John is joined by Christian Athanasoulas, KPMG’s Global Head of International Tax and M&A Tax and U.S. Tax Practice Leader – Services.  They discuss the groundbreaking shift in the U.S. legal industry arising from Arizona’s decision to allow non-lawyers to have ownership interests in law firms.  This move aligns the U.S. with countries like the U.K. and Australia, where non-lawyers have been permitted to own law firms for years.  KPMG has successfully operated legal practices in over 80 countries, but U.S. regulations previously prevented it from offering legal services alongside its consulting, tax, and advisory work.  Arizona’s new rules allow KPMG to offer the non-legal services it typically offers clients together with related legal services performed by the new law firm.  Previously, KPMG’s clients would have to retain law firms with no formal ties to KPMG for those services.  Christian led the effort to establish KPMG Law US, a wholly owned Arizona law firm under the KPMG umbrella.  KPMG Law US is an independent LLC with Arizona-licensed lawyers and a compliance officer to ensure adherence to legal ethics rules.  Although owned by KPMG, the law firm maintains autonomy.  It can assist clients with legal matters such as contract integration and regulatory compliance.  KPMG Law US leverages its parent company’s technological advancements, including AI-driven contract analysis and process automation, to improve efficiency in the provision of legal services.  The new law firm will not engage in litigation.  For matters outside of Arizona, it will co-counsel with lawyers admitted in the appropriate jurisdiction.  While Arizona is currently the only state permitting non-lawyer ownership of law firms, other states are exploring the possibility of passing similar laws.  The creation of KPMG Law US could signal broader changes in the legal profession, potentially reshaping traditional law firm structures.

Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm
Host: John B. Quinn
Producer: Alexis Hyde
Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by John Nadolenco, Managing Partner of Mayer Brown’s Los Angeles office and Kelly Kramer, partner in Mayer Brown’s Washington, D.C. office.  They discuss how John and Kelly won an eleven-year legal battle over the Bahia Emerald, the largest emerald in history.  The 789-pound gemstone was illegally mined in Bahia, Brazil and smuggled into the U.S.  The emerald first entered the U.S. in San Jose, California where the importers falsely declared it to be a piece of concrete with no value.  It later surfaced in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina, was transported several more times, and was eventually seized in Las Vegas by the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department in 2014 when one party seeking to claim the emerald reported it stolen.  This led to an action in Los Angeles Superior Court to determine the rightful owner.  When news accounts of the action reached Brazil, the government contacted John and Kelly to intervene.  They worked with the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) which filed a federal case in the District of Columbia invoking a little-known provision from the Patriot Act, which allowed the emerald to be frozen pending forfeiture.  Meanwhile, Brazilian courts convicted those who illegally mined and exported the gemstone and, after years of appeals, issued a final forfeiture order.  The DOJ then moved to enforce the Brazilian ruling, ultimately securing the emerald.  The emerald is now set to be repatriated and displayed in a museum in Rio de Janeiro, bringing an end to one of the most extraordinary asset recovery cases in modern history.

Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm
Host: John B. Quinn
Producer: Alexis Hyde
Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Shawn Fagan, the Chief Legal Officer of Citadel LLC, and a key legal figure at Citadel Securities. Citadel is the most profitable hedge fund globally while Citadel Securities is a leading market maker, processing nearly one-third of U.S. equities and options trades. They discuss Shawn’s insights into the unique legal challenges of these rapidly growing organizations. Shawn has essentially four clients: Citadel, Citadel Securities, founder Ken Griffin, and Griffin’s family office. His responsibilities extend beyond legal oversight to include regulatory affairs and compliance and reflect the complexities of modern finance. Shawn’s journey to Citadel was unconventional. He started as a litigator at Bartlett Beck, a boutique trial firm, where he spent nearly half his time in trial. He participated in high-profile cases, including Bush v. Gore, but ultimately realized that trial work was not his passion. A chance meeting with Ken Griffin led to an in-house opportunity at Citadel, where he has been for 20 years. In that time, Citadel has grown from 1,000 employees with $12 billion in AUM to 4,900 employees with $65 billion in AUM. The focus of his role at Citadel is building the right teams to meet the demands of rapidly growing markets around the world, developing technology to ensure regulatory compliance across billions of transactions every day, and maintaining consistent standards in an organization that is growing as rapidly as Citadel. Citadel has engaged in several high-profile legal battles, including lawsuits against the SEC and IRS, reflecting Citadel’s willingness to challenge regulations it views as unreasonable and unduly burdensome. In retaining outside counsel, Shawn looks for lawyers with a strategic vision who can articulate a clear path to winning cases.

Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm
Host: John B. Quinn
Producer: Alexis Hyde
Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by David Elsberg, the Founding Partner of two law firms, most recently Elsberg, Baker & Maruri.  They discuss the experience of starting a law firm, including the motivations, challenges, and rewards of building a law firm from the ground up.  David is a former Quinn Emanuel partner.  He was inspired to start his own firms by the accounts of John and other Quinn Emanuel partners of the satisfaction they felt from building something new.  He wanted the challenge of starting a firm and learning the business side of legal practice.  Although running a law firm requires a different skill set from practicing law, starting a law firm is not particularly difficult compared to other businesses.  Success depends primarily on assembling the right people.  At first, David was intimidated by the non-legal aspects of starting a business, such as setting up payroll and office infrastructure, but found that hiring skilled professionals made the process manageable.  The most critical factor for success is selecting lawyers who are not only talented, but work well together.  Before starting a new firm, founders should carefully disengage from their current firm.  They need to walk a tightrope in how they communicate their departure to their current firm’s management, colleagues, and clients.  Boutique litigation firms now attract high quality associates because they offer young lawyers more trial experience and closer client relationships.  Many clients also appreciate the hands-on approach of a smaller firm without the bureaucracy of a large organization.  David’s firm prioritizes trial work, handling high-stakes disputes, particularly in finance.  He has found that, while it involves risk, the rewards of independence and creativity in a start-up firm are significant.

Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm
Host: John B. Quinn
Producer: Alexis Hyde
Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

In the final episode in this series recorded before a live audience in China, John is joined by Richard Ma, Founder of the Dahui law firm; Xiao Liu, Quinn Emanuel’s Chair of China Practice and Chief Representative of the Beijing Office; and Yixuan Zhu, partner in Quinn Emanuel’s Beijing office.  They discuss building their respective firms, establishing their firms’ cultures, global expansion strategies, and challenges in cross-border legal practice.  Dahui was established to better serve clients, particularly in fast-evolving new economy industries like technology, media, telecommunications, and healthcare.  Dahui adopted a boutique approach—being the best at what it did and providing full-service legal support to its clients.  Expanding carefully, the firm analyzes whether expanding into a new city will assist its clients and whether it can attract top tier local talent.  The Chinese legal market is also trending towards firms expanding into “second-tier” Chinese cities such as Wuhan, Nanjing, and Chongqing where an increasing number of disputes arise.  Quinn Emanuel’s global expansion has been largely talent-driven and opportunistic, seeking exceptional lawyers to open offices rather than following a predetermined plan.  In addition, the globalization of business has led to a globalization of disputes with proceedings in multiple jurisdictions and key witnesses living around the world.  Firms with talented lawyers throughout the world are simply better suited to effectively represent clients in such cases.  Both firms work to maintain firm cultures that emphasizes competitiveness and client service.  Quinn Emanuel has a tradition of sending firm wide "victory emails" to celebrate case wins and instill a results-driven mindset.  Dahui values commitment to precision and professionalism, ensuring high standards in legal work.  On the evolving Chinese legal market, Dahui bridges the gap between international clients and China’s regulatory landscape, correcting misconceptions and ensuring successful investments and dispute resolutions.  As Chinese companies continue to expand globally, demand for international dispute resolution will likely rise.  Legal complexities stemming from U.S.-China tensions will also likely provide opportunities for experienced litigators to navigate shifting regulatory and geopolitical landscapes.

Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm
Host: John B. Quinn
Producer: Alexis Hyde
Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

 In the second of a series of podcasts recorded before a live audience in China, John is joined by three in-house lawyers from major Chinese and multinational corporations: Victor Shen, Chief Legal Officer of Henkel China; Liu Zhen, Vice President Legal Department of Xiaomi; and Li Hua, senior legal counsel of a Fortune 500 energy company.  They discuss intellectual property, regulatory and compliance issues in China as well as the evolving legal market. Non-practicing entities (NPEs) or “patent trolls”, which do not share the interests that patent owners and implementors have in maintaining a sustainable IP ecosystem, are a problem in China just as they are in the West. Building a strong legal strategy for IP involves maintaining inter-disciplinary teams that combine legal talent with key scientists within the company.  IP disputes increasingly involve proceedings in both the U.S. and Europe.  Antitrust issues do not arise in IP cases nearly as much in China as they do in the U.S. Regulatory compliance issues, especially regarding U.S. export controls, sanctions, and data security laws, are very hot topics in China. Foreign investment restrictions and lengthy review processes in multiple jurisdictions have forced companies to abandon deals. In-house lawyers need to be mentally agile and proactive.  Effective legal teams must also develop strong internal compliance frameworks and maintain close relationships with regulators.  Western law firms have withdrawn from China because of reduced foreign investment,  the increasing capabilities of Chinese firms, and the need to retain local Chinese lawyers to represent clients in court or before regulatory agencies.

Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm
Host: John B. Quinn
Producer: Alexis Hyde
Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

In the first of a series of podcasts recorded before a live audience in China, John is joined by Professor Gao Xiqing, the former Vice Chairman, President and Chief Investment Officer of the China Investment Corporation, the largest Chinese Sovereign Wealth. They discuss Prof. Gao’s extraordinary career from his early days building a railroad in rural China during the Cultural Revolution to earning his JD at Duke and becoming one of the first Chinese lawyers to pass the New York bar and work at a major Wall Street firm. Prof. Gao’s work on Wall Street led to him explaining, as a third year associate, the causes of the Black Friday stock market crash to Chinese business and government leaders. Later he was called back to China to design its first stock exchange and the Chinese regulator equivalent to the SEC. They also discuss Prof. Gao’s role in running the China Investment Corporation (CIC), one of the world's largest sovereign wealth funds. CIC invests only in private businesses outside of China, purchases less than a 10% stake in those companies, and splits its investments roughly evenly between publicly traded companies and private equity. Finally, they discuss Prof. Gao’s perspective on Sino-American relations. He believes that, viewed in perspective, the two countries have grown much closer since the days of the Cold War and that common cultural values, such as the drive to work hard and achieve, will lead to closer relations in the future. 

Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm
Host: John B. Quinn
Producer: Alexis Hyde
Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by renowned criminal defense lawyer attorney Ben Brafman, Founder of Brafman & Associates. They discuss Ben’s 45-year career, trial strategies, and reflections on the criminal justice system. Ben, who has tried more than 75 cases, gained prominence in the 1980s and 90s when he defended major criminal trials, particularly organized crime and white-collar cases. He was in trial almost continuously for 11 years. He attributes his success to meticulous preparation and emphasizes that there are no shortcuts in trial practice. Ben describes the evolution of criminal trials over the last 40 years, noting that trials are shorter and less frequent today due to an increase in plea deals. John and Ben also discuss trial strategies. Many cases are won on cross. A successful cross requires deep knowledge of every piece of evidence in the case. He describes one case in which he essentially memorized months of taped conversations to dismantle a key witness’s credibility.  Ben often uses cross-examinations of prosecution witnesses to establish parts of the defense and contradict the testimony of other witnesses. Most cases today are won or lost on emails or texts because they are so prevalent and an incriminating email or text by a defendant cannot be discredited on cross-examination. Ben also reflects on some of his most notable cases, including the acquittal of Sean "Diddy" Combs on gun and bribery charges in 2001 and the acquittal of nightclub mogul Peter Gation after an eight-week racketeering trial. Criminal defense often takes an emotional toll on the criminal defense lawyer, who is witness to the devastating impact criminal prosecutions have on families and personal reputations. Finally, John and Ben discuss criminal justice reform. Ben criticizes mandatory sentencing minimums laws and advocates for judicial discretion to prevent unjustly harsh sentences. 

Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm
Host: John B. Quinn
Producer: Alexis Hyde
Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Michael Ng, partner at Kobre & Kim.  They discuss the $604 million verdict Michael recently won in a trade secrets case in Alameda County Superior Court in California.  The punitive damages phase of the trial is expected to take place in the Spring. The case centered on allegations that Phillips 66 misappropriated Propel Fuels’ trade secrets while conducting due diligence for a potential acquisition that ultimately did not proceed.  Michael explains that Propel Fuels, a pioneer in renewable fuels, accused Phillips 66 of using proprietary data, including financial models, market research, and operational strategies, to replicate Propel’s business.  Despite Phillips 66's claims that it had no need for Propel’s information, Michael and his team demonstrated that the trade secrets were not only accessed but directly used to launch Phillips 66’s renewable fuels business.  The evidence Michael’s team presented included internal Phillips 66 documents and testimony that showed the rapid deployment of Phillips 66’s business mirroring Propel’s proprietary model.  Michael reviews the strategic decisions he made that led to the verdict, including choosing to proceed in state court rather than federal court, providing a detailed pretrial trade secrets disclosure, selecting jurors with technical expertise, and proactively calling a key defense witness during Propel’s case-in-chief.  He also describes how the trial team effectively explained the complex market and regulatory dynamics of renewable fuels through their clients’ testimony and expert witnesses.  John and Michael also discuss Propel’s damages case, which was based on an unjust enrichment theory that emphasized the head start Phillips 66 gained by leveraging Propel’s trade secrets.  Michael describes internal Phillips 66 communications stating that Propel’s information gave Phillips 66 a ten year head start on entering the renewable fuels market.  Finally, John and Michael also discuss broader trends in trade secrets litigation, including the growing importance of trade secret law in emerging technologies like AI and machine learning, where trade secrets often offer more protection than patents. 

Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm
Host: John B. Quinn
Producer: Alexis Hyde
Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Catrin Griffiths and Christian Smith, the Editor-in-Chief and Litigation Editor of The Lawyer.  They discuss legal journalism in the UK.  John, Catrin and Christian agree that UK legal reporting is more analytical and critical of law firm strategies than U.S. legal journalism.  They attribute this to the UK’s centralized legal market in London and a British journalistic culture that favors accountability and critical analysis.  They explain that The Lawyer, originally a print magazine, has evolved into a digital platform combining news, data, and insight, providing in-depth analysis of law firms' performance and strategy.  The publication operates like a financial news outlet dedicated to the legal sector, reflecting the industry’s significant contribution to the UK economy.  It covers everything from major legal trends to firm strategies and even lighter, cultural stories within firms.  They also discuss the growing dominance of U.S. law firms in London, noting that American firms often outpace UK firms, perhaps due to longer working hours and more streamlined management.  Catrin explains that UK firms historically thrived with strong infrastructure and global networks, though they now face challenges adapting to market changes.  They also address cultural differences, such as the early retirement age at UK firms, contrasting with U.S. firms where partners often work well into their 70s.  Catrin and Christian also explain the importance of maintaining authenticity when law firms engage with journalists.  They advise against corporate jargon and encourage honest dialogue.  Finally, they discuss how stories about small quirky aspects of a firm’s culture can often reflect broader trends and resonate with readers.

Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm
Host: John B. Quinn
Producer: Alexis Hyde
Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi