Episode #360: “To have my daughter summarily decide that I was complicit in genocide, I really had to think through again my logic for taking the position that we should stay. It sent me on a lot of soul searching,” confesses Ellen Goldstein, a former World Bank Country Director for Myanmar. This revelation, a central theme to her book “Damned If You Do”, encapsulates the dilemmas she faced during Myanmar's tumultuous democratic transition and the Rohingya crisis.

Goldstein's decades-long career, dedicated to poverty reduction, led her to Myanmar in 2017. Initially, the World Bank’s aid program brought economic reforms and growth. Yet, she quickly recognized that this prosperity masked deeper systemic issues, not reaching ethnic minorities in remote regions facing “exclusion, discrimination and abuse of civil liberties and human rights.” This exposed a fundamental flaw in the traditional development model, which often overlooked the political and systemic dimensions of poverty. 

A critical juncture arrived in 2017 when the military's atrocities against the Rohingya escalated. Despite a pre-approved $200 million grant to the civilian government, Goldstein faced an agonizing moral choice: disburse the funds and risk complicity, or withhold them. She chose the latter. This controversial decision, though ultimately costing her job, became a catalyst for change. And so instead of withdrawing, as some advocated for at the time, the World Bank “stayed engaged but focused on other things, such as social inclusion in conflict areas, specifically for deprived ethnic minorities.”

This strategic pivot influenced a new World Bank approach for fragile states: “to never disengage but to try to engage in ways that could drive forward the right values.” Considering this shift, Goldstein advocates for moving beyond state-centric foreign aid and supporting non-state and resistance actors in Myanmar, showing how dedicated individuals can continue to create new pathways for justice and human well-being amidst tragedy.

Episode #359: “The real motivating force is people, it is those human relations.” Duncan McArthur, a backpacker turned decades-long humanitarian leader, found his truth not in textbooks, but in the raw, unfiltered experiences along the Thai-Burma border. His journey began as an English teacher in a Karen refugee camp, where he was inspired by the resilience and humility of the communities he worked with in the face of unimaginable suffering.  

Motivated to stay on the border and continue working there, McArthur soon joined The Border Consortium in 2003, a charity organization that exposed him to the complexities and frustrations of the humanitarian aid architecture. He has observed how the transition-era ‘peace industry,’ as he calls it, often prioritized formal ceasefire agreements over addressing the root causes of conflict, leading to an influx of international aid workers who at times seemed more interested in career advancement than genuine impact. He also challenges the traditional notion of neutrality, advocating for Hugo Slim’s practice of “humanitarian resistance” where, in certain contexts, “choosing sides is actually essential in order to reduce suffering.” In Myanmar, this might mean working with ethnic armed organizations and civil society in Myanmar to reach the most vulnerable, who live beyond the military’s reach. 

McArthur also acknowledges the shortcomings of the UN's presence in Myanmar, which he sees as a lack of political leadership and a reluctance to directly confront the military junta. While appreciating the institution's aspirational goals, he urges a more proactive stance, including exploring satellite offices or parallel systems in neighboring countries to support sub-national authorities. McArthur's perspective is one of grounded idealism: recognizing the inherent self-interests of all actors, but seeking to align them with the greater good. “The challenge is as much as it is for negotiating access and delivering aid,” he reflects, “but also about how to strengthen the platforms that raise the voices of the oppressed and the marginalized to a meaningful level.”

Episode #358: The 4th International Conference on Burma/Myanmar Studies (ICBMS), hosted by Chiang Mai University in August 2024, brought together scholars, activists, and experts to discuss Myanmar's critical issues. The event focused on conflicts, peace processes, human rights, and the 2021 coup's impact, drawing an estimated 800 participants, making it one of the largest gatherings on Myanmar studies.

Insight Myanmar Podcast had exclusive on-site access, recording a number of brief interviews with a wide range of guests. These interviews explore many different themes, and we’re excited to bring them to you here. This is the third episode of our four-part series, and features:

Charlotte Galloway is an Honorary Associate Professor at the Australian National University, and has worked in Myanmar since 1999, focusing on art history, archaeology, and heritage conservation. She played a key role in cataloging museum collections and contributing to Bagan's UNESCO World Heritage listing, while advocating for the restoration of local scholarship and cultural heritage after the disruptions caused by the 2021 coup.

"Eileen" (a pseudonym used for safety), a Burmese youth activist and former Student Union member, has been instrumental in organizing protests against the military regime. She now advocates from Thailand for greater Thai and international involvement in Myanmar's crisis, urging more proactive approaches and emphasizing the importance of the voices of border communities in Thai-Myanmar relations.

Peter Morris, a lawyer, part-time journalist, and teacher, remains optimistic about the success of Myanmar's Spring Revolution. He emphasizes the unity of resistance forces, including ethnic armed organizations and the younger generation and highlights the growing solidarity among Myanmar’s diaspora, while underscoring the crucial leadership roles of youth and women in the revolution.

“Beverley” (a pseudonym used for safety), is psychologist working in the field of mental health and psychosocial support. She notes the significant rise in mental health issues since the coup, especially fear, anxiety, and grief. She explains that professional counseling is still relatively new in Myanmar, with many traditionally turning to spiritual practices for support.

Nang Moet Moet, a leader from the Women’s League of Burma (WLB), advocates for peace, reconciliation, and women’s political empowerment. She stresses the need for ethnic women's involvement in decision-making, while highlighting the intersectionality of the revolution as people unite to fight both military dictatorship and gender oppression.

Episode #357: When Wai Yan Phyo Naing, a civilian scholar in Myanmar vocal against the human rights atrocities of the junta, received a scholarship from a Russian university to pursue his Masters, he did not expect to receive a rare insight into the intricacies of Myanmar's military. Yet that is exactly what happened, as many soldiers were also studying at his university in Moscow. Surrounded by hundreds of uniformed students, he observed a prevalent insularity within their ranks. Yet, amid this closed environment, he identified a distinct subgroup: military officers whose willingness to interact with other international students cultivated, for him, a notable "sophistication and nuance." This observation led him to ponder the potential for these officers to subtly influence their homeland's future in ways the stricter officers could not.

The dramatic 2021 coup in Myanmar, however, abruptly shifted Wai Yan Phyo Naing's focus, placing him in a precarious position. When civilian friends in Moscow sought his counsel on protesting the junta — a perilous undertaking in Russia's restrictive political climate — he opted for a more strategic approach. His background in journalism proved invaluable as he drafted a public statement against the coup. He was careful to be diplomatic with his words, an act that speaks to his conviction that internal harmony is essential for Myanmar's future as, he argues, political factions have too often favored opposition rather than seeking practical ways to collaborate with all parties, ultimately holding back the nation's holistic progress.

As his research on Myanmar-China and Myanmar-Russia relations progressed, he also noted a significant geopolitical realignment recently: the junta's increasing change in strategy from its historical ties with China towards a partnership with Russia, who offer military arms to the junta. He questions this shift, considering China is a more immediate neighbor.

Wai Yan Phyo Naing further speaks on what he perceives as the delicate and often misunderstood role of Buddhist monks in Myanmar's political landscape. He offers a defense of controversial Buddhist monks like Dhammaduta Sayadaw, whose public silence regarding the junta, he suggests, may be a calculated measure to avert further violence and chaos. He stresses that it is fine to criticize monks, but to blame them would be to disregard their complex positionality.

Ultimately, Wai Yan Phyo Naing expresses a deep-seated anguish over the ongoing conflict. "I really hope fighting and killing each other is not the real solution for my country," he says, speaking for a future built on trust and comprehensive national development rather than perpetual strife.

Episode #356: Jonathan Crowley shares his experiences as an Assistant Teacher within the Vipassana Meditation Organization of SN Goenka. He participated in a culture that heavily prioritized rules and regulations over open and meaningful discussion about the practice itself. This lack of space for open dialogue, especially about the Dhamma, led Jonathan to feel that the organization was stifling inquiry and critical discourse.  

He was particularly concerned about the Organization's reluctance to engage with the Pali Canon apart from Goenka’s idiosyncratic interpretations, or to address social justice issues, including race and privilege. More broadly, Jonathan felt that this avoidance of critical topics has led to an environment where questioning or expressing any difficulty with the practice is not just discouraged, but seen as a threat to the purity and integrity of the tradition. This culture of non-questioning, according to Jonathan, fosters a sense of cognitive dissonance in many practitioners, as they are expected to accept the teachings without critical engagement.  

Jonathan’s growing discomfort with this environment led him to question his own involvement and sense of belonging. He found it increasingly difficult to reconcile his deep commitment to the practice with an environment that discourages a more holistic and critical engagement with the Dhamma. Despite the profound transformative experiences he had through the practice, the organization’s approach to maintaining its perceived purity ultimately felt too restrictive. He concluded that while the organization's emphasis on tradition and non-questioning was intended to preserve the teachings, it actually hinders open exploration and critical thinking, which are crucial for a deeper understanding and application of the Dhamma in all aspects of life. 

“When you're involved as much as I was, you can't really leave the Organization with dignity,” he says sadly. 

Episode #355: “You need to pay attention to what the kids care about,” says Naomi Gingold. “It will inform so much about the place that you're trying to understand, be it politics, culture, all of it! And you do a disservice to the nature of what you're trying to understand when you don't.” 

In the late 1990s, amid Myanmar's strict military rule, Burmese hip hop began to emerge as a new form of cultural expression. Young people blended beats, slang, and self-assertion to create a movement that challenged both cultural norms and the political narrative of a tightly controlled society. Gingold, a journalist and academic researcher, who has spent years studying Myanmar's hip hop scene, explains that even though the music wasn't necessarily explicitly political, many facets of hip hop were expressions of agency in a harshly suppressed environment and inherently defiant.  Her research (and book-in-progress) is on the birth, unexpected rise, and explosive impact of hip hop in Myanmar; it is a story she tells alongside the inseparable history and evolution of modern technology, the public sphere, as well as youth political sentiment and agency in the country. 

The group Acid—who became the first real hip hop stars in Myanmar—and other pioneering bands spoke to the frustrations of Burmese youth, addressing daily struggles and aspirations. Hip hop artists cleverly used coded language and slang to evade the scrutiny of an oppressive regime, embodying ideals of freedom and resistance in the process.  

The resurgence of military power in 2021 brought a return to repression after a period of relative openness and freedom. Among the most devastating events was the state execution of Phyo Zeya Thaw, a co-founder of Acid and a leader of the resistance.  His arrest and execution in 2022 were a chilling reminder of the regime's determination to crush dissent. Those events were also deeply personal for today’s guest and her research community, especially. 

She briefly reflects on the rise of new media post coup, "This was me reflecting primarily on changes in media/public sphere and youth political sentiment.  All part of my research. Though hip hop has affected the podcasts and social media platforms have become new vehicles for artists and activists to share their stories, discuss mental health, reflect on the ongoing revolution, and chat about the future they aspire to create. These new formats have allowed Burmese voices to reach an even wider audience, bypassing state-controlled media.”  

Episode #354: Saravanan, an advocate for Myanmar's alienated Tamil community, illuminates their rich, yet overlooked, history. He describes an ancient connection, starting around 300 BC, through trade between Tamil merchants and the Mon people. Those early Tamil migrants eventually assimilated completely, suggesting hidden Tamil ancestry in many Burmese today. 

The colonial era marked a huge turning point. From just 19 Indians living in Yangon in 1852, the rice boom led to a surge of cheap Indian labor, which totaled 1 million by 1931. This forced migration through indentured labor, akin to slavery, fueled Myanmar's economy but also bred resentment. Saravanan details how discriminatory terms like kalar became linked to darker skin, creating persistent color-based classism. Anti-Indian sentiment escalated, culminating in the violent Rangoon riots in the 1930s. Then post-1962, Ne Win's regime deported many Tamils and nationalized their assets, while also banning their language and culture outright. For those who remained, this caused deep self-suppression and alienation. While modern media offers cultural revitalization, political participation remains severely limited due to lack of citizenship and fear of retaliation. 

Saravanan emphasizes that for Tamils, neither dictatorship nor democracy has brought genuine inclusion. He advocates for an “alienated minority committee” to actively integrate these communities, recognizing their history and providing legal and social equality.  

“Society has to take a step back, look at us and say, ‘Okay, these people belong to us. They have to walk with us, because they are part of us,’” he says in closing. 

Episode #353: Professor Lahra Smith, a political science professor specializing in East Africa at Georgetown University, argues that Myanmar’s current struggles must be seen within a global framework of colonial legacies, using Sudan as a comparative case. While acknowledging contextual differences, Smith shows how both countries were shaped by British colonial rule that hardened ethnic divisions, created infrastructure disparities, and entrenched political inequalities. 

Sudan lies within Africa’s so-called "coup belt," illustrating a broader dissatisfaction with post-colonial governance and foreign interference. Like Myanmar, Sudan has suffered from military coups that initially promised reform but quickly descended into new forms of repression. Smith discusses how colonial policies divided Sudanese society along racial and religious lines, just as British colonialism in Myanmar entrenched ethnic and religious hierarchies that still drive conflict today. 

Colonialism’s infrastructural and missionary legacies further marginalized Sudan’s peripheries, fostering grievances that exploded into civil wars and the eventual, troubled independence of South Sudan. Similarly, Myanmar’s marginalized ethnic regions remain flashpoints for conflict. Smith stresses the need to move beyond thinking in terms of static land borders and recognize the deeper regional and cultural continuities that colonial boundaries disrupted.  

Ultimately, Smith emphasizes that identities and nations are constantly evolving, and that just drawing new lines on maps to replace the old, artificial, colonial ones will not solve the problems caused by the colonial experience. She stresses that genuine understanding requires recognizing this fluidity. 

The Global Citizen Podcast recently featured a look at the work behind Insight Myanmar and Better Burma, which we bring you here as a bonus episode.

Episode #352: Nicholas Coppel’s tenure as Australia’s ambassador to Myanmar (2015–2018) provides a unique lens on the country’s transition toward democracy, as well as the enduring challenges posed by military dominance. Serving during the historic 2015 elections, Coppel witnessed the National League for Democracy (NLD) rise to power under Aung San Suu Kyi. Yet despite the optimism surrounding the election, the military’s entrenched authority under the 2008 Constitution continued to hinder reform. Retaining control of key ministries and 25% of parliamentary seats, the military ensured an enduring imbalance of power, despite the civilian government’s best efforts. 

Coppel’s engagement was largely with the civilian government, as the military remained resistant to diplomacy. Australian programs like English language training for military officers aimed to bridge gaps, but he acknowledges their limited impact. Coppel’s reflections highlight how this lack of meaningful dialogue with the military constrained international efforts to anticipate or mitigate future conflicts, including during and after the 2021 coup. 

Coppel outlines the difficult balance the international community faces in responding to Myanmar’s post-coup environment. He notes that symbolic gestures like refusing to appoint ambassadors are clear signals of disapproval but do not exert meaningful pressure on the military regime. He warns that some well-intentioned actions, such as corporate withdrawals, have produced perverse outcomes—like increasing the military’s revenue share in sectors such as oil and gas—while simultaneously harming ordinary civilians, such as garment workers losing jobs. Rather than blanket disengagement, he encourages a more thoughtful approach: supporting efforts that sustain the people of Myanmar without empowering the military, including initiatives like exile media, telehealth, and distance education. 

Technology, according to Coppel, plays a dual role in Myanmar’s crisis. While it enables resistance through fundraising and information sharing, it also facilitates military surveillance and propaganda. Despite these challenges, he remains cautiously optimistic, believing that change will come from the resilience of Myanmar’s people. 

“I would encourage your listeners to remain engaged with Myanmar. I would hate to think that the country and our attention on it, and our interest in it is diminished because of the actions of a military general,” Coppel urges, emphasizing the importance of global support for the people of Myanmar.