Yascha Mounk and Mark Leonard discuss how the West can defend itself without America.

Mark Leonard is co-founder and director of the European Council on Foreign Relations, the first pan-European think–tank. His latest book is Surviving Chaos: Geopolitics When the Rules Fail.

In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Mark Leonard discuss why Europe is behind, the global impact of China’s rise, and whether Europe can learn to defend itself without the United States.

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Podcast production by Mickey Freeland and Leonora Barclay.

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