Author and theologian Kelly M. Kapic joins Mark and Rex to discuss his book Embodied Hope: A Theological Medidation on Pain and Suffering.

TRANSCRIPT

0:02

Welcome to Jessup think I'm your host Mark Moore and your co host Rex Gurney. And on the show today, we're so privileged to have Kelly M. Capek on the show. He's an author, Professor of theological studies at covenant college on Lookout Mountain in Georgia.

0:17

And I hope you all understand that we're really upping our game here with the podcast because we aren't we are having, you know, celebrated authors. And that's right. So we're

0:26

here here and I'm here first on Jessup. Thank and he's author of numerous books, right. But one of the his most kind of recent book is embodied hope or theological meditation on pain and suffering, came out in 2017. And so that's what we're going to be highlighting on the show today, really talking with Kelly about pain and suffering, and how we can approach pain and suffering in a theological way. What to do and what not to do. So I really think you're gonna enjoy the show. And it's, it's gonna it's so timely with everything that's going on in 2020. Exactly. This should be a wonderful conversation.

1:12

Well, Kelly, thank you so much for being on the show. And we could maybe start out here by making a northern California connection. So you're actually Okay, you grew up in Lodi?

1:26

Yeah, born and raised, and Lodi, California and, miss. Now it's the Zinfandel capital of the world. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, go there. Yeah. Oh,

1:41

that's great. Well, it's good to have, you know, another Northern California in here. Even though you're coming to us from Georgia right now? That's right. Yep. I'm going to college. And I've just kind of recently been introduced to some of your writings. And I know you've written several things as I've been getting into your works. But it's really been influenced by your little book for new theologians. I'm maybe drawn to little books, right? When I'm thinking of my students, what I'm thinking my students and hey, what can you read? What will you actually read? But no, I love that. And as much as I would love to get into maybe the nerdy side of theology with you, which we might be able to sprinkle it in. On the show. You also most recently published a book called embodied hope or theological meditation on pain and suffering. And so want to kind of talk about that, you know, and especially, it's kind of interesting in in 2020, right now, I think there's there's enough pain and suffering that we can talk about. And I think it's so helpful to help us understand how theology can maybe help us talk about and experience pain and suffering and, and I think you do a great job in the book of talking about the limitations of theology or the limitations of trying to answer all of the questions on pain and suffering. But you lead us into a place of, of being able to experience that pain and suffering and experience in in a way where we can experience it with other Christians and with God. And you, you say in the beginning, you kind of talk about how sometimes within the church and sometimes within maybe even the evangelical community, there's this sense of trying to maybe gloss over pain and suffering, and we want to kind of jump to the promises or jump to the blessing. What do you think maybe that is for for maybe the evangelical community, specifically, why do we, why do we struggle sometimes to really deal with pain and suffering?

3:58

Yeah, those are those are great questions. I you know, I think for different reasons. I think, a large segment of kind of evangelicalism in America, we're kind of

4:15

been taught often at a subconscious level or, you know, inference level that you know, happy clappy everything's good. Be happy. Jesus is in control. That's great. Kind of, even though we wouldn't claim to be prosperity, gospel or victorious living but it is a Victorian, lik

Mark and Rex highlight two powerful Christian voices of the 20th century: Dorothy Day and Thomas Merton.

TRANSCRIPT

0:00

Welcome to Jessup think I'm your host Mark Moore, and your co host Rex Gurney. And Rex On today's episode, we're gonna highlight two American writers, okay, bankers, who also both happened to be Catholic, who have have made an impact on American culture. But maybe you're not as well known within the evangelical community. So we want to highlight them today. Okay.

0:27

And and these are two people that I for one had never heard of until I got into college, actually. And maybe even after that, I sort of grew up in a Catholic free world. And Ryan, I would never even know these people. I'm only to find out like, I found a whole lot of things out that they're like world famous, and I just had never heard of. So.

0:49

Yeah, so we're excited to dive into kind of a story of Dorothy Day, and Thomas Merton. So hope you enjoy.

1:02

Rex in 2015, Pope Francis actually became the first pontiff to address a joint session of the United States Congress, which I think is pretty cool. I remember that I remember watching him. And if you if you haven't read, I'm sure you probably have you may, you may be already like posted on the wall in your office, I don't know. But if you haven't read the full transcript of that speech is actually extremely powerful, and covers a lot of ground. And he in the speech, he highlights for Americans that he's been kind of deeply influenced by and who have influenced the world. And those four Americans are Abraham Lincoln. Check. Yeah, Martin Luther King, Jr. Check. Dorothy Day Who? Yeah, who I'm sure there were members of Congress are like, well, and Thomas Merton, huh. And, yeah, so it's really interesting that those are the four. Yeah, and exactly your response, right. It's like, we know, we know the story in the folklore of Abraham Lincoln. And, and we know MLK, and the work that he did, and, and Francis references both of them in their, in their messages, their messages of freedom. and and the the dream for justice, that MLK had that, that Francis said, He's still influenced by that dream, and is still driven by that dream. And then he, yeah, he's like, but I, but I also have to reference to maybe lesser known Americans, and endorsed today, so So today on the show, like you and I've kind of talked about this, we're really just want to kind of maybe let our listeners know, a little bit about Dorothy Day and Thomas Merton, because in the evangelical community that both you and I grew up in, it was kind of a, we didn't hear a lot about them. And maybe, particularly because they came from the Catholic tradition, and then there was there was this kind of division, that has been kind of narrowing, right, like, as has been lessening, which I think has been really good. And, and, and both of their stories are actually really interesting. They have some some unique similarities. Right. Right. And then they also have I mean, I think there's a lot of application for us. I definitely think that, Jeff, I want to kind of, kind of dive into maybe Dorothy Day first. Okay, when when did you first kind of maybe hear about Dorothy Day? Or how did that you

3:39

know, I sort of don't remember I, I want to say when I was like introduced to her writings, but honestly, you know, I'm probably thinking of Thomas Merton sort of Dorothy Day when I'm talking about writings I she wrote the long loneliness or a long biography, which is great and haunting died. Oh, yeah. It's amazing. And if you know about her life, which I'm sure we'll we'll talk about, you can see our literary associations Also, you can see right, we come up with the title like that, but yeah, I don't really remember I I remember knowing about Martin a little bit just, um, well, honestly, just when I started getting interested in, you know, the religious history of America. Yeah. And one thing I do when I, when I teach a course,

Derek Martin, director of the Theatre program at Jessup, joins Mark and Rex to discuss the precarious landscape of Christian aesthetics. In other words, the trio discusses why sometimes Christians make bad art.

TRANSCRIPT

0:03

Welcome to Jessup think I'm your host, Mark Moore and your co host, Rex Gurney. And Rex on the show today, we have Derrick Martin, kind of the head of our theater program here Jessup. Back on the show, he's a good friend of the show and our critic extraordinary Exactly. And we're going to be talking about Christian aesthetics. Right. And that by aesthetics, we mean, how you appreciate art, and appreciate beauty, appreciate truth. And we're going to be looking at kind of maybe this disparity sometimes between Christian art, and what some people would just call regular art. And as if there's some distinction Exactly. And so we kind of want to explore that, and explore some ways as Christians that we can, that we can be critical, and we can engage. But we can also enjoy art. I think it'll be a great conversation. Hope you enjoy.

1:02

Alright, Rex and Derek. So there was a movie that recently came out, I think it was kind of released kind of, it's kind of been hitting the kind of festival. I haven't seen it in the multiplex yet. No definitely hasn't been in the multiplex yet. Haven't haven't seen at least around here, haven't seen around here maybe have to drive over to San Francisco to see it. But it is a movie is called faith based the movie. And it is a spoof, or a parody on Christian films, made by to two actors, wrote it, Luke Barnett, and then Tanner Thomason, and it is it kind of follows them. And it actually has some, some pretty big star, some comedians in it, Margaret chosen it. And it follows them they want to get in the movie business, but they just been having flop after flop. And then they realize, or they get instruction actually from I think Jason Alexander. So from Seinfeld, fame, another, he gives them the idea that they could make a faith based film, because even if it's a terrible movie, it'll still Christians will still buy it. So that's kind of the whole premise of and then the movie they create is just outlandish. And it kind of has all of these elements that, but it's a really interesting critique of kind of Christian film. And I think we could even pull it back and kind of Christian art, you know, because it's kind of this idea that, hey, even if it's bad art, Christians will still buy exactly a commentary on whether it's, it's, you know, fair or unfair about Christian taste,

2:49

right. And the interesting thing about that whole thing is that we I mean, just from a marketing standpoint, you know, every like, I don't know, 10 years or so Hollywood, discovers that Christians go to the movies, right? Yeah. And then they forget about it. And then about 10 years later, they'll they'll discover it again. And so we'll, you know, there'll be stuff that's marketed to us, right, because we're a demographic and we are a pound demographic. Right. You know, it's kind of hard to be thought of as a interest group and a demographic I guess we are.

3:20

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that the studios have started to come up with face faith based sections of their studios, because the demographic has deep pockets and actually can fund entire studio. Right. So that's kind of an interesting, there is a very much an economic piece at play.

3:41

Yeah. And it's kind of and that's where I think this movie kind of highlights both of those. Exactly. They want to make a buck. Yeah, there's there's a economic side of it. But then it also seems to highlight and that's kind of what we want to talk today about, you know, in an episode, we kind of want to look at Christian aesthetics, right, like, what, what, what makes good art what, what makes, or how can we approach kind of aesthetic appreciation? And and the question seems to be at least within, you know, the last may

New York Times' Bestselling author, Jemar Tisby, joins Mark and Rex to discuss his book The Color of Compromise: The Truth about the American Church's Complicity in Racism.

TRANSCRIPT

0:02

Welcome to Jessup think I'm your host Mark Moore, and your co host Rex Gurney. And on the show today, we are excited to have new york time best selling author jemar tisby. This is the first time we've had a New York Times bestselling authors. First time. Yeah. We have we have last time, but the first time but Jemar is the author of the color of compromise the truth about the American churches complicity and racism and wrecks This is really a show that is continuing the conversation right? on race and racism in America and in the church. And what is our role to, to combat that racism and and to choose another way, and Jim Marrs book and this this conversation, I think is so important for us to continue to have, he takes a historical look at how the church has has either been silently involved or overtly. And it's a look that we have to take to be able to move forward.

1:08

Hey, Tamara, thank you so much for joining us on the show. And excited to have you and I thought we start with a little bit of common ground. I was reading your bio. So you're born and raised kind of in the Chicago area.

1:21

That's right. north of Chicago,

1:23

north of Chicago and I and then you did your undergrad at Notre Dame go Irish? Yes, I did. There we go. So I was born and raised in Indiana. Okay, and so she Deanna though I think Yeah, very small town. But I did I did make the pilgrimage up to Notre Dame. And and we'd we went there a couple times on game day, not never inside, but just just hanging out outside. And well, it

1:51

is gorgeous here. So even going out there is Yeah. What did you do one time?

1:57

It really is the cameras beautiful. One time I was there. And somehow the doors were open. And I walked down. I was with my soccer team actually in high school. And we walked down onto the football field, and just started running around and basically acting like Rudy got kicked out by security.

2:18

Oh, that's great. I don't think I've ever been on the grass of the field. So you had a deeper football experience was that I did. Although I agreed to go I counted it up one time. And between undergrad and the year after I graduated, I got to go to 24 straight home games. Oh, wow. Yeah. I'm from the Mexico. So I have absolutely no.

2:44

That's true. That's true. pretty helpful on there. But it's good. Good to have another, you know, Irish fan on the show. Now you're currently down in the Mississippi River Delta. You're on the Arkansas side.

2:59

That's right. That's right. It's always using two people. I mean, the language is confusing, because it's called the Mississippi Delta. And then of course, people think of the state, but it's really about the river. And then right, it spans Tennessee, Arkansas, Mississippi, Louisiana. So I always have to specify I'm on the Arkansas side of the river, but the delta is a region and a culture all to itself. It really obeys no state boundaries. Yeah,

3:29

that's very true. Well, I must be a little precarious being a Notre Dame fan.

3:37

sec country? Yes. Yeah. We were absolutely passionate about football at Notre Dame. And but coming down to the SEC. Wow. Wow. Another World. It is another world. It's been very interesting. Especially because I have gone to school in Mississippi. And there was a time a few years back when Mississippi State and the University of Mississippi were both ranked. Right, right. Yeah. I mean, heads were exploding. People were walking on air for that couple of weeks. But most of the time, it's not. It's not that story of winning. It's been a nice time since then.

4:21

That's the truth. Well, I'm excited to kind of get into your book, The color of compromise the truth about American churches, complicity in racism. And for me

Dr. David VanDrunen from Westminster Seminary California joins Mark and Rex to discuss his recent book, Politics after Christendom.

TRANSCRIPT

0:01

Welcome to Jessup think I'm your host Mark Moore, and your co host, Rex Gurney. And Rex we have on the show today, Dr. David VanDrunen. He's the Robert B strumble, Associate Professor of systematic theology and Christian ethics at Westminster Seminary in Southern California. And he's on the show to talk to us today about his new book, politics after Christendom.

0:25

And I think we will all find this a fascinating conversation. He has a lot of really interesting things to say.

0:32

Yeah, so we hope you enjoy the show. Well, Dr. VanDrunen and it really is a pleasure to have you on the episode. I'm so excited to talk about this topic. I think it's so important, especially maybe for this year, being an election year. And just understanding politics and Christian life, understanding our role in as the church in politics. And and we're here to kind of talk about your new book, politics after Christendom that was put out by Zondervan academic. So we want to give a shout out to zahner unacademic for connecting us, and for sending us a copy to be able to dive into. And even with that title, it really caught my eye. And one of the reasons why I reached out to you is that idea of politics, after Christendom and so some people may have a little bit of question of what what do you mean by Christendom? So can we start maybe there by by defining Christendom, as we kind of move into what what it looks like to have to for politics after that?

1:44

Yeah, sure. That's a I think that is a good place to start. Because when when you hear the word, Christendom, people don't always use it in the same way. So when I use that, in the book, I'm referring to this, you might say this long experience or experiment, primarily in European countries that lasted really from the very early Middle Ages, until really, a within the last few centuries, in which it was generally regarded that these companies societies were regarded as holistically integrated Christian communities. So just for some historical perspective, of course, when, when the gospel was first proclaimed, after after Christ's death and resurrection, in the Roman Empire, the the early Christian church was this tiny minority. They faced a lot of opposition and persecution from the authorities. The Roman Empire was officially pagan, you might say they had their gods that they worshipped. And it was not comfortable for those who didn't want to worship those gods. And yet, after a few centuries, you might say, the tide began to turn, the Roman emperors who were who began to profess the name of Christ, and the Roman Empire became officially Christian. And it wasn't as though church and state became indistinguishable or something. There were still distinctions between church and state, and families and universities and trade associations since but at the same time, it was understood that all of these were united by a common Christian profession. And, and as part of that, the understanding was is that the civil authorities would be supporting in favoring the one true church as that was understood, and that they would punish heresies and blasphemies. And those who were of other religions, or who had believed in versions of Christianity that didn't fit the prevailing model, there really wasn't a place for them in these societies, or else they could exist with pretty extreme hardships. And that was really the kind of the kind of mindset that that prevailed for really well over 1000 years. And it was really only until what we would call the the modern era, that opinions and practices began to change. And so you know, now we find ourselves in communities that used to be considered part of Christendom in which it's no longer understood that these are Christian holistically, Christian societies, right? It's no longer assumed that bit

Musical guest Timothy John Stafford joins Mark to talk about his most recent EP Letters from Lancaster Prison. On the album Tim tells the stories of five different inmates serving a life sentence without parole. The songs cover themes of hope, redemption, justice, and grace.

TRANSCRIPT

0:09

Welcome to Jessup think I'm your host Mark Moore. And excited on the show today we have our very first musical guest Timothy john Stafford. Welcome to the show, Tim, thank you very much for having me in here. And I'm really excited because I think as our first musical guests that really like taking us up as a podcast like another notch Yeah,

0:28

I feel like that may be overselling me. Hey, I'm gonna do my part.

0:35

You're a musical guest you have an album we're gonna talk about Yeah, now I'm not overselling anything you know, and and you're also the host or co host of Vox podcast with Mike Geary.

0:46

Yeah, I got hired on as the producer of that just trying to clean it up and edit the episodes and whatnot. And then slowly just got roped at work

0:56

your way into co hosts? Yeah. How long is that podcasts been going on?

1:00

I think that podcast has been on for three and a half years ish. somewhere around there. Yeah, we're like 230 200 I think this week's episode was 229.

1:11

That's like 20 years in dog years. Old her podcast years. That's good. Well, I like that. I like working your way in as producer. I did that in college. I just started playing, doing sound for a band. And then one year their bass player never came back. And I was like, I'm like, yeah, just where the notes again. Just point to him. And

1:33

I'll play him on a YouTube story too. Like Bono was the he was like their manager. He wanted to be the band super bad. And they kept giving him different roles. Yeah. Finally, there's like, Alright, man. Fine. Fine. You can work down there.

1:46

I guess so. Yeah. No. And they were probably like, what? 15 years old when they very not not a bad gig. You know, your first job ever.

1:55

And dog ears are like a million.

1:57

Yes. That is the truth and still going. So they are still going though going? Well, what are your most recent EP is is entitled letters from Lancaster prison. Yeah. And I'm really intrigued by just the story behind that album. How did that album kind of come about? And maybe your connection with Lancaster prison?

2:16

Yeah. So a couple years ago, I was getting my master's degree. So I could come and teach at a prestigious institutions such as William Jessup,

2:26

right? Yeah, we failed to mention you also teach some English class right?

2:29

I am a pretty sound. Still sounds very weird to say that. But my professor, I am one who professors? Yeah. You Professor English. Yeah. Not well. But during my master's degree program, I took a class that dealt with so Lancaster prison. I went to Cal State LA, okay, down in Los Angeles. And we won't hold that against you. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, I was the odd one out. All my old enemy teams that we grew up with sports wise, are all la team. Yeah, it was awkward. But Cal State LA has one of the only accredited programs in a prison system in the state of California. Oh, wow. And it got founded by the professor there who's now one of my good friends. And he basically was going into the prison started with him just going in and teaching a few classes in the prison. And then he just had worked it up to the state level to get it actually accredited. So they It was a bunch of men, of course, serving life without parole. Okay. And they, they earned the right through kind of just being, you know, not getting involved in violence or drugs or anything in the prison for like, most of them had been like, 10 years. I mean, they've been in there. All these guys have been there for a very long time. Yeah. And like, for example, one of the guys is the last he actually just got out, but he was the one of the last incarcerated men f

Dr. Michael McGrann, chair of Jessup's Institute of Biodiveristy and the Environment, joins Mark and Rex for part two of their series on theology and environmentalism. Dr. McGrann helps them understand how science and faith teach us the interdependence of all creation which provides a foundation to build an environmental ethic.

TRANSCRIPT

0:00

Welcome to Jessup think I'm your host Mark Moore and your co host Rex Gurney. And Rex today on the show, we have a scientist on the shining. On the nose with john Hess. We have Dr. Michael mcgrann. He's the chair of the Institute for biodiversity in the environment here at Jessup and associate professor. And he's coming on for part two of our conversation had a theologian on theologian we're trying to kind to cover our bases. That's right. And we're looking at how theology influences our environmental ethic, or at least how our theology should influence our environmental ethic. I think you're gonna like where the show head last time we were on the end of the story, this time we look at the beginning of the story and how that affects our role in being stewards and caretakers of this earth. We try to cover all the bases Jessup things.

0:55

All right, Michael. Well, thank you for being on the show. First time on the show. Yeah. And we're excited to have you Rex. Here's got some some questions he's gonna pepper you with. So all right. It's good to have a scientist on the show. This is

1:09

finally some of the notes for the

1:12

week. Oh, yeah. All these Biblical Studies theology. Get your finger to get your hands in the dirt.

1:20

Yep, I get my hands dirty. My boots dirty. Yeah, exactly. That's

1:23

great. And this is, this is kind of our follow up. Right. So it's part two to kind of this idea of, of how theology affects our environmental ethic. Right, you know, and kind of in last episode, we had Dr. Matt gotcha on kind of New Testament and theologian, and he's worked with you on the environmental ethics class, and even some environmental ethics committee are in that and so we knew we wanted to have you on as a voice to kind of help us maybe see the conversation to from a different light brother from the lens of a scientist. We're multidisciplinary heroes. Yeah, all good education. Exactly. That's right. podcast me and by as right. And so we kind of looked at, at how theology affects our environment, I think, but we mostly looked at kind of eschatology, right, so our interpretation of the end of the story. Yeah. And in my conversation with you, I know we've talked a lot about then origins, right, right, how the story began. And something we we said last on the last episode, was that how you interpret the beginning of the story and how you interpret the end of the story really affects how you live out the story.

2:36

Right? I would say that, yeah, perhaps your last conversation, you're focusing at the end of the story, but really, in our environmental ethic is weaved throughout all of Scripture, the entire story, right? Yeah, that's starting starting at the beginning. With Genesis, and I think, I think, you know, having, or coming to terms with origins as a scientist, I think is essential to doing good science, especially as an ecologist, as an environmental scientist, as a biologist, but also as a believer in the Bible as a follower of Jesus, to come to terms with, you know, an interpretation of Genesis that frees me up as a scientist to do the science, the science that impacts decision making, and to follow the science wherever it may lead, because that's what science does. That's what science does. Right? Science is supposed to be an objective process. Yeah. And revisionary based form of learning and don't give you just right, or deducted from there. Yes, yeah.

3:46

Yeah. Well, in the in the, you've highlighted this before, to that revisionary aspect of science, right there. Science is not, is not coming in and saying this is maybe the only way, but

Dr. Meghan McMahonJohnson rejoins Mark and Rex to further discuss issues of race and equality. The three look to identify ways forward to speak out against racism and inequality.

TRANSCRIPT

0:02

Welcome to Jessup think I'm your host Mark Moore. On today's episode, we are rejoined by Dr. Megan McMahon Johnson to further our conversation on race, the church and equality, we have so much to learn, and so far to go. But it's a journey we must take. Hope you enjoy the show. Hope it causes you to think more deeply about these issues.

0:31

All right, Megan, and Rex who want to continue our conversation and kind of continue this look at race in America injustice, inequality, and specifically in the church? And that Jessup you know, and I think framing today's conversation through the lens of what are ways that we can move forward in this conversation? You know, we've, we've kind of talked a lot about some different areas, we've we've looked back at Dr. King and his letter from Birmingham Jail, and which I think, for me is just again, been so helpful in framing how we can view it now particularly in the church. And I've just been doing a you know, kind of a deep dive into the 1960s, particularly kind of that 63 to 68. So, Rex, oh, you know, bring some history lessons, and then you can correct me today.

1:28

Since I'm by far the oldest person I think. Actually, I actually remember some of that. Yeah, you have first hand knowledge. I remember being in elementary school and having to close the windows on our bus, because of the tear gas in the streets because of slam stations and stuff. Oh, wow. Yeah. Where were you at? And so I was in New Mexico. Yes. New Mexico. Yeah. And in Albuquerque, and yeah. I mean, we had our own, you know, race riots there. I mean, honestly, we did. And I remember going downtown after one of them, because everybody did just to see the damage. And honestly, it's, you know, sort of voyeurism, I guess, right? Yeah. But I remember going down Central Avenue in Albuquerque. This is when I'm in elementary school, actually. And seeing every window smashed out and having the National Guard on the street, you know, and as a kid, you know, seeing soldiers in their jeeps this would be for Humvees, this jeeps? I mean, we're surprising. They're not like riding donkeys are curious. Anyway, long ago. But I do remember just being, you know, with their 50 caliber machine, I don't know if they were loaded or not, but they were riding around, it was just, gosh, oh my god. Wow. And so, yeah, the 60s were something they really were,

2:45

as a truth. And, and I think we can, for me why I've been kind of diving into that, because it's like, Man, what are the lessons we didn't learn at that time, that we can hopefully 60 years later, Start to begin to learn, you know, and, and, and that way, you have the luxury of looking back and be like, wow, this is these are key areas where we missed the conversation? Because it seems to be I mean, there's been kind of these obviously, pivotal moments, right? I mean, you have emancipation in the late 60s of the 1800s. Right? And we know that that didn't solve the problem. Right? It's it solved one of the problems. But it didn't solve and that's, that's one of the things that's been interesting to me. I've been reading a book by Mark Noll. That is God and race in American politics. I actually have that book in my actually have an amazing shelf. There we go. And it's it has been very fascinating. He kind of goes all the way back to kind of the Civil War era and the Reconstruction Era and moving forward. And he made a connection for me and a distinction that I think were extremely helpful. There we go. If you were if you podcast listeners could see us right now. Hold up that but but he made, he made the connection, and a distinction that I think was pretty helpful. This. For one, it was a distinction between the slavery in the New Testament and the the transatlantic slave trade.

Dr. Meghan McMahon Johnson joins Mark and Rex to discuss the current unrest in America regarding racial injustice. The Church has much to learn from King's prophetic and profound "Letter from Birmingham Jail".

TRANSCRIPT

0:02

Welcome to Jessup think I'm your host Mark Moore, and I'm your co host Rex Gurney. In today's episode, we'll explore the current unrest in America concerning racial injustice and inequality. And the conversation will be framed by Dr. King's profound and prophetic letter from a Birmingham Jail. The church in the white church most explicitly has so much to learn from his wisdom and insight. We're joined by Dr. Megan McMahon Johnson, who's our Director of Student care here at Jessup. And we hope you enjoy the sale. We hope it challenges you to think more deeply about issues of race in the church's response.

0:49

All right, well, we've we've got a pretty easy topic today, we can just smooth sailing through this one. It's clear in our world today, and particularly our nation, that we need help. We need healing. We need wisdom. We need guidance, guidance. And there's been so many responses to kind of the social unrest and the protests that have happened over the last couple of weeks. And some of the responses have been really helpful, and really wise, and others, not so much. And, and so we want to kind of talk about today, like how the church has been responding. And, and for me, considering some of the churches, some of the statements that I've heard from the church recently, particularly the white church, I was drawn back to Dr. King's letter from a Birmingham Jail. And I had to I had to remind myself that while King is praised now, he wasn't always praised by the church. And in the 60s, wasn't always well received, was misunderstood was misquoted. And, and I needed to kind of remind myself of that, you know, and so I kinda was just doing some research on, on how particularly how the white church responded to King during his, during his work for, for civil rights. And I was pretty shocked by reading the letter from Birmingham jail again, through the lens of our current situation, how timely it was, and how if you didn't know, that was written in April of 1963, you were thought he wrote it, in May of

2:45

a lot of the rhetoric, a lot of the rhetoric has not changed at all, at all, actually, Ryan, and especially the rhetoric that he was pushing up against hasn't.

2:53

Right. Yeah. And and it's sadly that case, you know, that we haven't maybe learned from, from our mistakes, learn from our Centurion, Rex, I know, we've talked about this a lot, like has a history professor, this is our chance to, to be able to look back at history and and really learn or relearn these things are attempt to learn.

3:20

Yeah, I actually have, we may not want to look back of that much right history, because it actually hasn't been that good with us. I mean, we might as well just sort of admit it. I am. Yeah, that's so true. Yeah. You know, I grew up into domination. And, you know, I'm grateful for the denomination I grew up in. That's the Southern Baptist Convention. You know, which is sort of like, I don't know, the Catholic Church of the south or something. You know, it is, um, you know, the very fact that that denomination exists, is because of slavery. And because of basically, the, the Southern Baptist wanted to appoint slaveholders, missionaries. And the Baptist in the north said, No way. And the Baptist in the south just went their own way, and then became this huge thing. That's sort of born literally in in racism. And And honestly, it's just true. And even until the early 60s, if you were African American, and you tried to go to First Baptist Church of I don't know, you know, almost anywhere in the south. Yeah. And tried to enter you would be ushered out by by the white deacons and the white ushers and told that you are not welcome. And that's not that long ago. In fact, that's that's kind of al

Dr. Matt Godshall joins Mark and Rex to explore the important topic of how theology positively or negatively affects our view of environmental ethics.

TRANSCRIPT

0:01

Welcome to Jessup think I'm your host, Mark Moore, and I'm your co host Rex Gurney. I'm Rex today on the podcast, we're excited to have a conversation about something I think is really important. And it has theological implications and practical implications. We're going to be looking at how our theology affects our practice, specifically, our view on environmentalism.

0:23

And it's an important topic to talk about. It really is, and I think we have a wonderful guest this morning that will help us process

0:32

renew we, Professor Matt Godshall has been on the show a few times press are New Testament, teaches an environmental ethics class here at Jessup. And so we're excited to have this conversation. hope you tune in.

0:53

Well, today's episode, we're going to look at the idea of how theology affects our practice. And particularly, I think we want to zoom in on how theology maybe even particularly, eschatology, which is just a fancy way of saying how you viewed the end times are the end of the world as we know it. How your eschatology I'm feeling fine. Yeah, that's good. That's a good reference. How your eschatology affects how you view the environment, and maybe how that that position you take on care of the environment, and just environmental ethic issues in general. And, Rex, I know that this issue has been really kind of big in your life and gun owner, you deal with it a lot in classes, so kind of throw the ball to you. First on, we also have Matt Gaucho with us. Professor of New Testament, we decided we need an expert. That's right. He also teaches a class on environmental ethics for Jessup. And so we're excited to have you on the show again, man. I mean, you're a definite friend of the show. And I am excited to say like it might happen t shirts are in the world brand of the show t shirts are in the works. They're gonna be at a local Walmart near you. Coming soon, find a Walmart yeah. Oh, yeah, exactly. We can bring in, but yeah, no, Rex, we'll start with you. Because it kind of is

2:25

so on your heart. Um, I mean, the whole issue and actually have something in front of me right now. This is no arms and it will like Christian perspective class. One thing we do is kind of do a theology once over just to talk about what most Christians most of the time, most places have thought about God and mankind and redemption and soteriology and eschatology, that big word, but not to try to, you know, just go over doctrine and teach doctrine, but just to show how that actually has. And I don't like this term, but I don't know of another term, sort of a cash value, okay, in how you live your life and how you look at things, how it affects your worldview, right. And so we'll talk about eschatology, and how your view of in times or how that impacts contemporary history, and what's going on around you really can affect some things like who you vote for, what you vote for, what policies you vote for, even when you don't think about it deliberatively it's sort of theology of the gut. And I just try to get students to make a connection between those things, but it also affects the environment. So for example, and I'll just give one I have had relatives and they're actually not in this place anymore. So they have I believe grown in this area, right. But but for a while they they refuse to recycle. And they actually had sort of a almost a religious Christian reason for not right and right as they were dedicated to a pre millennial dispensational view of in times. And so, you know, the world's going to hell in a handbasket. That's just the way it is. You can read it and Daniel and Revelation, right, and so since we're not going to be around much anymore, and since there's nothing we can do to positively impact the future, because I think I a