On this episode of Melody and Friends, Melody speaks with author and speaker Debbie Mirza about covert passive aggressive narcissists and why they can be so difficult to detect in a relationship. Debbie shares her story of being married to a covert narcissist for almost 22 years and talks about her own healing as she went through a time of isolation. She and Melody discuss the signs to look for in someone who may be a covert narcissist, their different methods of manipulating their victims and what you can do to escape that relationship and begin your journey of healing and restoration. Our listeners can get in contact with Debbie and purchase her books including The Covert Passive Aggressive Narcissist on her website, debbiemirza.com

Who is Debbie Mirza?

Debbie is a best-selling author who is passionate about helping people heal after narcissistic abuse. She has personally experienced decades of covert narcissistic abuse and has a wealth of understanding on this topic stemming from her own life experience, education, and research. Debbie has been interviewed on several podcasts and online conferences. She has deep empathy for those who have dealt with this damaging form of narcissism. 

She has created online courses to help with the healing process, one specifically on parenting when your ex is a covert narcissist, and one with helpful tips for starting your own in person support group. During her own healing, she went through a time of much isolation where she spent a lot of time in nature and at home taking care of her wounded heart. It was during this time that she wrote and recorded songs that would bring her and others calm, love, and tenderness.

Things We Talked about in This Episode

• Debbie’s experience with finding out her husband was a covert passive aggressive narcissist. 
• What it’s like living with someone who has CPAN and how to identify some of the traits (well liked, well respected, but they are very chameleon-like).
• The differences between an overt and a covert narcissist. When you’re with a covert narcissist there’s always a question of “who are you really?” 
• How covert narcissists use silent rage rather than overt yelling and anger.
• The three stages a victim goes through in a relationship with a covert narcissist.
• Cover Narcissists ability to sabotage important days and them offering to “settle”. 
•  Traits that are common in individuals that are missing from covert narcissists
• What gaslighting actually is in a relationship and what that looks like with covert narcissists
• How to escape those relationships and begin healing after that abuse.

On this episode of Melody and Friends, Melody sits down with author and professor, Chuck DeGroat, to discuss narcissism in the church. Chuck discusses the different forms narcissism often manifests itself in leaders of the church, what characteristics a narcissist will often display, and ways that they often try to redirect or lead conversations about their behavior. Chuck then explains why narcissism seems to be such a predominant issue in the church and what we as a congregation can begin to do in addressing it.

Who is Chuck DeGroat?

Chuck DeGroat is Professor of Pastoral Care and Christian Spirituality at Western Theological Seminary, MI, and Senior Fellow at Newbigin House of Studies, San Francisco. He is an author, speaker, consultant, and therapist. Chuck is committed to spiritual and emotional formation for the sake of mission. His experience is represented in a fluid combination of pastoral ministry and seminary training for 20 years.  He has served several church plants as a teaching pastor and has started two church-based clinical counseling centers.  Most recently, he was a teaching pastor at City Church San Francisco, where he co-founded Newbigin House of Studies, an urban and missional training center with offerings through Western Theological Seminary.

Things We Talk About In This Episode:

• What is narcissism?
• Why is narcissism such a predominant issue in the church?
• How to approach and deal with someone exhibiting narcissistic behavior
• How Chuck DeGroat works to help both narcissists and those affected by narcissistic behavior 

Our listeners can learn more about Chuck DeGroat, access his online courses and sign up for soul care intensives by visiting his website chuckdegroat.net. 

Our listeners can also pick up a copy of his book, When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community From Emotional and Spiritual Abuse, at the Amazon link here: https://www.amazon.com/When-Narcissism-Comes-Church-Community-ebook/dp/B07ZG79HHF

In the inaugural episode of Melody & Friends, Melody sits down with author and abuse recovery coach, Sarah McDugal, to discuss helping women who have been victims of toxic, dangerous relationships. She also explains how we can begin to discover the systems of abuse that are often used in abusive relationships so that everyone can identify when abusers are beginning to create these toxic environments. Sarah breaks down ways women can identify these systems so they can feel more empowered to discern and navigate these situations so they can begin to live their lives in freedom and safety.

Who is Sarah McDugal?

Sarah McDugal graduated from Andrews University in 2006 with her masters degree in accounting. She is now a brand strategist, author, and leadership speaker. She designs Hollywood-quality brand campaigns for companies who value their impact on people as much as their bottom line. 

Sarah is the author of ONE FACE: Shed the Mask, Own Your Values, and Lead Wisely. She writes and speaks on the leadership topics of decision-making, core values, and redemption. A lover of international vegetarian cuisine, avid reader and globetrotter, Sarah has visited or worked in more than 40 countries. She's also a homeschooling single mom who never has enough time to do #allthethings, and sometimes leaves dirty dishes in the sink longer than she probably should.

Things We Talk About In This Episode:

• How Sarah McDugal began working with abused women
• How Abusive Relationships Start and What to Look For as Toxic Relationships take shape
• What the Abusive System looks like and How Women can safely and effectively begin moving out of it.
• Where women can find community and support after suffering a toxic relationship
• What is Godly, Masculine love supposed to look like?

Our listeners can learn more about Sarah McDugal and access her resources at her website https://www.wildernesstowild.com/