In this Institute of Economic Affairs podcast, IEA Executive Director Tom Clougherty interviews Professor Simon Johnson, 2024 Nobel Prize winner in Economics from MIT. The conversation explores Johnson's groundbreaking research on extractive versus inclusive institutions and how colonial mortality rates shaped economic development patterns that persist today. Johnson explains how European settlers' different experiences with disease in various colonies led to fundamentally different institutional structures - from the inclusive property rights systems established in North America to the extractive frameworks left behind in West Africa and the Caribbean.

The discussion examines how these institutional differences became supercharged during the Industrial Revolution, enabling countries with inclusive institutions to industrialise rapidly while others lagged behind. Johnson draws on his family's Sheffield manufacturing background to illustrate how rule of law and property rights protection enabled Britain's industrial middle class to flourish. They also address why bad institutions persist despite our understanding of their harmful effects, with Johnson arguing that powerful elites often benefit from extractive systems and resist changes that would broaden economic opportunity.

The interview concludes with Johnson's concerns about institutional degradation in modern America, the risks of AI oligopoly creating new forms of central planning, and Europe's economic stagnation. Johnson advocates for entrepreneurship, competition, and decentralised innovation while warning against both technological monism and fiscal irresponsibility. He calls for a return to fiscal conservatism and emphasises the importance of inclusive institutions that empower entrepreneurs and support shared prosperity rather than concentrated wealth extraction.

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