

"We don't do this outside of the womb. If you've lost a child at 17 "Oh they cant understand real grief, they don't know what it's like to lose a child, but we do that with our babies inside the womb because we can't see them the same way. But it should be just as unthinkable. Recognizing the humanity of that baby from the get go can really help guard us from dismissing another woman's grief… It's our duty to honor her grief because it honors that baby and it honors the work that the Lord did in her womb."

"How horrible that there would be a culture in which we would feel shame for feeling grief over a human life, over our own children. It is good and right to feel that grief over a loss of human life no matter how early we lose them."

"I think we just need to be careful that we don't make other people's suffering about us and our suffering. I think that as long as we go into ministering to other people, and it works both ways… as long as we go into the situation seeking to enter into that person's grief, that we will be guarded from a lot of misunderstandings."

"No matter what our past experience has been, when we're ministering to a woman who miscarries the focus should be on her and her baby. And we should never assume that our experience is the same as hers. Our experience uniquely fits us to be able to enter into her grief in a way that other people will not be able to, but we should never assume that it's all coming to her the way that it came to us or that her situation was the same as ours or that she feels the same level or grief or that we feels more or less than her… we have to be careful to remember that every person is unique and every situation that the Lord bring us through is unique.""I would even say its good to put out a disclaimer at some point while you're talking to her and ministering to her just reminding her that you know that her baby is different than your baby, that her miscarriage is different than yours and that you dont understand completely how she's feeling but you want to be there in any way that you can be and you want to serve her however you can."

"Count others more significant than yourself. Count other's grief more important than your own."

"My miscarriages were really the first time that I experienced the brokenness of this world in such a visceral way and the grief that I went through really helped me have a greater appreciation for our future home with the Lord."

"Scripture References:

Psalm 39

Philippians 2:3

Revelation 21:1-7

Intro/ Outro Music:

My Soul Will Wait (Psalm 62) [feat. Stacy Lantz], Hilton Head Presbyterian Church

"Held" Book Purchasing Info:

purchasing link (discount code: heldpodcast10 )

(or order from amazon)

In this episode, I chatted with Trillia Newbell about how we can respond biblically to hurtful comments in the wake of loss (both inwardly and outwardly). We talked about why well intended comments are often so painful, and talked about responses like assuming the best, walking away, and even offering a strong rebuke to uphold God's truth and protect the next woman. Trillia shared two personal examples of hurtful comments she received and how she responded and we even walked through how to handle to a few specific common responses to miscarriage. I pray that you would walk away from listening to this episode feeling seen by God and more equipped for your next awkward or painful encounter.

About Trillia Newbell:

Trillia Newbell is the author of several books including A Great Cloud of Witnesses, Sacred Endurance, If God Is For Us, Fear and Faith, and the children's book, God's Very Good Idea. When she isn't writing, she's encouraging and supporting other writers as an Acquisitions Editor at Moody Publishers. Trillia is married to her best friend, Thern, they reside with their two children near Nashville, TN. You can find her at trillianewbell.com and follow her on twitter at @trillianewbell.

Questions in this Episode:

Would you start off by just telling us a bit about your own experience with miscarriage?

I'm curious to know, why do you think so many of the responses people offer to women walking through the pain of pregnancy loss land in such a raw place? Why are so many of these attempts to be helpful actually so unhelpful?

How does the truth of the gospel and God's word bring comfort when we are met with a lack of sensitivity or understanding from others?

How should the truth of the gospel and God's word inform the way we respond to hurtful or unhelpful responses from others?

How can we practically prepare for these comments/ interactions in a way that both guards our hearts and helps us not to sin against our neighbors in our anger and pain?

Let's walk through some common comments and maybe you can help us think through how we might respond.

"I don't understand why you're making such a big deal out of this."

"At least you weren't very far along."

"At least you know you can get pregnant."

"Better it didn't survive. This is just your body's way of getting rid of a defective baby."

Questions for every guest:

What's one way God has used your experience of miscarriage to work in your heart and life?

If you could encourage a woman to meditate on or memorize any verse or short set of verses in this season, what would it be and why?

Scripture References:

Romans 8: 31- the end

The Psalms

Hebrews 4:16

Psalm 34:18

Intro/ Outro Music:

My Soul Will Wait (Psalm 62) [feat. Stacy Lantz], Hilton Head Presbyterian Church

"Held" Book Purchasing Info:

purchasing link (discount code: heldpodcast10 )

(or order from amazon)

In this episode, I chatted with my friend Lauren Washer about the complicated interaction between grief, guilt and gratitude. Lauren is well acquainted with grief of many kinds shared with candor about her grief over her miscarriages, the tragic unsolved murder of her brother, and a difficult diagnosis for one of her children at birth. We talked about the temptation to feel guilt over our grief because it feels like ingratitude and how to biblically navigate living in this tension between weeping and rejoicing, lament and thanksgiving, gladness and grief. I pray that this episode will be an encouragement to you as you navigate this tension in the wake of your own loss.

About Lauren Washer:

Lauren is a wife, mom of six, Bible teacher, and writer who lives in Norfolk, Virginia. She enjoys helping women apply the truth of God's Word to every moment, so they will grow to know and love Jesus more. You can find more of her writing and connect with her on Instagram and her blog.

Questions in this Episode:

Would you start off by just telling us a bit about your own experience with miscarriage?

Let's just start with some of the griefs that you have known and how you have been tempted to feel guilty for feeling sad?

Why else do you think someone who is grieving a miscarriage might feel guilt over feeling sad or the magnitude of their sorrow? I'm curious in particular about how "at least" comments from others can foster that kind of thinking.

What wisdom does God's word offer us in this place, when we are tempted to think of grief as being a sinful lack of gratitude?

So we have established that we should fight the temptation to suppress our grief because it feels "ungrateful." But what role, if any, should gratitude play in our grief? Is it something we should still seek to cultivate even while we are lamenting?

What has it looked like for you to let joy and sorrow coexist as you walked through your miscarriages? In the loss of your brother? In tough diagnoses for your children?

Practically speaking, what are some things we can do that will help us to hold grief and gratitude, weeping and rejoicing in tension?

Questions for every guest:

What's one way God has used your experience of miscarriage to work in your heart and life?

If you could encourage a woman to meditate on or memorize any verse or short set of verses in this season, what would it be and why?

Scripture References:

Romans 8

Ecclesiastes 3:1-3

John 11

Philippians 4:11-12

1 Peter 1:3-7

Psalm 18

2 Corinthians 4:7-18

Intro/ Outro Music:

My Soul Will Wait (Psalm 62) [feat. Stacy Lantz], Hilton Head Presbyterian Church

"Held" Book Purchasing Info:

purchasing link (discount code: heldpodcast10 )

In this episode, I chatted with licensed counselor Jessica McDaniel about the interplay between body, mind, and emotions when healing from pregnancy loss. We talked about everything from how the experience of our body impacts our grief, to the way that the body of Jesus displayed his grief, to how to know if you should seek professional help to facilitate healthy healing. I pray that this episode will be an encouragement to you as you consider your own experience of loss and journey through grief, remembering that God knows your frame and is full of compassion.

About Jessica McDaniel:

Jessica is a licensed professional counselor and has been working with clients from a biblically informed perspective for the past decade. She and her husband Ryan have been married since 2006 and have three daughters, the youngest being identical twins. They also went through the devastating loss of their 2nd baby during early-term miscarriage. Jessica enjoys teaching, leading seminars and loves listening to podcasts any chance she can get! In her free time she enjoys volleyball, bike riding with the family and taking trips to the Texas coast. She deeply believes that people's lives are changed and transformed through the power of the gospel of Jesus Christ and knowing him more.

Questions in this Episode:

Can you start off just by telling us a bit about your experience with miscarriage, both professionally and personally?

Can you paint a picture for us of what is going on for a woman physiologically in the time that follows the loss of life in the womb?

Can you help us understand how what we experience physically during and after miscarriage affects how we grieve and heal? Why is it important for us to think about this?

I hear a lot of women express shame or frustration over the magnitude or duration of their grief over the loss of life in their womb. As if there is a barometer for this type of grief. I'd love for you to speak to that a bit.

Given the effect of our bodies on our minds and experience, how can we know if we should seek outside help to facilitate healing?

Questions for every guest:

What's one way God has used your experience of miscarriage to work in your heart and life?

If you could encourage a woman to meditate on or memorize any verse or short set of verses in this season, what would it be and why?

Scripture References:

Luke 22

Lamentations 3

Psalm 90:14

In this introductory 10 minute episode, Abbey Wedgeworth introduces herself, briefly shares her own experience with pregnancy loss, chats a bit about the Held book, and tells you what you can expect to find within these episodes.

To pre-order a discounted copy of "Held: 31 Biblical Reflections on God's Comfort and Care in the Sorrow of Miscarriage," visit https://www.thegoodbook.com/held and use the code heldpodcast10 at checkout.