Are all empires equally bad? If some were better than others, what criteria can we use to make such judgments? Why must we study networks, not only hierarchies, to understand our past, present, and future? What happens to societies in times of catastrophe, and who has the best chances of survival? And finally — why is Ukraine so important for the world today?

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Host: Volodymyr Yermolenko, a Ukrainian philosopher, editor-in-chief of UkraineWorld, and president of PEN Ukraine.

Guest: Niall Ferguson — a renowned British-American historian and author of numerous books, including “Empire”, “The Square and the Tower”, “The War of the World”, “Doom”, and others.

Ferguson is the Milbank Family Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution.

We had this conversation during the Yalta European Strategy Forum in Kyiv in September 2025.

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Thinking in Dark Times is a podcast of reflection from Ukraine. We try to see the light through — and despite — the current darkness.

This episode was made possible thanks to the support of Politeia, a Ukrainian NGO dedicated to preparing a new generation of change-makers in Ukraine.

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UkraineWorld is an English-language media about Ukraine run by Internews Ukraine

You can support UkraineWorld on https://www.patreon.com/c/ukraineworld

We rely on crowdfunding to continue our work.

You can also support our regular trips to the frontlines, where we provide support to both soldiers (cars) and civilians (books): PayPal, [email protected]

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CONTENTS:

00:00 - Intro: Niall Ferguson, a renowned British American historian and author of numerous books.

01:58 - Why does historian Niall Ferguson keep coming back to Kyiv, and what value does he find here?

04:06 - Does the war in Ukraine truly hold a global meaning?

10:01 - Was the British Empire good or bad for the world?

12:17 - What's the difference between a 'liberal' empire and an 'illiberal' one?

19:30 - Does the European Union find a balance between the Empire and the Nation-State?

26:59 - Can Ukraine become an 'antifragile' state?

28:48 - Is being threatened by a 'big bad neighbor' the key to becoming an innovative society?

31:07 - How did the last decade of Russian aggression ultimately lead to the birth of the Ukrainian nation?