How To Train Your Dog With Love + Science - Dog Training with Annie Grossman + Anamarie Johnson PhD

In this episode, recorded on November 6th, I recap some of the weird moments having to do with pets and other animals in the run up to the election, from Peanut the Squirrel to Kristi Noem shooting her puppy, several stories about people eating dogs and beyond. But the apex of the weirdness came to me in in a speech where Carlson Tucker starts off talking about how American’s are too nice to dogs, and then devolves into talking about how those on the left need to be, well… spanked.

As a positive reinforcement trainer, I cannot help but reflect on the Trump’s win through the lens of animal behavior, as I’ve come to understanding it through working with dogs. This leads me to wonder what would happen if political governance wasn’t rooted in punishment? Is it possible that helping people to better understanding and applying positive reinforcement in dog training could have broader implications for society? Maybe? Maybe. Maybe if we all spent more time training, we’d at least spend less time doomscrolling…

This episode includes parts from the last two chapters of my new book, How To Train Your Dog With Love + Science, one about studies that have been done on spanking kids and the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior’s recommendations on using punishment with dogs, and the other on BF Skinner’s suggestion for change people’s behavior on a societal level without force.

An audiobook version of the book has just been released from Tantor Press, narrated by Eunice Wong. If you’d like a review copy of the audiobook, I have a handful of download codes I can share to the first few people who email me to ask! Put audiobook in the subject.

Ruff timeline:

00:00 Reflecting on the Election Through a Behavioral Lens

00:52 Donald Trump's Childhood and Authoritarianism

02:01 Weird Moments in the Presidential Campaign

Note: I edited both the Carlson and Noem clips here for length but without changing the meaning. I felt that playing the clips in full was just too inhumane.

05:54 Tucker Carlson's “Daddy’s Home” Speech

07:05 The Role of Punishment in Behavior

08:19 Positive Reinforcement in Dog Training

11:28 The Importance of Good Dog Trainers

13:02 Book Excerpt

Links:

Boston Globe article I wrote about Romney and his dog in 2012

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2012/05/12/animal-welfare-matter-perspective/svHGwYm1ySStcy71UsfDzI/story.html

Mary Trump’s Too Much and Never Enough

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=too+much+and+never&hvadid=570437041410&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9198132&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=9363389111012905557&hvtargid=kwd-918535063643&hydadcr=27861_14512710&tag=googhydr-20&ref=pd_sl_8vr7g1ahk4_e

Youtube: Dog Bonking

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dog+bonking

Audio montage clips:

Trump “Eating The Dogs”

RFK Jr whale incident

RFK Jr denies eating dog

RFK Jr bear cub story

Kristi Noem reads from her book

JD Vance on peanut the squirrel

JD Vance on cat ladies

Tucker Carlsons’s Speech

Everything seems crazy and awful right now in the world and then, on top of it all, people are… putting costumes on dogs.

Anamarie and I delve into the weirdness and ethics of dressing up dogs. Additionally, we talk about Brian Hare and Vanessa Wood’s Atlantic article about a third wive of domestication in dogs, and the Monks of New Skete’s feature in the Associated Press. Ultimately, my 5-year-old sums up the spirit of the episode by sharing her own impromptu thoughts on how we should consider our dogs comfort above all else.

Notes:

Join me this Saturday 11/2 at The Museum Of The Dog where I will be interviewed by Alex Pasternack of Fast Company, and signing books and

Brian Hare and Vanessa Woods in the Atlantic

The Monks of New Skete in the AP

Genealogy of Obedience by Justyna Wlodarczyk

The Ewok Costume

Time stamps:

00:00  Halloween cnversations with a three year old

00:49 Upcoming Events and Announcements

02:32 Dog Halloween Parade Concerns

06:57 Dog Training Philosophies and Stereotypes

12:00 Service Dogs and Domestication

16:00 The Monks of New Skete in the news

31:31 Halloween conversations with a five year old

Anamarie and I recorded this episode separately because we had different things we wanted to communicate in a format that wasn't really right for conversation.

Me first: What if you're someone who has strong feelings about putting dogs in shock collars and... one of your friends publishes a paper on research she did that involved putting shock collars on dogs?

What if that person is your podcast host?

Hi, I'm Annie, and this is my life.

The day after I publish a book that is essentially a paean to Positive Reinforcement dog training rooted in science and research, a major journal publishes a paper (rooted in science and research!) that says that using a shock collar may be more effective when teaching a dog to stop chasing than reward-based training would be in the same period of time. Anamarie was one of the authors.

Do you hop on the bandwagon and hate on this person?

Do you yell at the angry mob -- which contains many of your colleagues -- to stop hating on her because she is someone you respect and love?

Do you hit your desk on the head several times because you know that 99.9 percent of US dog owners don't care about the studies or the ethics and will never consult with experts but are going to use these things anyway because THEY'RE COMPLETELY LEGAL?

Do you ... buy a shock collar?

Join me as I confirm all my worst fears during a series of phone calls with shock collar retailers.

In the 2nd part of the episode, Anamarie responds to attacks on   the study that has been the source of so much criticism in the Positive Reinforcement dog training community over the last few weeks.

You can read the study here:

More:

⁠GET MY BOOK! Upload a receipt and I'll send you a clicker and a sticker. ⁠

⁠Testing dog shock collars on young humans ⁠Youtube compilation by me (from 2011)

Add link to study 

https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/14/18/2632

Add link to the study about no one using trainers

https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/14/9/1310

Other links? 

How big of a money making market the ecollar industry is:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dog-shock-collar-market-growth-trends-forecast

Meet Anamarie Johnson! She was one of my first hires at School For The Dogs nearly a decade ago. She recently got her PhD, and she'd coming on to join me as a co-host!

Me= Annie Grossman, dog trainer, business owner, human. I started this podcast in 2018. I had to take a little time off, mostly because... I was working on a book! It comes out next week! Learn more at SchoolForTheDogs.com/book.

It's called How To Train Your Dog With Love + Science and much of it stems from conversations that started on this podcast.

In this episode, we talked about some of the crazy drama that's been going on, most of it having to do with positive-reinforcement pros and those trainers are positive-reinforcement adjacent going at each other online. Characters include Michael Shikashio, Zak George, Ivan Balabanov, Behavior Vets, Eileen Anderson, and Jo-Rosie Haffenden, among others.

Anamarie and I come to the conclusion that a lot of the pros don't know how to interpret science, and are basically just talking to each other since the majority of dog owners have no idea that dog training has anything to do with science to begin with.

I recently renamed the podcast to match the book's title: How To Train Your Dog With Love + Science.

I think it is fitting for the new format because Anamarie can be the science and I can be... the love? Or something.

Along with the new title came an amazing new theme song, by Sam Swinnerton, who recently KILLED IT on The Tonight Show! See here.

Also: I'm hosting a mini-conference on Sept. 7 at School For The Dogs in NYC (and also online). Registration closes Sept. 4. Learn more at ShoolForTheDogs.com/event.

See you next week!

x

Annie

Annie reads a post from Denise Fenzi's page that sparked some interesting comments on labels in the world of dog training. Some dog trainers are considerate about the use of some punishment in training and others work to avoid it at all costs. And then there are trainers who simply don't know what they're doing at all. Like... Dog Daddy. He calls himself "balanced" but no educated pro trainer would give him that label. Maybe the real problem is that to non-professionals, what this Insta-celeb doing is all they know about dog training.

TOPICS DISCUSSED:
- Frustrations with the dog training industry
- Divide between different training methods
- The problem of most people's lack of understanding of dog body language
- The weirdness of a spectacle-like approach to dog training
- Importance of focusing on the dog's well-being
- Potential for more animal training entertainment that actually shows off the magic of positive reinforcements

KEY TAKEAWAYS:
- Dog training should focus on the well-being and training effectiveness
of dogs rather than creating a spectacle.
- Understanding dog body language is crucial for preventing dog bites
and improving communication with dogs.
- The divide between different training methods should be approached
with open dialogue and growth in mind.
- Strength-based training can be effective in both academic and dog training settings.
- The well-being and safety of dogs and the public should be the
priority in dog training.

REFERENCES:
- Denise Fenzi's Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/denise.fenzi

GIVEAWAY:

This month's giveaway: Dog Listener hat. Enter to win at http://schoolforthedogs.com/pod

Get your own hat https://storeforthedogs.com/products/dog-listner-hat

⁠Dog Daddy, Part 1: The face of modern "bad" dog training⁠

https://spotifyanchor-web.app.link/e/IZ8rDgtkWEb

⁠Dog Daddy, Part 2: Zak George calls out animal abuse masquerading as dog training⁠

https://spotifyanchor-web.app.link/e/pqBs1htkWEb

⁠Annie sees Dog Daddy live. Also: Get to know Erin Whelan (2020 episode rebroadcast)⁠

https://spotifyanchor-web.app.link/e/0jWG1ftkWEb

Today I caught up with Zak George to hear the latest about his public feud with Dog Daddy.

See Dog Daddy's petition against Zak George at Change.org

https://www.change.org/p/stop-zak-george?source_location=search

Dog Daddy, Part 1: The face of modern "bad" dog training

https://spotifyanchor-web.app.link/e/IZ8rDgtkWEb

Dog Daddy, Part 2: Zak George calls out animal abuse masquerading as dog training

https://spotifyanchor-web.app.link/e/pqBs1htkWEb

Annie sees Dog Daddy live. Also: Get to know Erin Whelan (2020 episode rebroadcast)

https://spotifyanchor-web.app.link/e/0jWG1ftkWEb

Annie went to see Dog Daddy live in New Jersey this weekend and reports back about the odd experience of being in a room where what looked to her like animal abuse seemed didn't seem to bother anyone else.

The episode then includes a rebroadcast of a 2020 interview Annie did with School For The Dogs trainer Erin Whelan. Erin was a professional French Horn Player. Then she adopted a beagle mix named Oliver and enrolled him in Puppy Kindergarten at School For The Dogs. Then she did the School For The Dogs Professional Program. Now, she is a trainer and manager at School For The Dogs. She and Annie discuss switching careers, what it means to teach dogs virtually, human body language, and training as a kind of benevolent con game -- not like Dog Daddy's con!

Dog Daddy Part 1 -- all about DD

Dog Daddy Part 2 -- a conversation w/ Zak George

Enter November Giveaway at http://schoolforthedogs.com/pod

Apply to the SFTD Professional course at http://schoolforthedogs.com/pro

Sign up to hear about upcoming sales ate

http://schoolforthedogs.com/twelve

Get a Mendota leash that doesn't say "Tie Me Up Daddy" at http://schoolforthedogs.com/mendota

Zak George, one of the most influential dog trainers of the 21st century, has been using his large virtual platform to bring attention to the problematic methods being used by the Internet-famous dog trainer known as Dog Daddy.

Zak and Annie discuss the origins of this work, his efforts to get his followers to picket Dog Daddy's events, and more.

Annie also talks about why the conversation about whether or not it is advisable to use force in dog training feels especially important right now.

Find Zak George on Instagram or Youtube:

http://instagram.com/zakgeorge

http://youtube.com/zakgeorge

November giveaway: Enter to win a Hot Dog Trainer mug at http://schoolforthedogs.com/pod

Listen to previous episodes about Dog Daddy:

The SFTD origin story in "How We Got By" (Plus: Enter to win a "Hot Dog Trainer" Mug)

https://rebrand.ly/dpmdhwn

Dog Daddy, Part 1: The face of modern "bad" dog training

https://rebrand.ly/ulbq7zi

Karen Pryor's daughter Gale's article about her mother's dementia

My scientist mother has recorded how dementia affects her brain

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/10/11/magazine/her-dementia-in-her-words/

Annie is on Instagram at @annie.grossman

Like this podcast? Subscribe! Rate! Woof!

Annie reads from How We Got By, a new book by Shaina Feinberg & Julia Rothman which includes a chapter about how School For The Dogs got started. She also gives an update on the bizarre/sad Dog Daddy world tour, and shares how excited she got when she first read about a man being called "the hot dog trainer." Who was the handsome fella?

November giveaway: Enter to win a "Hot Dog Trainer" mug this month at http://schoolforthedogs.com/pod

Apply to the SFTD Professional Course through Nov. 30th. http://schoolforthedogs.com/pro

Get How We Got By on Amazon: https://rebrand.ly/hwgb

Hot Dog Train

Instagram:

@annie.grossman

@schoolforthedogs

Annie talks about why she is generally against costumes for dogs and suggests some alternatives to dressing up your dog on Halloween. She also discusses some feedback she got about last week’s episode, which featured an interview with the lawyer representing the woman who was mauled by Cesar Millan’s dog. Lastly, she shares two anecdotes: one about how she is using a Buy Nothing group on Facebook to get neighbors to help her train her dog (unbeknownst to them) and the other about how her attempt to use negative reinforcement to get her daughter to brush her teeth ultimately back fired (in a sort of hilarious way).

Like this episode? Leave a review on iTunes!

Follow us on Instagram: @schoolforthedogs @annie.grossman 

Episode with the lawyer suing Cesar Milan: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/dogs/episodes/Suing-Cesar-Meet-the-lawyer-of-teen-mauled-by-Dog-Whisperers-dog--And-How-to-train-2-dogs-at-once-e18r9eb