Millennials Are Killing Capitalism

Millennials Are Killing Capitalism

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Millennials Are Killing Capitalism episodes

  • Another Look at Losurdo's Stalin Featuring Henry Hakamäki, Salvatore Engel-Di Mauro, David Peat, and Ben Stahnke

    In July of 2023, we published a conversation on the Iskra Books translation of Domenico Losurdo's Stalin: History and Critique of a Black Legend with Henry Hakamäki and Salvatore Engel-Di Mauro (book/listen to part 1 here).

    We found the book really fascinating and had lots of questions, so we were only able to cover about half of our questions in our first conversation. This conversation is essentially the part 2 of that conversation, in which Henry and Salvatore are joined by Iskra editors David Peat and Ben Stankhe. Of course by the time we got around to recording this episode in late October, we were three weeks into Israel's genocidal counterinsurgency campaign against Palestinians, after the heroic uprising known as Al-Aqsa Flood. Obviously, I didn't intend to delay the release of this episode for almost a year, but at the time I kept telling myself there would eventually be a ceasefire and a new normal would be established. One year later that hasn't happened yet, and doesn't necessarily seem and closer than it was a year ago.

    All that is really by way of an apology to Ben, David, Henry, and Salvatore for not getting this episode out sooner. It absolutely warrants your attention and it actually relates in many ways to not only the struggle of Palestinians today, but to all struggles for national liberation, socialism, and communism.

    We also just hosted another conversation on Domenico Losurdo's work last week on our YouTube channel. In that one, Gabriel Rockhill discusses the English translation of Losurdo's 'Western Marxism: How it was Born, How it Died, How it can be Reborn,' which he edited and was just released on Monthly Review Press (book/episode).

    There are a number of references in the episode which I have tried to link in the show notes. First and foremost head over to Iskra books and check out their catalogue of books. As Henry mentions all of their books are available as free pdfs, but I definitely also encourage you to support their work. They're doing really important stuff, and we plan to highlight more of their work going forward.

    I've also linked a conversation we had a couple months ago on another Iskra Books release Ruehl Muller's Building a People's Art which is about the role of art and artists in the Vietnamese liberation struggle (book/episode)

    As Henry and Salvatore mention at the end of the episode, Communism: The Highest Stage of Ecology, which is an agroecological history of the Soviet Union and Cuba, which will be out via Iskra later this year. You can follow all of Iskra's releases on Iskrabooks.org and just a reminder that free PDFs are available for this book and all of their others on their website.

    We plan to highlight more Iskra Books publications going forward. Including a soon to be scheduled episode on a book they published on Yugoslavian film, and on October 28th at 10 AM EDT we'll host Conor McCabe to discuss The Lost & Early Writings of James Connolly, the Irish revolutionary (book/livestream)

    And lastly, this is our third audio episode of October, and we are trying to get back to releasing audio content with more regularity. To that end it would be really helpful if some of our listeners who do not yet support the show on patreon, became patrons for as little as $1 a month. The main purpose of becoming a patron is of course to support our work, but we do have a recent patreon-exclusive episode with several folks from Black Liberation Media including Jared Ball from IMIXWHATILIKE, Renee Johnston from Saturday's with Renee, and Geechee Yaw from Earn Your Liberation. Shout-out to all of them and if you become a patron of the show you will get access to that recent conversation which primarily focuses on social media, YouTube and censorship. Sign up at patreon.com/millennialsarekillingcapitalism

    Guest bios:

    Henry Hakamäki is best known as the co-host of the Guerrilla History podcast. And of course among many other things, he is also the co-translator and editor of the book we will be discussing today. You can follow him on Twitter at @huck1995.

    Salvatore Engel-Di Mauro is Professor at the Geography Department of SUNY New Paltz and is chief editor for the journal Capitalism Nature Socialism. His book Socialist States and the Environment is available from Pluto Press.

    Ben Stahnke is an educator, organizer, and artist working on the intersection of political ecology, education, and print. Ben holds a Ph.D. and M.S. in environmental studies, a M.A. in political philosophy, and is currently pursuing a second doctorate in education.

    David Peat serves as an editor and copy-editor for both Iskra Books and Peace, Land, and Bread, is a student of Marxism-Leninism from Lancashire, England, who organises with Red Fightback. He has a B.A. in philosophy and is interested in political economy, ecology, and revolutionary education.

    1 hr 55 min
  • The Myth of Medical Neutrality & Limitations of Biomedical Explanations In Settler Colonial Societies with Dr. Mary Turfah

    In this interview, we are joined by Mary Turfah who discusses a couple of her recent articles including the broader context of medical neutrality and the targeting of healthcare workers in Gaza. She addresses the historical context of medical neutrality, which emerged in the mid-1800s as a means to ensure medical immunity on the battlefield. Turfah explains how this concept has racialized limitations, particularly in colonial contexts where colonizers often do not need the medical facilities of the colonized and thus feel justified in targeting them. Turfah highlights the systematic targeting of healthcare workers in Gaza by Israeli forces, noting that nearly 500 healthcare workers had been killed as of May 15th, often through targeted bombings or summary executions. She emphasizes that this targeting is part of a broader strategy to control the Palestinian population by eliminating those who can provide life-saving care. This strategy not only cripples the current medical infrastructure but also undermines the future training and development of medical professionals in Gaza. The interview also touches on the personal experiences of healthcare workers in Gaza, who often have to change out of their scrubs to avoid being targeted and face abductions and other forms of violence. Turfah underscores the importance of recognizing the humanity and professional integrity of these healthcare workers, who are often put on the defensive in Western media narratives that seek to justify Israeli actions. Turfah also problematizes the psychological and biomedical explanations used to justify the behavior of Israeli Zionists, arguing that the roots of this violence lie in the Zionist ideology and colonial project, not individual psychosis. We conclude by reflecting on Mary's experiences as a surgical resident and the broader implications for medical professionals working in conflict zones. You can follow Mary Turfah on Twitter and Instagram at @MaryTurfah to keep up with her work and insights. Mary Turfah is a writer and resident physician trained in Middle Eastern South Asian and African Studies at Columbia, where her research focused on trauma memory and the margins of the Nakba. She has written about medical neutrality and settler psychosis for The Baffler, the (mis)uses of Edward Said's famous 'permission to narrate' for Protean, the destruction of medical infrastructure in Gaza for The Nation, and other things for other places. She is working on an essay collection about medicine and imperialism, explored through the life of a Lebanese ob-gyn who inspired her to pursue medicine.

    Giving direct aid to people in Gaza is a way of directly intervening against the genocidal policy of zionist settler colonialism and US imperialism. We recommend the Sameer Project as a a grassroots direct-aid organization that provides tents, water, food and medical aid to Palestinians in Gaza, including areas of the north where the Zionist entity does not allow NGOs to function. We'll link a recent livestream we hosted with Hala from the Sameer Project as well as links to their funds.

    To support our work become a patron of the show for as little as $1 per month. We will have a patreon-member only release tomorrow (October 8th)

    This episode is edited & produced by Aidan Elias. Music, as always, is by Televangel

    Links: https://www.maryturfah.com/ Running Amok The feeds of the IDF depict what Zionism can't see No Side to Fall In Medical neutrality in Gaza What It's Like on the Front Lines of Gaza's Hospital Hell Talking to Dr. Tanya Haj-Hassan

    1 hr 35 min
  • US Imperialism, Israeli Settler Colonialism, & "Reconfiguring the Region" with Fathi Nimer and Abdaljawad Omar

    In this episode Fathi Nimer and Abdaljawad Omar rejoin the podcast to talk about recent events including the Israeli attacks on Lebanon, the assassination of Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, and the Iranian retailatory strikes, which took place on October 1st. We conclude by talking a bit about the meaning of October 7th, 2023 one year later. Here is a video version of the episode if you prefer to watch the conversation.

    Despite the difficulty in fully drawing meaning from something we're still in the midst of, Fathi and Abboud do offer excellent analysis of the current state of the war, and of the importance of Operation Al-Aqsa Flood.

    Fathi Nimer is Al-Shabaka's Palestine policy fellow. He previously worked as a research associate with the Arab World for Research and Development, a teaching fellow at Birzeit University, and a program officer with the Ramallah Center for Human Rights Studies. Fathi holds a master's degree in political science from Heidelberg University and is the co-founder of DecolonizePalestine.com, a knowledge repository for the Palestinian question. Fathi's research revolves around political economy and contentious politics. His current focus is on food sovereignty, agroecology, and the resistance economy in Palestine.

    Abdaljawad Omar is a writer, analyst, and lecturer based in Ramallah, Palestine. He has written extensively in Arabic. In English Abboud has contributed to Electronic Intifada, Mondoweiss, and Ebb Magazine among other outlets. This is his 13th episode on MAKC. All of those episodes are collected in this playlist.

    Giving direct aid to people in Gaza is a way of directly intervening against the genocidal policy of zionist settler colonialism and US imperialism. We recommend the Sameer Project as a a grassroots direct-aid organization that provides tents, water, food and medical aid to Palestinians in Gaza, including areas of the north where the Zionist entity does not allow NGOs to function. We'll link a recent livestream we hosted with Hala from the Sameer Project as well as links to their funds. We also just passed our 7th anniversary at Millennials Are Killing Capitalism, this episode today marks our 275th audio episode of MAKC. In addition, in just the last year we've hosted 126 livestreams on our YouTube channel. With me primarily operating in the video realm over the past year in order to respond more quickly to developing events, we have had to pay for some outside support on some of the audio production but also that process has slowed a bit. Our most recent payment for October from patreon was our lowest level of support from patrons since May of 2023. There are a variety of factors contributing to that I'm sure, but if people are able to become patrons of the show we can really use your support to support what we're already doing and to pay for production work as well to get more audio episodes released. Join for as little as $1 a month at patreon.com/millennialsarekillingcapitalism.

    We will have a patreon member exclusive episode this week on the contradictions of using Youtube as a platform for this work. Jared Ball, Renee Johnston, and Geechee Yaw who I recently did a two part video collaboration with about elections, will join us for that conversation as well. I recently participated in a two part discussion with them on elections which we held on MAKC & Black Liberation Media. We're hosting our discussion on censorship on patreon so we can speak totally freely about YouTube as a platform.

    2 hr 7 min
  • The Perils of Black Liberalism with Too Black & Momodou Taal

    In this episode we discuss the role of Black liberalism in the US political landscape, particularly its relationship with the Democratic Party. And how Black liberalism often neglects the interests of the black working poor in service of the ruling class. We contemplate the influence of social media on political discourse and the Black elite's capturing and commodification of Black cultural expressions in service of empire at the expense of the global working-poor. We touch on Black apathy towards internationalism and passive or active support for imperialism and how this behavior of betraying the interests of the oppressed is learned domestically before being applied internationally. We touch on the petit-bourgeois character of electoral politics and how the poor are largely disappeared in mainstream political discussions and processes. Momodou Taal is a PhD student in the Africana department at Cornell university. He is also the host of The Malcolm Effect podcast. Too Black is a poet, member of Black Alliance For Peace, host of The Black Myths Podcast which can be found on Black Liberation Media, he's also the author of Laundering Black Rage, and one of the organizers of the Campaign to Free the Pendleton 2. If you like what we do and want to support our ability to have more conversations like this. Please consider becoming a Patron. You can do so for as little as a 1 Dollar a month. We bring you these conversations totally independently with no corporate, state, or grant funding. You can do that at patreon.com/millennialsarekillingcapitalism

    Too Black's recent essay: Unburdened by Palestine: Shedding Black liberalism for anti-imperialism Momodou Taal's recent essay: Dear Black liberals: Palestine TikTok activists aren't the enemy There is also a video version of this episode which was released by Black Liberation Media.
    2 hr 10 min
  • "We're Not Trying to Make a Better Tomb" - Lydia Pelot-Hobbs' Prison Capital: Mass Incarceration and Struggles for Abolition Democracy in Louisiana

    In this episode we speak with Lydia Pelot-Hobbs, about her book Prison Capital: Mass Incarceration and Struggles for Abolition Democracy in Louisiana.

    Lydia Pelot-Hobbs is an assistant professor of Geography and African American & Africana Studies at the University of Kentucky. In addition to Prison Capital, she is the co-editor of The Jail Is Everywhere: Fighting the New Geography of Mass Incarceration (Verso Books 2024). Her research, writing, and teaching is grounded in over 15 years of abolitionist organizing and political education facilitation in New Orleans and beyond.

    Every year between 1998 to 2020 except one, Louisiana had the highest per capita rate of incarceration in the nation and thus the world. This book is the first detailed account of Louisiana's unprecedented turn to mass incarceration from 1970 to 2020.

    In this discussion we talk about the dynamics that contributed to that history. It's a fascinating conversation that gets into Louisiana's shifting political economy, the policing of New Orleans, the importance of sheriff power in Louisiana, the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, and various forms of anti-carceral organizing from the streets of New Olreans to Louisiana State Penitentiary, better known as Angola.

    Massive Bookshop has Prison Capital if people are interested in picking up a copy and delving more deeply into this conversation, as I mentioned a couple times during the episode there is a lot of really interesting analysis in the book that we didn't have time to adequately address in this conversation.

    I would be remiss if I didn't say we're releasing this conversation during Black August, find some local or online political education about that, write to political prisoners, get involved in their campaigns.

    If you want to support our work please consider contributing a $1 a month or more to our patreon at patreon.com/millennialsarekillingcapitalism. We do have a Trinity of Fundamentals study group that starts this coming week and you can find details about that on our patreon as well.

    Links:

    Prison Capital: Mass Incarceration and Struggles for Abolition Democracy in Louisiana.

    The Jail Is Everywhere: Fighting the New Geography of Mass Incarceration

    Trinity of Fundamentals study group

    2 hr 16 min
  • Mainstreaming Queer Politics and the Black Family, State, and Capital With Roderick Ferguson

    In this episode, we speak with Roderick Ferguson about two of Josh's all-time favorite books, One-Dimensional Queer and Aberrations in Black: Toward a Queer of Color Critique.

    The former which problematizes single-issue politics that came to dominate, disrupt, capture, and destroy the gay liberation movement—and has continued to plague queer (anti-) politics today.

    And the latter which discusses the regulation of sexual difference and its role in circumscribing Black-African culture.

    Throughout the conversation, we discuss the concept of one-dimensionality—which Ferguson borrows from Herbert Marcuse—and how the mobilization of the concept in queer struggles "[drove] a wedge between queer politics and other progressive formations." We also discuss how the structural realities imposed through capitalism, racialized violence and neglect, have made the nuclear family unit a "material impossibility" for non-white people—namely Black-African people.

    Roderick A. Ferguson is the William Robertson Coe Professor of Women's, Gender, and Sexuality Studies and American Studies at Yale University.

    He is also faculty in the Yale Prison Education Initiative. He is the author of One-Dimensional Queer, We Demand: The University and Student Protests, The Reorder of Things: The University and Its Pedagogies of Minority Difference, and Aberrations in Black: Toward a Queer of Color Critique. He is the co-editor with Grace Hong of the anthology Strange Affinities: The Gender and Sexual Politics of Comparative Racialization. He is also co-editor with Erica Edwards and Jeffrey Ogbar of Keywords of African American Studies (NYU, 2018). He is the 2020 recipient of the Kessler Award from the Center for LGBTQ Studies (CLAGS).

    If you like what we do and want to support our ability to have more conversations like this. Please consider becoming a patron. You can do so for as little as a $1 a month.

    This episode was produced and edited by Aidan Elias

    1 hr 31 min
  • "Eating the Apple of the World" - Social Investigation and Class Analysis with Dani Manibat

    In this episode we welcome Dani Manibat to the podcast.

    Dani Manibat is an organizer in the National Democratic Movement in the Philippines and this article was written for the journal Material. Recently we hosted another conversation with J. Moufawad-Paul on Settler Ideology on our YouTube channel.

    A little bit about Material from their website:

    "Material's editorial framework is guided by a Maoist perspective, and so, this journal is a platform for contending schools of thought with non-antagonistic contradictions—for revolutionary communist thought: the kind of thinking that agrees capitalism cannot be reformed, that actual revolutionary work is required, and that collaboration with any kind of liberal or conservative thinking is exactly that, collaboration."

    Dani's essay, "The Marxist Framework and Attitude on Social Investigation and Class Analysis" is available for free online and I've linked it in the show notes. I have also included a link to Foreign Languages Press, which is a great press for Marxist work, particularly from the Maoist perspective, but also including many classics of Marxism and Marxism-Leninism in their webshop.

    From the article description: "This essay is an ongoing product of discussions and conferences among Filipino Marxist and national democratic youth organizers as we attempt to deepen our understanding of Social Investigation and Class Analysis (SICA) work. It is in this light that not only is there a necessity to underline the importance of SICA work for the Filipino youth, but also to give some pointers on what to look for, what to watch out for, as well as have theoretical discussions on social classes."

    I'll add that this conversation and the essay work well together, you can get more of the theory behind SICA and how one might think about the process perhaps from the essay itself, where as here we have a wider ranging conversation on practice and some examples of how these things might look in the day to day.

    There is a portion of the conversation where Dani references a graphic, I will note that section when we get there. I have uploaded the video from that section of the interview so people can see the graphic that Dani is describing as he is talking about that. And I will link that in the show notes.

    To support our work please become a patreon of the show at patreon.com/millennialsarekillingcapitalism

    Links:

    the video of Dani explaining class alignments

    "The Marxist Framework and Attitude on Social Investigation and Class Analysis"

    Foreign Languages Press

    FLP's webshop.

    Material's webpage

    2 hr 7 min
  • "I Do Not Have to Apologize for Reality" - Joy James on Contextualizing Angela Davis: The Agency and Identity of an Icon
    This is part two of a two-part discussion on two of Joy James' recent books. This part of the discussion is focused on Contextualizing Angela Davis: The Agency and Identity of an Icon Part one of the conversation was on New Bones Abolition: Captive Maternal Agency and the (After)Life of Erica Garner (Common Notions). MAKC Host Josh Briond is joined by special guest hosts Akua N and Noah Tesfaye for this conversation. Joy James is the Ebenezer Fitch Professor of the Humanities at Williams College. A political philosopher who works with organizers seeking social justice and an end to militarism, James is the editor of The Angela Y. Davis Reader; Imprisoned Intellectuals; and co-editor of The Black Feminist Reader. James's most recent books include: In Pursuit of Revolutionary Love; New Bones Abolition: Captive Maternal Agency and the (After)Life of Erica Garner; and, Contextualizing Angela Davis: The Agency and Identity of an Icon. Her forthcoming volumes ENGAGE: Indigenous, Black, Afro-Indigenous Futures and Beyond Cop Cities will be published this summer and fall. James' website and instagram page (@captivematernalstruggles) which we are using to update and archive talks, events, essays, etc. Please feel free to follow and tag us/post collab when the episode is live. Akua N is a Chicago-based doctoral student in education policy studies, exploring the intersection of mass media, counterinsurgency, white supremacy, and schooling in capitalist contexts. Noah Tesfaye is a researcher and organizer based in the Bay Area. His work focuses on the political philosophy of the Republic of New Afrika and New Afrikan Independence Movement, particularly in its relationship to contemporary organizing around self-determination for Black people within the "United States." This episode is edited and produced by Aidan Elias Links: Steinem Papers Pendleton 2 (our episode with links on ways to support/connect) Sekou Odinga & James at the Death Penalty Conference: This is the exchange Prof. James mentioned with the young Black activist and the panel. I have linked the video below with the time stamps
    • The young activist question: (1:55:00)
    • Baba Sekou's Response: (2:08:00)
    • James' Response: (2:16:18)
    How to Live (after we die): On Protest, Social Media, and queer Black death - Logos Journal Slave Rebel or Citizen (Inquest) Our roundtable on Kuwasi Balagoon Marcuse's Most Famous Student: Angela Davis On Critical Theory and German Idealism by Joy James Links for Book Purchasing: New Bones Abolition (2023) Contextualizing Angela Davis (2024) Beyond Cop Cities (August 2024)
    1 hr 6 min
  • New Bones Abolition and the Function of the Captive Maternal with Joy James
    This is part one of a two-part discussion on two of Joy James' recent books. This part of the discussion is focused on New Bones Abolition: Captive Maternal Agency and the (After)Life of Erica Garner (Common Notions) as well as a recent essay How to Live (after we die): On Protest, Social Media, and queer Black death - Logos Journal by Isaiah Blake. MAKC Host Josh Briond is joined by guest hosts Akua N and Noah Tesfaye for this conversation. Joy James is the Ebenezer Fitch Professor of the Humanities at Williams College. A political philosopher who works with organizers seeking social justice and an end to militarism, James is the editor of The Angela Y. Davis Reader; Imprisoned Intellectuals; and co-editor of The Black Feminist Reader. James's most recent books include: In Pursuit of Revolutionary Love; New Bones Abolition: Captive Maternal Agency and the (After)Life of Erica Garner; and, Contextualizing Angela Davis: The Agency and Identity of an Icon. Her forthcoming volumes ENGAGE: Indigenous, Black, Afro-Indigenous Futures and Beyond Cop Cities will be published this summer and fall. James' website and instagram page (@captivematernalstruggles) which we are using to update and archive talks, events, essays, etc. Please feel free to follow and tag us/post collab when the episode is live. Isaiah Blake is an incoming PhD student in Geography at the University of California, Berkeley. As an artist, thinker, and educator, Blake is committed to producing work that prioritizes critical thinking combined with a devotion to Black ways of knowing and being. You can find Isaiah on IG. Akua N is a Chicago-based doctoral student in education policy studies, exploring the intersection of mass media, counterinsurgency, white supremacy, and schooling in capitalist contexts. Noah Tesfaye is a researcher and organizer based in the Bay Area. His work focuses on the political philosophy of the Republic of New Afrika and New Afrikan Independence Movement, particularly in its relationship to contemporary organizing around self-determination for Black people within the "United States." This episode is edited and produced by Aidan Elias Links: Steinem Papers Pendleton 2 (our episode with links on ways to support/connect) Sekou Odinga & James at the Death Penalty Conference: This is the exchange Prof. James mentioned with the young Black activist and the panel. I have linked the video below with the time stamps
    • The young activist question: (1:55:00)
    • Baba Sekou's Response: (2:08:00)
    • James' Response: (2:16:18)
    How to Live (after we die): On Protest, Social Media, and queer Black death - Logos Journal Slave Rebel or Citizen (Inquest) Our roundtable on Kuwasi Balagoon Links for Book Purchasing: New Bones Abolition (2023) Contextualizing Angela Davis (2024) Beyond Cop Cities (August 2024)
    1 hr 4 min
  • "A Formation of Psychological Warfare" - Damien Sojoyner's First Strike: Educational Enclosures in Black Los Angeles

    In this episode Damien Sojoyner returns to the podcast to talk about his book First Strike: Educational Enclosures in Black Los Angeles.

    This episode was recorded in November and unfortunately its release was delayed due to the circumstances of the world today, which have necessitated for us a lot of media work in solidarity with Palestinian resistance, and against the genocide being enacted on Palestinians most visibly and egregiously in Gaza.

    I also had the chance to catch up with Damien Sojoyner at the Archives Unbound conference at UC Santa Barbara a few weeks ago, and you can find a brief interview I conducted with them here.

    This book First Strike (Currently 50% of with the code: MN91620 through June 30th) is one that I had been wanting to discuss with Damien since I learned of it, because it very much relates to various intersecting interests of mine, the Black Radical Tradition, abolition, the prison industrial complex, and public education. Disrupting common framing of a school-to-prison pipeline Sojoyner really examines how we might understand public schools, and different regimes of education as enclosures upon more radical possibilities. And we get into a discussion of the warehousing function of schools, the psychological warfare aspects and more. As there is a lot of connection between this discussion and the discussion we had with Damien last year on his book Against the Carceral Archive, we have linked that in the show notes as well.

    We will have more audio content coming for you later this week as well as more video content on our YouTube channel.

    We've created playlist from the Cedric and Elizabeth Robinson Archives Unbound conference.

    If you appreciate the work we do at Millennials Are Killing Capitalism the best way you can support our work is as always to become a patron of the show. We are still working to find better solutions to getting all of the audio content we have backlogged released to you as quickly as possible. This has meant paying for some additional help in many cases. All that is to say, we really appreciate all of you who have been contributing to our work some of you for many years now. If people are not patrons of the show yet and are able to give $1 a month or more that's deeply appreciated as well. You can become a patron at patreon.com/millennialsarekillingcapitalism

    2 hr 14 min

About Millennials Are Killing Capitalism

From the publisher's feed

We created this podcast in recognition that there are a number of podcasts for the American "left," but many of them focus heavily on the organizing of social democrats, progressives, and liberal democrats. Aside from that, on the left we are always fighting a war of ideas and if we do not continue to build platforms to share those ideas and the stories of their implementation from a leftist perspective, they will continue to be ignored, misrepresented, and dismissed by the capitalist media and as a result by the general public.

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