By Joanna Denton and Dr. JJ Kelly
The podcast currently has 27 episodes available.
Jo and J.J. welcome the inspirational Reb, Transformational Life Coach who is the driving force behind the Rise With Reb programs and community. Reb shares how she went from a wheelchair to walking, despite what the doctors said. She, Jo, and J.J. discuss why it’s so hard to let go of old habits, the responsibility we have of sharing our story on social media, the importance of advocating for yourself and doing your own research, and how not to live in a pity fest.
Takeaway:
[2:02] Reb takes her own experience of overcoming physical, mental, and emotional challenges and now helps other women take control of their health and build up confidence.
[4:48] We can really begin to work on ourselves when we take a good hard look at our own destructive willful patterns and our drive behind them. Reb shares how she got out of a bad relationship and realized it no longer served her to both be in the relationship and emotionally manipulate herself into thinking she needed a partner to be happy.
[6:02] It can be a long road to forgive ourselves for enduring abuse and partaking in bad habits, but it is a true weight to let go of guilt and shame.
[8:21] Reb talks about her fibromyalgia, and how she sought two types of therapy to really begin to process the childhood trauma and heal her body from the inside out.
[10:22] The more we heal ourselves, the more we can show up and be of service to others in a way that doesn’t drain us or leave us depleted.
[11:51] There is a fear of letting go of our habits because they have been so deeply entrenched in our identity and how we make decisions. They keep us rooted. Jo shares that her stubbornness and willful behavior can be demonstrated in eating items that she knows don’t serve her health, and believing what her inner critic has to say.
[16:03] People can take the first baby steps by admitting they are terrified, but still moving towards growth.
[17:11] Jo talks about the phenomenon that we have different aspects within ourselves, much like an orchestra and the different chairs and positions. We can choose which “musician” or subpersonality comes out, and use it to our advantage in our personal and professional lives. J.J. explains why she may not like this way of thinking, but can see the analogy and some benefits, as long as it doesn’t block us or help us make excuses.
[23:33] Reb lost followers when she chose to focus her content on recovery and body positivity. J.J. and Jo discuss how a collective should be a space where we rise up together. If people are dragging each other down, even unintentionally, it can get really toxic really fast.
[27:45] It’s a hard line to see and be able to catch yourself to see if you are wallowing, or sharing. It’s even harder and more complicated to call people out and stop them from wallowing, but it is really an act of love.
[32:59] Reb feels free in speaking her belief because it comes from her heart. You can’t cancel her!
[35:11] Re talks about her morning routine that serves her mental and physical health. Things don’t have to be perfect, but we can do the best we can every way and also lovingly call ourselves out when we aren’t doing what we know we need to do. If you fall off your routine, notice it, and then do better.
[41:11] Reb waited 6 years to see a specialist, and realized when she finally saw them that she herself had already done so much research that she knew pretty much everything they had suggested.
[42:09] What’s next for Reb? Creating a programme that helps people tap into their intuition and discover their power and confidence. Her vision is to create a programme that the NHS can refer to that features a network of healers and coaches in many different modalities.
Connect With Us:
Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly
Reb:
Rise with Reb | Twitter | Instagram | Podcast
There is a heaviness in the air, with plenty of opportunities to focus on emotional intelligence and mental health recently between World Suicide Prevention Day and the 20th anniversary of 9/11. Today Jo and J.J. focus on grief, both from the perspective of the griever and from the person trying to comfort others through their grief. Too many people don’t know what to say or how to comfort someone who is facing loss, leaving the griever feeling even worse than they already did. Jo and J.J. explore the right approach to carrying ourselves and others through grief. Jo also shares an experience about willfulness and effectiveness in DBT and why people really need to learn to let go of the need to be right and just accept what is. They talk about defining values, setting boundaries, and, on a lighter note, why #begrannymolly is Jo’s new life goal.
Takeaway:
[1:21] J.J. reflects on her experience of being rescued from the draining aftermath of 9/11 and how she has drawn a hard line to protect herself on the 20th anniversary. For her, this meant avoiding social media, documentaries, and deliberately filling her energy up.
[6:58] Reaching out on a personal level when someone is grieving about anything matters, but the overused phrase “I’m sorry for your loss” is probably the wrong thing to say. Jo offers a few statements that you can try instead.
[11:27] Too many people are afraid of facing death, or even talking about it. But that can lead to even greater hurt for the people that are grieving and surrounded by people who don’t know what to say because they haven’t figured out how to manage their own anxiety about death and loss.
[15:50] Side story — Jo’s 93-year-old Granny Molly was a member of the Geriatric Mafia - think three little old ladies (one registered blind, one deaf as a post and the third one with a dodgy hip) causing havoc on the bus and in the supermarket #begrannymolly.
[18:29] Everyone has to find the balance between the need to be right with the need to be effective. In DBT terms the behavior that gets in the way of being effective is called willfulness, which is just about the least offensive way to talk about stubborn, offensive, messed up behavior.
[21:03] How do you decide when to go into battle and when to walk away? Define your values, and if a situation is toxic, you have the right to walk away from it. The next step is to determine how far you need to go to get support from others, especially in work relationships between managers and employees.
[25:43] The physical reactions that you experience in tense situations can help you identify your anxiety level and decide how you should move forward. You can’t waste too much of your time worrying about what other people might be thinking about your actions.
[28:06] J.J. has found a new role model in Jo’s rock star family!
Connect With Us:
Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly
They’re baaack! Jo and J.J. kick off Season 2 the only way they know how - by spelling out that sometimes we can get this emotional intelligence piece wrong. Many well intentioned leaders approach emotional intelligence as a tick box exercise, merely going through the motions, rather than really understanding the objective. That faux emotional intelligence in corporate societies will likely try to cover up a more self serving agenda. Jo brings an article on the topic from the Harvard Business Review, and it leads to her and J.J. discussing how to spot inauthentic emotional intelligence, how we can develop actual skills to listen to what people really need, and why modern day EQ can seem so darn self serving. Also, J.J. shares an update on her third book, and what the process of finishing it is kicking up for her emotionally.
Takeaway:
[2:11] J.J. shares an update on her third book, and it’s going to stir up a lot of stuff about the ego and narcissism, but it made her laugh, so that’s a good sign. She and Jo discuss the process of writing and how the sweet spot is always on the other side of the fear.
[10:30] Fun fact for those who may not know: VAT stands for “value added taxes”. Who knew?
[11:15] Jo reads from Harvard Business Review’s article, Is Your Emotional Intelligence Authentic or Is It Self-Serving?
The author writes about three most common emotional intelligence counterfeits he has seen leaders get trapped in:
[14:51] If some of these describe you, don’t panic! It doesn’t mean you are an awful person, we are often trained to do these to fit into our job or the larger thread of society.
[18:17] We can feel the energy of inauthenticity on a primal level.
[21:54] The White Knight syndrome is a co-dependent move where you think you are more together than everyone you socialize, and only you can help them. The Sexist Rescuer is also the person that swoops in to “help” someone and save them from sexism, but with a need to be recognized attached to it.
[23:47] Emotional intelligence only works if you are asking yourself the hard questions. We may get a hit of shame, but it’s our only chance of moving forward. If you are in a group considered the minority, it is your responsibility to do the work on what triggers you and your blind spots.
[29:12] There is verbal and emotional abuse veiled in emotional intelligence, which is the worst kind of abuse of power, and it’s up to us to take a hard look at ourselves and acknowledge our blind spots.
Connect With Us:
Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly
Is Your Emotional Intelligence Authentic or Is It Self-Serving?
Madonna Inn
What a season! As Jo and J.J. wrap up Season 1, they identify a few of the themes that came up with the fantastic array of guests. Between fear, shame, embracing your weirdness and much more, Season 1 was chock full of learning from each other and calling in new perspectives. This week, they highlight a few stand-out moments and give us a sneak peek of what we can look forward to in Season 2.
Takeaway:
[4:43] As Jo was reading the Sunday papers over breakfast, she came across an article she found interesting. Titled, “I Didn’t Have Burnout. It was a Lie,” designer Rebecca Minkoff explained why she dreaded going back to work after maternity leave, and why it may not have been her own burnout but external factors. This brings up the conversation of the pros and cons of more people speaking openly about burnout and putting a label on it. It may help people speak up and have language and feel less alone, but we can also over-identify with labels and not take accountability.
[9:44] Jo has gotten direct feedback from her presentations on burnout that talking about it helps bring it into the light and helps people feel less like they are losing their minds. When we know that it’s exhaustion rather than a character flaw or defect, we have structure and can get an actionable plan more into place.
[12:59] Jo and J.J. recap the amazing guests they have had this first season, and although the guests have all been quite different, each one of them offers their intelligence, perspective, and wisdom to the episode. A few of the themes that came from conversations include letting go of control, embracing your authentic nature and even the weirdness that may come along with it, and intentionality. A big one that came up, as it did here in the episode with author and coach Kristine Goad, is that the biggest adventure in life is to be yourself.
[17:05] Another theme was shame and guilt. We often have no idea the guilt or shame we carry around, as evidenced in the recent episode with Reverend Erika Allison who talked openly about her healing after conversion therapy. Jo used to feel guilty for not working during holidays. Most people suffer from the worry that they are not good enough, so they self-medicate with shame. Before we even try to problem solve and put our minds on the case, we must validate our emotions and sit in them for a moment.
[22:06] We are encouraged by society to burn ourselves out and be anxious. Products are sold by tapping into people’s fear and desire to constantly be better, skinnier and appear more wealthy. When you finally start to feel as though you are good enough, you can partake in these things from a place of joy instead of lack.
[25:42] These conversations are complex because if you are balancing self-care and acting according to your values, then productivity will go up. However, the more people can feel you setting boundaries, the more they sometimes want to push them.
[30:28] There are subtle and not-so-subtle ways that work environments try to trample people’s boundaries. Middle management is sometimes caught between the higher-up boss and the employee: this is when good communication and the ability to regulate emotions is critical.
[34:02] Great leaders can also help millennials and the younger workers have the right tools in place to both be great at their job but also have boundaries in place. Jo has been on both sides, and feels that a manager and employee can aim for constructive conversations around it.
[35:32] There are so many levels to power dynamics but there are easy ways to change.
[37:58] Women working for women can be challenging, and internalized sexism is definitely a thing. People may act like they have power over you, but it’s up to you to confirm it.
[41:14] What’s coming up for the next season? Great guests, listener questions, a deeper dive into topics, and a lot of laughs and learning along the way.
Connect With Us:
Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly
Listen to Season 1 here
“I didn’t have burnout. It was a lie.”
Brene Brown
So often we hide our differences so we can fit in and belong. For some, doing this at work is extremely difficult or not even an option. This week, Jo and J.J. welcome Faith Clarke, Organizational Health and Inclusion Specialist who works with value-driven and diverse teams so they can deliver on business and social impact promises at the highest level. Faith is extremely passionate about inclusion for BIPOC and neuro-distinct individuals and advocating for those who “don’t belong”. She discusses the importance of mental health and how her children taught her to focus more on wisdom than having control. She talks about how organizations can change one small thing at a time and the importance of listening to the underserved and those having difficulties directly rather than assuming what they need.
Takeaway:
[3:46] Faith talks about the importance of mental health in parenting children with complex needs. She is a mom to autistic children, and it became very clear to her early on that maintaining her own self-care was the only way to nourish herself and her children in the process; staying in fixing mode 24/7 was never going to be sustainable.
[5:29] Faith explains why she refers to her children as neuro distinct rather than neuro-typical. We are all diverse, and it fits better because her children deal with a wide range of distinct experiences including OCD, depression, and characteristics of autism.
[8:42] The more we operate in the illusion that we are in control of everything and everyone, the more suffering we will feel. Faith talks with Jo and J.J. about mining from wisdom rather than the past. As a Caribbean woman, she quite literally has faith that she is able to handle challenging times and has a deep resilience for what life throws at her.
[10:50] Half of the struggle in autism is being in a world not quite meant for you. A large part of Faith’s mission is helping people create an environment that helps those who are neuro-distinct feel as though they can fully contribute in a way that fits for them.
[12:29] The stuffing down of emotions like anger and sadness is often what leads to the messes that need cleaning up and the bigger reactions like anxiety or panic attacks.
[17:24] Why do we have to fight for advocacy in the United States? Jo questions why it isn’t just the case that if someone gets diagnosed, they get the support and information they need without so much red tape and the need to jump over hoop after hoop. Jo’s jaw hits the floor thinking about the challenges built into the United States medical systems (particularly as she comes from a country with a free national health system). Faith explains that the person saying yes is often not the one being affected, and the system is built on a very old and patriarchal one with a lot of conscious and unconscious biases and blind spots.
[28:09] Smart people can self-medicate their anxiety with certainty and control, and when dealing with the neuro-distinct, that can be a recipe for disaster. Instead, we are better off starting from the ground floor to make the workplace more inclusive with recommendations by the people themselves that are affected most day to day.
[28:56] We come up with the right solutions when we ask the right questions to the right people. Faith says we should start with including the people actually at the table and hear what barriers they face in contributing.
[30:12] It may seem too good to be true, but work can actually be restorative and nourishing. It doesn’t have to be soul-draining, and when we build a workflow in a way that works with people instead of against them, we are more effective and productive.
[36:42] There are some key things companies should look for to see if there really are barriers in contribution: are people disengaged, is there too much or not enough conflict? (the point on not enough conflict is an interesting one, as this can often be symptomatic of a team environment that does not allow its members to speak up). Does new talent start strong and then seem to dwindle their light down? Is your leadership flexible or rigid? When people make it to the top, are they able to be more of themselves and lead in their own way, or are they exhausted in a cemented system? More people than ever are opting to leave their jobs instead of settling for what they don’t want, which is arguably why we maintain the same patterns for years and years.
[42:00] We know that diversity creates better opportunity, but we are creating a defense of apathy and productivity in people that would normally be enthusiastic.
[43:08] The pandemic has shown us that we can pivot quickly when it’s important. Faith talks about her vision for the future, where we connect research and speed it up to commit to doing even one small thing at a time right now.
[45:50] If everyone having a voice and ability to contribute is not enough to entice leadership, the money aspect surely will. Money motivates, and if we look at lost income and productivity due to not letting everyone have a seat at the table, we can see just how much is at stake.
Connect With Us:
Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly
Faith Clarke
Jo and J.J. welcome Reverend Erika Allison, Queer interfaith minister, speaker, author, and spiritual counselor. Rev. Erika talks about her own experience with conversion therapy, and how harmful it can be, causing long-term effects and even high cases of suicide. She talks about her healing and recovery, and the choice to forgive and let go of anger. Her book, Gay the Pray Away, guides readers on their own journey and can also serve as a powerful resource for someone who has a loved one coming out as a member of the LGBTQ+ community. She, Jo, and J.J. send a message to parents that almost anything can be worked through, and as more structures fall apart, we will welcome people more for who they truly are with open hearts.
Takeaway:
[3:24] Rev. Erika experienced firsthand how critical of an issue mental health is. She experienced conversion therapy and the lifelong healing journey that came with it. A staggering statistic is that if you come out of conversion therapy alive, you have a 92% chance of lifetime suicidal ideation. Mental health is something Rev. Erika is committed to working on forever, and her enthusiastic way helps even the most resistant person listen.
[6:49] Conversion therapy is an attempt to change someone’s orientation or gender identity. It can be done for social reasons, religious reasons, and many times it’s out of love and fear on the part of parents and family that the person will go to Hell, etc. This makes it even more confusing, and even though it has been widely discredited by professional mental health and medical organizations, it still goes on today. SOCE (sexual orientation change efforts) believes homosexuality is a curable disease, which can cause a profound amount of harm to an individual.
[11:29] Fear can cause us to lessen the ability to think critically and believe whatever outside authorities tell us. In families worried about their children being queer, they can revert back to believing whatever “the man” tells them. This can mean a religious figure, a doctor, etc.
[12:59] Rev. Erika talks about the long-term implications of her conversion therapy. She thought that because it hadn’t changed her sexual orientation there was no damage done, but she had to do a lot of work on how it affected her level of trust in relationships and the shame that came with the therapy.
[15:19] We tend to think our trauma isn’t as bad or important as someone else’s, but that can hold us back from healing. For Rev. Erika, the more she journaled, the more she tapped into her subconscious mind and saw harmful beliefs and blind spots that were scary, but necessary as part of the work.
[18:34] Jo has always been very academic, and the more work she did, the more she saw her beliefs that her parents telling her to “do her best” meant to her to “be the best”. This put a large amount of pressure and stress on her, feeling as though she was a failure and defective if she wasn’t at the top.
[21:37] Rev. Erika sought out communities that took responsibility for the impact of their intentions, words, and behavior. This is where Buddhism helped, and meditation and mindfulness helped her detach from her thoughts and become more of an observer.
[23:38] Conversion therapy can make someone feel as though they can’t trust themselves or their gut feelings. Rev. Erika saw this clearly when she hired a coach to help her breakthrough professional and personal barriers, and they commented that she had one foot on the gas, and also one foot on the brake. On the one hand, she was forging forward with her work and her message, but at the same time, there was something holding her back, stopping her from stepping completely into her work. On reflection, she realized that she was trying to protect herself from someone saying something or judging her in a way that triggered beliefs she had about herself. She, Jo, and J.J. discuss how triggers are our responsibilities too, and you can only get triggered by something still activated in you. Many times people hate on us because we trigger something in them.
[30:19] Rev. Erika talks about viewing her inner critic as one voice at the conference table. It gets a say and it’s part of what makes her up as a human being, but it doesn’t call the shots. The more we can integrate our inner critic with our other parts, the less we resist it.
[37:12] Our inner critic is just one truth, not THE truth. Each voice has their role, whether they are trying to keep us safe or get us to the next level of life.
[41:35] Through Rev. Erika’s work, she enthusiastically brings the message of self-acceptance into the world. We are now in a time where many systems are crumbling, and while scary, that can be good for shedding the old and stepping into our new more healing and true potential.
[44:31] People like Rev. Erika who have gone through such dramatic trauma and healing can light the way for others.
[47:05] J.J. has an important message for parents whose children come out: queer teen suicide is much higher than you may think. Learning this may be hard for you, but think: would you rather have them alive and queer or face the other option? You can work through almost everything, but you can’t work through suicide.
[49:06] Rev. Erika talks about her decision to let go of anger and forgive. It doesn’t make her story invalid or take away what happened to her but helps her move forward. In her mind, she wrote a letter to herself from her mom’s highest self, and it shifted their relationship completely. Soon after, her mom wrote an email and apologized to her. When you shift things, it instigates an energetic shift from fear to love.
Connect With Us:
Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly
Rev. Erika Allison | Gay The Pray Away
Big Magic
You are a Badass
Taming Your Gremlin
This week, Jo and J.J. are joined by Marie Louise Ashworth, President of The Network, a network of female entrepreneurs and professionals in Luxembourg. The Network is devoted to developing a supportive community of women and helping them build resilience, avoid burnout, and thrive as they meet their personal and professional goals. Marie Louise is also a committed mentor for young women and startups. She talks with Jo and J.J. about how to maintain our individual character while working in a corporate setting, the importance of community, and how she got on the other side of her own burnout.
Takeaway:
[3:44] Marie Louise had her own experience of feeling burnt out, lost, lonely and isolated. Like both Jo and J.J., she believes that the more we talk about it, the better.
[5:36] Like Jo, it took a life-changing experience for Marie Louise to decide to change her life and get support for her burnout. She shares a harrowing plane experience that made her face her own mortality and realise that she needed to get help. We often ignore the signs our bodies are giving us, and part of mindfulness is taking care of yourself before it becomes a crisis. The more we can give ourselves permission to take a break and a rest when we need it, the more energy we can have to be better in our personal and professional lives, as well as to help others.
[11:54] J.J. believes we should get rid of the word “lazy” altogether, and instead not have so much shame and stigma around just taking a much-needed pause. For example, when you are training with weights or in the gym, it is encouraged to have rest days to let the muscles regroup. The same is true for our brains and stress levels as we work long hours and lead a busy life. The challenge comes when we start to equate taking a rest to being lazy.
[13:00] Noticing and naming emotions is a large part of mindfulness, and catching ourselves before it becomes a crisis. Society may tell us that the only good days are the productive ones, but it’s only once we unpack our beliefs and emotions that we can tell the truth and start to implement healthier patterns that create sustainable and positive change.
[18:29] Yes, menopause can certainly affect our hormones and how we feel, but we also must track and observe our thoughts and patterns. J.J. discusses how clients are often reluctant to give up certain behaviours, even if they have identified them as destructive because they have gotten them through a crisis. The more they make space to implement new Emotional Intelligence skills, and push through the awkwardness, the more they can start to choose behaviours that work in their favour.
[21:08] Through The Network, Marie Louise and her team help women learn some of the interpersonal skills to help them survive and thrive in the workplace, such as emotional regulation. The Network also provides monthly sessions and events, mentorship, and accountability partners. The focus is very much on personal growth, equality, and inclusion.
[31:39] How can we accept our true nature in a corporate environment, and is that even possible? J.J. and Jo discuss each of their experiences with trying to embrace their individuality but running into expectations and limitations at their workplace. For Jo, when she got told she wore too much pink, her mentor explained there was a certain expectation of a tax accountant and how they should look — and it was more ‘grey suit than pink coat’. While we all need to be accepted for who we are and what we are capable of doing, sometimes you have to play the game and show your worth first; when you have done that, no one will care about the pink coat.
[38:06] There is still a game to be played, but it’s how we play it and with what intention we play it with. We can start with the grey suit and show how good we are, but it is important to keep our self-esteem intact. There is a better way to get around in the world, but you have to have resilience which takes mindfulness of validating your own experience so you can be honest with yourself.
[45:53] It is common for an individual to have a crisis each decade, but no one talks about it and people tend to blame their environment. The anger that comes with stuffing down their emotions can lead to anxiety and panic attacks.
[48:57] Has going virtual during the pandemic helped dispel the notion that we have to wear boring gray suits to be good at work? Time will tell, but leaders showing up to work with pets, pyjamas, and children, may have been a good start.
Connect With Us:
Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly
Marie Louise Ashworth - LinkedIn | The Network
Jo is on her own this week and shares her reflections on how the attitude around burnout has shifted throughout the generations, especially since the pandemic. Jo discusses three perceptions of burnout that she has seen a shift: that if you burnout that means you are broken or weak; that burnout and exhaustion is just a side effect of being busy which is a good thing, and that life is just tough and you should just get on with it and not complain. After two burnouts in five years and coming through the other side, Jo now works with clients to help them do their best work without burning out. She is also on a mission to move through the still palpable stigma around burnout in both work and interpersonal settings.
Takeaway:
[4:04] Jo discusses the impact that the pandemic has had on more people talking about their burnout, and more people experiencing the stress and fatigue that comes with working from home. By April 2020, 2.6 billion people went into lockdown, and 80% of the global workforce was fully or partially closed. A huge percentage of knowledge workers were doing their job from home, and this opened up more conversations about mental health and the work/life balance. Burnout is a global problem, and this was a rare time that the whole world got to pause and take stock of what is actually important in their life.
[5:41] One of the feelings of burnout is typically that you are alone and that everyone else is winning at life, while you are broken or not cut out for success. Even if more people have been talking about burnout during the pandemic, there is still a stigma around speaking up about it.
[7:33] In 2014, 16 years into her tax career, Jo went through her second burnout in five years. After healing and coming out on the other side, she wrote her book, created two TEDx talks, and started this podcast with J.J. to have open conversations around mental health and burnout.
[9:05] The concept of workplace burnout first appeared in the 1970s, and since then there has been much debate within the medical community on how to treat it, who is susceptible to it, what causes it, and if it is an illness or all in the head. In 2019, the WHO included burnout in the international classification of diseases as a syndrome linked to chronic workplace stress that has not been properly managed; it also characterized the syndrome around three main elements: (i) feeling exhausted and depleted, (ii) increased cynicism and distance from the work, and (iii) reduced feelings of professional efficacy.
[10:58] Perception #1: If you burn out, it means you are weak and broken and not cut out for this kind of high-pressure work. Burnout has long been placed on the employee, but studies show that the work environment may have more to do with it than we think.
[11:25] According to the research, a few traits of a workplace that employees tend to get more burnt out include unsustainable workload, extremely high pressure, perceived lack of control, and lack of community. Much like a canary in a landmine, it’s the environment that made them sick. When an employee falls off their “perch” at work, people are recognizing that maybe it’s the workplace and not just their traits as an individual.
[15:48] Only time will tell if organizations have really learned during the pandemic what employees need, or if we will fully go back to the way things were before.
[18:02] Perception #2: Burnout means you are exhausted because you are busy, and surely that’s a good thing because being exhausted is a badge of honour. Jo talks about how exhaustion became this badge of honor that we carry around today, and how in the 18th century, doctors stopped blaming it on the individual and instead on society. Exhaustion is linked to success and status, and we almost one-up each other by showing how hard we work and how little we take breaks. Our self worth and prestige has become measured by how productive we can be, and exhaustion represents this.
[20:11] Junior employees come through and demand that there be more to life than being tired or exhausted, but there has to be a balance of doing the hard work, of learning the ropes.
[25:05] Perception #3: Life is tough and you should just get on with it, and quit complaining. Many high achievers feel that working hard is shown by putting in long hours and that your dedication is directly attached to the number of hours you work. Jo shares how she believed that self-care was lazy, unprofessional, and something for California hippies. However, if we all learned more about emotional intelligence alongside other more traditional and academic studies, we may not have the same levels of burnout, PTSD, or even depression that we see today.
[29:41] Talking about mental health and burnout has got to happen. People need to know they are not on their own and there is a different way to thrive and blossom based in reality where you don’t have to drag yourself into the ground.
Connect With Us:
Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly
Dr. Christina Maslach
Simon Sinek on Millennials in the Workplace
How Exhaustion Became A Status Symbol
How the Pandemic Exacerbated Burnout
This week, Jo and J.J. revisit a few months back during the time of the election to check on one of the most judged and misunderstood emotions — anger. They discuss why doing the deep work of anger is like wading through that infamous tunnel scene in The Shawshank Redemption, how anger signals that our boundaries are being crossed, and how letting go of anger needs to be a conscious choice. They also talk about how to process anger if you can’t really act on it right then and there, and why women have such a tougher time showing anger in public. Jo shares a story from her previous work that blows J.J. away and displays how women often stand up for each other before they stand up for their own needs.
Takeaway:
[3:11] J.J. discusses the Feels on Wheels program and reaching as many people as possible to help them own their emotions. When we can cultivate resilience to go through the tough emotions, we have powerful tools for getting through the tougher days.
[5:03] We want to aim for making decisions based on our values rather than fear. However, the first step is validating those emotions and observing when they bubble up. When we put words to our emotions, we allow ourselves to process them rather than having fear guide our choices.
[8:01] One of the strongest symptoms of burnout is emotional exhaustion. Leading up to that, there is often a lot of anger and fear that we are pushing down or distracting ourselves from, for many possible reasons including societal or family pressure.
[10:42] J.J. compares digging in and really doing anger work to the sewage tunnel in The Shawshank Redemption. When the character Andy is trying to escape from prison, he chooses to get into a sewer to navigate towards freedom. Anger work often gets worse before it gets better because you are stirring up many repressed feelings. Choosing to get into therapy or emotional intelligence work is choosing to enter, going through the nasty shit tunnel, but knowing it is so much better on the other side.
[12:33] Panic attacks and anxiety disorders are often the result of stuffed anger. Jo brings up that anger repressed may also lead to OCD behaviors and the need to control everything and be perfect.
[13:44] Women, especially Black or BIPOC women, are made to feel hysterical or out of control about their emotions while society makes it okay for men to act out their anger with little to no consequence. Anger is important because it signals to us that boundaries are being crossed, and it can be a safety issue that our gut is telling us to get out of a situation immediately.
[15:20] You may choose based on your values not to express the anger, however, it will back up on you if you don’t even admit to yourself that you feel it. Jo shares an instance where she stood up for other women before she did for herself. A Senior Male colleague made a sexist remark and J.J. not only wishes she was there to rip him to shreds but points out that it is a typical woman thing to come to other people’s defenses before their own.
[23:13] Why aren’t we better at defending each other? There is still much sexism and brainwashing in our society both in our personal and professional lives. It’s visible in the media when different commentators on the same debate chastise women for standing up for themselves, not saying enough, or having too much/too little confidence.
[25:48] J.J. talks about senior men trying to gaslight her in meetings by saying the exact same point she just made moments later and claiming the thought as their own, trying to take the credit. She blatantly points it out, and while not everyone can do that, we can have the tools to learn how to validate and process it.
[27:07] If we choose not to act on anger, we still have to process it somehow. However, if you choose not to act but ruminate later, that is the indicator that you probably gave into fear at some point.
[31:03] We view anger with more judgement than other emotions such as fear or sadness. There is a lot of programming by society and family for us to not know how to process our anger in a healthy way, especially for women.
[38:13] Instead of acting from fear, you can do a D.E.A.R (describe, express, assert, reinforce) practice on the situation to get in touch with the emotions and let them move through so you act with more groundedness and clarity.
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Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly
Burn Out
Brene Brown Podcast
We may see horses as just cute animals grazing across the farm, but they are really incredible teachers, full of wisdom and life lessons about living in the moment and letting go of the past. This week, Jo and J.J. are joined by June Burgess, Equine Coach, Business Director, and Entrepreneur. She talks about how she began her Equine Assistance Workshops and why working with horses can be so powerful for our mental health. Jo shares her own experience in learning to relax around the horses and how that mirrored so much about business and the need for perfectionism. June shares some amazing stories of working with veterans suffering from PTSD and CEO’s of large companies, and how they both had transformations after working with horses.
Takeaway:
[3:48] In her work, June can tell a lot from someone by how they interact with horses. Horses are masters in responding to dangerous situations, galloping away, and then going back to grazing once the danger has passed. Horses also conserve their energy instead of letting the past or anxiety about the future consume them.
[7:24] Horses are simple in their responses and they don’t care about politeness. A horse will tell you quickly if they need space or if you are not respecting their boundaries. This feedback is priceless for people to learn interpersonal dynamics without having to interact with other humans.
[9:39] June has a fascinating background, from competing internationally to building a 132 room five star hotel in Belfast, and acting as the director in numerous successful companies. This corporate background helped her fully understand the need of leaders and managers to get the proper training to deal with the stress that comes from financial burdens and work pressures. It taught her that you can not work with horses and have your head somewhere else, but rather fully be immersed in the present moment.
[16:34] June discusses her work with veterans and helping them manage the very painful symptoms of PTSD. They began to trust the process and the horses, and found that building rapport with these animals could help them take baby steps to trusting the outside world. Even if it took dozens of times to try again, the horses were always there waiting to help.
[25:21] Jo talks about the pressure she put on herself to work with horses the right way, and how the horse responded by leaning away from her in the pen. By letting go of the pressure and the attachment to a certain outcome, she could physically relax a little and the horse picked up on this and reflected back a calmer and more trusting energy.
[29:42] As humans, we often argue for behavior we know doesn’t work because we are too afraid of letting go of control. J.J. talks about seeing clients cling on to something they know won’t work just to not feel scared or threatened. This ties into horses because the more we can drop the need for control, the more we can connect with a horse’s heart and mind the more they choose to follow instead of back away or resist.
[39:34] We spend so much of our days clenched and tightened. June helps people learn to relax their body and smile with “all four cheeks”. Jo shares how post burnout, she saw how disconnected she was from the neck down. Reiki helped her unblock some of the stuck energy and tune in to where she felt most tense.
[45:42] Instead of validating the fear and letting it go, no one wants to admit they are scared. Horses can completely pick up on this and when we are being inauthentic. J.J. says how teenagers are also an example of pure and natural energy that isn’t afraid to call it like they see it.
Connect With Us:
Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly
June Burgess
Smiling With Four Cheeks
Horse Workshops with June
The podcast currently has 27 episodes available.