No One Dies from Divorce

Erin Levine is disrupting the legal industry with her online divorce support platform, Hello Divorce. Join us for a discussion about the lack of access to justice that currently exists and what we’re both trying to do to solve it.

Erin’s current projects include raising her two daughters, Zoe and Mia, along with managing the national roll out of Hello Divorce’s products and services. You can find her on social media @hellodivorce.

Both Jill and Erin have similar goals in closing the access to justice gap for people trying to get divorced. They felt stuck because they could only help the one on a day-to-day basis with their clients. We were both frustrated with how expensive getting divorced was, and how hard it was for normal people to navigate the legalities of divorce and get quality divorce documents drafted.

80% of divorces in the US have at least 1 party who does not have an attorney. They are trying to navigate one of the most complex contracts we will ever enter into—a marriage contract. Divorce decrees are one of the most complicated legal documents, so to do that alone is unfathomable.

Let’s change the conversation around divorce. No one gets married thinking they will get divorced, but it can also be exactly what we need to move forward. We don’t need to shy around the word or topic of divorce.

A big issue we’ve faced as divorce attorneys is fixing bad decrees. When people try to create their own with no divorce experience or legal background, or are following bad or general advice from the internet, you often end up with a bad divorce decree that won’t be able to be correctly interpreted down the road when issues arise. Erin has created an online platform and structure for people to get the help and support they need to get through the legalities of divorce. Jill has created the technology for quality divorce decrees to be drafted, based on your circumstances. So we’re trying to help people get quality divorce decrees, without the expensive retained attorney, in the first place so you don’t have to go to court later.

Law is one of the last industries to be disrupted by technology. We know what the client needs, so why wouldn’t we as attorneys embrace technology and create quality ways for people to get quality divorce decrees. We still recommend consulting with an attorney initially. But then you can go do it yourself using some new tools like Hello Divorce and SimpleEnding. There are options! Not everyone needs to retain a lawyer. 

Divorce forms are in legalese and complicated. A lot of online services or resources out there aren’t actually helping you fill those out but just letting you download blank forms or auto-generating blanket forms. If you try to take those general or poorly written decrees to court later on when you’re trying to get your ex to follow something, the court won’t be able to help you because the language is too ambiguous or broad. We’re trying to provide a more quality alternative that is specific and uses attorney experience and language so that the court can actually help you get sanctions on your ex or get orders to be carried out legally. And it’s much less expensive than retaining an attorney.

Laws are different in each state. So you have to work with an attorney in your specific state, or the technology has to work for each individual state. You need help understanding the forms and wording but also the local laws and procedures. 

There’s been exciting strides the past few years in legal technology, but we’re probably still years or decades away from where we need to go. The system has been built to protect attorneys’ careers and ability to earn money instead of focusing on the needs of the consumer. Consumers are pushing for change. Billable hours don’t work for the majority of cases.

I’m diving into the legal details we know about Kelly Clarkson’s divorce, sprinkled in with some juicy speculation and hearsay! Join me and my fellow family law attorney, Luke Shaw, as we discuss potential outcomes for Kelly and Brandon, and what we can learn from celebrity splits.

Dr. Abby Medcalf, psychologist, author, podcaster, and speaker, teaches us how to build relationship resilience. By depositing daily microconnections with our spouse in the bank, we will never overdraft when we need to make withdrawals. Because, after all, relationships aren’t built in a day; they are built daily.

Show Notes:

Dr. Abby Medcalf is a New Yorker, relationship maven, psychologist, author, podcast host (“Relationships Made Easy”), and TedX speaker who helps people think differently so they can create connection, ease, and joy in their relationships, especially the one with yourself. Unique background in business and consulting, she brings a fresh, effective, perspective to life’s struggles using humor and her direct, no-nonsense style. With over 30 years of experience, Abby is a recognized authority and sought after speaker at organizations such as Google, Apple, AT&T, Kaiser, PG&E, American Airlines, and Chevron. She has been a featured expert on CBS and ABC News, and a contributor on Huffpost, Women’s Health, and Bustle.

Most couples are good at making the big decisions together (where to send kids to school, job changes, etc.). It’s the daily microconnections that is where the meat of the sandwich is. You need someone on a daily basis who is vulnerable, connected, there WITH YOU. Like getting physically fit, you have to do more than the 1x/week personal training session. Date nights are not enough. Couples therapy is not enough. 

Can’t let the cracks in your relationship become the grand canyon. Break it down. When your spouse gets home, stop what you’re doing and greet them and be excited to see them. Kisses that last longer than 6 seconds. Pay attention in small moments. Microconnections are money in the bank. So the times you need to make a withdrawal, you have the money there. Have to build relationship resilience so you don’t overdraw.

When you’re waiting, being conditional, or only putting in half the effort, you have unrealistic expectations for your partner or what you deserve. You don’t want to get taken advantage of. That’s your fear talking. Don’t put in 150% (that’s codependency). Just need to put in your full love. Full love takes nothing from you. Look at the relationship with a lens of love and respect. Even if you don’t feel your spouse is contributing anything, you have to think that they are doing the best they can with the tools they have. Don’t need to worry about being taken advantage of; this is the person you’ve chosen to spend your life with. If this relationship isn’t meant to be, you’ll know over time.

Divorce isn’t a failed marriage. Love and honor your ex as part of your individual journey and life. You got amazing kids and life experiences through that “failed marriage,” so that’s not a failure.

The number one reason relationships fail is competition, not lack of communication. Competition causes the poor communication. You have to be on the same team. Can’t have the mentality that if your spouse gets more, you get less, because then you don’t want your spouse to win. Any relationship is a shared resource. If your partner is winning, that’s more for your battery in your relationship. If your partner is drained, that’s draining the battery of your relationship. The team wants to win. You add external resources like hiring a house cleaner; it doesn’t have to be “who’s the more burned out of the two of us.” You can also subtract things off both your plates. E.g.: Do we really need Sophie to learn a language and take an instrument and be in 2 sports? She needs 2 parents who are happy and calm and loving more. Slow down and stop rushing your kids.

It’s our 10th episode, and my guest is Dr. Ryan Coil, who happens to be my husband! I talk about our almost-divorce in my book No One Dies from Divorce, and now Ryan is here to give his side of the story! Join us as we tell stories about our marriage, our almost divorce, and the stories we tell ourselves about our spouse.

Ryan is a medical doctor and a hospitalist in SLC. When we met, Ryan was in the financial world and making a lot of money, working a big hedge fund, travelling, and studying to take the CFA, going to cool events, etc. A year into our marriage, Ryan decided he wanted to do something else with his life because he didn’t relate to the way people manipulated and took advantage of people. 11 years later! He finished. Now he’s the heartthrob of the little old ladies at the hospital. 

In 2012, Ryan was in his first year of medical school, I was working crazy hours at a big law firm, and we had just had our 2nd child. We weren’t giving time and attention to the relationship and weren’t doing any personal self-care. Ryan remembers feeling lonely and isolated and disconnected. Lost sight of the positives of a relationship. Jill thought if she ignored it, the problems would go away. This was about 2 years before Ryan finally said he was done. He moved out the next day. They were separated for a couple of months. Ryan lived in an unfinished apartment at his mom’s. Was still in med school, stayed out late, binged a lot of TV and was very lonely. Had some good conversations with his mom about how the grass isn’t always greener on the other side. It’s usually necessary to look within to fix your relationship.

We both decided we were going to put the work into ourselves. Needed to develop our personal lives and have our own friends and have me time. We took self-improvement courses and did therapy. We each do our own laundry and we each are allowed to keep our side of the bedroom as clean or messy as we want.

When we were in couples’ therapy, we were assigned to read “Rising Strong” by Brene Brown. I’m a pro at making up stories in my head about what others are thinking. This makes it feel like there are actually 3 people in our marital arguments: Jill as Jill, Ryan as Ryan, and Jill as what she THINKS Ryan is arguing about. This makes effective arguing and communication difficult.

Ryan was the one who encouraged me to open my own law firm. He was there for every moment of those early scary times. I was pregnant with our third child, and Ryan was finishing medical school and trying to find his residency. He got his residency at University of Utah and Jill built CoilLaw in Sandy.

Listen to the full episode as Ryan answers the questions submitted by our Instagram followers!

Today we’re talking about how the legal field affects the LGBTQIA+ community, and what we can do to better advocate for this community going forward, professionally and personally. My guest is Jess Couser, a fellow Utah family law attorney. She identifies as bisexual and works hard to represent other members in the LGBTQ community.

Show Notes:

Jessica (Jess) Couser practices law in areas of custody, divorce, parentage, enforcement, child support, adoption, protective orders, guardianship, LGBTQ law, and more. She and her cofounder, Laura Hansen, founded Just Law in 2010 (Millcreek and downtown SLC, Utah, offices), with the goal of providing clients excellent, ethical, and family-focused legal representation. Jess believes that family law matters require legal skill and strategy, but that they also require compassion, creativity, and fortitude. Family law attorneys should have specific knowledge of child development, trauma, communication and coping mechanisms, and they should be prepared to advocate for and educate every client on the legal and practical matters they may be facing. 

Jess believes the biggest challenge the LGBTQ+ community probably faces today is the mainstream political platforms and figures that are still comfortable advocating to reverse the Obergefell V Hodges supreme court case (legality of same-sex marriage), which would affect families in the queer community. 

Also issues of transgender laws for individuals and their parents and children, and issues of family planning for same-sex couples.

“Verification of appropriate treatment by a medical provider” is the verbiage the Utah Supreme Court gave for what is needed before granting the gender marker change on birth certificates. This just means the individual has consulted with a medical provider and that provider agrees the transition treatment is appropriate.

Both surrogacy and adoption required being single or in a heterosexual marriage in Utah before 2015.

How can we all be better allies?

1. Ask questions. People are usually willing to have honest communication when you are open.
2. Language is important and impacts who you’re communicating with, but not so important you shouldn’t feel like you can’t ask if you don’t know.
3. Don’t let your own insecurities keep you from being kind to others.

As part of a new side series on the podcast, I will be discussing celebrity divorces and other legal issues in the news. Today I’m discussing the #FreeBritney movement and conservatorships with fellow family law attorney Corttany Brooks. Let the celebrity gossip and controversy begin!

For Britney, It started as a temporary, emergency conservatorship in February 2008. She checked herself into a psychiatric hospital and it has been reported that she had gone for 5 days straight without sleep before she was admitted. Lack of sleep can cause even the most mentally healthy person to have a breakdown. Remember the scene in 2008. The paparazzi were constantly in her face and trying to provoke her because they could get $1 million dollars for one of these “crazed” photos of Britney. This was right at the time she was going through her divorce, and her husband was trying to get full custody of their children--she had 2 young children. Divorce is literally one of the hardest and most personal things you can go through in life, and she was having to be hounded constantly by reporters and photographers.

She probably had postpartum depression, undiagnosed anxiety and depression, but she wasn’t getting any help or support and was just labeled “crazy.”

A conservatorship, aka a guardianship, is a legal mechanism set up for those unable to manage their affairs, and can be set up over the body and/or over the estate (financial). It’s most common for a family member (usually parents) to be appointed to conservator. Temporary guardianships can be fairly long-term. They usually continue on until the conservatee chooses to challenge it by filing a motion to remove it and then it’s removed, unless the conservator doesn’t agree, and then the burden of proof is on the conservator to make a case for why the conservatee may not be able to oversee their physical/financial life still.

So what happened here in Britney’s case when the Judge ruled in October 2008 for the conservatorship to be made permanent? We don’t know exactly, but there would have been 2 possibilities when the court was determining whether the temporary conservatorship would end, or become a permanent conservatorship (listen to episode for full details)

Why is Britney Spears, someone worth over $60 million, who can work and provide for herself and others, on a permanent conservatorship? She has been open to keeping some sort of management over her finances, but she is seeking to abolish the part over her body. 

Most cases of permanent physical conservatorships are put in place when a person is so physically unable to take care of themselves that they need someone advocating for them as far as medical procedures and health for the unforseeable future. People who have been cripled in accidents or were born with severe medical conditions. For Britney Spears to have a permanent conservatorship over her body just doesn’t make legal sense and doesn’t seem to have precedent and is concerning if this becomes the precedent. Why aren’t there limits on lengths of conservatorships, especially considering how many Americans suffer with depression and anxiety. 

Her driver’s license had been taken away (which just got reinstated), she couldn’t choose or change her own therapists, she couldn’t get her hair or nails done, couldn’t choose her own attorney (until just this month). She should be able to choose her own assessor as a private witness and then submit herself to these assessments and submit results to court. That is probably the best way out of this.

What are Jamie’s intentions? He is being paid over $200,000/year just for being her conservator. There is conflict of interest here. Britney’s money pays for her attorney and his attorney. 

Relationships take work and continually evolve. There’s only 6 or so principles you need to know to be successful in relationships, but most of us are just in survival, day-to-day mode and never learn these. Dr. Matt Townsend helps us break down key strategies for conflict resolution and developing more fulfilling relationships.

One of the most frequent causes of divorce is disagreements or secrecy around the marital finances. With 30 years in the financial industry, Bill Sanders teaches us tips to protect and grow our wealth while going through a divorce. 

While many of us may be better together, some of us can actually become better apart. This week, Jill interviews Gabrielle Hartley - attorney, mediator, and author of Better Apart, which radically reframes the way couples experience, execute, and recover from when “for better or worse” is no longer an option, and helps you find the road to a new mindset and better life. 

One of the most Googled questions about divorce is, “What does the Bible say about divorce?” Because Marco Brown and I both practice family law in such a highly populated Christian state, we get this question a lot. Join us as we unpack what Jesus said about divorce, and some context for this hotly debated issue.