Sam and Sara Kazmer brought great craft beer to a market they felt was underserved - Atlanta, Georgia when they flipped on the lights at Elsewhere Brewing in 2020. 

They wanted to produce award-winning beer in a unique, community-event driven taproom. They wanted to create space, community and memories for themselves and every customer that shared in their dream. And, as we’ll hear in the 4th segment, they were successful. 

The whole project was an amalgamation of the experiences they had researching craft beer while traveling the world. Drinking, tasting, connecting and experiencing beer when it’s more than beer in other countries and continents. 

In the 3rd segment we’re joined by 6 month-old Sofie as she woke up from her nap. And that’s about the time we really get into the struggles they faced at elsewhere Brewing. 

As their fan starts to really fill up with shit, Sam and Sara knew that they needed to throw a Hail Mary pass quickly. So in the Spring of 2024 they hired a new ops manager, built a team and a strategy around her and did everything they could to rally the ATL community around the beer and the vision of Elsewhere Brewing. They set a July deadline for profitability and as you may have guessed, they are a guest on this podcast because it didn’t work. 

We learn a couple of handfuls of lessons in this episode, including whether you can change the culture of your community/city/region around how, why and how often they enjoy craft beer as part of a healthy lifestyle. To do or do not to do in regards to having a restaurant in your brewery. The management of multiple tasting rooms. And why you can’t find someone to do the owner’s job for 20K/year. 

This was a moving episode and a special one for me. So open up your hearts and ears and maybe you’ll learn something about How NOT To Start A Damn Brewery. 

You can reach the Kazmers at

[email protected]

[email protected]

Kiernan May is a cool guy. 

He transitioned from a corporate career to open a brewery in New York with big dreams and a bigger bag of passion. 

His brewery was built on Kiernan’s analytic and logical understanding of the world that surrounded him. He put the pieces and plans together in a way that was structured and strategic. He grew sensibly, understanding his limitations and how to operate within them. He leveraged his contact brewing model and the flexibility that it gave him to utilize other sales channels and distribution options. 

And he did it before the last huge swell in craft breweries. Opening in 2004 should have (and to an extent it did) given him an advantage compared to the brewery business landscape of 2025. But, as you’ll hear, even operating in a climate of just over 1000 breweries didn’t protect his business from escaping a fate fans of this show know happens all too often these days. 

So listen in to the story of Kiernan May and the Landmark Brewery’s 8-year run and you might just learn How NOT To Start A Damn Brewery. 

5th Anniversary Announcement

You’re about to hear the story of Matt Swan and the late Tumbledown Brewery from Farmington, Maine. 

Opened in 2014 and closed late 2025, Matt’s experience is varied and truly interesting. 

His is the first brewery we’ve talked to from Maine and the only one with a red ale as it’s flagship. We cover a lot of ground from distribution, burnout, capitalization and contract brewing.

One of my favorite parts of this story is that he opened as the only brewery around for miles and the only brewery in Farmington. But a farmhouse taphouse/restaurant opened right before Covid and put the screws to his business. 

How are people still telling me there’s always room for one more brewery?

Anyways, Matt is a truly cool guy that was open, honest and willing to share everything he learned in 11 years. He and I both hope it helps you to understand a little better, How NOT To Start A Damn Brewery. 

Tumbledown Website

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Tanglefoot made some solid lagers in an unlikely place. Temple, TX is a town of about 90K people about an hour to Austin. A huge segment of that population has Czech blood in their veins and a thirst for beer from the Old Country. 

But as Andy Martinec found out the hard way, that didn’t necessarily mean they would support a local business making great examples of Czech lagers. You’re about to hear his story of struggling to make beer into a business for a few years before having to announce a final service day in June, 2024. 

Tanglefoot was one of my favorite lagers here in TX so this is the interview I never wanted to do. But I caught up with Andy in the brewery a few weeks after closing and he was gracious enough to share his story with all of us. And I know it will help you to understand a little more about HOW NOT TO START A DAMN BREWERY. 

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Pono Brewing of Portland Oregon was conceived as a lifestyle as much if not more than a beer brand. The beers were lively, fun, inventive and everything a craft brewery should be. 

Larry Clouser and his partners grew from humble beginnings as a contract brewery to statewide distribution to opening a brewpub/restaurant before finally closing the doors in 2023. 

Larry’s story covers contract brewing in a market that wasn’t sure how it felt about it. And partners that struggled to decide how they felt about it. We’ll touch on partnerships in general and the financial pitfalls in particular. Hell, we’ll even get on Kool-aid beers before we’re done talking today. 

When Pono Brewing finally poured it’s last beer, Larry faced head-on the same anxiety and depression many of of did. 

But with the help of friends and family, he overcame the hardships, rose back up and is now on the path to creating a less stressful life for his family. And his openness and honesty will hopefully help you consider the role of your family on your current or future dream of owning a craft brewery. 

Thanks to Larry’s priceless lessons and advice all of us will have a better understanding of How NOT To Start A Damn Brewery.

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Blue Cat Brewpub was an Illinois icon. One of the state’s first brewpubs, they made award-winning beer for 23 years. 

After the owners sold and the brewery was rebranded unsuccessfully, the new owners were looking for a way to save the dream.

That’s where Charlie Cole came marching into the picture. 

After working at most of the Quad-city’s breweries, hosting a beer-centric radio show and snagging more brewing education than I think anyone on this show has, Charlie decided to parter up with the new owners. 

The goal? Recreate the magic of Blue Cat and parlay that success into a distribution strategy to build the brand beyond anything it had ever achieved in it’s golden years. 

As I’m sure you’ve guessed, that isn’t what happened and the new Blue Cat shuttered in 2023 after calamity ended in catastrophe. 

Listen in and learn How NOT To Start A Damn Brewery with Charlie Cole and the Blue Cat Brewing Company. 

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And now for something a little different. 

I came across an article in the San Francisco Chronicle, thanks to my sister-in-law, that cited the struggles of the California wine industry. I found the similarities to the struggles that the people behind their beer businesses face to be truly compelling and undeniably relevant. 

So I reached out to Megan Bell from Margins Wine because her quotes in the article were honest in ways I see few entrepreneurs able or willing to be. 

The path of her winery and the legacy she’s built winds through struggle, success, pivots and uncertainty. Her experience educates us on nationwide distribution, the role of DTC sales, club memberships and own-premise sales over the bar. 

I was able to grab a few bottles of her wine and found her approach to wine and business to be eerily similar to what my wife and mine was with our brewery. And what many people I talk to either tried before, are trying today or are hoping to try one day in their business. 

You have my word that the story of Megan Bell and her story of Margins Wine will not only help you to be a better Bev/alc business owner but will teach you How NOT To Start A Damn Brewery. 

Margins Wine Website

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In the span of a decade, Michigan saw a major craft beer boom, going from around 100 craft breweries to upwards of 400. 

In the middle of that marketplace Kevin DeGrood opened Michigan’s North Center Brewing way back in 2015. He watched a fairly virgin market become deflowered with nearly 30 breweries just during the time he was finalizing his business plan. 

His start up was methodical, specific and, by many accounts, the right way to do it. Unfortunately through a mix of employment issues, changing customer tastes and a near-impossible distribution market, his brewery finally closed a few months ago on St Patty’s Day. 

Kevin’s story highlights how the right brewery can still end up on the wrong end of a P&L. He’s smart, passionate and, thankfully, open to sharing his story so that we can all learn from him How NOT To Start A Damn Brewery. 

The focus of this show has always been to tell the stories of beer operations that one day turned off the lights for the last time. 

I’ve chosen to be very selective when considering interviewing breweries that are still stirring their mashes. To date, I’ve only shared 5. There are a lot of reasons why but based on listener feedback, I’ve decided to look for opportunities to do it where it makes sense to the message of the podcast. 

So I am excited, pleased and even a little proud to share the story of Deschutes Brewery with you in this episode. 

Deschutes is one of those rare breweries that you can all but guarantee every other mouth next to you at the craft beer bar has tasted at some point in their craft beer journey. And, kinda miraculously, Deschutes still makes beer that appeals to both the young tongue and the seasoned craft beer fan. 

Of course, over a 36-year career as a pioneer in craft beer Gary has struggled and failed on his way to becoming number 12 on the Brewer’s Association’s Top 50 Breweries list. 

There was so much I didn’t know about one of America’s oldest craft breweries. And sitting down with Gary was a true pleasure - after which I walked away better able to tell you How NOT To Start A Damn Brewery. 

And now, here’s Gary Fish and the story of Deschutes Brewery in Bend (and Portland) Oregon. 

⁠⁠⁠Deschutes Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Deschutes Facebook⁠⁠⁠

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A few seasons back I realized that to truly tell the story of the business of craft beer, we needed input from other countries. So I reached out to Canadian, Australian, Norwegian, UK and South African breweries. Some of those interviews have already been released. 

But the very first international guest I tried to get was Nick Law. 

He not only had a beer brand but he’d started a podcast and a consulting company so I knew he brought a perspective we needed to hear from. And he and his businesses are in the UK. 

Of course, with all that going on, Nick was quite busy. So he and I played email and phone tag for years, which I won when we finally connected at the end of 2023. We finally got to this interview in early 2024. 

Like most of these stories, I go in thinking I know something about the brewery and the guest, only to come out on the other side of two intimate hours blown away with everything I didn’t know. And couldn’t have guessed. 

And with that, Damn Audience, I present you with Nick Law and the story of Emmanuales and Hop Forward. I hope it gives you a little more insight into how NOT To Start A Damn Brewery. In any country. 

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Hopforward Website

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