Staff writer Mike Giglio has been reporting on ISIS since before Americans knew what to call it. He documents his five years in the region for a new book, Shatter the Nations: ISIS and the War for the Caliphate.

He joins Isaac Dovere to discuss the abrupt changes happening in Syria. How did a phone call upend American policy towards its Kurdish allies? What’s happening on the ground now? And where will this new cycle of violence lead?

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices