In the United States, meritocracy looms large. Proponents argue that one should earn wealth and prestige through hard work, intelligence, and ability. However, any defender of meritocracy should contend with its shortcomings. Lauren Rivera is the Peter G. Peterson Chair in Corporate Ethics at Northwestern University’s Kellogg School, and the author of Pedigree: How Elite Students Get Elite Jobs, a book-length study of hiring practices at elite banks, law firms, and consulting companies. What she documents are processes that often fail to reward the most deserving candidates and perpetuate existing privileges.

In this conversation with host Steven Durlauf, Rivera lays out the case against meritocracy as it is currently understood, citing her work in Pedigree as well as other research that shows supposedly meritocratic systems failing women, racial minorities, and people with disabilities.