In this episode of Night Owls, John Ellis and Joe Klein sit down with retired Lieutenant General Michael Fenzel for a discussion about war, from Desert Storm to Afghanistan and Iraq to what we now call Gulf War 3. Fenzel's career in the military was shaped by war’s evolution and its enduring unpredictability. The conversation addresses Iran’s military calculus, the growing dominance of proxy warfare, and why today’s battlefields extend from the Strait of Hormuz to outer space. Along the way, Fenzel offers candid assessments of leadership, fragile ceasefires, and the limits of diplomacy in an age of permanent tension. About war, he says, there is one central truth: the battle plan is the first casualty.

Hosted by John Ellis and Joe Klein

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Produced by Dale Eisinger