Isaac Orr researches and writes about environmental issues, mining, and energy for the Center of the American Experiment, a Minnesota-based think tank. In his fourth appearance on the podcast (his last was on March 7, 2023), Orr talks about the staggering cost of decarbonization mandates, why the EPA’s proposed greenhouse gas rule could result in blackouts across middle America, the impact of higher interest rates are having on renewable-energy projects, and the widening divide between urban and rural voters. (Recorded on December 4, 2023.)