Jessup Think

In Part 2 Mark and Rex zoom in on the spiritual exercises of St. Ignatius Loyola and his Examen prayer.The pair explore how the practices of a 16th century Spanish monk are more relevant today than ever.

TRANSCRIPT

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Welcome to Jessup think I'm your host, Mark Moore

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and your co host Rex Gurney.

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There we go. And this is part two of our series on ancient Christian practices, right. And I'm really excited today because we get to kind of dive into a couple of these practices, particularly kind of going to kind of spend the episode with St. Ignatius,

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right. And he's someone that actually has informed the devotional life of both of us and so right.

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Yeah, really has and so it'll be nice. And so we kind of want to, you know, connect with, like, on last episode, we kind of talked about, yeah, what had informed our spiritual lives, the way disciplines came in the way these ancient Christian practices kind of spoke to us. And particularly Ignatius as spiritual exercises. Right, right. You know, we're a part of that, but I think it'd be great to for the listener to kind of, because we maybe have heard about St. Ignatius. You know, probably if you've been in the church, someone has maybe said it, you may have even heard, like the ignition exercise, especially if you've dabbled in disciplines, right. But we might not have kind of that backstory,

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and you know, stuff about church history is actually kind of confusing anyway, because one of the early early early church fathers was St. Ignatius, too, right? That's

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what Yeah, you're like Now which one? Which one? So, so, Rex, tell us which one are we talking about?

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We're talking about Ignatius, number two, not Ignatius. There's about 1500 years between the two of them, right, actually. And so Ignatius of Loyola is a Spaniard. And we were actually talking about this right before the podcast started that if you want an image in your head of the young, saying, well, he wasn't a saint. He had their young, Ignatius Loyola, um, think of the Princess Bride and Eagle Montoya because that actually was what the Loyola wanted to be born in a fairly wealthy Spanish family, kind of minor nobility. And he spent most of his early, early adulthood or, um, as sort of a co ta in the Spanish court. And he was one of those guys, you know, looked good ladies, man. All are really felt. really had a high opinion of himself. Yeah.

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I also read in his kind of a biography that he was of short stature. Exactly. So you appreciate that. I appreciate I aligned with Okay, St. Ignatius, and maybe even more vain. I don't Yeah, that's true.

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I understand, actually, to talk about his vanity. One thing that kind of was a major turning point in his life. It's sort of turned this vein cotpa into the founder of the Jesuits, actually, was the fact that he was at the siege of Pon Plummer. I think the French were actually be French. Yeah. And he was actually one of the main folks officers that the defenders of Pamplona were rallying around, and at least that's the story I've heard.

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Right. And this is around 1521, certain length

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and, and his leg is shattered by Cannonball. Oh, and Yeah, that'll slow you down pretty powerful. And it really did slow him down. And actually, I guess it's providential that is slowed him down, because he ends up surviving that but he goes into a long convalescence, basically at his sister's house, which is interesting, right. Yeah. And before we get to the only reading material that was available to him in his long convalescence, and he understand he wanted to actually get better and get back in the game, that was his whole purpose. Right with this. He had no idea that God was going to get a hold of him.

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Yeah, he was gonna get the same title later, man. He had no I was looking for other

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title. He was looking for other things. Exactly. And he actually had

Mark and Rex begin a three part series on ancient Christian practices by discussing how the great disciplines of the Church have played a pivotal role in both of their spiritual lives.

TRANSCRIPT

0:08

Welcome to Jessup think I'm your host, Mark Moore

0:10

and your co host Rex Gurney.

0:12

That's right. And today, it's just you and I, Rex? Yeah.

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It's the first time in a while.

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It's good. It's good. We can just have a conversation. Yeah, yeah. And we're actually doing something a little bit different. We're doing a three part series, right? It'll be part one of a three part series on ancient Christian practices, right. And today, we'll

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basically be talking about how these practices have sort of import, you know, impacted our own spiritual life and our own devotional practices and kind of the learning curve that we had to have in order to start incorporating some of this stuff into our lives. And yeah,

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yeah. And then with the next couple of episodes, we're going to then dive into some brackets, right? Yeah. Right, give you some more kind of details of those practices, if you want to try to add them to your own spiritual life as well. Exactly. So we're going to be looking at the ignition exercises, his prayer of examine

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contemplative prayer, look at spiritual retreats, and when and where you can go on them and how accessible they are even Yeah, if we if we're not cognizant of that right now.

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Exactly. Yeah. And, and hopefully, maybe to kind of demystify some of exactly,

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exactly,

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exactly, that they can either be held with like, oh, only the spiritual giants.

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And and that's actually really appropriate, because we have one spiritual giant here. And Mark Moore. That's right, like an expert in these practice sizes. And I've had a really steep learning curve. And so maybe some of you will be able to identify with the struggles that I've had Mark has to go right. Yeah,

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I will play the role of the spiritual giant here, I'll take it, I'll be fine. That's fair, it might actually be the opposite of latency. But in my own kind of faith journey. By the time I was a junior in college, I was just really like, honestly, just tired of being a Christian. I grew up in a wonderful Christian home. And I went to Christian Schools my whole life. So I went to the same private Christian school from preschool till High School and apparently watched some Christian TV

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along Yeah.

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Yeah, we had some steady stream of Christian television happening in our in our house in rural Indiana. It was the only thing that really came in on and, and with that, you know, and then I went to a Christian College, very similar to William Jessup University, similar size, similar focus. And by the time you know, as I was, you know, 20 years old, I was in Bible classes. I knew the right answers. I could easily affirm that the core doctrines I wasn't I wasn't having a crisis of faith in that sense. You weren't feeling it, but yeah, no, just wasn't feeling it. And, and I realized it was actually on a cold Midwest afternoon. Oh, wow. There's

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actually a weather component. Yes, story. Oh, my God, it's always

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cold.

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Music, we could Cue the music right now. Perfect, okay.

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And it would have to be like some type of 90s. Some sad, Alanis Morissette are happening in the background. And, and I was in an off marine on an off campus apartment living with some guys and I, I just remember, kind of in the quiet of my room, just just kind of asking myself like, Okay, what am I doing? I call myself a Christian. I have this great Christian heritage. But there's nothing in my life right now, that makes my life any different. Right? than someone who's not a Christian, right? There's, there's nothing that structures my life around my faith. My faith was always just kind of like an add on. And then you had r

Professor of Christian Thought Brad Swope joins Rex and Mark to explore violence as entertainment. Does the Christian faith influence the way we consume violent sports, violent video games, or violence in television or film?

TRANSCRIPT

0:00

Welcome to Jessup Think, Jessup's official podcast. That's right. And this is your co host Rex Gurney.

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And I'm Mark Moore.

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I think you'll find today's topic. Fascinating.

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Yeah. Today on the show we have one of our professors here Brad Swope, he's also a pastor, he's

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actually my pastor. Oh,

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there we go having your pastor on exactly. Really watch what I say, exactly, you have to be on your best behavior. Exactly. And he's going to be talking about the topic of violence as entertainment, and how we consume violence. And especially within the church, we've we've done a good job within the church of not consuming sexually graphic content. But violence has been another conversation, violence in our movies and TVs violence in our sport, or a conversation

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that actually hasn't happened. And it's a conversation that we really need to have.

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It really is. And so we hope you enjoy this episode, and I think it will be thought provoking. And you might might even be a little upset sometime. Okay, that's good.

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Well, Brad, we have you on the show today, because we want to kind of talk about the research that you've been doing. Recently, research in your doctoral studies on kind of the effect of violence as entertainment, and especially within the church, maybe churches, consumption of violence, as well as our culture. And you kind of know, our culture's love for violence. And that has bled into the church a little bit, you kind of noted as an evangelical blind spot. So would you mind kind of as we begin here, just maybe summarizing your kind of research points and, and maybe particularly how it has an effect on the church.

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Yeah, near the end of your doctorate, you're going to have to pick a focus area, and I'm in a coffee shop. My final for my final project, and I'm listening to two pastoral interns from a local church, talk with great joy about this MMA fight that they had just watched, and the vicarious thrill in the blood in the and at the same time, I'm reading primary sources about the early churches response to gladiatorial contests. And so I'm thinking, how is it that were the Christians had such a strong voice to end a form of violence? Now? If Of course, it doesn't end in killing, here is a Christian community that supports it now. And then you just blow it up and you think, Well, I know of churches that use MMA fights to support their men's ministry.

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Then there's actually a documentary called fighters fight church, Pastor versus pastor Well,

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there's also be good at that.

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There are churches that set up outreach programs to youth that set up essentially MMA training. Right, right for kids. And so it just made made me think about the question, how is it that what was something we were so against and actually help stem the tide? The early church? We have no voice. There are the Christian Avondale community has a loud voice on lots of issues. But this is one that we have absolutely no voice in. In fact, what I found is just by asking the question, should we consume this? Typically, the pushback, especially for men was what are you a pacifist? Right?

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What are you a weakling? Right? They didn't say that to my face, because I need that.

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But obviously, I wouldn't, but you're violent, exactly. But let me teach you how non violent I am by beating you up. Now. The idea is, it's almost like, you're less of a man by just asking the question, should we be consuming this as a product of entertainment?

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Right, which is a problem I mean, within the church to to stop that conversation before it even begins? We just say, Hey, I'm just asking h

English professor Portia Hopkins joins Mark and Rex to discuss the role language plays in theology. They note that all theology is shaped by language and it is extremely important for the church and the Christian today to be aware of the theological and social implications of language.

TRANSCRIPT

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Welcome to Jessup think I'm your host Mark Moore, and Rex Gurney your co host. That's right. And on today's episode, we're joined by, by a heavy hitter,

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Portia Hopkins, former chair of our English department, and still a mainstay of it.

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Yeah. And we have a conversation that covers theology and language and specifically how language affects theology. And it's a fascinating conversation. And so we hope you enjoy. Yeah.

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Well, yeah, and today, we really do want to talk about the topic of language in theology, and specifically how language affects theology. And for me that this, this kind of idea, or this topic was really illuminated by a radio lab episode. So radio lab comes out of W. NYC. And they were kind of, I would say, they're kind of pioneers on that hybrid between radio shows and podcasts. And I actually have my theology class, they have to listen to a segment. So there's nothing on the screen Actually, we had to put like a moving picture on the screen just because I'm like, I know you need something so like, is that hard for them to do? They like squirming? Yeah, I know, like, we're gonna well up all of our maturity. And we're gonna listen. I also have to, you know, explain to him what the radio is. You know, it used to be a thing where you didn't get to choose what was on it, you get to choose the channel and turn it on or off. But But radiolab did a an episode, actually, it was an episode on color, and how we see colors where they came into, or you know, as we started to kind of denote when they came in the language, things like that. And they do a segment on the color blue is just fascinating. So they kind of start with looking at ancient writings. So ancient Greek looking at Homer specifically. And they realized through it actually, it's actually through a guy named William Gladstone. So he was like a four time or five time Prime Minister of England, he just loved Homer. So he wrote, like a three volume, like, just the epic tome on on Homer. And he started to notice when he was doing that, that Homer used color in really weird ways. And then he came to that really shocking conclusion. He doesn't use blue at all, like not one time, which is really amazing. I mean, I think and even when I heard that, I was like, well, we I mean, blue is many people's favorite color. So yeah, you know, and, and within the episode, they switch, they kind of start with that, which that was intriguing. They switch to he's a professor of neuro psychology, and he's working with a tribe in Namibia. And, and they don't have a separate word for blue. And so he showed them a screen with 1212 squares on it. And 11 of them are very well, we would call green. I mean, they they look green, and then one of them is blue. I mean, it is the blue is blue, you've seen and that tribe members as they would look at the screen, couldn't didn't notice a difference. Like he would ask them, did any of the squares look different to you? and not do you can you know, a difference just and they double check that none of them are colorblind? Yeah, like that does as an issue, like some of our friends that we may remain nameless. But, but they didn't have that word. And so that's kind of like the, and they kind of noted like, it wasn't that they couldn't physically see it, they were seeing it. But the word somehow unlocked their ability to see it right. Or to see the difference in man, that concept of me just was like, wow, that like that really brought to the forefront like Oh, how language and it made me think of this the word God. I mean, many times we don't realize this, but God did not give himself the name God, that Go

Jackson Arnett sits down with Mark and Rex as the first Jessup student guest to discuss Moral Therapuetic Deism. MTD was coined by researchers studying the spiritual life of the average American teenager to summarize their majority belief that God exists but is not necessarily involved in day to day life. Goodness is the goal. The trio see if this research has stood the test of the last decade with some surprising ans insightful results.

TRANSCRIPT

0:08

Hey, welcome to Jessup think and I'm your host Mark Moore. Joined by my esteemed co hosts Really? Yeah Julius don't go Julius. Okay. Rex Gurney. Okay, the third Julius. I have to I just can't and and excited to be with Rex but also to to welcome our very first student guest Jackson Erna, welcome to the show. Thank you. And this is your last semester. Yes. So Lord willing, yeah, light is at the end of the tunnel. If we speak it into your life, yes. Speak. Yes, this is your last semester. Although we will we will still take your money if it's kind of a catch. 22 like we're not that sad one of those if they have to see you again. But we

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will actually always taking money because you're gonna get the Yes, right.

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Yes. Right. Exactly. Yeah. So you can't escape. You can't escape. It's gonna keep coming.

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But we've both had you in class before and, and then Rex, you may not know this, I wanted to kind of throw this out. You know, Jackson, I have done a couple speaking gigs together. That's true. And, and from that has kind of spurned maybe a side project, you know, it's a side, maybe a side podcasts, you know, coming out in about 2029. Maybe, but we're gonna it's gonna be kind of like a coming of age Podcast, where we talk about really just kind of intense stories of middle school. So let The Wonder Years. Yes, exactly. Okay. And we're gonna call it awkward transitions. Okay, so it's gonna, it's gonna be perfect. We've already trademarked it. We're already practicing for that today. Yes, we are. Yes, we are. And that's the other part of the packet is we're only going to use one microphone, so we're gonna have to so it's just gonna be built right in. It's just gonna be awkward transitions are already there. Yeah, it's just a currently Yes. And, and that's kind of middle school, that it is just so well. Awkward. And, and it doesn't get maybe less awkward into high school. But, or even adulthood. Maybe you

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just learn to cope with what makes awkward transitions universally relevant. Yes, that's

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true. It's just there. That is part of our byline. Yeah, right now we're writing it. We're creating a podcast on a podcast. Wow. Yeah, it's inception podcast happening. But we Bri on the show. We want to talk about a topic that I love the title of the topic. But it does actually connect with middle school and high school students in their maybe beliefs about God and in general. And that topic is called moralistic therapeutic deism. And the listener may have just done a double take and their phone or their car radio. Do you know what a radio is? Jackson? I'm familiar. Okay. Music, museums, cars. You used to have radios. You weren't even allowed to choose what was on them. Like you could choose a station just happened this video station, they say also, that's true. That's true. But yeah, so you may have you may have taken a doubletake and say, Wait moralistic therapeutic deism, I think maybe I understand all of those words separately. But what? What do those words mean together? So Rex, why don't you give us a good definition of Sure.

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Sure. Um, this actually comes from a study that was done in 2005, about the religious views of just sort of teenagers in America, I assume some of them like youth grouped, and some writing just from the general population. But the findings of that were really interesting and they kind of go here around five sort of core beliefs that these these youth have about have about God. And whether fo

Brian Lucas, founder of Adams Avenue Bookstore, sits down with Mark to discuss the importance of reading well. This episode looks to inspire us to put down the remote and pick up a book now then to truly feed our souls. The pair will discuss views of CS Lewis and Dorothy Sayers on this topic. Mark will also reveal a very interesting connection in the opening section of the show.

TRANSCRIPT

0:08

All right. Well, welcome to Jessup. Think and I'm your host, Mark Moore. And I could not be more excited to have my good friend on the show, Professor of Greek is CS Lewis, Master, German scholar, Brian Luke is Brian, thanks for being on the show today.

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It's a pleasure and you've already gone over the top.

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Yeah, I've already you know, I've said too much already. I've said too much. But how long have you been with Jessup? Brian,

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this is this is my 12th. Year. Okay, you're right. Yeah, I was 19 2007 that I started. adjunct thing and also working in running the bookstore back then, when Jessup had the bookstore on campus. Okay. Yeah, that's great. and nice. campus was about, I think, a fourth of the students that we currently have.

0:55

Right? Yeah, it's grown so much in these 12 years. Yeah, it's been, I've been nine years now. Here. And yeah, just I mean, it's growing every year. It's really great to be a part of that. And, you know, it's interesting, you brought up that you worked with the bookstore here, because I want to kind of start with a story that I think is I think, is really interesting, if I do say so myself about my story that I haven't said yet. But but it was in 2001. I moved from the beautiful state of Indiana. cornfields as far as the eye could see breathtaking sunsets, because you could actually see the sunset. I'm over the horizon. I moved from there to a to a slightly, maybe a slightly more beautiful city in San Diego, California. Some may, some may say it's more beautiful than Indiana. I'm, I'm on the edge there. I like them both. But I moved there to go to grad school, and also to work at a church. And while I was working at the church in the college group, some of the students knew I was going to school knew I was, you know, academically minded. So they were like, Hey, you have to check out this bookstore that we just found. And I was like, Yeah, I'd love I mean, I loved old books, ever since I was a kid I loved collecting old things even and just in and we use books and, and so went with them and quickly fell in love with this bookstore called Adams Avenue bookstore in, in San Diego. And it was so amazing is that it appeared at first to be just a just kind of a normal used bookstore, with, you know, shelves of fiction and art history and some cookbooks, some travel books, a couple of cats roaming around. And then I went upstairs and entered this magical world of theology and biblical studies and spirituality. And it was just a it was the largest section or selection of used books in theology and bib studies, and, and spirituality that I had seen in any used bookstore that I've been in before. And so I just quickly fell in love with it, it became still is my favorite bookstore of all time. Fast forward. A few years, I've moved back to after grad school, moved back to Indiana for a little bit, then came to Sacramento in 2008. I started teaching here in 2010. And that's where I met you, Brian met here on campus. So we will you know, we can ask the audience. We have never met each other before William Jessup universe. That's right. There was no connection. There's no connection beyond that. But when we were talking just in that one, a couple of first conversations we had just getting to know each other. You mentioned that you lived in San Diego, and that you own a bookstore in San Diego, they own a bookstore in San Diego. And I asked you Oh yeah, what was your bookstore name? And when you said, Adams Avenue bookstore, I swear, fireworks went off in the background.

Mark and Rex tackle the topic of vocation or calling. There are many things that can occupy our time, but what are we called to do. Finding one's true vocation is the key to a fulfilling life. Rex and Mark will quickly note that this does not mean fulfilling our calling will be easy though.

TRANSCRIPT

0:08

Well, welcome to Jessup think I'm your host Mark Moore, and I'm joined by my esteemed co host. And it's Rex Gurney. Ryan Julius Rex Gurney the third I'm gonna say every time, every time on this episode Rex, we're gonna look at the topic of vocation. Okay. And when you start any conversation, I think it's really important to define terms. Maybe that's just part of, you know, the scholarship world. We're a part of philosophical world, even, you know, it's

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always about defining terms, so much misuse of language right now that you know, right.

0:43

The only thing probably the only place in my life that I found it is not helpful is when I'm communicating with my wife. Okay. And you want to deliberately vague Yeah, you want to vague or in the middle of maybe like an argument. You don't want to stop and be like, let's define terms that hasn't gone over well, in my life, I can see that I see that, especially questioning how she's using a word right now. Is that what you mean? And then that doesn't go well. So I usually just shut up in my patio. Yeah, we can learn we got to learn these things. We got to. But But what's the words? So with the word, vocation, I think it's important to it's kind of a common word. In our vernacular, we hear it a lot, especially in the Christian community, right? You hear vocation, we also use the word occupation. And I feel like sometimes we use them interchangeably. Okay. And I think it's important to note a difference between those two words between vocation and occupation and between vocation and a job or whatever, right? Yeah. Yeah. Cuz it seems like when it vocation comes from kind of that root word in Latin Bokhari meaning calling, so vocation is calling an occupation really does come from that root word that means to occupy your time, right, that something occupies your time work occupies your time. And those two concepts are really different. Right, right. Calling and occupying your time. And, and and not all the ways do. Our does vocation and occupation line up right in our lives. And so I think it's, I think it's important to kind of know, that difference between my calling, and then maybe what my current occupation is, and, and I had a, you know, in college was in a 90s, college rock band, right, you know, it was a rite of passage. Everyone had to whether they could play or not, right, yeah, whether you could play well the beautiful thing about the 90s is you needed like three chords, power chords, and just turn up the distortions. Right. And, and you had it. So but we, there was this really great because yourself, the vocations is this vocations? No, we were actually call ourselves paradigm paradigm five, because paradigm fog, cuz we were in a worldview class, and we heard paradigm and our drummer was like, Oh, that's a good band name. So yeah, you know, it's a mixture. Yes. So we got to use our words carefully in class, because they might be best ones coming up. That's right, might be new, new bands, but there was a piano player at the church where we all went. And he was a great musician. And he was kind of a traveling musician throughout the 60s. And so we kind of as a band really got mentored by him and and they're, some of the guys in the band traveled with him and a different kind of conventions and things. And he just had really good little quips and advice on being a band and, and really kind of calling and vocation and he told us one time he said, he said sometimes in the music world, is that sometimes you play to live like you just play a gig to get money to live, but sometimes you live to play and and that was just that it was interesting when he sa

Julius Rex Gurney III, professor of History and voice of reason, joins the show for the first time in his role as an esteemed cohost. Mark and Rex are joined by friend of the show Derek Martin, director of the Theater Arts program. The three discuss the role of generational influence on pop culture and the church.

TRANSCRIPT

0:08

All right, welcome to Jessup think I'm your host, Mark Moore. Or should I say one of your hosts, but we will get to that in a second. But I want to welcome back on the show friend of the show, or you only have to be on the show twice to be a friend of the show. So you're now friend of the show. Professor and Director of our theater arts program, Derek Martin. Thank you. Welcome back. Welcome back. I wanted to fix a T shirt for that, like friend of the show. Yeah, we can we can start making started. That could be part of our merchandise. Okay. Okay. That'll be unfolding over this. Okay. Over there. I'll be on the lookout for this. Right. Yeah, be ready. Social media. It'll be out there. But Derek, I'm glad you're here on this episode. Because we do have is kind of a special episode. In many ways. Special in the sense that as as hosts, I've also convinced another friend of the show, to to be a reoccurring co host with me. There'll be a voice and and he is the the one in the only the voice of wisdom and reason. History, Professor of History and theological award winner always throw that in. Julius Rex Gurney the third. So

1:27

do I get my T shirt? Now? You do. Okay. Okay, I feel better about myself.

1:31

And I know, you go we know I mean, we'll mostly be calling you Rex, you go by Rex around the school. But if I had the name Julius Rex guarantee the third, I would have it on a T shirt, and I would wear it around. Totally. I'd be like, this is literally my name.

1:45

So you don't understand what being named Julius gonna be the third means on an elementary school playground. That's true. That's why I'm Rex. That's why I'm right.

1:54

I'm thinking purely college professor.

1:57

Okay, okay. That name is sort of too late now. Right? It's sort of, yeah, it was even on my high school diploma, bizarrely enough, because everybody knows me by that.

2:05

Yeah. Everybody knows you by Rex. So that's cool. That's awesome. That is amazing. One. Rex. And Eric, I wanted you on the show today to discuss an observation that I made recently. So I teach a class entitled scripture and pop culture, which is a really fun class to teach. Because my research mostly consists of watching copious amounts of Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, video prime, HBO, YouTube, YouTube TV, which you do anyway. Yeah. I'm already. So in this way. It gives me a great excuse. Like when people walk into my office, sometimes on my iPad, I'm like, I'm research, research, research and for class, when my wife needs me to help out, I'm like, I'm really busy. Right now. So I'll get to the trash later. This is like the 15th time I'm watching the office. And I'm really it's about who's paying the bills around here. Yeah, exactly. I know, we can get sponsorships by Oh, by the big, the big five. But as I was kind of watching and over break, definitely kind of watching in preparation for the class. I just started to notice something. And I started to notice that within pop culture, there's a heavy amount of what what I've started to call generational influence. And I think often we think of pop culture as new and cutting edge and whatever other words, you want to add there, right? That it's out front of culture. And sometimes we're like, I can't keep up with pop culture type of thing. But what was interesting is I I started noticing, when you actually look at popular cultural artifacts, that they have a heavy amount of generational influence. So the culture creators, the writers, producers, directors, artists, who are kind of creating these really are bringing with them cultural values that they experienced when they

Psychology Professor Richard Mullis rejoins Mark to discuss the role of originality in identity. Together Mark and Richard examine the writings of Adrian van Kaam, a mid-twentieth century, Dutch, catholic priest who wrote extensively on the topic of identity and spiritual formation. His unique definition of originality guides the episode and grounds a proper understanding of our uniqueness and our Divine origin in God.

TRANSCRIPT

0:08

Welcome to Jessup think I'm your host, Mark Moore. And back on the show is Professor of Psychology. Richard Mullis. Richard, welcome back. Thank you, it's great to be back, you know, it's good to have you back so soon to so soon to, to kind of do a little, little part two of our, in our last episode together, we talked about identity in Christ. And we're going to kind of build on that today. But remind me kind of how we looked at identity in Christ, how do we define identity in Christ?

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I believe that our deepest core sense of identity is as being made as a child of God being made in the image of God. And so that is, like, deep and fundamental, and, and irreplaceable, and other other forms of identity that aren't kind of grounded in that I'm suggesting might be problematic for the human person. And yeah, maybe we'll talk about some of that. But

1:05

yeah, cuz we did, we referenced kind of when you when you look at that identity at your most profound level, right, and grounding that in the imago, dei, the image of God, and understanding yourself as a child of God as your, as your most your most fundamental core identity, that also brings up that we have all these false identities, that that these false sources of identity that we find ourselves in and we referenced, are one of our favorite writers and renowned and he talks about kind of three false sources of identity that I am, what I do, I am what I have. I am what other people say about me, which every time I say those three, I realized that those are three that I still struggle with. Oh, yeah. That that even though I've read him and read that a million times from him, I can still read that and be like, yep, I still find my identity in all three of those things. Sometimes at the same time.

2:04

Yeah, that's right. And, and I think we briefly spoke about it. But sometimes we have to get clear on that. And almost like, say out loud, least for me, I have to say out loud or put it in a journal like okay, right? Well, these things are important, you know, what I do or what they're important, what people say, and etc, etc. But they're also not the deepest core fundamental thing. So sometimes I have to have renunciate or runouts. Yeah.

2:32

Yeah. And I think and you kind of we talked last time, either about those practices of either journaling it out saying it out loud, like really negating those things. And, and I think that's just so important. And it's something that you don't just do once, we have to keep, you have to keep doing, but kind of Henry now in will transition into kind of another writer that I want to focus on today. He is also a mid 20th century, Dutch Catholic priests, psychologists. Awesome. Yeah. Which is just bread and butter. I'm seeing a trend here. Yeah, just his name is Adrian Vaughn calm. And, and he's among like, numerous spiritual formation topics that he has written on. He writes a lot about identity and originality. And he has this great little book from the early 70s. It has a beautiful 70s cover to love oranges and yellows. Yeah, it's beautiful. And it's the title is great title is very good. Early 70s. Title two, on being yourself. Yeah, I love that. It's kind of you know, I mean, cuz I think a lot of people in the late 60s kind of lost their minds, and maybe lost themselves themselves. And so early 70s is like a is nice for this book to come on being yourself. And he makes a really good connection. And I think a really good contrast, actually, between what we mean when we tal

Psychology Professor Richard Mullis joins Mark to explore the often noted yet also often misunderstood concept of identity in Christ. Over the last decade the church has stressed finding your identity in Christ but it has not always clearly defined what is meant by the phrase. Appealing to their shared spiritual formation backgrounds, Mark and Richard look to define what it is and what it isn’t.

TRANSCRIPT

0:08

Welcome to Jessup think I'm your host, Mark Moore. And today on the show, I'm really excited to be joined by a psychology professor Richard mullis. Thanks for coming on the show. Happy to be here. And we actually have a connection that maybe, you know, many of our listeners don't know about. Kind of a connection. We didn't know each other there. But I did my graduate studies at Biola, and Talbot, and I was a part of the second semester of the first year of the spiritual formation Institute. And you were also at Biola, Talbot around the same time,

0:42

correct? That's correct. Yeah, I was a graduate student doing my doctorate in clinical psychology. And I was teaching as an adjunct professor in the Institute of spiritual formation,

0:53

Hey, I know and I missed you, I missed we didn't even I missed you, man. We will, well, we're gonna we're gonna connect later on our Biola connection. Even more, so it's just it's all gonna be full circle. But I was really excited to kind of bring you on the show, based on that kind of spiritual formation background and that blend of formation and psychology and theology. And and I'm really want to talk about the topic of identity and identity in Christ. I think it's, it's really, maybe kind of like a buzz term. Now, if we can say that, like a buzz Mo's term. term. And, and I think we use it a lot. And I think it's been good that we've been kind of stressing that to younger generations. And we've really been kind of hyping that I think if you talk to a lot of maybe even high schoolers, your highs and about their youth groups, they've probably heard that phrase, identity in Christ, we'll see that within the church as well. But it's also we do this a lot in the church, we have phrases that we use, but we don't really define them. And we don't maybe know. And we all just kind of nod and say, yeah, I think I know what that means. And we don't maybe really know what it means. But it's kind of like when you've met someone, and you're past the point where you're gonna ask them their name again, right? Like, you've met him a couple times. And so we've all like used the phrase a couple times. So we can't ask now, what is this mean? Because then you play your cards that you don't know, you know, anything of what the identity in Christ, what it really means. I mean, I think we have a general knowledge. And so I want to kind of really explore that, you know, and I think identity is just a huge issue for not only young people, but everybody struggles with kind of identity and understanding who they are their role in the world. But particularly, I teach a freshmen class, and we spend our entire session on our week on identity. And it's, it's just really interesting to see, maybe lights going on of them realizing I've been finding my identity here or there, and just noticing that struggle. And as you and I know, Richard, it doesn't get any easier as you get older. It's not like you solve the identity problems. At 18. That's for sure. And then and then move on. And so I guess with this, for me starting it, and maybe starting to define it, I'd like to, to get a grasp on the terms too. And and so just when we say identity, what do we what do we really mean when we say identity?

3:40

Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think at its rock bottom core identity is that which you are most deeply and profoundly constituted by okay.

3:51

Yeah, like that deeply and profoundly constituted by Yeah. And I have to define constituted,

3:57

yeah, like, you know, like our