Some of our discussions on this podcast can veer towards the abstract and philosophical. Not today! Migration policy is an area where high-minded principles drive headlong into authentic realpolitik — an area where science has lots to offer, but how much of it is actually listened to, never mind implemented, is a whole different question. Two experts on migration policy, Professor Jakub Bijak and Dr Daniela Vono, debate with Toby Wardman the pros and cons of working in such a contentious area.