Michael Fullan is the former Dean of the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education, and Professor Emeritus of the University of Toronto. He is co-leader of the New Pedagogies for Deep Learning global initiative (npdl.global). Recognized as a worldwide authority on educational reform, he advises policymakers and local leaders in helping to achieve the moral purpose of all children learning. Highlights from his conversation with Rod and Jal include: definitions of coherence and enactment; an emphasis on leading from the middle instead of traditional ideas of top-down or bottom up; how districts waste too much money on policies that don't impact equity; the importance of student involvement in policy making conversations; and how to make students feel a greater connection to the success of humanity.