New Worlder

Uruguayan-Peruvian photographer Luis Fabini lives in New York and is the author of the books Gauchos and Cowboys of the Americas, for which he spent more than 10 years shooting different cowboys from South America to Alaska. Gauchos come up a lot in our conversation. Their way of life and way of looking at the world. They are what lead him to the project he is working on now, called Harvests, exploring the relationship between humans, food and the land. He has a vision for the world that I think lines up a lot with my own, which is why I’m really interested in where he goes with this photographic undertaking. I have followed Luis’ work for many years, but I only met him in person a few weeks ago in New York. I was honored for him to take my portrait and we also hung out a bit. He grew up moving between South America, New York and Europe. He lived in Japan for a few years. He’s traveled widely and exhibited his work all over the world. He’s an interesting guy and I’m glad I was able to speak with him here.

See more at www.newworlder.com.

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Host: Nicholas Gill
Co-host: Juliana Duque
Produced by Nicholas Gill & Juliana Duque
Recording & Editing by New Worlder 
Email: [email protected]
Read more at New Worlder: https://www.newworlder.com

Alberto Landgraf is the chef of Oteque in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. During our conversation we discuss how he has created a healthy work environment at his restaurant. For him, the culture of the staff, giving them growth opportunities and having a work life balance is integral to how good of an experience the diners have there. It’s a lot of common sense, but it’s refreshing to hear a chef really think about it and understand something so obvious. We also discuss how he is opening a Brazilian restaurant called Bossa in London in May. How we never got to debate storytelling in food at an event in Slovenia that was canceled because of the pandemic. How he started cooking while living in London because a friend saw his leadership skills on a futbol field and offered him a job. And we talk about stagiers, what happened during the Olympics, the fundamentals of a French kitchen, and lots of things about Brazil. We talk for more than an hour, but I still feel like I barely scratched the surface with Alberto.

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Host: Nicholas Gill
Co-host: Juliana Duque
Produced by Nicholas Gill & Juliana Duque
Recording & Editing by New Worlder 
Email: [email protected]
Read more at New Worlder: https://www.newworlder.com

Jeremy Chan is the chef of the London restaurant Ikoyi, a two Michelin star restaurant built around spice. Jeremy just came out with a book from Phaidon, called Ikoyi: A Journey Through Bold Heat, which describes at length his Chinese-Canadian background, his youth in Hong Kong and England, studying language at Princeton, working in finance, shifting his focus to cooking and how he jumped from kitchen to kitchen asking loads of questions and absorbing as much as he can.

We discuss how Ikoyi, the restaurant he created with his childhood friend Iré Hassan-Odukale, is often misunderstood. While there are elements of Sub-Saharan Africa on his menu, he clarifies that the Ikoyi is not a Nigerian restaurant and was never supposed to be one, even though the media has built a narrative that it is one. He describes, while he is inspired by these flavors, namely the bold spices used there, and his partner is from Nigeria and the restaurant’s name comes from a neighborhood in Lagos, he’s never felt that culture was his story to tell. Rather, he uses spices – not just West African, but global spices – without their cultural context. He simply focuses on the flavors and how he personally relates to them and finds ways to express them. Even as everyone has continually tried to pigeonhole Ikoyi, he remains defiant. He’s just cooking to the best of his ability in the way he thinks is best. Whether you agree with his approach or not, you have to respect how he is able to trust his own instincts and block out all the noise.

See a full transcript at www.newworlder.com.

--
Host: Nicholas Gill
Co-host: Juliana Duque
Produced by Nicholas Gill & Juliana Duque
Recording & Editing by New Worlder 
Email: [email protected]
Read more at New Worlder: https://www.newworlder.com

Nayan Gowda is the British born winemaker of Indian descent for Jardín Oculto, which makes wines from grapes grown from ancestral, ungrafted vines in the Cinti Valley of Bolivia. I haven’t met Nayan before, but I’ve wanted to speak with him for a long time and understand how he arrived in Bolivia. He’s a fascinating guy and the wines they are making in this corner of Bolivia, not far from Tarija, are really special. From what I’ve seen, the vineyards look more like a forest. Many are 200-years old and they grow vertically on molle and chañar trees, often more than 3 meters high. They have to be harvested by ladders, that’s how high they are.

I haven’t been to Cinti Valley and even to the Tarija area for many years, so my exposure to Jardin Oculto and other Bolivian wines has mostly been through Gustu in La Paz – which only serves Bolivian wines, not to mention spirits and beers. But it’s a new era emerging in winemaking in the country and Nayan and María Jose Granier, who owns the winery and comes from a well-known Bolivian winemaking family, are at the forefront of it. They are really exploring and experimenting with the country’s criolla grapes – the grape varieties that were developed in the Americas and once dominated, but were eventually displaced by better selling European varieties. Most that grew criolla grapes in recent years have done so for blending into cheap table wines, but winemakers like Nayan and others around the continent are looking at them differently now. It’s opening up new possibilities of wine around the region and it is giving me a lot to write about. - Nicholas Gill

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Partial Episode Transcript

On his path to Bolivia and working with criolla varieties

Nayan: “I have a past prior to making wine. I’ve done various things. Project management chef-ing. I used to get bored very, very easily, basically. I ended up being Program Manager for JP Morgan and that allowed me to save up enough money basically to run away to Australia to study winemaking at Adelaide University. That was at the age of 30 or 31 that I decided to reinvent myself as a winemaker.

So, I've been making wine now for the past 18 years, which is quite scary. It makes me feel suddenly very old. Bolivia is a country that I've always wanted to come to. I always wanted to visit. I had friends who traveled around Bolivia and they always raved about it and said it was such an amazing place. I helped run a Facebook group for international winemakers. We've been going since 2007. I think we've got 54,000 active members. It’s massive. And it's a place for people to exchange information. But it's also a place for winemakers to look for jobs internationally and people to advertise roles that they have. So, the end of 2019, María Jose Granier, who founded Jardín Oculto, advertised there. And I noticed the advert to approve it, administrator’s privileges, and basically replied within about five minutes. I was on plane basically in January 2020.”

Nick: “She comes from a family of winemakers, right?”

Nayan: “That's right. The family own Campos de Solana and Casa Real.

Nick: “So there was a traditional growing grapes in the family, and she wanted to do something different?”

Nayan: “Yes. So, she had to she did used to work for Campos and Casa and decided she wants to branch out on her own and do something independent, on a smaller scale, but also primarily focused on the heritage varieties that we have. Grape growing has happened here ever since the Spanish invasion or conquest, depending which way you look at it. And we have grapevines that are in excess of 200 years old and it's a heritage worth preserving and celebrating.”

Nick: “Even before Bolivia, you were kind of traveling around and making wine in places that were non typical regions. I have been looking at your history, and there’s not so much like France and Italy, but more like Ukraine and Kazakhstan. I'm not even sure what else. So, your interest has been in off beat, winemaking destinations.”

Nayan: “I kind of, sort of fell into it. One of the reasons I became a winemaker is that I travel. I used to do a lot of backpacking. In my 20s, I used to basically do a contract or a job and disappear, and then to come back. With winemaking it allows me to immerse myself in a culture for three months or more, to really get to understand a place through people. And it's just something I really enjoy.”

Nick: “I can't say I’ve had a Ukrainian wine or anything from Kazakhstan, but I'm sure there are fascinating grapes there.”

Nayan: “I honestly, most places around the world, they have the so called International varieties. Cabernet sauvignon. Merlot. Cabernet Franc. In Ukraine, we did have a couple of regional grape varieties like saperavi, but Kazakhstan was just purely international.”

Nick: “Anyway, I'm sure the resulting wines that comes out of those landscapes are different no matter what grapes you plant.”

Nayan: “Without a doubt.”

Nick: “So you connect with Maria. And you get to Cinti Valley. Did she already have the vineyards there?”

Nayan: “We don't actually own our own. We work with a series of growers. It's a partnership insofar as obviously we pay them money for them, but also we try to help them with their viticulture. To improve their practices, to reduce the inputs that they need. Part of the long term aim of the project is to try to go to organic as much as we can. We're not there yet, but we've managed to reduce their spraying dramatically, which is a good thing and saves them money.”

Nick: “So, these vines, these 200-year-old vines, in this place… what were they doing with the grapes before?”

Nayan: “Mostly they were just sold to be blended into bulk wine. That was the negra criolla and vischoqueña. They just put it into cheap table wine. So, they actually celebrated for themselves. And in fact, most of the small producers in the Cinti Valley rarely released a single varietal heritage variety. They have started the past few years, but not traditionally.”Nick: “So, before, you wouldn't really see a negra criolla or vischoqueña. I remember ever seeing something like that until like you guys came along?”

Nayan: “Not really. I mean, one of the things that we have done is that we've influenced the other producers and helped give them confidence to release single varietals, which is fantastic.”

Nick: “The interest is there now, but even five years ago, I think wine has changed quite quickly. And in South America in general is really fascinating. The interest in growing criolla varieties, and just people wanting something other than, you know, noble grapes. It's fascinating, and it's exciting. I think we're really just tapping into the future here.”

Nayan: “Also I think, a stylistic thing. As you turn the Nobel grapes, French varieties, the cabernets and the malbecs, and such like, generally they have been made into very big, robust, oaky wines. That's not something you can really do with these criolla varieties. They're just to delicate. So you have to make more delicate, ethereal wines with them. You have to handle them a little more gently in the using new oak. And I think there's definite general global trends to move to these wines, but I think that's starting to build in South America as well, where people are looking for lighter, fresher styles. That's what the criolla vines can give.”

Nick: “It's exciting because in , and Argentina, and even in Peru, it's like there's a whole new range of wine that's opening up. I’m excited every time I'm down there. There's always another wine that I haven't seen before, somebody new coming out with something. It's building and it's growing. And people like you doing something in Bolivian gives other people confidence, as you said, and it's just spreading. There's a lot of good wine that wasn't there before. A lot of new wines and different kinds of wines. And it's fun. It makes my job much easier.”

On working with Bolivia’s 200-year-old vines

Nick: “So, when you first got to Bolivia, what did you think when she told you what she wanted to do? Did you think she was crazy? Or were you immediately fascinated and wanted to give it a try?”

Nayan: “Absolutely, immediately fascinated. I mean, she told me a little bit about the vineyards over the phone and, obviously, when we first met in person in Bolivia. But talking about the vineyards, seeing pictures and actually going to visit the vineyards are two completely different things. Walk into the vineyard for the first time, I think I managed to last about 10 minutes before my head was spinning. It was absolutely mind blowing. I didn't ever see anything like that.”

Nick: “What surprised you?”

Nayan: “Traditionally, the criolla varieties, especially negra criolla, were planted using native tree to support. So, as the tree grew, the vine grew. Essentially, the natural habitat for a grapevine is to climb trees. I've seen images in textbooks, but when you're actually confronted by something that is between three and five meters high, has the girth of an elephant leg and is 300 years old… it’s humbling. It has kind of become a little hobby now. We describe the vines to people, but when we take when we actually take them there physically, we spend more time taking pictures of their faces to see their reaction.”

Nick: “So, these trees, are molle, or pink peppercorn? And what else?”Nayan: “We have another one called chañar.”

Nick: “So these big trees are just growing up to the sky and I'm curious, because they're growing so vertically, do higher grapes have a different sugar content than lower grapes and like things like that?”

Nayan: “We're still learning. It does seem to be that the fruit higher up the vine is more advanced in ripeness. I think it was last year, we kind of came to the conclusion that we could, instead of having to keep running up and down the vines to do fruits, which, quite frankly, is just exhausting, we could actually make a fair guess on overall ripeness by looking at the berries at the bottom. If we had an average of about 11.8 baume, that would mean that the resulting wine was probably going to be about 13.2. That were for it last year, so that's, we're trialing that again this year to see if it works.”

Nick: “For harvesting you need ladders, right? Is there any other wine in the world that's, like, quite like this?”

Nayan: “There are all similar vines in Chile, in Itata. I know that much. There's some in Georgia and there are some in Tuscany. I think Sardinia as well. But it's not common. There’s nobody we can talk to about our issues.”

Nick: “What about challenges in making the wine. Let's start with altitude. What's the altitude of where the vineyards are?”

Nayan: “The city is about 2300 meters, then the height of the vine. So that in itself is not particularly challenging. I mean, the first few visits, it's literally breathtaking. I'm not used to the altitude, right up to that point. And then we've got mountains that go up to about 4200 meters between here and there. And actually, one of the things that works in our favor is the altitude. We will harvest the grapes on one day and processing them the next. We will lorry with the grapes and we'll get them to park on the highest part of the route on the way home. And they will basically spend the nights there where it gets down to between two and five degrees centigrade. So, we harvest the grapes at an ambient temperature of about 25 to 28, but they arrive at the winery the next morning at eight o'clock in the morning at about five to eight degrees centigrade.”

Nick: “What does that do? How does that affect the process?”

Nayan: “It just allows you to have that bit more control. When you crush the grapes or press them likewise you'll have less oxidation and a lower risk of spontaneous fermentation.”

Nick: “And the wines are being made in Tarija. It's much lower?”

Nayan: “It's 1900 meters.”

Nick: “So, it's more reasonable, I guess.”

Nayan: “It's weird. Yeah.”

Nick: “So what are their challenges just being in Bolivia, because I know for the wines you're trying to make it can't be easy. Just equipment and things like that.”

Nayan: “Exactly. The big challenge is equipment for us. Everything that we want has to come in from overseas, which, with the Bolivian aduana, that process can take three months, five months, and generally speaking, the cost involved because of shipments and also customs fees mean that any piece of equipment we buy is much more expensive than it's sold at.”

The wines they are making at Jardín Oculto

Nayan: “We have a core range of stuff. We have essentially three single vineyard negra criollas. Two dry whites one which is made from muscatel. The other one which is blanc de noir, which is made from two are made from vischoqueña. And we make a sparkling wine from the vischoqueña as well, again, a blanc de noir. We do lots of other little bits of experimentation too. María Jose allows me to have a place to do 40 liters of this and 40 liters of that, just to push the styles that we do, but also what Bolivia can do. I kind of want to show people that Bolivia can make more than just big reds.”

Nick: “Are there any that you're really excited about? Are there any that have surprised you with how they're coming out?”

Nayan: “So one reason I want to expand the portfolio, just on a small basis, is that we really like entertaining. And I wanted to create a wine that would go with every course that we did with a meal. I call it a dessert wine for example. We have two different styles of dessert wine. One, which we call Alto Bordeaux, which is from Vischoqueña, but this time we treat it as a red. So that's done traditionally. So we prepared a fortified wine and then we stop the fermentation and fortify it with singani. It's this uniquely Bolivia, Port style wine. And then I make a sort of an homage to Muscat or muscatel. Again, these grapes are harvested and then the bunches are dried for about a month until quite raisiny. And then we crushed them and ferment them on the skins for a period of time, 45 days, and it comes out at 268 grams per liter of sugar. It's sweet, but it's a great match for a lot of desserts. So those two styles are just for lots of desserts.”

Nick: “The sparkling wine. Tell me about that. Is that difficult with the altitude and everything?”

Nayan: “Sparkling wines at altitude can be quite a challenge, especially when, like us, we don't really have the ability to help stabilize, so we will be getting crystal formation in the bottle. When you have any kind of deposit in a bottle of sparkling wine, it creates a nucleation site for carbon dioxide, especially at high altitudes. Our biggest customer pretty much is Gustu (in La Paz), so if you open a bottle of wine, it if it's not stable it will hit the ceiling. So, what we have chosen to do is to actually reduce the pressure. A standard champagne sparkling wine is at approximately six bar supervisory pressure. Our sparkling wine is at about three bars of pressure. It's much more mousse. Part of the reason was that it would be less volatile when opening a bottle.”

Quotes from this interview have been gently edited for context and clarity.

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Marko Ayling is the American born, Mexico City based writer of the Substack newsletter The Missive. It’s a dispatch of his life in Mexico and world travels. He is a former Youtuber, who built up a following of more than a million subscribers to his channel Vagabrothers, which he created with his brother more than a decade ago. He talks about what that life was like, how exhausting it was, the ups and downs of YouTube, and what he is trying to do on Substack. He has a lot to say about making a living as a creator within this world of the internet and social media. Before YouTube fame he studied economics and worked in development in India, and sine the pandemic he has been living in Mexico City, where media reports about remote workers intensifying gentrification are frequent.


I think a lot of everything we speak about and what I have been writing about in the newsletter is related to some degree. Globalization and the issues surrounding it, increasing inequality, division driven by algorithms. I personally have been trying to make sense of the economics of being a writer, which have been disastrous since content began moving towards to the internet, which basically began within a couple of years after I started making a living as a writer. Yet, it’s more than just my own economics. How we live, where we live, and why we are living there and doing the things we are doing. We are all trying to make sense of this changing world.

New Worlder is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber at: www.newworlder.com.

--
Host: Nicholas Gill
Co-host: Juliana Duque
Produced by Nicholas Gill & Juliana Duque
Recording & Editing by New Worlder 
Email: [email protected]
Read more at New Worlder: https://www.newworlder.com

José Gonzales is the chef and owner of the restaurant Al Mercat Dota in the mountains of Costa Rica, which is attached to a small ecolodge. It’s a big change for Jose. He is one of the most talented chefs in Latin America and spent years cooking in France, but for many years Al Mercat was in San Jose. He is someone that could have very easily focused on 50 Best rankings and media attention, but he has consistently chosen his happiness and making a life for himself that was sustainable. He grew up on farms and he speaks often of Costa Rica being a País Comestible, an edible country, which he grew up living but couldn’t really express in San José. He's happier now. You’ll hear it in his voice in the interview. You hear his excitement about cooking and living surrounded by nature and picking avocados from a tree.We talk a lot about dysfunction in restaurants.

Noma announced it was closing in a couple of years, well sort of. There’s still going to be a Noma. And I feel like we already knew all of this but whatever. But anyway, there’s all of this talk about how restaurants cannot work, but there is rarely talk about how they can. I think the choices José has made and keeps making is one of those ways. He is figuring out how it can work for him. You’re probably not going to get a fruit leather beetle made by a stagier at Al Mercat Dota, but you’ll get his heart and soul with whatever you are served.There is always going to be fine dining. I think Noma could even charge double and they would still be full every day. Would that change the restaurant? Maybe instead of the same international foodies that go there every season it would just be those people that go there once in their lifetime. A very special occasion. A front row seat to a Rolling Stones concert would still cost more. Or maybe we just don’t need fruit leather beetles? Maybe we just need more José’s cooking their hearts out everywhere.

--
Host: Nicholas Gill
Co-host: Juliana Duque
Produced by Nicholas Gill & Juliana Duque
Recording & Editing by New Worlder 
Email: [email protected]
Read more at New Worlder: https://www.newworlder.com

Alejandra Salamanca is a Colombian Culinary Anthropologist and author of Abrazar la Tierra. She is also the executive director of FunLeo.

--
Host: Nicholas Gill
Co-host: Juliana Duque
Produced by Nicholas Gill & Juliana Duque
Recording & Editing by New Worlder 
Email: [email protected]
Read more at New Worlder: https://www.newworlder.com

Chiara Pavan and Francesco Brutto run a pair of restaurants, a fine dining restaurant and an osteria, at Venissa, a hospitality project on the island of Mazzorbo in Venice, Italy. Mazzorbo is in the northern part of the Venetian lagoon. It’s a small island connected to Burano, another small island with colorful houses where most tourists come on a day trip from the tourist core of Venice. Venissa is home to a small vineyard that contains almost the entire crop of the Dorona di Venezia grape, which is adapted to the salty earth and was rediscovered by Venissa’s owners

Their menu focuses on lesser fish and seafood of the lagoon and Adriatic, which means mostly invasive or overpopulated species, and they have been rallying Venice’s culinary community to do the same and it seems to be having some affect. Venice is a place where the effects of climate change are quite visual, making their story and the way they run their restaurant particularly fascinating. The changing waters have thrown the ecosystem of the lagoon off balance and, even though the city seems fine for now, rising ocean levels threaten its very foundation. Venice is symbolic of a much larger global story.  

I’m in love with what they are doing there. It’s the enchantment of the outer islands of Venice, which are almost surreal in their beauty. It’s their restaurants, which are exceptional and delicious, plus they also pour great wines there. It’s the entire vibe, which is relaxed and feels like luxury even though what they are doing is quite confrontational.

-Nicholas Gill

New Worlder is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Partial Episode Transcript

On Venice and Climate Change:

Nick: “Venice is often the poster child for climate change. When you think of rising sea waters, you think of Venice. But historically, there has always been rising oceans in Venice. There is the Alta Acqua and there have been great floods like in 1966 that wiped out vineyards and gardens and things. But why is it different now?”

Francesco: “Now, the frequency is becoming higher and higher. The problem has been solved a bit because they put MOSE (Modulo Sperimentale Elettromeccanico, Experimental Electromechanical Module), a system to block the water from the open sea, and the entrance to the lagoon.

Okay. And so, as of acouple of years until 15, 30, 40 years there will be no more acqua alta. The problem is the system was invented in 1993 and it wasn’t ready until 2021”.

Chiara: “After the big flood we had in 2019 they started to use it. Okay, so this system called MOSE was projected in the 1990s.”

Francesco: “But in this period the level of the sea got higher and this big, big, big machine that needs a lot of maintenance will not help, it won’t be useful in a few decades.”

Chiara: “We all know, we all know that the problem of the water that is coming out from the mountains because of the increase of the temperatures is increasing the sea level. It's all over the world, it’s not just Venice, but here is a big problem because the city is built on wood and it is going down. So, the entire city is slowly, slowly, slowly going down and with the high water the process is getting faster.

The water is getting bigger because of the high temperatures and the ice is melting down. That's the problem, but in Venice, it's difficult to understand how we can survive in, I don't know, 100 years. The fact is that the city is going down. And the fact is the water is always higher and higher. With MOSE, this structure they built in the 90s, at this very moment, the problem is a little bit solved. Because it prevents the water of the open sea from coming into the lagoon. So, it has been two years that we haven't seen Acqua Alta because of these structures, but because the level of water always will get higher. Probably in 50 years, this structure, this big monster we see, it will be useless”

Nick: “So what's going to happen?”Francesco: “We will be dead for sure. So, you know, when people say, Okay, it's a next generation problem? So, our children will have this problem of for sure.”

Nick: “All right. Well, that's, that's depressing.”

Chiara: “The increase of the temperature is because we don't eat properly. Because of the food industry. So, our commitment, what we want to do is to give an idea, an alternative idea of what we should eat, and how we have to behave with the nature around us.”

Nick: “Speaking of the nature around you, the waters are changing. The temperature of the water is changing around Venice. There are different species there that weren't there ever before. When I was there, I kept hearing about invasives and I could see jellyfish in the water, just walking on a pier and things like that. So, you are cooking these things that are invasive and you're trying to create an appetite for these things. And I think a lot of other restaurants in Venice that I went to, everyone's kind of talking about this. Is it adaptation? Or is it trying to get rid of the invasives?”

Francesco: “Both of course. We've try to adapt to the environment that is changing rapidly. And, then, at the same time, we try to help nature fight against this invasion to become the first predictor of those species.”

Chiara: “We are trying to put ourselves on the top of the seafood chain. What is happening is that a lot of traditional species are dying. And a lot of alien species are coming with the ballast of the big boats and are spreading because of the high temperature and because they found a good place to live and reproduce themselves. For example, jellyfish. They feed on the same microorganisms, as the fish. So if there are less fish, they can survive and they can reproduce themselves and there's an open space for them. This year, we really focused on Alien and invasive species because there's a difference. Jellyfish are not an alien. They've always been here, but not many. Instead, there are alien species like blue crab, coming from the Atlantic with the ballast of the big boats. So Rapana venosa, it's Japanese snail.

Francesco: “It comes from the Yellow Sea. So, China and Japan.”

Nick: “It’s like a Whelk, like a big snail.”

Chiara: “And then blue fish and also lemon fish.

Francesco: “That comes from the subtropical area. It comes from the Mediterranean Sea, when the Suez Canal was open.”

Chiara: “We are using a kind of red clam.”

Francesco: “Have you ever tried the bloody clams.?”

Nick: “Yeah, in Latin America, there's quite a bit.”

Francesco: “Yes, they're not supposed to be here.”

Chiara: “So on our menu, you basically find only these kinds of species. So, the menu is divided in a plant based part and invasive species part. So that's what we are doing.”

Francesco: “We are trying to give people a different way of eating to help nature.”

Nick: “I think it's a really important role that chefs have right now, especially with these kinds of things, is teaching people how to eat these species that are kind of overwhelming us. That are aren't in the right place. And just teaching us how to eat what's in our area instead of a package shipped from China or whatever industrial foods coming from who knows where that had been grown in Mexico and processed in Thailand. Just eating what's around us. But most people don't understand what they have around them. And I think by going to a place like your restaurant, they have some awareness of this. And it's really important. I'm not going anywhere else with that. It's just really important.”

Chiara: “And you know what, I think it's working because we've been cooking, for example, blue crab, for three years. And three, four years ago I think we were the first cooking it in Venice. Now, a lot of restaurants are proposing blue crab. It's beginning to have a market.”

Francesco: “We can fight with an army again.”

Nick: “I think it's important to have that mentality because a lot of times, I’m pointing out like specific cases, but in the Gulf of Mexico, there are a lot of lionfish, suddenly. It's always just one chef and one country that's using lionfish, but they're just one restaurant and they're not having any impact whatsoever on the lionfish population from spreading. It's just a marketing gimmick. But if you can have your entire community, have an appetite for these invasives it, I think it can have an impact. If you're sharing knowledge and spreading that, encouraging other people and you're not like guarding the secret of the blue crab, it actually can have an impact. And it takes it takes an army, like you said, and I think that's the total right mentality to have. And it's wonderful.”

Chiara: “We arrived at this kind of awareness after a few years. We arrived in some steps. We started three years ago, cutting down animal proteins. We cut off meat completely from the menu in order to cut down animal proteins and because we are on an island, we could serve a birds, but we decided to send a message and to cut out all meat. Okay, so that was the first step. The second step was we increased our gardens so we could decide what kind of vegetables to grow and employing ancient seeds. We really spent one year figuring out how to how to increase the biodiversity in our garden. So for one year, maybe our menu was more vegetarian than now, because these last two years we focused on the invasive species to start with. There’s was a lot to arrive here at this point.”

Francesco: “Now it's quite an equilibrium.”

Chiara: “A nice balance. We decided to use animal proteins but in this way. So this is what we do in Michelin star restaurant, then with Osteria is not so easy because people want to eat more traditional. I think that tradition is not a problem, but something like a problem.”

Nick: “Explain, explain.”

Chiara: “We are so lucky because we are in Italy and we have wonderful food traditions, also very old traditions, but at the same time, we have to go ahead and try to find new traditions.”

Nick: “You have to adapt. What you're eating is very different than what someone was eating…I mean, the products you get are very different than what someone had 50 or 100 years ago.”

Chiara: “Yeah, that's the that's the point of the message we want to give.”

On Traditional Venetian Cuisine:

Chiara: “We have been working with millet, which used to be traditional in the Venetian Republic. It was a widely used cereal here.

Nick: “Why did it disappear?”

Chiara: “Because of the culture.”

Francesco: “Because it's not so good to eat [laughs]. In the end of the Serenissima Republic, millet saved the Republic from an invasion made by the Genoa Republic. They don't have food anymore in the city center of Venice, they milled it and they started to eat millet from breakfast to lunch to dinner and they saved themselves and they won against Genoa at the time. And so it was very important and we are trying to use it again.”

Chiara: “We've been trying to use it again. We did millet tempeh because it's full of proteins. It probably arrived with Romans because it comes from Africa, then it was very popular in the French Republic. Now it's not used anymore.”

Nick: “So, at least in my mind, the traditional cuisine of Venice is not quite so traditional in the sense that, like elsewhere in Italy, where there's a Nonna making pasta and all these things. I feel like it's always changing and always evolving. And just like the amount of spices and things that passed through historically, and just all the trade and all of these things, beinf a nexus point for all these idea. I mean, is that right? Am I incorrect? Or is there some kind of traditional cuisine that dates back 1000 years?”

Francesco: “It's correct. There was a huge amount of product that was traditionally used, but they actually changed over time and some things disappeared. In the resurgimiento, there were a lot of oysters. Wild oysters.”

Chiara: “This was in the 700s. At the end of the 700s oysters were so popular here. People were crazy for oysters. And they just ate all the oysters and the Venetian oysters disappeared. There is a history about Venetian culinary products, but recipes changed a lot because products. The tendency of products changed a lot. There are a lot of books about that. For example, the rich people in the Republic they didn't used to eat fish. They preferred eating meat. The Venetian Republic was not just Venice but was also the mountains around and they preferred to eat meat. There are some popular recipes that came with fish, but now we don't eat meat.”

Francesco: “For example, the fish that that they loved to eat came from Alexandria, Egypt. It was a sturgeon.”

Chiara: “Or dried lamb coming in from Croatia, what is now the east coast of Croatia.”

Francesco: “It was a curiosity for exotic products because Venice was a very, very fancy place.”

Chiara: “For many centuries they were very rich. So, they had products from abroad, and they ate meat. Fish was only for fishermen, for feeding the poor. But what we want to eat now is fish. So what we mean with tradition in dining, is fish, but the mission changed a lot. So that's why we don't have recipes like in Piedmont recipes. We have Sarde in Saor (Marinated Sardines), which is what the sailors used to eat when they when they were out at sea. We have these kinds of recipes. But you said it well, there are not so many recipes like in Emilia Romagna, or in Piedmont. It's interesting, but at the same time, it's a little bit confused. It's like there are different levels of tradition in Venice.”

Nick: “I think it's very symbolic of the of the whole world right now. People with enough money to buy the easy food from somewhere else. Just because food has gotten so cheap, very cheap, at least in cost to the wallet but not in the environment. But it's become so cheap that we always want the fillet. We always want the whatever's from somewhere far away. And maybe that mentality started in Venice, just because it was the point where everyone got so wealthy and because of trading and commerce and all of these things. It's fascinating that you two are doing the exact opposite right now.”

Quotes from this interview have been gently edited for context and clarity.

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Karime Lopez is the chef of Gucci Osteria in Florence, Italy.

--
Host: Nicholas Gill
Co-host: Juliana Duque
Produced by Nicholas Gill & Juliana Duque
Recording & Editing by New Worlder 
Email: [email protected]
Read more at New Worlder: https://www.newworlder.com

Rafa Costa e Silva is the chef of Lasai and Crypto Kitchen in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.

--
Host: Nicholas Gill
Co-host: Juliana Duque
Produced by Nicholas Gill & Juliana Duque
Recording & Editing by New Worlder 
Email: [email protected]
Read more at New Worlder: https://www.newworlder.com