✨【EP12 Azmyl Yunor的搖滾、馬來西亞、與約翰萬宜藍調《John Bangi Blues》】✨
🎙️ 來賓：Azmyl Yunor
🎙️ 主持人：何東洪 Tung-Hung Ho
本集邀請馬來西亞獨立音樂人Azmyl Yunor 來到和平東路實驗室做現場表演及亞際對話。這也是他首次在臺灣巡迴演出中的一場。受到龐克、搖滾、獨立音樂文化啟蒙，他的歌曲經常以社會評論的姿態介入馬來西亞的文化與政治。本集帶您認識Azmyl的音樂與政治，他創新又在地的藍調融合了對家鄉萬宜發展的思索、對國族政治與族群問題的批判，以及對音樂創作人身份的深刻反思。
📌本集精華📌
0:00 「約翰萬宜藍調」：一張專輯的誕生
4:07 三首關於家鄉萬宜的歌：幽靈大貨車、煽動者的藍調、我啥都不想買
8:25 突破族群意識的Orang Kita：從「穆斯林馬來人」到「我們人民」
10:07 第一首表演歌曲："Orang Kita" 我們人民
13:50 參與實驗與龐克音樂社群
17:12 創造自己的演奏與合作（Do-It-Together）模式
21:06 去殖民的批判聲響
23:56 第二首表演曲目：I don’t want to buy anything我啥都不想買
26:39 用表演串起亞際共同感覺
30:35 全職還是兼職音樂人，重要嗎？
36:45 合而為一的專業：電影與新聞
40:03 第三曲目表演 “It’s Not Easy“不容易啊
📌工作團隊📌
監製籌劃 Producer: 蔡如音 Eva Tsai
助理製作 Assistant Producer：李書瑜 Tina Lee
來賓/表演者 Guest Performer: Azmyl Yunor主持人 Host: 何東洪 Tung-Hung Ho攝影 Camera Operators: 黃貫之 Jake Huang、陳奕銓 Frank Chen、林欣賢 Paul Lin
收音 Production Sound Mixer：廖彥琳 Eno Liao
錄音/混音指導 Audio and Sound Consultant: 蔡金翰 Chris Leo Tsai
攝影指導 Director of Photography: 梁紹文 Shao-Wen Liang
平面攝影 Still Photographer：蔡安步 Anbu Tsai
後製剪輯 Post Production Editing：王璟 Jean Wang
中英翻譯校對 Transcript and Subtitle Translation：林欣賢Paul Lin、陳奕銓Frank Chen、Eva Tsai、王璟 Jean Wang
📌音樂📌
・《Orang Kita》 https://youtu.be/F1JbpH1V2HA?si=k1Sj0_TgkVeIyTML
・《I don’t want to buy anything》 https://youtu.be/4hyBIcxnJFY?si=kViamzvAacfFuPAb
📌系列簡介 📌
【MIT作者對談】
這是一個關於台灣流行音樂的Podcast節目。節目發想來自Routledge 於2020年出版的一本書：Made in Taiwan: Studies in PopularMusic（台灣製造：流行音樂研究），節目的製作與參與者也是這本書的編者Eva與作者群。
【瞭解我們】
臺師大大傳所官網 https://www.mcom.ntnu.edu.tw/
和平東路實驗室 https://www.youtube.com/@NTNUHopingLab
責編：王璟
📌逐字稿Transcript 📌
1.「約翰萬宜藍調」：一張專輯的誕生
HO
Okay welcome, Azmyl, to Taiwan.
Azmyl，歡迎來台灣!
YUNOR
Thank you. Thank you.
謝謝，謝謝你!
HO
Especially during this kind of post-Covid era. Your latest release in like 2020. It's called John Bangi Blues. Bangi is 萬宜. [The album] actually is very heartily welcomed by a lot of people who are really into music.
尤其是在後疫情時代，你在2020年的最新發行叫做《約翰萬宜藍調John Bangi Blues》。Bangi 即是「萬宜」，這張專輯受到許多音樂愛好者的熱烈歡迎。
Can you talk about your idea of releasing a very kind of a rock—back to the roots of the rock music—during the Covid period?
你能談談為何在疫情期間發行一張回歸搖滾音樂的專輯嗎？
YUNOR
Yeah, well the roots of the album began before Covid so it relates closely to the politics and economy in Malaysia around 2018, when we had this election. For the first time the ruling party lost. The ruling coalition lost and particularly one character, you know, former prime minister Najib so he was this character that was, well, annoying to me. Very annoying (laugh).
嗯，其實這張專輯的根源是在疫情之前就開始了，它與2018年馬來西亞的政治和經濟情勢有很大的關聯。當時我們國家進行了大選，也是執政黨首次失利，執政聯盟失去了政權，特別是一個人物，前首相Najib（納吉），他讓我感到厭煩，非常厭煩（笑）。
But of course I also became a father in 2016, so it was a period of where I was considering “Can I still do this?”
而我也在2016年也成為了父親，所以那段時間我在思考著：我還能繼續做這些嗎？
HO
Since you become a father, why your songs were so more fiercely right? (YUNOR: Exactly) Your folk music, especially your Fender guitar. You so attack it the guitars yes it's so attacking
你成為了父親，但你的音樂怎麼聽起來更為兇猛了，對吧？（YUNOR：沒錯）特別是你對你那把Fender吉他的方式，簡直就是在攻擊它。
YUNOR
Yes, I was afraid I’d get mellow. I thought I would become father mellow right, about my children, you know. But I was pleasantly surprised. Actually, the album I had envisioned it to be…you know this album by Bob Dylan called John Wesley Harding. It’s a trio, you know, with guitar, bass, acoustic?
我當時擔心自己會變得溫馴，我以為成為父親後，會因為孩子變得更溫和，但是我開心地發現並不是這樣。其實我原本想把這張專輯做成像 Bob Dylan 的《John Wesley Harding》那樣的風格，它是三重奏的編制：吉他、貝斯以及原聲樂器。
HO
When he released it, it surprised people, right? (YUNOR: Yes.) …back to the western kind of roots right?
當《John Wesley Harding》發行時，確實讓大家感到驚訝，對吧？像回到西方源頭的感覺。
YUNOR
Yes, I love the album. So the songs that I came up with…well I wrote those songs while taking care of my children, you know, in between. They're twins.
是的，我愛死了那張專輯。寫這些歌時，我都是利用照顧我雙胞胎孩子的空檔完成的。
So I became more disciplined with my songwriting. and I think that's why the songs were compact, on the dot and I envision it to be acoustic like John Wesley Harding so hence the name, John Bangi Blues, initially. That's one reason. There's several more.
我很有紀律的寫歌，可能因為如此這些歌曲聽起來非常緊湊。我想讓它具備《John Wesley Harding》的原聲風格，這也是為什麼專輯名稱叫《John Bangi Blues》，但這只是其中一個原因，還有其他原因。
Then in 2019 I went to the studio. I wanted to record with one of my other bands. But they're a bigger band and they were too busy. So I called two friends who I really wanted to try collaborating with, which was a bassist called Chris, Kristopher Chong who plays a bit in my other band AYOP Orkes Padu. And Ammar Khairi who's a drummer in my noise rock band which we toured in Taiwan in 2019. I always wanted to do something. He was such a great rock drummer so we went to studio. I brought acoustic guitar but I just brought my telly (Telecaster by Fender) along in case. When I started jamming in the studio, it just didn't feel…you know, like “It's not nice. Hold on guys!” (HO: Mixed energy yeah?) Yeah it was just too low. Okay I put my electric out. Okay man, it's gonna be the telly.
然後在2019年，我去了錄音室，想跟我其他的樂團錄些什麼，但那些團比較大，而且非常忙。因此我請了兩位我非常想合作的朋友，就是我的貝斯手克里斯 (Kristopher Chong)，他也參加了我的另一個樂隊AYOP和Orkes Padu。還有鼓手阿瑪(Ammar Khairi)，他是我噪音龐克搖滾樂隊的鼓手，我們 2019年在台灣巡演過。我其實一直都想和他合作，他是一位非常棒的搖滾鼓手。我們去了錄音室並且帶上了我的木吉他，但我也還是帶上了telly（Telecaster, Fender出品的電吉他暱稱），以防在錄音室開始即興演奏時有什麼狀況。當我在錄音室開始即興演奏時，感覺…你知道「啊～感覺不太對，等一下，大家！」(HO：不在同個頻率上？）沒錯，可能不夠力吧，所以我就決定用電吉他了。
HO
Yeah, especially the first song so called Penghutsu Blues. It’s in the first track right? It’s defining the sounds of this album. Can you talk more about this different kind of blues, the meaning of it…especially this sound and the other track is different kind of feeling. You said you wanted to express something about the situation. But actually not all the music are that political oriented (YUNOR yeah they're not they're not) [there are] some different kind of things [expressed] especially the second track is “Lori Hantu” kind of Malaysian track right? (YUNOR: yes yes) It's kind of a working class people track.
尤其是第一首歌叫《煽動者的藍調Penghutsu Blues》，這是專輯的第一首歌，定義了這張專輯的聲音。你能多談談這麼另類的藍調音樂嗎？特別是這首歌的意義與它的聲響？似乎跟其他曲目有不同的感受？它評論當前情況，但也並不是你所有歌都在評論政治，別的主題，尤其是第二首曲目是《Lori Hantu幽靈大貨車》，非常馬來西亞風格的曲子，也是描繪勞動階級經驗的歌。
2,三首關於家鄉萬宜的歌：幽靈大貨車、煽動者的藍調、我啥都不想買
YUNOR
So I think I’ll put the context of the second reason about this album. When I first started performing in…well okay that's the name, but let me talk about John Bangi as Bangi. So I'm from the town called Bangi. That's my hometown. So Bangi is South of Kuala Lumpur. South of Kuala Lumpur isn't a cool area to live. People want to live north of KL you know. When I say that I'm from Bangi, they’ll say “Oh that's very far.” It's not far. There’s a highway man. It's like 20 minutes by car.
沒錯。我想來談一下專輯的第二個緣由。讓我先談談萬宜（Bangi），我來自一個叫萬宜的城鎮，那是我的家鄉。萬宜位在吉隆坡的南部，吉隆坡以南不是一個適合居住的好地方，人們通常會想要住在吉隆坡北部。當我說我來自萬宜時，人們會說「哦，那很遠耶！」，但其實不遠，開車上高速公路大約20分鐘就能到吉隆坡。
But I've lived there since I was 12, and it's a very conservative town. Islamic party is the the mainstay there. Next to Bangi is the town called Kajang which is a lot more diverse. It's an economic town, with bigger Chinese community but it's also south, so it's near the airport and there's a lot of industries there. Palm oil. A lot of stuff going on. So I thought I wanted to do something about that region. So hence that are about Bangi as a town is a very middle class Malay Muslim town. A lot of people from different parts of Malaysia come there to live because it's probably cheaper initially to live there. So the album is a commentary—a social critique about the middle class values about being a new middle class. But Lori Hantu is something very common there because there's a lot of developments. (HO: So you can see all the trucks every day on the highway ) Yes on the highway! And you know they use usually recycled tires and the tires would explode. And you drive, you see like rubber on the road. And then you see big lorries because that’s usually what happens with the palm oil estate.
我從12歲就住在那裡，那是一個非常保守的城鎮，伊斯蘭黨在那裡是主要的勢力。萬宜旁邊有個叫Kajang的城鎮，那裡的多元化程度相對高些，是一個經濟發達的城鎮，也有龐大的華人社區。它位於南部並且靠近機場，附近有許多產業，像是棕櫚油等，所以我想寫關於這個地區的歌。萬宜是一個非常中產的馬來穆斯林社區，馬來西亞不同地區的人們都會搬來這裡居住，因為生活成本相對較低。
這張專輯是社會評論，針對中產階級價值觀的批判，特別是關於成為一個新中產階級的問題。所以在那裡有「幽靈大貨車」《Lori Hantu》這樣的事情，在那裡這是非常普遍的，當地有許多棕櫚油的開發項目。(HO：所以你可以在高速公路上每天看到這些卡車？)是的，他們通常在高速公路上使用回收的輪胎，而這些輪胎經常會爆胎，當你開車時會看到路上有橡膠屑，然後你會看到類似大型卡車的車子，通常是與棕櫚油種植園有關。
HO
So that song is kind of building a kind of soundscape.
感覺像是在建立一種聲景。
YUNOR
Yes but the irony was when I first wrote Lori Hantu, I imagine it was going to be a country music…slower like a lullaby with a pedal steel you know. But again, went to the studio (laugh)…knocked it out. I imagined it, but the song tells me otherwise.
是的，但諷刺的是當我第一次開始寫《幽靈大貨車Lori Hantu》這首歌時，我想像這首歌會有種緩慢的鄉村音樂風格，就像搖籃曲一樣，並且以踏板鋼棒吉他彈奏。我跟夥伴們再次進入錄音室時，我只能說，我有我的想像，但這首歌成有它自己的樣子。
Penghutsu Blues was also something that inspired by that 2018 thing, so it's a commentary on our former prime minister.
《煽動者的藍調Penghutsu Blues》也是受到2018年局勢的啟發，評論我們的前首相。
HO
Can you tell me the meaning of Penghasut ?
你可以告訴我Penghasut的意思嗎?
YUNOR
It means instigator.
Penghasut的意思是煽動者。
(HO:Yeah,you want to instigate something)
Yeah. Yeah. So our former prime minister always say that like anybody who criticizes him is a Penghasut. And one of my friends who is also big fan of my music—Fahmy Reza—very popular political graphic artist…he started his poster called Penghasut with his clown face (note: the face of Najib Razak).
(HO：所以你想要煽動一些事情嗎？)是的，我們的前首相總是說任何批評他的人都是煽動者。我朋友Fahmy Reza，他是我音樂的忠實粉絲，也是一位非常有名的政治插畫藝術家，他創作一副名為“Penghasut”（煽動者）的海報，把馬來西亞前首相納吉阿都拉薩跟小丑的臉譜畫在一起。
（相關報導連結：https://justseeds.org/fahmi-reza-we-are-all-seditious/）
HO
Is this kind of the tradition of anti-communism, anti-left and anti-social critics? (YUNOR: that's where he's coming from. Yeah.)
這算是一種反共產主義、反左派和反社會批評的傳統嗎？(YUNOR：正是如此)
YUNOR
Fahmy is coming from really that that side. Ironically, that's not his favorite track on the album. But anyway, so (HO: But put it in the first track, define the sound)
It did and that was actually my friend who produced it Arif. This why I like making albums…like you have bunch of songs and I usually don't determine where it is. And then he would, as a producer. He'll think of where things go. So we looked at it and like he said this should start first. Yeah, I had another idea…
Fahmy確實是那個立場的人，但《煽動者的藍調Penghutsu Blues》並不是他專輯中最喜歡的曲目，無論如何。(HO：但這首歌依然是定調專輯聲響的第一首)。它被放在了第一位。這實際上是我朋友Arif製作的，這就是我喜歡做專輯的原因，你會有一堆歌曲，但我通常不是決定順序的人，他作為製作人會考慮歌曲的擺放位置。我們檢視過[所有的曲子]，雖然我有別的想法，但他說這首歌應該作為第一曲目。
HO
Besides of this critique you have a song called “I don't want to buy any anything.” (Reading the lyrics) “They call it marketing I call it fuck you.” You are very straightforward. It is a middle-class consumerism.
除了這種批評之外，你還有一首歌叫《I Don't Want to Buy Anything我啥都不想買》，（唸出部分歌詞）「他們說這叫行銷，我說見鬼了」。你非常地直截了當，這算在談中產消費主義吧？
YUNOR
Yes, yes. It is a critique on consumerism because my town Bangi becomes a very Islamic consumerist town. So that's where you find out the boutiques selling the hijab [and] all this Islamic stuff clothes and you know, it's a town that's increasingly becoming and also, you know, the economics is quite ironic because you have the halal economy. But to me they're both capitalists (laugh).
沒錯。這是一種對消費主義的批評，因為我的家鄉萬宜變成了一個非常伊斯蘭消費主義的城鎮。在那裡你可以看到很多精品店賣著頭巾和其他伊斯蘭服飾，越來越朝著這個方向發展的城鎮，這裡的經濟也頗具諷刺意味，因為清真經濟還是資本主義的表現（笑）。
3.突破族群意識的Orang Kita：從「穆斯林馬來人」到「我們人民」
HO
Since you [are] kind of a half academic musician so you're most of using your social critique in your class in the same time in the music. So like a middle-class consumerism sometimes combined with a kind of nationalism, right? That’s the question of the problem. So another song is called Orang Kita, right?
你在學院裡也在音樂圈，基本上你運用社會批評來思考階級及音樂。中產階級的消費主義有時會與某種民族主義相結合。所以這就是問題所在，你有另一首歌叫做是《Orang Kita我們人民》，對嗎？
YUNOR
Yes, Orang Kita
是的，《Orang Kita》。
HO
Orang is indigenous Malaysian people?
Orang指的是馬來西亞的原住民嗎？
YUNOR
Orang in Malay means people. Orang Kita is a term that the Malay Muslims in Malaysia often use. (HO: Kita is us? We?) Yeah, so but when you say orang kita, [it] is usually to refer to just the Malay Muslim. So in our conversation, (HO:so yo don't say Chinese) yeah Orang Kita is very specific to just the Malay Muslims. Like Orang Kita, “how do we take our orang kita and our people?”
《Orang》在馬來語中指的是「人」的意思，而馬來穆斯林經常用《Orang Kita》 來指自己的群體。(HO：Kita指的是「我們」嗎？)對的，當你說《Orang Kita》時，通常是指馬來穆斯林。因此在我們的對話中…(HO：所以不會說華人?)是的，《Orang Kita》非常具體地指稱為馬來穆斯林人，Orang Kita出現在句子裡，就會像是「我們該如何看待馬來穆斯林人與我們的人民？」
HO
Can you explain the lyrics was trying to…
這首歌的歌詞想表達的是?
YUNOR
I think the lyric is trying to break the Orang Kita [to] mean all of us, not just the Malay Muslims, because I find that problem is very, you know, communal. It's like we should be concerned about all of us. not just a community. So I think I'm trying to take a terminology that's associated with communalism. But I want to break it and say, no, this means all of us. So the lyrics in Malay was trying to say like, no Orang kita is all of us, but I even push it further—[it] is about us as humans. (HO:Okay) we are humans.
這句歌試圖表達《Orang Kita》意味著所有人，而不僅僅是馬來穆斯林人。因為我發現問題在於他的社群召喚，我們應該關心所有人，不是一個社群。我想我正在使用這種與社群主義相關的術語來打破這個界限，並說「不，這指的是所有人。」所以，馬來語的歌詞試圖表達的是:「不! 《Orang Kita》是指所有人。甚至是作為人類的我們。」
HO
So we gonna have a chance later to see yeah
我們稍後有機會看到這個表演嗎？
YUNOR
Sure, a special version. I'll do acoustic version for that.
當然，特別版。我待會打算來做一個原聲的表演。
4.第一首表演歌曲："Orang Kita" 我們人民
Aku Engkau, Mereka
Me, You, Them
我，你，他們
Kami Kita Dia tu Siapa?
Us, them, who is he/she?
我們，他們，他是誰？
Kiri Kanan atas
To the left, the right, on top
左邊、右邊、上面
Bawah takda
Underneath, still no one in sight
Siapa ‘orang kita’ ni sebenarnya
Do we really know who our people are?
我們真的懂我們人民是誰嗎？
Alor Setar, Kangar, George Town, Victoria
亞羅士打，加央，喬治市，維多莉雅
KK, Kuching, JB, Ipoh, Melaka
新山，古晉，怡保，麻六甲
Seremban, Kuantan, Shah Alam
芙蓉線，關丹，莎阿南
KB, KT, KL Putrajaya
哥打巴魯，瓜拉登嘉樓，吉隆坡、布城
Orang Kita Tu
Our people are
我們人民是
Orang Malaysia
All Malaysians
所有的馬來西亞人
Timur Barat
From the East to the West
從東到西
Selatan Utara
To the south to the norths
往南也往北
Lagi Menarik
It’s always more interesting
能慶祝差異總是很意思
Bila berbeza
to celebrate our difference
Apa lu mau?
What do you want
你要什麼
Semua ada
We’ve got it all
我們都有
（吹口琴）
Orang Kita Tu
Our people are
我們人民是
Orang Malaysia
All Malaysians
所有的馬來西亞人
Timur Barat
From the East to the West
從東到西
Selatan Utara
To the south to the norths
往南也往北
Lagi Menarik
It’s always more interesting
Bila berbeza
to celebrate our difference
能慶祝差異總是很意思
Apa lu mau?
What do you want
你要什麼
Semua ada
We’ve got it all
我們都有
Aku, dia
Me, him/her,
我，他
Mereka
Them
他們
Kami, kita, engkau ni apa?
We, us , what are you?
我們，我們。你們是誰？
Ini jawapan
THis is my final answer
這是我終極的答案
Muktamad gua
This is my final answer
這是我終極的答案
Aku Manusia
I am A human being
我是一個人類
（重複四次）
5.參與實驗與龐克音樂社群
HO
Yeah, and the second part I want to ask you about is you’re kind of as a musician. Actually, you've been in this music [scene] for more than 20 years. (YUNOR: 20 odd years. Yeah.) Besides as a musician you did a lot of music community organization. Yeah, just I mentioned that there is a legendary German Krautrock and… (YUNOR: Can yeah) He just died. Damo Suzuki right? You used to have the kind of project with him (YUNOR: Yes once.) Can you talk about your experience cooperating with other musicians?
我想問你第二部分的問題是關於作為音樂人這件事，你其實已經在音樂圈超過20年了。除了作為音樂人，你還做了很多音樂社群的組織工作。有位傳奇的德國實驗搖滾大師…（YUNOR：Can，是的）他剛去世。鈴木達摩，他以前和你有合作（YUNOR：是的，一次），能談談你跟其他音樂家合作的經驗嗎？
YUNOR
Yeah. So that's the other side what I do music…because when I started playing the well, I got really active in 2000 onwards. There was no music scene. It was open mics. But I was very close to the experimental scene. And the experimental scene is very close to the punk scene. I love a lot of my acoustic stuff, the cassette releases. That's why my start was in the punk scene. It wasn't singer-songwriter, you know, I didn't know what singer-songwriter was.
這是玩音樂的另一個原因，我大概是在2000年後開始演奏工作，變得非常活躍。但當時並沒有音樂活動，只有即興的現場演出，我與實驗性音樂圈非常接近，而實驗音樂圈又與龐克圈很靠近，我有許多原聲作品的錄音帶都是在那個時候發行的。所以我是從龐克起家，不是創作歌手，當時我甚至沒什麼創作歌手的概念。
HO
Oh, yeah, you mentioned the singer-songwriter is not that kind of Western ideas of singer-songwriter
你提過「創作歌手」這個概念並不是那種西方的想法。
YUNOR
Yeah. Yeah, so I thought I was just solo, right? So anyway, the same gang and the punk scene. Then one day in 2010 I think. Said Damo Suzuki is coming down and he's doing his network thing where he just jams with local musicians. Damo Suzuki. I'm a big fan. We all are you know, so then he came and I was tasked to pick him up at his hotel. Bring him to the venue. So Damo Suzuki sat in my car man. I picked him out. He's a cool guy, man. So he just said “how’s everything.” Yeah, good. Good. Good. All right, so bro. And I think our soundcheck was 10 minutes. That's it. He just like, “okay, let's soundcheck.” Then he just did his thing. Okay, let's go eat. It's the best soundcheck ever.
沒錯，我認為自己只是在獨奏，在龐克音樂圈裡，跟同樣的夥伴。2010年的某天，有人說鈴木達摩要來跟當地音樂人一起即興演出，鈴木達摩耶，我是他的粉絲，我們全部的人都是。他來的時候，我的任務是去酒店接他並帶他到演出地點，我開著我的車去接他，他很淡定，跟我閒聊：「一切都好嗎？」我回應:「非常好，非常好，沒有問題。」我印象中試音只花了10分鐘。他當時只是說：「好，讓我們來試音。」試完後，他就說：「好，去吃東西吧！」那真的是我最好的一次試音經歷！
HO
What's that recorded?
那次演出有錄音嗎？
YUNOR
That was. I think some guys recorded audio…video was yeah, they had that. But there was also because from the experimental scene we did a lot of improv, improvisation. And the gang who played was from that scene
那次演出有錄聲音…和影像。因為來自於實驗音樂圈的關係，我們經常進行即興演奏，許多參加演出的樂團也來自那個實驗圈。
HO
So your music training background is different. But you're two years younger than me. I'm the children of American rock right? So you are the children the rock and punk. We all know this tradition. (YUNOR: Same thing) You have very different kind of nutrition kind of binding together (YUNOR: Similar. Yeah, different but similar. Yeah. Yeah) So how do you define your music's roots?
你吸收的音樂類型跟我非常不同，但你只比我小兩歲而已，我是聽美國搖滾音樂的孩子，你是聽美國搖滾和龐克音樂的孩子，我們都清楚這種搖滾樂演化出來的傳統。（YUNOR：一樣的東西）你的背景有著相當不同的養分，卻又緊密相連。那你怎麼定義你音樂的根源呢？
YUNOR
In terms of practice, how I ended up doing what I did was I had to do what I did because nobody was doing it. There was nothing offered. We started organizing because we weren't used to that waiting around. Nobody cared. Yeah, we're doing now like suddenly a everybody cares and responses, but they never come to us. So we don't care.
就實踐而言，我最終做了我所做的事情，是因為沒有人在做這些。當時沒有任何參考。我們就自己搞了些組織性的活動，我們不習慣等待[他人來做]，也沒有人在乎我們當時的感覺。但當我們開始做時，突然之間所有人開始關心並開始回應，但他們從沒來找過我們，所以我們也沒那麼在乎。
HO
Yeah, I heard that that even in the 90s, British pop kind of things happened in Thailand and Southeast Asian countries. But it's very middle class, right?
有一說法，即使在90年代，英國流行音樂的影響也曾在泰國等東南亞國家出現，但那是非常中產階級的現象，對吧？
YUNOR
Yeah, very middle class. I think with the indie scene, a lot of guys were into like Britpop. (HO:Yeah, Britpop.) But I wasn't so much into it. I was very into the American collegiate kind of rock and that's a punk stuff. And I was into bands like R.E.M., Nirvana, of course, Nirvana growing up 90s.
的確，是非常中產的現象，在獨立音樂圈裡，真的有不少人蠻喜歡英國搖滾流行，但我並不是特別喜歡。我更喜歡美國的校園搖滾和龐克音樂，像是R.E.M.、Nirvana，特別是在90年代長大。
6.創造自己的演奏與合作（Do-It-Together）模式
HO
So when you were playing, do you have the Malaysia version of indie music or how do you call yourself?
所以當你在表演時，有沒有所謂的馬來西亞獨立音樂？或者你會怎麼稱呼當時的演奏呢？
YUNOR
Well, I mean, in the late 90s, everybody was underground, before indie. So you had bands that I remember playing a battle of bands in college. And my band was weird. Because we played The Doors, Jimi Hendrix, but in our own way. And we will go to the battle of bands and we'll hear a band playing Pearl Jam. And it sounds just like Pearl Jam. Deep voice. It's a local guy. So people were mimicking really well, the bands of the time. But I think from then on, they started writing their own music.
90年代末，在獨立音樂出現之前，大家都屬於地下音樂圈。我記得在大學時參加過一個樂團比賽，我當時的團非常奇怪，因為我們用自己的方式演奏了Jimi Hendrix的曲子《The Doors》 。然後我們去比賽時，聽到其他樂團演奏《Pearl Jam》，聽起來就跟原唱一模一樣，有著那低沉的聲音，是當地人的演出。人們模仿當時的樂團相當成功，但我認為他們應該從那時開始創作自己的音樂。
So original music that transcended from underground to indie only started in the mid to late 90s. Everybody was writing in English. I started writing in English. So, but later on, I think I was inspired by Indonesian singer songwriters. And some friends from the, who were buskers, but folk performers, they were writing Malay, Malaysian Malay. That's why I decided, I want to try writing in Malay too. In a colloquial way.
所以直到90年代中期到末期，才開始有了從地下音樂到獨立音樂的原創音樂，當時每個人都使用英語寫歌，我也是這樣開始的。但後來我受到印尼創作音樂人的啟發，以及一些朋友的影響，他們在街頭表演民謠並使用馬來語創作。我決定也嘗試以口語馬來語來創作音樂。
HO
Yeah, yeah. And besides of you jamming with musicians, actually, you were involved in a co-op? (YUNOR: Ah, yeah, yeah. That's the same gang.) Yeah, musician artists, right? (YUNOR: Yes, yes, yes.) So it's sort of like artists, not only musicians, but kind of creative artists, right?
除了和音樂家一起即興演奏之外，其實你還參與了一種藝術家合作社的形式對吧？（YUNOR: 是的，這是同一群人），同時是音樂家及藝術家？(YUNOR: 是的)
YUNOR
Yeah, that was really fun. Yeah, that was really fun. I think that we started a co-op around 2000, 2003. So friends were from the Chinese underground scene, experimental, punk. And we would collaborate with some experimental dancers, and we do performances, playing in cafes, restaurants. Really. Nobody will come.
是的，那真的很有趣。我們是在2000年到2003年之間開始這個表演合作，我們有來自中國地下、實驗和龐克的朋友們，我們也與一些實驗舞者做表演，像是在咖啡館和餐廳演出。老實說，那時候真的沒什麼人會來看（大笑）。
HO
Yeah. No, because in so small, you need networking, right?
因為圈子太小了，你需要建立人際網絡，對吧？
YUNOR
Yes, yes. And that was my first experience with touring. We would play different towns. Some there would be people, some nobody. But it was great. I get to see the landscape.
是的，而且那是我第一次巡演，我們會到不同的城鎮演出。有些地方會有觀眾，有些地方沒半個人。但對我來說很好，我得以看到各種景色。
HO
Did that help you to be like, since you are now a lecturer in the university, was your experience really helping you to communicate with the so-called digital generation?
那是否有幫助到你？因為你現在是大學講師，你的經歷是否有讓你跟所謂的數位世代在溝通上更為順暢？
YUNOR
Definitely. I think definitely, because I was dealing, I mean, like, yeah, it seems primitive now, but even then, you know, you had all this internet, you know, coming in. So we were, we had to adjust to that, right? So I think, when I communicate with my students now, it's the same thing. Like, look, you have social media and all this stuff, but it's all about adapting. You know? And I think for me, I was very clear that this experimental stuff, this isn't the stuff that's going to get me more gigs, but I need to do it. It's important.
絕對是的。肯定有幫助，因為我在處理，我指的是，現在看起來當時似乎有點原始，但在那個時候網路已經開始發展，因此我們不得不適應這一點，對吧？所以我覺得當我現在與學生溝通時其實也是一樣的，就像你有社群媒體和所有這些東西，但這一切都是關乎適應，你知道嗎？對我來說，我很清楚這些實驗性的東西並不會讓我得到更多演出，但我需要去做。這很重要。
HO
So do you encourage your students to be musicians or artists?
那你會鼓勵你的學生成為音樂人或藝術家嗎？
YUNOR
I say, do what you want to do. I say, that's what I tell ‘em.
我會說，做你想做的事，我都這樣跟他們說。
HO
Because there's one of the MVs actually directed by your students, right?
有一首（專輯裡的）音樂MV是你的學生拍的，對嗎？
YUNOR
Yeah, actually, a lot of them. It's a collaboration, a kind of a personal project that I want to, for a very long time, I wanted to work with students, because I want to see their interpretation of… It's a generational interpretation of my song. I usually don't interfere, you know? Like, you let them do it, you know? Nothing to lose. Plus, I tell them, my budget is too small. I can't tell you what to do. So that helps, you know?
對，其實很多首都是他們拍的。這是一種串連，雖然（專輯）是個人的計畫，但我一直想與學生合作，因為我想看看他們怎麼理解我的歌曲…這是一種世代的詮釋。我通常不會干涉，而讓他們自己做，因為沒什麼好失去的。此外，我也告訴他們，我的預算太少，我不能告訴你們該怎麼做（笑），其實這樣的情況對他們也有幫助。
HO
Yeah. So that's from do-it-yourself to do-it-together, right? (YUNOR:Yes. Yes. Yes.) So now it's a way to do-it-together, right? (YUNOR: Yes. Do-it-together. Yeah. Yeah.) Generations, different kind of…
是的，所以從「自己動手」（DIY）變成「一起合作」（DIT），對吧？（YUNOR：是的）所以現在是一種共同創作的方式，對嗎？（YUNOR：是的，合作並一起做）不同世代間的…
YUNOR
Yes. Yes. Plus, you know, back when I first started playing, I didn't think I was going to be academic, but I was always into, you know, ideas, right? Reading stuff. And if you're into experimental music, you would read deeper into it. Why they do it. Why? The why is so important, right? So…
沒錯。而且你知道當我剛開始表演時，我並沒有想過自己會成為學者，但我一直對概念很感興趣，喜歡閱讀。如果你對實驗性音樂很感興趣，你就會想要深入閱讀，理解為什麼他們要這樣做？這個「為什麼」是非常重要的，對吧？
7.去殖民的批判聲響
HO
Can you tell me more about actually your music experience and then actually you're more into kind of post-colonial critique, right? The critique of capitalism. Do you think that kind of transforms something, that kind of sounding in your music?
你能多告訴我關於你的音樂經歷嗎？然後其實你更傾向做後殖民的批判，對吧？還有批判資本主義。你認為這些東西會在你的音樂中轉化成某種聲音嗎？
YUNOR
I think, yeah, definitely. Because I think if people see me on the surface, you know, like, you look like a modern musician. I play Western instruments. I look wear my cap backwards. But this is all bland, man. This is all semiotics. You know?
So, so for me, it's like, like, I don't want to exoticize the indigenous. Like, I can play, I can wear songko, do all that stuff. But I don't live that way. I wear pants, man. I mean, I wear sarong. I wear sarong at home. But, you know, if I wear sarong on stage, it's a statement. It's not being comfortable. Because there's no pockets, you know.
我想是的，絕對如此。因為我覺得如果人們從表面上看我，他們會覺得我看起來很現代，我彈奏西方文化的樂器，我的棒球帽是反戴的，但這一切都是乏味的，都是符號。對我來說，就像是我不想讓原住民文化變得異國情調，我可以戴著宋谷帽（馬來西亞傳統服飾）做那些事情，但…（HO：但是你不這樣做，對吧？）是的。我的意思是我不以那種方式生活。我平常穿褲子。我的意思是，我穿沙籠。（HO：我們不必假裝，對吧？）是的，我在家裡穿沙龍（馬來西亞傳統服飾）。但如果我在舞台上穿沙龍，那是一種宣言，並不是因為我覺得舒適，而且沙籠沒有口袋…
HO
So, you don't consider your music as a kind of statement, but a kind of sounding… (YUNOR: Both.) Do you consider your music a protest song, or a message song, or just music?
所以，你不認為你的音樂是一種聲明，而是一種聲響…（YUNOR：兩者都有。）你把自己的音樂歸到抗議音樂、傳達某種訊息的歌曲或單純只是音樂？
YUNOR
I guess, first and foremost, storytelling. Then the message comes in. Then if it's a protest, it's a protest, you know? Malaysia, we don't have a strong protest music…culture. I think nowadays they're active, kind of, protesting, or at least people call us. It's me and another guy called Brian Gomez, who runs a music venue that always play at Merdekarya. Shout out to Brian! So, yeah, it's not a tradition. We're very conformist. Malaysian society is very conformist, very consumerist, but they don't see that. So that's why I feel the need to critique, to comment on this, because, hey, look at yourself. Like, you know, we are the most obese nation in Southeast Asia. If you know about that, there was statistics.
首要是說故事，然後某種訊息會進來。如果是抗議，那就是抗議。你知道在馬來西亞並沒有強大的抗議音樂或文化，現在有比較活躍，至少人們也這樣稱呼我們，我和另一位叫Brian Gomez的人，他經營一個音樂表演場地叫Merdekarya，這邊致意一下Brian。是的，這不是一種傳統，我們總是非常遵循傳統，馬來西亞社會崇尚消費主義，但沒有自覺，所以這就是為什麼我認為有必要去批評和評論這一點，嘿！看看你自己！我們是東南亞最肥胖的國家，反映在統計數據。
HO
But the first principle is that the music had to be interesting enough, right?
但首要原則是音樂必須要有趣對吧？
YUNOR
Yes. It's got to be catchy enough. Yeah. (HO: Yeah.For people to get into that. )
是的，它必須要足夠吸引人。(HO：這樣人們才能被吸引。)
YUNOR
Because I think I realized I had that gift. When I was doing experimental stuff, you know, I still hadn't released like a proper solo album that was catchy enough. So I was conflicted. Should I follow this or that? But then I thought, I'll just do all. Why not? You know? So I'll do my solo stuff. And people say, I like your song. It's very catchy. Okay. I've got this gift of melody. So instead of just writing about lame love songs, why don't I write about something that you're bothered about? You know? Yeah. Oh, I'm bothered about it too.
我意識到自己有這個天賦，當我在做實驗性作品時，我還沒有發行一張足夠吸引人的正規個人專輯，所以我感到很矛盾，我應該追隨這還是那？但後來我想為什麼不都做呢？所以我製作我的個人作品，人們說我喜歡你的歌，它非常朗朗上口。好吧！我想我確實有著寫出這種旋律的天賦，所以與其只是寫一些無聊的情歌，為什麼不寫一些你在意的事情呢？你懂嗎？是啊，我也確實很在意這些事。
HO
Yeah. We take a rest. And next part, we're going to see Azmyl play one or two songs for us. (YUNOR:Sure. Sure. Okay. All right.)
好的，我們休息一下。接下來的部分，我們將看到 Azmyl 現場為我們演奏一到兩首歌曲。(YUNOR：當然，沒有問題。)
8.第二首表演曲目：I don’t want to buy anything我啥都不想買
Words and Music: Azmyl Yunor
When I wake up
當我起床
In the morning
在早晨
I’m in no mood
我一點興致都沒有
For your selling
對於你要兜售的東西
Go & shove it
滾吧
Take your damn thing
帶走你的那些鬼東西
Up your prover-bial
Hole thing
去你的
‘Cause I don’t wanna
Buy anything…today
因為我今天什麼都不想買
Well there should be
應該
A law against this
有個法條來禁止這種
Constant harassing
不停的騷擾
Even when I piss
甚至當我在小便時
Go & stuff it
滾吧
Go suck & kiss
Someone else’s
Ass you dick
去舔別人吧，你這蠢蛋
‘Cause I don’t wanna
Buy anything today
因為我今天啥都不想買
Sell out fake celebrities get it
那些出賣自己的虛假名人
Straight up from Satan
Up the ass
早被撒旦給操控
The only thing we get is
More and more debt
我們唯一得到的只是欠下更多的債
Tell me now
告訴我
Can’t you guess?
猜不到嗎？
Well I paid my taxes
我繳稅了
Overpaid my dues
我根本過度付出
It’s my damn right
To refuse
我他媽的有權利拒絕
They call it marketing
他們說這是行銷
I call it Fuck you la
我說見鬼了
Get out of my face
滾啦
Or else kiss my shoes
還是你要舔我的鞋子？
‘Cause I don’t wanna buy anything today （重複）
因為我今天啥都不想買
9.用表演串起亞際共同感覺
HO
Azmyl, I want to ask you, this is the second time or third time you come to Taiwan?
Azmyl，這是你第二次還是第三次來台灣？
YUNOR
Third time.
第三次。
HO
The third time, right?
這是第三次，對吧?
Last time I saw you play, not as a musician, but kind of music as a way of communicating within this Asian community, right? So can you talk about this kind of sitting within Asia we call inter-Asia? Independent music can be a very good tool for people in Asian countries. And to using music as a way of not only expressing themselves, but to listen to other people and to care for their situation. Can you talk about this?
上次我看你表演時，我發現你不只在做音樂演出，而是把音樂當作一種在亞洲社群中交流的方式，對吧？所以你能談談我們所說的「亞際」嗎？獨立音樂可以成為亞洲人交流的一個很好的工具。運用音樂做自我表達，還可以傾聽他人並關心他們的處境。你能談談這個嗎？
YUNOR
Definitely. I think we're not crossing over enough, I feel. One is as musicians, we're not touring enough. What's your excuse not to? Everything's like you said, it's a three hour plus flight or less. And also I wanted to leverage my worlds as an academic and musician. Both can also elicit greater solidarity.
絕對可以，然而我認為我們之間的交流還不夠充足。作為音樂人，我們巡演的次數不夠多，但你有什麼藉口不去巡演呢？飛行時間大約在三個小時左右，甚至更短，所以我希望能運用我作為學院老師和音樂人的雙重身份，促進更強大的團結意識。
HO
Yeah, exactly. Nowadays, not many people talk about solidarity.
的確如此，現今很少人討論團結意識。
YUNOR
Yeah, exactly. I worry about this mind that's yours. So for me, it's about problematizing this line that we draw, right?
是的。對我來說，就是「問題化」那條虛構的線。
Especially, again, Malaysia is quite interesting as a case study, because Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, Brunei, we were one. Even the Philippines, we're all Austronesian. Taiwan, if you want to draw, I have roots here anyway. Austronesians, whatever it is. We're one, right? But all these borders were, these are all colonial kind of like stuff, right? They drew the borders.
特別是馬來西亞作為個案其實很有趣，馬來西亞、印尼、新加坡以及汶萊曾經是一體的，甚至是菲律賓，我們都是南島民族。台灣，如果你要追溯的話，我在這裡也有根源，南島民族。無論大家怎麼說，我們都是一體的，對吧？但這些邊界都是殖民統治所劃定的，對吧？他們劃定了這些邊界。
But I always felt the need to like, look, I know, for example, Malaysia, Indonesia, there's always this kind of like, what's the word again? Not competition, because Malaysia is too small to compete with Indonesia. But when me and my friend, Bayangan, okay, who's a solo singer-songwriter, shout out to Bayangan. So he was touring Indonesia in 2018. We played the whole of Java. And he said, hey, you want to go tour with me? I said, sure. So I supported him. And so we were very clear when we performed in Indonesia, for example, was just to show, look, we are exist. Telling Indonesia, hey, we exist.
例如馬來西亞和印尼之間總是有這種…怎麼說…不是競爭，因為馬來西亞太小，無法與印尼競爭。但是當我和我的朋友Bayangan，他是一位獨立創作歌手，這邊致意一下Bayangan。我們在2018年一起在印尼巡演，在整個爪哇島演出。他問我：「嘿！你想和我一起巡演嗎？」我說:「當然可以！」我支持著他。我們在印尼演出時，很清楚我們的目的只是要表明「我們存在」，告訴印尼這個國家「嘿！我們存在。」
HO
It's very important.
這太重要了。
YUNOR
Yeah. Yeah. Very important.
是的，相當重要。
HO
So touring is the lifeblood of the band, right?
可以說巡演是樂團的生命線，對吧？
YUNOR
Exactly. Yeah. So, and then we also got a Singaporean friend to tour with us. So it's really building that up.
沒錯，我們還邀請了一位新加坡朋友一起巡演，這真的在建立連結。
And then I started meeting friends in Thailand, touring Thailand, the Philippines. Actually, my Philippines connection was through the academic circles, you know? And played there once. Of course, going on a conference. But, you know, trying to find, trying to really look, use the platform of touring and performing to show.
然後我開始在泰國認識朋友，並在泰國和菲律賓巡演。其實我與菲律賓的連結是通過學術網絡，在參加會議時，我曾經在那裡演出過一次。我努力的尋找與利用平台來做表演。
HO
And you can, you can encourage your students or your band, say, oh, come to Taiwan.
而且你可以鼓勵你的學生或你的樂隊來台灣。
YUNOR
Yeah. And our fellow musicians.
還有我們的音樂夥伴。
HO
It's not so difficult.
這並沒有那麼困難。
YUNOR
It's not so difficult. You know, it's like.
這並沒有那麼困難…
HO
If you, if your priorities, you have to be very enjoying yourself. Yes. Not to care about big audience, right?
前提是你必須非常享受在當中，而不必在乎有著大批的觀眾，對吧？
YUNOR
Yes. I think that that's, that's the, that's the main problem with a lot of bands.
是的，我認為這是很多樂團的主要問題。
I think they watch too much movies or, you know, like, oh, yeah, I want to, I want a limo. No, man. Like, I guess that helps. I'm coming from underground. We used to rough it out, sleep on sofa, slept on floor before, you know, but fine. When you get a nice small hotel, you're happy. Fine, whatever. But, what is your priority?
我覺得他們看太多電影，或者想著「對！我要一台禮車」[來接我]，當然這很令人心動。我是從地下音樂圈出來的，我們曾經在沙發上、在地板上睡覺，但沒關係的，當你能住進一家不錯的小酒店時，你就會感到開心，無論如何，你要知道什麼是你的優先事項。
10.全職還是兼職音樂人，重要嗎？
You know, it's like, for example, I always joke that I never take holidays. Holidays is boring. Go there, what? Sit around, spend money. I'd rather get touring, playing. I get to know the community. I get to meet people. I get to engage, you know? Yeah. And I'll sell same merchandise, you know, to cover some costs. you know, these are questions I must, I will ask some friends who play music. Hey, what's it, you know, you want to do music, right? Like, come on. I mean, like, why you, you know, save up a bit. Yeah.
就像我總是開玩笑地說我從來不度假，假期很無聊，要去那裡和做什麼？坐整天然後花錢？我寧願去巡演，我能認識地方社區，和人有互動。沒錯，我也會賣周邊商品來彌補一些成本，這些都是我必須問一些玩音樂的朋友的問題。「嘿！你知道，你想做音樂，對吧？這樣就好。」我的意思是為什麼你不省點錢呢？
I've never asked a single cent from Malaysian government. Oh, okay. For, for touring. Yeah, yeah. Everything's come from, you know, I save up. I, I sell my merch, whatever.
我的巡演從來都沒用過馬來西亞政府的一毛錢，一切經費都來自於我的存款以及販售我的周邊產品。
It's ironic because I'm an advisor for government agencies for funding. Yeah. They ask me, but I've never asked a single cent.
這相當諷刺，因為我是政府單位補助機構的顧問，他們找我諮詢，但我從來沒有要求過任何一分錢。
HO
Nowadays in Taiwan, a lot of independent bands actually is funded by the government.
台灣有很多獨立樂團是有拿政府補助的。
YUNOR
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's great. Cause I think that awareness. There's been a lot of Taiwanese and Malaysian, like some festival organizers would come to Malaysia and do like a showcase. Recently there was one and I got to know some people. That's when I realized, wow, yeah, Taiwanese government has funding. Malaysia only started maybe the last few years. It's great. I'm on that. I was. I was on that committee as an advisor.
那太好了，這種意識很不錯，因為其實有很多來自台灣和馬來西亞之間的交流，例如一些音樂節的組織者會來馬來西亞舉辦Showcase展演，我最近也認識了一些人，這時我才意識到「哇！台灣政府有補助資源」。馬來西亞大概在這幾年才開始，這真的是很棒，我曾在那個委員會擔任顧問。
HO
So if you got a chance, do you want to take money from the government?
所以如果你有機會，你會想從政府那裡獲得資金嗎？
YUNOR
No, paperwork man. (Laugh). I'm too lazy. But I, I'll see. I mean like, yeah, we'll see. but I already have my way of operating. If I can operate on this level, unless like, for example, I want to bring my band. Yeah. Then I might. So, so maybe, maybe yeah. If I want to scale up, I will need more funding. This is why a lot of my bandmates, you know, they, some of them are full time musicians, some aren't.
才不要勒，（笑）太多文書工作了，我太懶了，不過我會再看看，我們再看看。我已經有自己的運作方式，如果我能在這個層次上運作，像是帶我的樂團過去，那我有可能會，或許如果要擴大規模，我將需要更多的資金。這就是為什麼我有很多樂隊成員，其中一些是全職音樂家，有些則不是。
HO
How do they survive?
他們如何生存？
YUNOR
A lot of us [are] multi hyphenates, right? We do different things. Yeah. And, and to me, I would tell friends, like, there's no shame in that. I have some younger musician friends who say like, oh, you know, I've been a full-time musician. So like, why, why does that distinction of full-time, part-time matter?
我們很多人都有多重身份，斜槓。對我來說，我會告訴朋友這並沒有什麼好羞愧的，我有一些年輕的音樂人朋友會說:「哦！你知道！我一直是全職音樂人。」但全職和兼職的區別為何重要呢？
HO
Exactly.
的確如此。
YUNOR
Yeah. So what I spent 12 hours working in a bank, but I play music [for] two hours. You don't quantify it that way. Those two hours is more meaningful than 12 hours. You are full time anyway. Yeah. It's just that it doesn't pay as well as working in a bank, for example, you know? So I think those distinctions also, I guess it's a form of decolonization about what work and what your calling or vocation is, you know? So I think people simplify those things too much. “I want to be full-time musician.” You know, it's not easy being full-time musician. You end up being a pop, pop musician, you know? Exactly. Yeah.
是的，就像是我在銀行工作12個小時，但我只花2個小時在音樂上，你不能夠這樣量化，這2個小時比12個小時更具有意義，所以無論如何你都是全職的，只是這份工作賺得不如在銀行工作多。舉個例子，我認為這些區別也是一種去殖民化的表現，關於你的工作和使命或職業是什麼，我認為人們過度簡化了這些事，就像是說「我想成為全職音樂人」，但成為全職音樂人並不容易，你最終可能成為一名流行音樂人，你知道吧?。
HO
So music is a kind, it's kind of windows, right? For you.
所以音樂對你來說是一種窗口，對吧？
YUNOR
Yes. Yes. Yes.
是的。
Ho
You see different kinds of things. And we, we need different kinds of windows. Not just one.
你能看到不同的事物，我們需要不同的窗口，不僅僅是一扇。
YUNOR
Of course. Of course. Can't have one window, then the sunlight one side only, you know? You need more windows, man. Yeah. Yeah. So more windows better, you know? So it's, it's. And also, I think if you work…you do have another job, extra, whatever, you also empathize with the working person, the everyday person. Musicians live in kind of a bubble, right? You know, wake up after sunset, sleep when the sunrise. You live in a different world. How are you going to write about the everyday people? That's why you become a…dancing monkey on stage. You become [an] entertainer. So people treat you that way.
當然，不能只有一扇窗口，否則陽光只會從一邊進來。你需要更多的窗口，越多越好。而且如果你有其他工作，無論是什麼，你也會對那些日常工作的人產生共鳴。音樂人常生活在一種泡泡中，日落後醒來，日出時睡覺，如果你生活在一個不同的世界，要怎麼寫出日常人們的故事呢？這就是為什麼你會成為舞台上跳舞的猴子，娛樂者，人們就會這樣對待你。
HO
Exactly. So you have to engage your life.
沒錯，你必須投入你的生活。
YUNOR
Yeah. I understand your struggle, man. Yeah. Yeah. Screw the boss, man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Musician doesn't have a boss.
對，「我懂你的掙扎，去他的老闆」。但音樂人沒有老闆。
HO
That's what we call authenticity, sincerity, right?
這就是我們所說的真誠性吧。
YUNOR
Yeah. Yeah. So use that. For me, that's a pathway into understanding solidarity with fellow human beings. Cause majority people have to work, do things they don't like.
的確，要運用這一點，對我來說這是一種與他人產生團結感受的途徑，因為大多數人得工作，不喜歡的工作也得做。
HO
That's the power of your music, right? People can communicate, say, okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Although you are not like, you are not me, but we, we know what you're trying to do. Using the sound of the music as a way of being together and sticking together.
這就是你音樂的力量，對吧？人們可以交流，雖然你並不是我，但我們知道你所經歷的嘗試，運用音樂的聲音作為團結和互相支持的方式。
YUNOR
Let’s face the fact. A lot musicians will live in a fantasy. They live in a fantasy of being a musician because you grew up seeing a rock poster. “Hmm I want to be like that.” Recently I saw one very interesting quote. I can't remember who was it but he was saying that he was backstage with Lou Reed and Lou Reed was looking at the mirror wearing sunglasses. He just said he looked at mirror and turned to him, “I want to be like him.” He was pointing to his mirror image—"I want to be like Lou Reed.” In other words, you know we all live whatever we want to be--a fantasy. Even you think of somebody or Lou Reed—"why he's isn't authentic?” but so we all have that. Let's face the fact. Our sense of identity is…it's too simplified to think it's not binary. It's a lot more, like the spectrums.
我們必須面對現實。很多音樂人活在幻想中，因為在長大過程中看到搖滾樂團的海報，想著「嗯，我想成為那樣的人。」最近我看到一個非常有趣的引述，但我不記得是誰說的，他說他在後台遇到Lou Reed，Lou Reed戴著太陽眼鏡看著鏡子，然後他指著自己在鏡子裡的影像說「我想成為Lou Reed」。換句話說，我們其實都活在我們想要成為的幻想中，即使你已經是某人了，Lou Reed難道不真實嗎？我們都是這樣，得面對現實。我認為這是非常重要的，因為我們的身份感被過於簡化了，不能簡單地認為它是二元的，而是一個更廣泛的光譜。
HO
That kind of back to our previous issue about the kind of colonial yeah because identity politics is a big issue right. Sometimes it’s easy to be consumed within or subsumed within the kind of marketing kind of consumerism. You are what you buy, you are blah blah blah, but identity is more [of a] spectrum.
這回到我們之前提到的殖民議題，因為認同政治是一個大議題，有時候很容易被消費主義的無所不在所消磨，而相信～諸如「你就是你買的東西」，但身份其實是光譜。
YUNOR
I find it interesting because I think I would treat identity politics like plasticine. I can make what I want, right? For example why I write the songs in Malay? Because I will write songs in Malay language and decide what to write is like what hasn't been written in about that. There's a song for the album called “Skodeng Blues.” Skodeng is a colloquial slang for peeping Tom but you use the term for religious moral police. I always wonder like why no people always use the word. Nobody's written a song about that! Okay okay I'll write it then if nobody wants to write it. So i will write things people never write.
我會把認同政治當作黏土，我可以按照我想要的方式來塑造它。例如，我要用馬來語寫什麼樣的歌，取決於那些尚未被寫下的事。像有一首歌是專輯裡的《Skodeng Blues偷窺者藍調》，Skodeng是一個俚語，意思是窺視者，但你也可以用這個詞來指稱宗教道德警察。我總是在想為什麼沒有人用這個詞，沒有人寫過這樣的歌？好吧，我來寫吧。如果沒
有人想寫的話，我就來寫。我來寫人們從未寫過的歌。
11.合而為一的專業：電影與新聞
HO
You mean track number four, “Skodeng Blues?”
你是指第四首《Skodeng Blues偷窺者藍調》嗎？
YUNOR
Yes so do check out the Youtube. You can see the English subtitles. My music videos on purpose from this album have English subtitles so that friends who don't speak the language can get, oh this is what Malaysia is about.
是的，可以上YouTube看，那支MV有英文字幕，我這張專輯的音樂影片有目的性地有放入英文字幕，以便不會說馬來語的朋友可以了解，喔，這就是馬來西亞的樣子。
HO
That's one thing about this digital era. You can put in YouTube and people can understand. You can do the editing, make new kind of channels so people can understand.
這就是數位時代的一個好處，你可以把它放上YouTube並讓人們理解，你也可以剪輯、創造新的頻道。
YUNOR
For a long time, I used to wonder. I was conflicted. I play music but my training is in film and journalism. How can these worlds meet? So thank you social media for coming because now those things come into picture. It's like my training has finally come into being. Let's face it, social media is reporting. It’s journalism. So every time we used to joke, like we went on tour with my friends after we performed. Next morning over breakfast everybody's on their phone right. Well reporting. So we are doing all that stuff.
長期以來，我一直有種困惑，我做音樂表演，但我的專業是電影和新聞，這兩個世界如何交會呢？感謝社群媒體的出現，他們交會了。現在我知道了，我的專業訓練終於合而為一。坦白說，社群媒體就是報導，它就是新聞，所以每次我們和朋友巡演後，演出完的第二天早上，大家都在吃早餐時看手機，對吧？寫貼文（報導）我們都在做這些事。
HO
Taking within own hands, like you said that the guitar is a tool right?
將事情掌握在自己手中，如同你說的，吉他是一種工具。
YUNOR
It’s true. I don't fetishize the guitar. I don't sit around and play. People have this idea- oh Azmyl play guitar. He probably got like 10 guitars at home- probably play guitar. Before this tour, I haven't played electric guitar since February [at a] festival. The string broke I only opened it up like a week before coming here. It's still broken. That's the last time I opened it. The excitement is when I pick it up and it's unfamiliar. Familiarity breeds contempt right, so I like a bit of that danger. You gotta fool yourself, to create this moment of excitement.
這是真的，我沒有吉他拜物情結，我不會坐在那裡彈吉他，但人們可能會以為，「哦，彈吉他的Azmyl，他家裡可能有十幾把吉他，然後就沒日沒夜的彈」。其實沒有的，這次巡演前，我的電吉他自從二月以來就沒彈過，我上次在音樂節表演過，但有根弦斷了，我來這裡前一週才打開它，它還是壞的，那是我最後一次打開它。你知道當我拿起它時，有種因為陌生而產生的興奮感，太熟悉的東西容易讓人自滿。我喜歡有一點危險，你必須「欺騙」自己並創造這種興奮的時刻。
HO
Ｗhat do you mean by fool yourself?
你指的「欺騙」自己是什麼意思?
YUNOR
Trick yourself, like my temptations after the gig maybe I have to change that string, [or] maybe I should wipe the sweat on my guitar. But I don't. I leave it there. Open it up. Oh the strings are broken. Ah man, is it still working? (HO: back to the childish kind of innocence) Yes! Yes. Completely opposite of what let's say if you're (HO: Playful yeah) Playful! I think that concept play is so important because that's what made you excited about—whether it is drawing or music. You know it becomes your job…like I tell my film students: Look, you're gonna make videos and film for work, but you gotta save some space for your own thing. What do you want to do yeah? Don't forget that yeah or this becomes just a job. So same thing with music like if you're a pop musician and you're playing “Hotel California” 200 times a week. What do you actually want to do? You want to do like uh, well some guitar solos on your own? Do that!
欺騙自己，就像我剛提到拜物誘惑的例子，演出後也許覺得我得換那根弦，或許我應該擦擦吉他上的汗水，然而我沒有這樣做，我就讓它那樣放著。之後打開來看，「哦，琴弦壞了！啊，這還能用嗎？」（HO：回到當孩子般的感覺）是的，完全相反的（HO：玩耍般）玩耍般！「玩」的概念是非常重要的，因為這讓你對無論是畫畫還是音樂等事都會感到興奮。
當這變成了你的工作…我常告訴我的電影學生，你們將為工作拍片，但你必須為自己留下一些空間，就是你想做什麼，不要忘記這一點，否則這只會變成一份工作。音樂也是一樣，如果你是一個音樂人，每週演唱200次的「Hotel California加州旅館」，那你必須問自己，究竟你想做什麼？你想做吉他獨奏嗎？那就去做吧！
HO
So this is the lesson for the youngster: Give yourself some space for playing things that you never meant to do and just do it.
給年輕人的建言：留空間去做你從未想過的事情，然後就去做吧。
YUNOR
Yes. And question industry narratives!
沒錯。也別忘了質疑產業敘事！
12.第三曲目表演 “It’s Not Easy“不容易啊
Words and Music: Azmyl Yunor
I dedicate the song to all of you, creative types out there you know. I know nowadays it’s hard to earn a big living doing creative and that stuff. Meaningful stuff sometimes take a while to really grow its root and back root. So this song goes to all of you out there. It’s not easy but it’s worth it. Because we have a business of turning shit to gold.
This song is called “It’s Not Easy.”
我將這首歌獻給你們，所有 的創作者，我知道如今從事創意工作很難賺到很多錢，有意義的東西經常需要一段時間才能真正扎根和得到回報，所以這首歌獻給你們所有人，《It’s Not Easy》《不容易啊》，但這是值得的，因為我們的事業是把狗屎變成黃金。
這首歌叫做《It’s Not Easy》《不容易啊》。
It's not easy being different
做另類的事不容易啊
It's not like you meant it to be this way
也不是自己意圖中的發展
But it's made you tough and patient
它讓你更有強大，更有耐心
You're used to feeling dismayed
即使你感到沮喪
What don't kills you makes you stronger
不能殺死你的，會讓你更強大
What don't kills you makes you stronger
不能殺死你的，會讓你更強大
It's not easy being patient
更有耐心並不容易
It's not like everyone else is anyway
反正也不是每個人都如此
Turning rocks into diamonds
將石頭變成鑽石
That's your calling & your trade
那是你的使命和行業
What don't fills you feeds your hunger
無法滿足你的，會讓你更飢渴
What don't fills you feeds your hunger
無法滿足你的，會讓你更飢渴
So wave goodbye
請揮手告別
To the miseries of yesteryears
向昨日的苦難
And take pride
抬頭挺胸
In what you've gained
對於你的收穫
In turning shit to gold
對於將狗屎變成黃金
You saved a soul
你拯救了一個靈魂
（口琴）
What don't kills you makes you stranger （重複X2）
不能殺死你的，會讓你更強大
So wave goodbye
請揮手告別
To the miseries of yesteryears
向昨日的苦難
And take pride
抬頭挺胸
In what you've gained
對於你的收穫
In turning shit to gold
對於將狗屎變成黃金
You saved a soul
你拯救了一個靈魂
Terima kasih
Thank you
謝謝謝謝!
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