Recorded on the outskirts of Samarkand, Uzbekistan, this episode finds David at the 20th Conference of the Parties to CITES – the global treaty that has regulated international trade in endangered species for the past 50 years. Inside, beneath flickering lights, 185 nation-states haggle over commas, clauses and quotas; at the back of the room sit conservation NGOs, animal welfare groups, trophy-hunting lobbyists, biomedical interests and import–export industries, all vying to shape the fate of the world’s wildlife.

Amid this diplomatic circus, just outside the expo centre, David sits down lakeside with Iris Ho, a proudly self-professed “CITES nerd”. Born in Taiwan and now based in Washington, DC, Iris is Head of Campaigns and Policy at the Pan-African Sanctuary Alliance (PASA) – the largest network of accredited primate sanctuaries in Africa. She explains how PASA’s work caring for rescued primates on the ground connects directly to the policies debated in those halls, and why a single well-crafted decision can protect far more animals than any one sanctuary ever could.

Together, they explore Iris’s efforts to up-list the golden-bellied mangabey to the highest level of CITES protection, to re-establish an international great ape enforcement task force, and the troubling case of a private “rescue centre” in India that has imported tens of thousands of wild animals under highly questionable circumstances. Along the way, Iris reflects on growing up in a Taiwan where shark fin soup went unchallenged, the quiet shift in public attitudes she’s witnessed across Asia, and how daily walks in her local DC nature reserve give her the strength to keep fighting for the natural world.

It’s an episode about primates and policy, hope and heartbreak – and about why, if we truly care for the wild lives we share this planet with, we might all need to become just a little bit more “nerdy” about treaties like CITES.

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