We're on the search for the 'perfect red' with a pigment and dye that was so prized that it inspired international espionage and piracy, carried the death penalty if exported without a license, and built empires. But today you might find it in your strawberry yoghurt.  

This is the story of how bugs turned the world red with historian and writer Amy Butler Greenfield and National Gallery host Beks Leary. 

Amy is the granddaughter and great-granddaughter of dyers, and her award-winning history of cochineal, 'A Perfect Red', has been published in eight languages. A popular speaker on radio and television programs, Amy was born in Philadelphia, studied history at Oxford, and now lives with her family in Oxfordshire. 

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Watch the full episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/Z2jEf3QH_ho

You can email us with any questions via [email protected]

Find out more about the podcast on our website: www.nationalgallery.org.uk/podcast

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Paintings mentioned: 

Workshop of Albrecht Dürer with Hans Baldung Grien, ‘The Virgin and Child ('The Madonna with the Iris')’, about 1500-10. The National Gallery, London https://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/paintings/workshop-of-albrecht-durer-with-hans-baldung-grien-the-virgin-and-child-the-madonna-with-the-iris 

Titian, ‘The Holy Family with a Shepherd’, about 1510. The National Gallery, London https://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/paintings/titian-the-holy-family-with-a-shepherd 

Titian, 'Diana and Callisto’, 1556-9. The National Gallery, London https://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/paintings/titian-diana-and-callisto  

Further reading:

Amy Butler Greenfield, ‘A Perfect Red: Empire, Espionage, and the Quest for the Color of Desire’, 2005 

For more information on ‘The Virgin and Child ('The Madonna with the Iris')’ by Workshop of Albrecht Dürer with Hans Baldung Grien, please see the following volumes of the National Gallery’s Technical Bulletin:  

https://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/research/research-resources/technical-bulletin/technical-bulletin-volume-21  

https://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/research/research-resources/technical-bulletin/the-technology-of-red-lake-pigment-manufacture-study-of-the-dyestuff-substrate  

For more information on ‘Titian’s painting techniques before 1540’ see the National Gallery’s Technical Bulletin Volume 34, 2013: http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/technical-bulletin/vol-34-essay-1-2013  

Find out more about the work of artist Elena Osterwalder: https://elenaosterwalder-atelier.com/

Find out more about artist Bosco Sodi: https://www.kasmingallery.com/artists/96-bosco-sodi/

Find out more about red lake pigments in paintings from the National Gallery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B8u2f799KM&list=PLvb2y26xK6Y4V3T1xHphum23El4b93YzC&index=10 

To learn more about the science of colour visit our National Gallery YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvb2y26xK6Y4V3T1xHphum23El4b93YzC 

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Episode credits: 

Guest: Amy Butler Greenfield

Host and executive producer: Beks Leary 

Producer: Harry Rosehill 

Researcher: Hannah Rogers 

Technicians: Ian Warren, Tom Gulliver and Timothy Carpenter 

Editors: Jeanne Kenyon, Alessandro Sorenti and Paul Frankl

Theme music: Theo Elwell