Mark and Rex finish out Season 2 strong with a recap of a year like no other and a look toward the vast possibilities of the future.

TRANSCRIPT

0:01

Welcome to Jessup think I'm your host, Mark Moore and your co host Rex Gurney on racks we have come to the end of a season. So we're finishing up season two. And so on today's episode, it's just you and I, and we're gonna kind of take a look back at the year. And obviously, it's been a year that comes along, you know, once in a generation, right, yeah. And we really need to process that. And also, we're going to look at, what will it look like for us to move forward, to move forward. And to understand the realities that happen in 2020. I understand where God is calling us.

0:42

And there's one thing I really want our listening audience out there to understand that when Mark and I talked about end of the season, it doesn't mean we'll never be back again. I know that every time the girlfriend broke up with, she always said, Rex, this is the end of the season. And there was no season two. So we are actually going to be back we

1:01

can promise right we probably will be a season unless we both get run over by a bus. That's true. Then there will be a season three,

1:08

there will be a season three. So we hope you enjoy this recap of season two and a look back at 2020. Well, Rex, this says definitely been

1:26

a year it has been quite a year. I don't think any of us anticipated what kind of year it was going to be even right even the first few episodes that I joined in the in the podcast. Yeah, it's not at the beginning, but close to the beginning.

1:39

Right. Well, yeah, I was gonna give a little a little bit. Okay. Okay. Okay. So with with just I think we're, we're now moving into what we're gonna want to look at as dedicated seasons. But our first we're closing in on 70 episodes. Wow. 70 070 they still let us do that hang? No, I don't I you know, I think we're still hiding under there. But it's 70 episodes are first episode aired on January 15 2019. Oh, wow. 2019. Well, over two years ago, yeah. So a little over two years, which is

2:16

wild. Hell might have been in like, a decade or an epoch or era ago.

2:22

Since then. Right. Exactly. And, and Rex, you were actually a guest on the show. Okay, just a guest in late February. What were we talking? We talked about Protestantism, types of history of jellicle history of that. Yeah. So we kind of highlighted the, you know, in some ways, the history of the evangelical church. And, and, and that's maybe, you know, we had obviously, we were friends and talked before, and maybe when with that episode, I was like, you know, this would be great having Rex as a regular voice. So you joined, I asked you and you graciously accepted, and you joined as a co host in May. Okay. In May. And in that first episode, you were on was actually entitled, Vietnam, the monkeys, and classic. And we had Derek Martin or theater director, we're all over the place. Yeah, exactly. We've covered we've covered all of our bases, okay. And we range from, you know, when people ask, like, Hey, what's the podcast about? Like, what's a little bit about everything having to do with the spiritual life? The understanding, you know, how your Christianity up applies to the rest of the world, how you view the arts, we're looking at spiritual disciplines and spiritual practices, right, you know, and that's something that's near and dear to both of our hearts. And so and then some different expressions of the Christian faith. Yes, exactly.

3:54

Celtic spirituality, a little bit on orthodoxy.

3:57

Right. Right. And, and we were able to then kind of over 2020 start to expand. Right. And, and we'll talk about that, you know, we were able to kind of reach out to authors and professors, and academics throughout the US. And even we, we went International, by the times, right, this season was over, by the time when seaso

Jessup President John Jackson and noted social commentator and teacher Ed Stetzer join the show to discuss the state of the Church as we move forward from 2020.

TRANSCRIPT

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Welcome to Jessup think I'm your host, Mark Moore. And our guests on the show today are dr. john Jackson, the president of William Jessup University, and Dr. Ed stetzer. Dr. stetzer, is a professor and Dean at Wheaton College, where he also serves as the executive director of the Billy Graham center. We are really excited to have him on the show, and we're going to be looking at the church post 2020, particularly how we move forward. Enjoy the show. JOHN, and Ed, thank you so much for joining us on the show calls you john. Dr. Jackson,

0:41

he does but the doctor thing we can just dispense with it. Don't

0:44

worry, it is in the introduction. Okay. So the introduction has already happened. You don't even know what happened. And it is great to have president of William Jessup University, Dr. JOHN Jack's doctor,

0:57

I told you, your doctor. He's got. He has many leather books and the smells of rich mahogany. don't depend on me though, to deliver your baby or do surgery.

1:05

That's exactly right. airplane, if someone says a doctor on board, yes.

1:09

My daughter's once said, so you're a doctor. But you don't really help people. Like Well, I help people. It was too late, though they were getting moving on. We just jumped on your introduction. Sorry about that, hey,

1:19

it's no problem. It's no problem. It's free flowing. Here it is. I feel I feel the flow. And we're I'm I am just excited to have you on the show to really talk about, I think, a really important topic and one that church leaders across America and across the world are asking right now. And that's how do we move forward? How are we coming out of a crazy year, but but I agree with you and on points that you've made? This isn't an anomaly, right? 2020 is not an anomaly.

1:45

It's anyways, the new normal, I mean, maybe not with the pandemic part. But gives I think, ultimately, that's that's waning. We hope we don't know about the variants. But you know, but that's waning, and we've been through I don't have any of your account, you know, 20 plus pandemics since the beginning of the church. So pandemics and the British sweats isn't around anymore. We're not you know, we're not dealing with you know, the black plague. So pandemics em, but I think the cultural tumult and turbulence that we saw in 2020, if it was just a pandemic, but what just pandemic it was, you know, political division, you gotta remember, you know, and the strength in the, in the course of the pandemic, before the, like, weeks before the pandemic, and in during the pandemic, we had to impeachments. So we don't realize it just I mean, wow. And then we had, you know, racial injustice on display, then we had unrest in the cities. We had. We had economic I mean, that April and May last year. I mean, I don't know about you, but everyone's freaking out budget wise.

2:41

Well, absolutely. And don't you think that Ed, we kind of have this on historical I think a lot of times, we're all theological, but we're also all historical to kind of go like God, yeah. Right. So

2:52

you know, I remember like, when I was at moody church, I just finished up I was finishing up the interim pastor at moody church on Easter is Easter 2020, the rooms empty, right, because everything's shut down. I think everyone was shut down then right? There was like, Yeah, but then at that time, so I think 6% of churches did shut down. We did a survey later. So we're standing up there, cuz there's 3000 3750 empty seats in the heart. And the question was, at the time, were we allowed to go and fell into the film right here, we an essential service, and I actually had a recipe. And so I went down, and we did that. And but then it kind of struck me that 100 years earlier, yeah, the pastor of moody ch

Rex and Mark discuss the false self in regards to the spiritual life and identity. Relying on the wisdom of Merton and Nouwen, they unpack how we construct a false self and how to discover our true identity in Christ.

TRANSCRIPT

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Welcome to Jessup think I'm your host Mark Moore and your co host Rex Gurney. And on the show today, Rex, we're going to talk about the false self and the true self, which is probably actually a good topic because I worked really hard and bringing my false self in here.

0:14

Yes, we're gonna do I was hoping to interview your false self today. And that way we can hopefully get to the true self Okay, behind there the truth self that finds its identity in God,

0:26

the issue is, I don't know what voices is it is really connected to the false self or the true self actually, well, what

0:31

we're gonna discover that today, and and our hope for this episode is for pre listeners, that you can start to grasp these concepts as a concept in the spiritual life. And how we so easily build a life around a false self, that finds identity wrapped up in in everything society says you should be and Mrs. identity in Christ, and who we really are and who we've been called to be. So we hope you enjoy the show and get a lot out of it.

1:12

All right, Rex, we're, we're definitely are we talking to the real Rex or the false? You

1:17

know, I'm already confused. Actually. I'm hoping that by the end of this podcast, through, you know, either just self talk or perhaps seeing right to lead from you to figure out what's what's up

1:30

basically a counseling session. Okay, so so listeners, you're, you're invited into this counseling session, but we want to Dr. Mark, and we want to talk about this concepts within the spiritual life of the false self and the true self. What does that language come from Mark? And that language, really, for me kind of comes from two riders that we've talked a lot about on the show, Thomas Merton and Henry now, the language itself has a background in psychoanalysis, right, or psychology. And that's really I think, where Merton and now in our are not stealing, but maybe borrowing the terms are they're definitely re directing them. It's kind of interesting in the 60s, which both Merton and now and would have been writing heavily in the 60s, in the 60s in psychoanalysis, false self and true self. There's kind of this movement by a professor and a psychologist named Winnicott that our our false self was the self that that placated to everyone else around them like placated to our parents placated to teachers, whatever expectation Yeah, and just people we want the right honor form to those. And our true self was that kind of an unrestrained self, the self that wanted to scream when it wanted to. So

2:55

the wild man would be my true self and right, complacent Rex

2:58

would be my wanting to fight when I wanted to bite, you know, one two punch. And so it's kind of interesting, that it's it put this position on your true self is that selfie? You know, society has been telling you to, to contain

3:14

it historically. I mean, you can actually look at that philosophically, because right, I think a lot of the philosophically speaking, the whole romantic movement was sort of like that, like, you know, Rousseau and the noble savage and civilization has corrupted us. So really, right, you know, and then that sort of find yourself wild man movement, which actually impacted even some churches to where Oh, yeah, really, we all have to go out and put more paint on our faces, and do all sorts of politically incorrect things in order to, right somehow connect with that with, interestingly enough, I would say connect with someone else's expectation of a false,

3:53

right. Yeah, someone else's vision of Riot should be exactly. And yeah, and that's what was they're saying. So I think Merton and now when took that, took that terminology, and said, Well, that doesn't see

Dr. Jack Levison from Perkins School of Theology explores the Holy Spirit in the Gospels from his new book An Unconventional God: The Spirit According to Jesus.

TRANSCRIPT

0:01

Welcome to Jessup think I'm your host Mark Moore, and your co host Rex Gurney. And today on the show, we're excited to have another amazing author. It's been great being able to get connected to of the scholars and authors. We have jack Levison, who is the WSJ, a power professor of Old Testament interpretation and biblical Hebrew, have Perkins School of Theology, Southern Methodist University

0:27

in Dallas, Texas, and we'll see what kind of accent he has once he

0:30

Yeah, exactly. And his scholarship has focused on the Holy Spirit's both Old Testament references, Pauline pneumatology, and his current book is an unconventional God, the spirit, according to Jesus gonna look at the Spirit through the lens of the four Gospels. And it's a really amazing book and kind of a powerful view of the spirit in the gospels, and how it's connected to the Old Testament. Yeah, this promises to be a really, really good conversation.

1:09

We'd love to kind of hear a little bit more of for our listeners hear a little bit more your backstory jack of how, how you kind of got to where you are now and maybe even got into writing about the Holy Spirit and kind of your scholarship with the Holy Spirit.

1:27

So I'm 64. That'll take the whole time. The abbreviated version, how long it takes you you never asked an academic for the abbreviated version. That's true. That's true. Okay, so

1:42

I grew up on Long Island in the Christian churches in the restoration movement. And I at 12, I was baptized and at 15, I felt I was at church camp, this little plywood camp up in the Catskills, and I really felt called to Christian ministry. So I went up. And I was really trying to decide on where to go to college and ended up the looking my sister had gotten an application to Wheaton College in the days when you had paper applications. And she didn't fill it out. So I did. So I simply print out this crumpled old application and send it off to Wheaton. And during my first year, at Wheaton, I had a Greek teacher called Jerry Hawthorne. And he walked into the class the very first day, and put his briefcase on the desk. And then he just without saying a word wrote on the board, a bunch of Greek. And he said, Who knows what this means, since it was Greek one, none of us knew what it meant. And he, he said, Oh, this is Philippians 413. Who knows what this means. And of course, since it was Wheaton College, every other student's hand went up, they all for 13. I could do all things through Christ who strengthens me. And he said, Is that true? Can you pass a chemistry exam through Christ who strengthens you? It's not true. And then he began to tell us I like the today's English version, I can I have strength for anything through the one who gives me power. And he started talking about different ways of translating the Bible translation equivalent versus word for word. And I think I had a Wesleyan experience. Yeah, having my heart strangely worn in the fourth, third or fourth floor of Blanchard Hall on the Wheaton College campus. And then Jerry took me under his wing and I became his teaching assistant. I taught a course or two for him when he was doing something else. And then I went off to Cambridge, and then to Duke for my PhD, where I met an absolutely wonderful young woman called Priscilla Pope. There's a whole story with that one. And then Jerry, actually, for two summers, I taught his Wheaton College summer classes in Greek. So basically, I really trace my deep love of being a professor to my freshman year, the first day of my Greek class, but then it developed and I ended up marrying a woman who was it sort of changed my restoration background as a Methodist minister. And then the rest is history as they say,

4:27

what what moved you towards H

Dr. Dorothy Lee joins show from down under to talk about her new book The Ministry of Women in the New Testament.

TRANSCRIPT

0:01

Welcome to Jessup think I'm your host Mark Moore and your co host Rex Gurney. And our guest on the show today is the Reverend canon Dorothy Lee. She's the Stewart research professor of New Testament at Trinity College, University of divinity in Melbourne, Australia.

0:19

And actually, this is going to be a first on two fronts for the jest of things podcast because number one is our first international broadcast. And this is the first broadcast where we are actually peering into the future because the voice you are hearing is one day ahead of us right now. Yes,

0:36

kind of kooky. Exactly. She's gonna tell us the future. And Dorothy is an Anglican priest in the Diocese of Melbourne, associated with St. Mary's, North Melbourne, a canon of St. Paul's Cathedral, and of Holy Trinity Cathedral, and a fellow of the Australian Academy of the humanities. her new book is entitled The Ministry of women in the New Testament, reclaiming the biblical vision for church leadership. We really hope you enjoy the show.

1:14

Well, thank you so much for joining us. All the way from Australia. So you are you our first international guest on the podcast. Wow. So let's so it is it is that says award worthy, I think award worthy. You receive it as an award. added to all of your all of your other accolades. But we're really, really excited to to have you on the podcast and to talk about your new book. And but before we kind of get into that, we kind of would love to hear for you to be able to tell our listeners a little bit of your story. How did how did you become the Reverend canon Dorothy Lee?

2:04

I'm not really sure actually. Hang on. I was there and now I'm here. Right? I think I was brought up in a very, very conservative you'd probably say fundamentalist upbringing, in in a form of Presbyterianism called the Free Church. breeze,

2:25

freeze, dried all about that when we were Scotland, we wonder why there were all these searches in a row. And people were telling us about all the little splits in the Church of Scotland.

2:36

side of the egg that you really funny. Yeah, my father was a really was a wonderful man. He and I were very, very close. And, and I don't know, I just developed a love of theology, I think. And he was a scholarly man, and also somewhat more broad minded than his cohort. church because I would only use the King James Version. And he thought it was okay to use the ni vi. So, you know, he was considered a dangerous radical. And, I don't know, I just I felt that I was called into theology and, and then I felt I was called into ministry. So and I talked about it to him, and he's in a church that wouldn't even let women pray or read the Bible. And yet he, you know, totally supported me and my mother was a bit but, but it was great. And at the time, I'm an Anglican Episcopalian, I think you'd probably say and, and I, but at the time, they weren't ordaining women. So I went into the United Church, which was the old union of Presbyterian and Methodist. And I stayed there for a while, but, but I problem to that very hospitable church, but not strong on theology. And also, I regard myself as a conservative in many ways. And that's not how I'm always seeing, but I hear I don't want to be in a church, which never says Father, Son, Holy Spirit, you know, I just felt that that it would become very PC. A little bit too PC for me. Now, that all sounds sounds judgmental, and I feel bad saying that, because I was so good to me, and so hospitable. And so encouraging of women's ministry, but but, you know, there came a point where I really needed to move. So I moved across to the Anglican Church. And that's been more like a home, I mean, a home in every sense of a home, you know, lots of fights.

4:37

But, you know,

4:39

actually one of our colleagues, in f

Noted theologian Douglas Ottati joins the show to discuss his new book A Theology for the Twenty-First Century.

TRANSCRIPT

0:01

Welcome to Jessup think I'm your host Mark Moore and your co host Rex Gurney. And on the show today we have Dr. Douglas o Tati, who is the Craig family distinguished professor of Reformed theology and justice at Davidson College in North Carolina. In fact,

0:17

he actually was teaching at Union Theological Seminary in Virginia when I was getting my doctorate and he was one of my professors about 29 years ago. So it's gonna be an interesting show today.

0:35

Thanks again, Dan, for joining us on the podcast all the way from North Carolina. Well, thank

0:41

you, Mark. It's a beautiful spring in North Carolina is probably not as dry heat as you have in California. But it's beautiful out here right now. We have blue birds flying around. I mean, it's it's a great picture of God's world. You enjoy it.

0:56

Yeah. That I've always told my wife if we moved anywhere. It would be North Carolina, America.

1:01

That's a good spot. It's got mountains. It's got a beach. It's got Sandy stuff. It's got a lot of things.

1:07

Yeah, that's that's grabs I'm good friends and kind of the Chapel Hill and Durham area. And I think I've been through Davidson is it is the city, called Davis is a little town. Charlotte isn't?

1:22

Yeah, it's exit 30 offer route 77. So we're about I want to say we're about 17 miles, 20 miles from the city of Charlotte. We're in the same county as they are. But we're in the northern part of the county. And it does, the town now has a lot of nice different things. They've got a nice little Italian restaurant. I'm really pleased about that. Because I grew up on a little Italian family. So I like to get something good to eat. They got a really good proprietor over there and all that kind of stuff. But I hear that some time ago, a dog could have gone to sleep on Main Street not been disturbed. A little bit since then.

2:00

Right. Right. But and you have a connection with Rex, that I actually didn't know that when I emailed you to set up this interview. And then seminary Virginia.

2:15

Yeah, yeah, a long time ago, but 21 years. Since I was there, I actually dug I don't know if you are aware of it. But without mentioning your name, because you know, frankly, would mean anything to anybody. I do actually use my first day in the first seminar I ever had at Union, which was with you, in theological method where we had to deal with trash, but I use it as sort of an example when I'm talking about the fundamentalist modernist controversy. And so the story I sort of tell and I have to say that I was so intimidated, actually, by you that that very first seminar, but so I went to a Southern Baptist evangelical seminary and got an M div a number of years before that. And for some inexplicable reason, they had given me the annual theology award when I graduated, which I don't understand why they did that, because I was a church history guy anyway, but whatever, whatever. I'm feeling pretty proud of myself. Because, you know, I got an award, and I, you know, and so five years later, I am in your seminar, and the very first day, I had never heard of anyone that you were talking about. And this little light bulb comes on above my head. It's like, Oh, it's like, there's two different worlds out there. And they don't even talk to each other. And they sometimes don't even act like each other exists. And so real, real kind of steep learning curve. For me to start off there.

3:41

I bet I bet. And ours troughs, you know, that's, yeah, there you go. That's a reference thing. And he and he's got certain questions in mind, and they hold up really well, for the modern period, they never go away. Right, you know, like, what do you want to make out of historical criticism in the Bible? And does it make you less confident and what you prefer to believe? Bec

Father Chris Flesoras joins Mark and Rex to discuss Eastern Orthodox spirituality, a spirituality marked by ritual, tradition, and beauty in worship.

TRANSCRIPT

0:02

Welcome to Jessup think I'm your host Mark Moore,

0:05

and your co host Rex Gurney. And today mark, we're actually going to break with traditional a little bit. And although we're going to be talking about I know Yeah, we're gonna focus on tradition, and I'm going to introduce our guest today, and it's father, Chris Flesoras or Dr. Chris Flesoras or pastor Chris Flesoras depending on how you how you know him. He's the priest at St. Anna's Greek Orthodox Church here in Roseville, and he has been teaching with his sewer Jessup, particularly the history department. He does have a PhD in history, along with his laundry list of other degrees. And he's been teaching with us for about 10 years. And he's actually one of the most more popular teachers in in the history department. I've actually never heard anybody say, it's a negative thing about about his his classes on even though he really does challenge ourselves. But I think you'll really, really enjoy what Chris has to say, just sort of explaining a little bit about the Orthodox tradition. And and what that brings to the wider Christian world.

1:08

Yeah, he's such a great voice to have on campus, and we're just excited to be able to share his voice with you on the podcast. Hope you enjoy the show.

1:24

Father, Chris, it's great to have you on the show. And I was even I was thinking this morning. I was like, I can't believe we haven't had you on the show yet. So my apology right, right away. No worries. Because, because I think you are are such a unique voice at Jessup. And and one that every student I've talked to has loved your classes. And, and you bring more students. They live in terrified. Yeah. pool of students. I talked. There was a student back in 2018. Yeah, they loved it. But now just excited to have have you on the show and kind of talk about orthodox spirituality. And, and, and I think it's really important that here just we have your voice with all of our voices, too, right. So we can kind of learn from different traditions, and but maybe to help our listeners, how long have you been teaching at Jessup? I think about 10 years,

2:25

you know, I was trying to think actually, when when it's like, how and when I like first, you know, I don't know got in contact with you or something for

2:34

Yeah, cuz you would have been the connecting piece. Right. I don't even remember that. It

2:38

was sort of Professor Professor Nystrom that used to be here. Okay. Yeah. teach, teach early church, but I became familiar with the campus through his brother that's at Sac State. For him, okay, and then learned of Jessup a. Right That's and then from there. I think when he went down to Southern California, then that was an opportunity to come and have a conversation with Rex about the department about maybe some needs here. Yeah. So I believe that's one thing started off. And

3:05

you've been teaching our early church history class, like forever. Right. Right. And, and there's no better person actually to teach that. Oh, right. I'm, I'm not making this up. Yeah.

3:15

When we may have came to Jessup at the same time, because I came around was fall 2010 was when I taught my first class, Jessup, and I'm trying to think I would have we would have connected shortly after that, I think yes. 2011. in there, so. So thank you, Rex for connecting for us and maybe played a nice drone for having a brother.

3:44

It's been a real benefit for not just our department, but I think for the whole school, especially with, ya know, what you brought to some of the conferences that we've had and such. I mean, it's good to have somebody that knows everybody. That's actually a good thing. Yeah. And, and Chris does.

3:58

Yeah, that's true. And, and with the church, too. How lon

Listen in on William Jessup University’s chapel series every Wednesday and Friday to hear speakers from across the globe, bringing messages from God’s word to our students, faculty, and staff.

Mark and Rex discuss the complex and inspiring topic of Celtic spirituality, a spirituality marked by prayer, love of nature, and union with God.

TRANSCRIPT

0:02

Welcome to Jessup think I'm your host Mark Moore, and your co host Rex Gurney. And today on the show, we're going to be exploring Celtic spirituality, spirituality marked by a deep sense of community, a love of nature and a reverence for the Trinity.

0:17

And even though it's something I've kind of come to a little bit later in my life, it's something that's really impacted my, the way I see the world and my, my devotional walk in an incredible manner really had sent and I think it has some things for all of our listeners as well.

0:34

Yeah, we hope that you enjoy the show, and it impacts you in the same way that it has us. Alright, Rex, we're gonna be I was well, I was waiting for the bagpipes to come on. Yeah. The pennywhistle. And maybe, maybe, maybe we can talk to post production. Maybe they've already added it in. And then Taylor goddess. But yeah, looking at Celtic Christianity Today and Celtic spirituality, which he said in the intro, there's something that you kind of came to later in life, and it does feel like probably the last 20 or 30 years, there's been more of an interest in Celtic spirituality.

1:25

That's right. I remember that too. I remember when it kind of got got discovered, which is sort of bizarre when you talk about been around for 1500 years that sort of got discovered it was almost faddish for a while but but after the, you know, everybody gets on the bandwagon, kind of thing. It's, um, you know, it's lasted. Really? Yeah. Because there's a deep, deep and rich vein of spirituality there.

1:52

Yeah. I remember when the Northumbria community when they published a daily prayer. I remember, man, I want to say I was in college, but maybe just out of college. I remember picking that up. And that was kind of late 90s, early 2000s.

2:09

Yeah, yeah. Almost exactly. When literally, that was exactly when I remember the wife of the associate pastor of the church. We went to Virginia, suddenly, she was also a seminary professor. And she was suddenly into Celtic spirituality. So she actually went to Ireland or Scotland or somewhere and brought back some, you know, it was she was she was really in it for a while. But that's the first time I'd ever heard of it. Actually. Yeah.

2:33

Yeah. One, especially in maybe the evangelical community, we didn't run out and talk about I mean, I think even growing up there was a suspicion of like Celtic crosses. Right. You know, I mean, just like, there's a suspicion of the crucifix as well, I think that is this kind of suspicion of, of, you know, of Celtic spirituality, and maybe the mystical element of it

2:59

right now. And in the pagan element, the warmed over druidism, or something like that. I've kind of right, you know, I've heard people criticize it for that, but it's deeply Christian.

3:10

Yeah, it is. And as we kind of get into this, or maybe people listening right now who are like, I don't exactly know, maybe the backstory of Celtic spirituality. So if you want to kind of maybe give us a little rundown on the history where it originated,

3:24

okay. It's really interesting, because it actually for Gosh, probably six or 700 years, was sort of an alternate but parallel, you know, version of the Christian faith, that kind of grew simultaneously with what ends up becoming the Roman church or the Roman Catholic Church, and really didn't have that much contact with it. But sort of grew a little bit differently. I mean, nothing, you know, heretical or anything about it, you just had sort of an almost an independent origin. And so the Celts, of course, are, you know, usually associated with Ireland and Wales and Scotland. But as we were talking before the podcast, they're sort of everywhere. I was really surprised. Actually, the first time I went to Spain,

Dr. Nijay Gupta from Northern Seminary joins Mark to discuss how the church can better read and apply the writings of Paul and the New Testament.

TRANSCRIPT

0:00

Welcome to Jessup think I'm your host, Mark Moore. And on the show, we are joined by Dr. Nee, J. Gupta, who is a professor of New Testament and northern seminary. He's the author of numerous books, including Paul and the language of faith, a beginner's guide to New Testament studies, reading Philippians, a critical commentary First and Second Thessalonians, just amongst a few of the books that he has published. He also co edits several books. He's a world class scholar, and Anna, and a great writer and a really fun conversationalist. I know you're going to enjoy the show.

0:44

Yeah, DJ, thank you so much for being on the show and joining us and really excited to, to talk to you about your scholarship on Paul in the New Testament. And particularly with Paul in the language of faith, but we'll we'll get there. But as I was kind of preparing for, for this episode, it was interesting at our church, also a pastor here in Sacramento, and at our church, we're reading the New Testament through and 90 days, so that can the first 90 days of the year, you know, added onto your workout regimen or something, you know, that you that you do starting on January one. And and this year, I think for me was, was the first time like we read through the Gospels, and just hearing Jesus hearing that and the message. And then moving to Paul and was like, Oh, yeah, there's there's a little bit of a subtle shift in, in maybe tone and what Paul highlights in a sense, and, and so I could see and then started getting questions from people in the church like, Oh, hey, how do I understand this? How do I read this? How do I, you know, how do I understand Paul here is for me, it was kind of, you know, a really good experience to be like, Oh, yeah, when we get to Paul, it's a little bit different. And we have to understand like, Okay, how, how do we approach Paul? And so really, I'd love just from you, maybe what are some ways or what are some advice for people in the church to read Paul better? Like, what is their things they need to know going into Paul? And how can we understand Paul better?

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Yeah, hi, Mark, great to be with you. And it's fun, fun to be connecting with your institution. And great, even during a pandemic, we can, you know, talk online and through a podcast and connect and meet new people. Yeah, you know, it's when you start reading the Bible carefully, you start noticing differences, distinctives of different writers and things like that. So just within the Gospels, if you're paying careful attention, you'll notice gospel, john does things differently. Right. Right. JOHN is called the maverick gospel. Yeah, because it's anti Mark, Luke are Matthew. But because it gives a little bit different of a vantage point, it kind of highlights some different things. If you think about like a modern biography of Lincoln, or even, you know, Barack Obama. Right now you're dealing with the same basic information about a person in history, you can take different camera angles, to look at that person, and it gives you a more robust picture. So yeah, when you turn to Paul, you notice things are a bit different. I would give a couple couple pieces of advice. Number one is to remember that most of Paul's letters were probably written before the gospels were written down. Yeah. And that's actually hard to keep in mind. The gospels were reading about Jesus who came before Paul's ministry, right? And yet something like First Thessalonians and Galatians were, you know, they're known to be the earliest New Testament texts. So I hate to use the word primitive, because it has negative connotation. But when you're thinking of the earliest voices in Christian literature, you're talking about Paul, and that's, you know, I Dunn's work in First Thessalonians, and you get this kind of