European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen this week initiated a conversation about a security partnership with Australia. Prime Minister Anthony Albanese responded with a ‘maybe, sort of’.

To talk about this development and much more, we have Nathalie Tocci, director of the Istituto Affari Internazionali, former adviser to two EU presidents and one of the world’s top experts on European foreign and strategic policy. Nathalie gives her thoughts on the link between European and Indo-Pacific security, the China-Russia relationship, the centrality of Ukraine to European security, and the best and worst possibilities for US support to Ukraine under Donald Trump.

Nathalie also outlines her (very useful) theory about ‘thick’ and ‘thin’ norms as foundations for international cooperation, and expands on a wonderful line she wrote recently in the Guardian about what it would take for Europe to pull itself together security-wise.