What does it mean to be smart on crime? Jeanne Woodford, former warden at San Quentin State prison, has been a longtime advocate for rehabilitation. In our conversation, she offers a new vision of what prisons could look like, from removing prison cells to providing opportunities for incarcerated people to garden, take college courses, and even play chess with correctional officers. 

Follow When it Clicked wherever you get your podcasts, or listen ad-free on Amazon Music with your Prime Membership.

Stay up to date with us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram at @LemonadaMedia.

Want to become a Lemonada superfan? Join us at joinsubtext.com/lemonadasuperfan.

Click this link for a list of current sponsors and discount codes for this and all other Lemonada series: lemonadamedia.com/sponsors.

To follow along with a transcript, go to lemonadamedia.com/show/ shortly after the air date.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.