Kohn's Zone

More than a quarter-century after “No Child Left Behind” deliberately left millions of children behind by imposing nationwide punitive high-stakes testing, U.S. students are still tested constantly, starting early in elementary school. Children in many states may be forced to repeat a grade based solely on their scores. In a memorable conversation, FAIRTEST director Harry Feder helps us understand just how pervasive testing has become and why that’s very bad news. Standardized exams have largely become, in his words, “tests of test-taking skills” rather than of academic proficiency. Moreover, NCLB and its legacy of constant testing (and test-oriented instruction) has a disproportionately damaging impact on low-income and minority students. Feder explains that authentic, performance-based assessments are not just realistic alternatives to standardized tests but produce far more meaningful results while avoiding the deadening effects of a test-prep curriculum. In short, people who who claim that standardized testing is necessary or useful are those who know the least about assessment and learning.

RESOURCES:

A note from Alfie Kohn:

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The psychological consequences of pressuring children to perform well academically (and, worse, to outperform their peers) are distressingly obvious. But some adults rationalize their actions by claiming that pressure can be productive. Here we consider psychological research on different amounts and types of stress, as well as asking what exactly we view as a “productive” outcome. It turns out that internal pressure can be as damaging as external, and pressure on educators (e.g., to raise students’ test scores) can undermine the quality of teaching — and, thus, of learning. Likewise, “no pain, no gain” – a particularly toxic credo often taught to males – is driven more by ideology than by any evidence of practical value.

RESOURCES

Suniya Luthar and Bronwyn Becker, “Privileged but Pressured?” Child Development 73 (2002) – https://tinyurl.com/4r5arxa4

Abiola Keller et al., “Does the Perception that Stress Affects Health Matter?”, Health Psychology 31 (2012) – https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2011-30116-001

Thomas Curran et al., “Perfectionism is Accelerating Over Time,” Psychological Bulletin 152 (2026) – https://psycnet.apa.org/fulltext/2027-72800-001.html

Cheryl Flink et al., “Controlling Teaching Strategies,” Journal of Personality & Social Psychology 59 (1990) – https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1991-13808-001

Edward L. Deci et al., “Effects of Performance Standards on Teaching Styles,” Journal of Educational Psychology 74 (1982) – https://tinyurl.com/3nekpbyw

Alfie Kohn, The Myth of the Spoiled Child (Beacon Press, 2016) – https://www.alfiekohn.org/myth-spoiled-child/

A note from Alfie Kohn:

If you’re enjoying Kohn’s Zone, please tell other people about it. If you have feedback about an episode, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/. And if you’re willing to do your part to keep the podcast ad- and paywall-free, please click on the donate button or visit https://coff.ee/kohnszone. Thanks!

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The amount of bullying that goes on in schools is as sobering as the psychological impact it has on its victims, sometimes lasting into adulthood. Alas, common strategies for dealing with this problem are often ineffective and even counterproductive. In fact, we may inadvertently create a climate conducive to bullying by relying on punitive discipline and also by pitting students against each other in contests. Rather than just trying to protect individual kids — or, worse, punishing bullies — we need to work with all students (and adults) to restructure the school’s culture and norms.

RESOURCES:

Barbara Coloroso, The Bully, The Bullied, and the Not-So-Innocent Bystander (William Morrow, 2004/2016) – https://tinyurl.com/4z3nmyur

Katherine Schaeffer, “9 Facts About Bullying in the U.S.,” Pew Resarch Report, 2023 – https://tinyurl.com/ybe5axjh

Frank Elgar et al., “Income Inequality and School Bullying,” Journal of Adolescent Health 45 (2009) – https://tinyurl.com/4rj6fs98

Suzet Tanya Lereya et al., “Parenting Behavior and the Risk of Becoming a Victim and a Bully/Victim,” Child Abuse & Neglect 37 (2013) – https://tinyurl.com/4ncaecv5

Kyriaki Fousiani et al., “Perceived Parenting and Adolescent Cyber-Bullying,” Journal of Child and Family Studies 25 (2016) – https://is.gd/ziVkTJ

William E. Copeland et al., ” Adult Psychiatric Outcomes of Bullying and Being Bullied…,” JAMA Psychiatry 70 (2013) – https://tinyurl.com/wk6du7ba

Mark J. Van Ryzin & Cary J. Roseth, “Cooperative Learning in Middle School, Journal of Educational Psychology 110 (2018) – https://is.gd/k04lUr

Maria Rosaria Di Stasio et al., “Social Comparison, Competition, and Teacher-Student Relationships…Predicts Bullying and Victimization,” Journal of Adolescence 53 (2016) – https://tinyurl.com/bdddtdej

Sung Hyeon Cheon et al., “Cluster Randomized Control Trial to Reduce Peer Victimization,” American Psychologist 78(2023) – https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36701523/

A note from Alfie Kohn:

If you’re enjoying Kohn’s Zone, please tell other people about it. If you have feedback about an episode, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/. And if you’re willing to do your part to keep the podcast ad- and paywall-free, please click on the donate button or visit https://coff.ee/kohnszone. Thanks!

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How can schools help children to become not only good learners but also good people? What’s involved in cultivating a genuine concern about others, an enduring commitment to helping and caring? Here we consider several strategies, which require us to look beyond behaviors and think about motives: the care we express for students, the prosocial examples we set, the beliefs we hold about them, the explanations we offer (about how their actions affect others), and the opportunities we create to practice caring. Particularly important for helping students to grow into caring people is the (eminently teachable) capacity to imagine the perspective of others, which promotes intellectual as well as moral growth.

A note from Alfie Kohn:

If you’re enjoying Kohn’s Zone, please tell other people about it. If you have feedback about an episode, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/. And if you’re willing to do your part to keep the podcast ad- and paywall-free, please click on the donate button or visit https://coff.ee/kohnszone. Thanks!

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What the real science of reading shows is that there isn’t a single method for learning how to read that’s ideal for all children. Moreover, reading is not just about letter-sound relationships; it’s about making meaning — reading (and talking about) real books for real reasons. In an eye-opening conversation, literacy expert Catherine Compton-Lilly helps us dissect the dishonest claims of the so-called “Science of Reading” campaign and understand why an overemphasis on phonics (mechanical decoding) is not just unhelpful but actively harmful. SOR mandates amount to a kind of “educational malpractice” that ultimately diminish kids’ understanding of what they read and their enthusiasm about reading itself. Compton-Lilly describes what high-quality language-arts instruction looks like in the primary grades and beyond, as well as how thoughtful teachers assess kids’ reading proficiency (hint: not with tests!).

RESOURCES

Catherine Compton-Lilly et al., “Stories Grounded in Decades of Research: What We Truly Know about the Teaching of Reading,” The Reading Teacher 77 (2023): 392-400 – https://ila.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/trtr.2258

Catherine Compton-Lilly, “Centering Children and Working Towards Equity: Teaching All Children to Read,” Journal of Reading Recovery 24 (2025): 5-16 – https://tinyurl.com/zn9pa3yu

Robert J. Tierney and P David Pearson, Fact-Checking the Science of Reading (Literacy Research Commons, 2024) – https://is.gd/3CboHH

David Reinking et al., “Legislating Phonics: Settled Science or Political Polemics?”, Teachers College Record 125 (2023): 104-31 – https://is.gd/FChhv3

Alfie Kohn, “On Teaching Reading…” (excerpt from The Schools Our Children Deserve [Houghton Mifflin, 1999]) – https://is.gd/h32VeY

A note from Alfie Kohn:

If you’re enjoying Kohn’s Zone, please tell other people about it. If you have feedback about an episode, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/. And if you’re willing to do your part to keep the podcast ad- and paywall-free, please click on the donate button or visit https://coff.ee/kohnszone. Thanks!

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Even if you aren’t ideologically opposed to segregation in schools, research shows that it doesn’t make sense for practical reasons — and that goes not only for segregation by race but also segregation by gender, ability, or age. What generally proves beneficial, from preschool to college, are heterogeneous environments — diverse schools and, equally important, diverse classrooms. But because proximity doesn’t guarantee affection, the optimal arrangement also provides support for interdependence: guided heterogeneity in which learning is structured to promote shared goals and perspective taking.

RESOURCES

For citations to the research mentioned in this episode, please see “Heterogenius,” the essay on which it’s based.

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We’re faced with a silent epidemic of obedience, a pervasive failure to become outraged by outrageous things. Adults whose highest accolade for a child is “well-behaved” often themselves suffer from a crisis of moral courage. This episode offers practical suggestions for teachers and parents who want to help kids acquire not only the capacity but the inclination to question what they’re told — and, when necessary, to refuse to go along.

A note from Alfie Kohn:

If you’re enjoying Kohn’s Zone, please tell other people about it. If you have feedback about an episode, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/. And if you’re willing to do your part to keep the podcast ad- and paywall-free, please click on the donate button or visit https://coff.ee/kohnszone. Thanks!

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We have been raised – and, in turn, raise our children – to take on faith that recreation requires competition, that half the people playing a game must try to defeat the other half. (They “cooperate” only with their teammates, and only in order to triumph over the other team.) In a true cooperative game, by contrast, everyone on the field – or gathered around a table indoors, in the case of cooperative board games – is working together toward the same goal. There are loads of such games for kids and adults, and you have to experience them to realize just how much fun competition isn’t.

RESOURCES:

Alfie Kohn, No Contest: The Case Against Competition (Houghton Mifflin, 1986/1992) – https://www.alfiekohn.org/contest/

Terry Orlick, The Cooperative Sports & Games Book (Pantheon, 1978) – https://amzn.to/33rltfY

https://www.cooperativegames.com/

https://familypastimes.com

A note from Alfie Kohn:

If you have comments or questions about an episode, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/. And if you’re willing to help keep the podcast ad- and paywall-free, please click on the donate button or visit https://coff.ee/kohnszone. Thanks!

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In theory, the fact that all but a handful of states have eliminated do-or-die exit exams allows high schools to finally do right by teenagers, to help them become engaged intellectuals and caring people. A leading theorist and practitioner of secondary education – author, professor, and long-time Midwestern principal George Wood – examines the barriers to creating meaningful high school reform as well as how they can be overcome. That means reducing school size and class size; having students take fewer classes and giving them more autonomy; eliminating tracking; creating advisory systems and interdisciplinary faculty teams; promoting deep intellectual inquiry in place of mere transmission of knowledge; creating authentic assessment and opportunities for cross-age interaction. If all of this can be done in a low-income public school district in rural Ohio, it can be done anywhere.

RESOURCES:

George H. Wood, Time to Learn, 2nd ed. (Heinemann, 2005) – https://tinyurl.com/2z25vd9m

George H. Wood, Schools That Work (Plume, 1993) – https://tinyurl.com/2zpccmhu

Theodore R. Sizer, Horace’s Compromise (Harper, 1984/2004) – https://tinyurl.com/bdhyvtr7

Deborah Meier, The Power of Their Ideas (Beacon, 1995) – https://tinyurl.com/2u9cbkaw

Harvey Daniels et al., Rethinking High School (Heinemann, 2000) – https://tinyurl.com/3t22mfxf

Eliot Levine, One Kid at a Time (Teachers College Press, 2001) – https://tinyurl.com/59ddwzyw

3 videos illustrating progressive education at a public high school (Urban Academy):

“Talk Talk Talk”: https://vimeo.com/590281072

“Looking for an Argument”: https://vimeo.com/453359582

“Back to the Books”: https://is.gd/WH5JCZ

A note from Alfie Kohn:

If you’re enjoying Kohn’s Zone, please tell other people about it.

If you have comments or questions about an episode, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.

And if you’re willing to help keep the podcast ad- and paywall-free, please click on the donate button or visit https://coff.ee/kohnszone. Thanks!

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When you look at student transcripts (rather than at self-reports), it’s less clear that average grades are rising over time. And even if some grades are higher, that doesn’t mean they’re “inflated” (i.e., undeserved). But many conservative critics don’t seem troubled by their inability to prove those claims; they’re indignant whenever a lot of kids get high grades, as if that outcome were inherently objectionable. Four troubling assumptions inform their outrage: that higher grades imply lower standards; that a teacher’s job is to sort students (rather than to help everyone succeed); that stringent grading motivates students (which conflates extrinsic with intrinsic motivation and is unsupported by data); and that students should be pitted against each other in a race for artificially scarce high grades (so that no matter how well everyone does, there must always be losers). If there is a crisis in education, it’s not how many students get A’s — it’s how many think the point of school is to get A’s (rather than to learn).

RESOURCES:

Lester H. Hunt, ed., Grade Inflation: Academic Standards in Higher Education (SUNY Press, 2008) — https://tinyurl.com/3phxfp5j

Alfie Kohn, “Can Everyone Be Excellent?”, New York Times, June 16, 2019 — https://www.alfiekohn.org/article/excellence/

A note from Alfie Kohn:

If you’re enjoying Kohn’s Zone, please tell other people about it.

If you have feedback about an episode, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.

And if you’re willing to do your part to keep the podcast ad- and paywall-free, please click on the donate button or visit https://coff.ee/kohnszone. Thanks!

Please click the button below to donate.

PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio