How To Train Your Dog With Love + Science - Dog Training with Annie Grossman + Anamarie Johnson PhD

Anamarie and I recorded this episode separately because we had different things we wanted to communicate in a format that wasn't really right for conversation.

Me first: What if you're someone who has strong feelings about putting dogs in shock collars and... one of your friends publishes a paper on research she did that involved putting shock collars on dogs?

What if that person is your podcast host?

Hi, I'm Annie, and this is my life.

The day after I publish a book that is essentially a paean to Positive Reinforcement dog training rooted in science and research, a major journal publishes a paper (rooted in science and research!) that says that using a shock collar may be more effective when teaching a dog to stop chasing than reward-based training would be in the same period of time. Anamarie was one of the authors.

Do you hop on the bandwagon and hate on this person?

Do you yell at the angry mob -- which contains many of your colleagues -- to stop hating on her because she is someone you respect and love?

Do you hit your desk on the head several times because you know that 99.9 percent of US dog owners don't care about the studies or the ethics and will never consult with experts but are going to use these things anyway because THEY'RE COMPLETELY LEGAL?

Do you ... buy a shock collar?

Join me as I confirm all my worst fears during a series of phone calls with shock collar retailers.

In the 2nd part of the episode, Anamarie responds to attacks on   the study that has been the source of so much criticism in the Positive Reinforcement dog training community over the last few weeks.

You can read the study here:

More:

⁠GET MY BOOK! Upload a receipt and I'll send you a clicker and a sticker. ⁠

⁠Testing dog shock collars on young humans ⁠Youtube compilation by me (from 2011)

Add link to study 

https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/14/18/2632

Add link to the study about no one using trainers

https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/14/9/1310

Other links? 

How big of a money making market the ecollar industry is:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dog-shock-collar-market-growth-trends-forecast

Meet Anamarie Johnson! She was one of my first hires at School For The Dogs nearly a decade ago. She recently got her PhD, and she'd coming on to join me as a co-host!

Me= Annie Grossman, dog trainer, business owner, human. I started this podcast in 2018. I had to take a little time off, mostly because... I was working on a book! It comes out next week! Learn more at SchoolForTheDogs.com/book.

It's called How To Train Your Dog With Love + Science and much of it stems from conversations that started on this podcast.

In this episode, we talked about some of the crazy drama that's been going on, most of it having to do with positive-reinforcement pros and those trainers are positive-reinforcement adjacent going at each other online. Characters include Michael Shikashio, Zak George, Ivan Balabanov, Behavior Vets, Eileen Anderson, and Jo-Rosie Haffenden, among others.

Anamarie and I come to the conclusion that a lot of the pros don't know how to interpret science, and are basically just talking to each other since the majority of dog owners have no idea that dog training has anything to do with science to begin with.

I recently renamed the podcast to match the book's title: How To Train Your Dog With Love + Science.

I think it is fitting for the new format because Anamarie can be the science and I can be... the love? Or something.

Along with the new title came an amazing new theme song, by Sam Swinnerton, who recently KILLED IT on The Tonight Show! See here.

Also: I'm hosting a mini-conference on Sept. 7 at School For The Dogs in NYC (and also online). Registration closes Sept. 4. Learn more at ShoolForTheDogs.com/event.

See you next week!

x

Annie

Annie reads a post from Denise Fenzi's page that sparked some interesting comments on labels in the world of dog training. Some dog trainers are considerate about the use of some punishment in training and others work to avoid it at all costs. And then there are trainers who simply don't know what they're doing at all. Like... Dog Daddy. He calls himself "balanced" but no educated pro trainer would give him that label. Maybe the real problem is that to non-professionals, what this Insta-celeb doing is all they know about dog training.

TOPICS DISCUSSED:
- Frustrations with the dog training industry
- Divide between different training methods
- The problem of most people's lack of understanding of dog body language
- The weirdness of a spectacle-like approach to dog training
- Importance of focusing on the dog's well-being
- Potential for more animal training entertainment that actually shows off the magic of positive reinforcements

KEY TAKEAWAYS:
- Dog training should focus on the well-being and training effectiveness
of dogs rather than creating a spectacle.
- Understanding dog body language is crucial for preventing dog bites
and improving communication with dogs.
- The divide between different training methods should be approached
with open dialogue and growth in mind.
- Strength-based training can be effective in both academic and dog training settings.
- The well-being and safety of dogs and the public should be the
priority in dog training.

REFERENCES:
- Denise Fenzi's Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/denise.fenzi

GIVEAWAY:

This month's giveaway: Dog Listener hat. Enter to win at http://schoolforthedogs.com/pod

Get your own hat https://storeforthedogs.com/products/dog-listner-hat

⁠Dog Daddy, Part 1: The face of modern "bad" dog training⁠

https://spotifyanchor-web.app.link/e/IZ8rDgtkWEb

⁠Dog Daddy, Part 2: Zak George calls out animal abuse masquerading as dog training⁠

https://spotifyanchor-web.app.link/e/pqBs1htkWEb

⁠Annie sees Dog Daddy live. Also: Get to know Erin Whelan (2020 episode rebroadcast)⁠

https://spotifyanchor-web.app.link/e/0jWG1ftkWEb

Today I caught up with Zak George to hear the latest about his public feud with Dog Daddy.

See Dog Daddy's petition against Zak George at Change.org

https://www.change.org/p/stop-zak-george?source_location=search

Dog Daddy, Part 1: The face of modern "bad" dog training

https://spotifyanchor-web.app.link/e/IZ8rDgtkWEb

Dog Daddy, Part 2: Zak George calls out animal abuse masquerading as dog training

https://spotifyanchor-web.app.link/e/pqBs1htkWEb

Annie sees Dog Daddy live. Also: Get to know Erin Whelan (2020 episode rebroadcast)

https://spotifyanchor-web.app.link/e/0jWG1ftkWEb

Annie went to see Dog Daddy live in New Jersey this weekend and reports back about the odd experience of being in a room where what looked to her like animal abuse seemed didn't seem to bother anyone else.

The episode then includes a rebroadcast of a 2020 interview Annie did with School For The Dogs trainer Erin Whelan. Erin was a professional French Horn Player. Then she adopted a beagle mix named Oliver and enrolled him in Puppy Kindergarten at School For The Dogs. Then she did the School For The Dogs Professional Program. Now, she is a trainer and manager at School For The Dogs. She and Annie discuss switching careers, what it means to teach dogs virtually, human body language, and training as a kind of benevolent con game -- not like Dog Daddy's con!

Dog Daddy Part 1 -- all about DD

Dog Daddy Part 2 -- a conversation w/ Zak George

Enter November Giveaway at http://schoolforthedogs.com/pod

Apply to the SFTD Professional course at http://schoolforthedogs.com/pro

Sign up to hear about upcoming sales ate

http://schoolforthedogs.com/twelve

Get a Mendota leash that doesn't say "Tie Me Up Daddy" at http://schoolforthedogs.com/mendota

Zak George, one of the most influential dog trainers of the 21st century, has been using his large virtual platform to bring attention to the problematic methods being used by the Internet-famous dog trainer known as Dog Daddy.

Zak and Annie discuss the origins of this work, his efforts to get his followers to picket Dog Daddy's events, and more.

Annie also talks about why the conversation about whether or not it is advisable to use force in dog training feels especially important right now.

Find Zak George on Instagram or Youtube:

http://instagram.com/zakgeorge

http://youtube.com/zakgeorge

November giveaway: Enter to win a Hot Dog Trainer mug at http://schoolforthedogs.com/pod

Listen to previous episodes about Dog Daddy:

The SFTD origin story in "How We Got By" (Plus: Enter to win a "Hot Dog Trainer" Mug)

https://rebrand.ly/dpmdhwn

Dog Daddy, Part 1: The face of modern "bad" dog training

https://rebrand.ly/ulbq7zi

Karen Pryor's daughter Gale's article about her mother's dementia

My scientist mother has recorded how dementia affects her brain

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/10/11/magazine/her-dementia-in-her-words/

Annie is on Instagram at @annie.grossman

Like this podcast? Subscribe! Rate! Woof!

Annie reads from How We Got By, a new book by Shaina Feinberg & Julia Rothman which includes a chapter about how School For The Dogs got started. She also gives an update on the bizarre/sad Dog Daddy world tour, and shares how excited she got when she first read about a man being called "the hot dog trainer." Who was the handsome fella?

November giveaway: Enter to win a "Hot Dog Trainer" mug this month at http://schoolforthedogs.com/pod

Apply to the SFTD Professional Course through Nov. 30th. http://schoolforthedogs.com/pro

Get How We Got By on Amazon: https://rebrand.ly/hwgb

Hot Dog Train

Instagram:

@annie.grossman

@schoolforthedogs

Annie talks about why she is generally against costumes for dogs and suggests some alternatives to dressing up your dog on Halloween. She also discusses some feedback she got about last week’s episode, which featured an interview with the lawyer representing the woman who was mauled by Cesar Millan’s dog. Lastly, she shares two anecdotes: one about how she is using a Buy Nothing group on Facebook to get neighbors to help her train her dog (unbeknownst to them) and the other about how her attempt to use negative reinforcement to get her daughter to brush her teeth ultimately back fired (in a sort of hilarious way).

Like this episode? Leave a review on iTunes!

Follow us on Instagram: @schoolforthedogs @annie.grossman 

Episode with the lawyer suing Cesar Milan: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/dogs/episodes/Suing-Cesar-Meet-the-lawyer-of-teen-mauled-by-Dog-Whisperers-dog--And-How-to-train-2-dogs-at-once-e18r9eb

A trainer who goes by the name "Dog Daddy" has millions followers and has recently incited arguments on social media: His critics accuse him of harming dogs and calling it training; his fans accuse his detractors of being sissies who can’t face reality. These two vociferous groups are facing off online and at his in-person events around the world.

Annie puts the saga into the context of a larger (and longer) story about the use of force and coercion in dog training, and gives a nuanced explanation of what defines "balanced" training and what defines trainers that takes a "LIMA" approach. She also investigates Dog Daddy’s background and unconvers some surprising information about how he initially positioned himself to potential clients.

PLUS: The podcast has a new jingle, to go with its... new name! 

School For The Dogs Professional Course is taking applications! Apply at http://schoolforthedogs.com/pro

LIMA guidelines and the Hierarchy of Procedures for Humane and Effective Practice:

https://www.ccpdt.org/about-us/least-intrusive-minimally-aversive-lima-effective-behavior-intervention-policy/

Judge Rottenberg center: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/15/us/electric-shock-school.html

Dog Daddy Archive.org page: https://web.archive.org/web/20141108115514/http://gskennels.com/about-us/

Brandon McMillan’s training maraca: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kiFZ6Mikpo

Zak George on Instagram: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp6GpMnZHxg&t=45s

Cesar Millan’s “Shh”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp6GpMnZHxg&t=45s

Jeff Gelman on how Positive Reinforcement ruined his life: 

https://www.solidk9training.com/sk9-blog/2016/02/16/positive-reinforcement-training-resulted-in-my-becoming-divorced-drunk-and-suicidal

Facebook Page: The Truth About Griffin Shepherds

https://www.facebook.com/TheTruthAboutGrffinShepherds

Sometimes you stumble on something amazing and free.

Maybe that's how you feel about this podcast?

That's how Annie felt this week when her dream office chair appeared outside her door...

You can buy good dog training (or great chairs). That's what School For The Dogs sells. But you can also get a lot of valuable dog training advice for nothing, if you're lucky. You, dear listener, just got lucky.

Visit our new Online Campus to take advantage of a huge amount of free and low cost resource for dog owners. Join us for free Office Hours with a trainer every Thursday at 6PM ET.

http://sftd.online/events

Podcast exclusive: Get one month of full access to all our on-demand offerings, plus 12 Office Hours with a trainer per month. Listen to the episode for the link!

http://online.schoolforthedogs.com

http://schoolforthedogs.com/

http://storeforthedogs.com